25. ENGIRUNTHO AZHAIKKUM EN GEETHAM

G Raghavan,
Whether there was `musical influence' by Hindi or not during the pre-IR days / post-IR days cannot be commented by me (which is for musical pundits to analyze and conclude, obviously).

However, as someone who closely followed the listening trends / cultural trends of 70's & 80's (from real grass root levels -especially in small villages and small towns...big cities could have been even more polarised towards north/foreign music), I can vouch for the sea change from the immediate period pre-IR-entry and after, toward TFM...(I'm not referring to the 60's but mid / late 70's)

Pre-IR-entry : Those with gramaphone players in their home collected mostly `Hindi LP records' or `western' while TFM was reserved for commercial `sound-set' people who organized the noise for marriages and such functions (and invariably stuck to MGR-Sivaji songs). The `educated' and `elite' found pride in telling `I don't listen to TFM stuff...me only `vellai panni' (jocular reference for a famous hindi MD) etc.'.

Post-IR-entry : Though the 45 RPM continued for a while in TFM, it was fast getting replaced with the 33 1/3 RPM and IR's music was hot - not only with the `sound-set' noise makers with horn speakers, but also with those who snob around with their own musical systems...then with compact cassette becoming popular in the early 80's (with the burma bazar panasonics, ofcourse:-)), initially it was recording from radio broadcasts but later the recording centers that became very popular, all to make TFM-available-on-demand.

Certain hindi songs like qurbani were ofcourse very popular in TN despite IR's musical feasts, but it was no longer considered `elite-taste', but just another variety...

I must humbly submit, however, that those with a liking for anything remotely Hindi continued to listen to Hindi songs into early and mid eighties, even after the advent and subsequent popularity of Ilayaraja. At college these admirers invariably had Hindi as the language subject. At the mass level, IR certainly made heavy inroads, but Hindi was never popular with those masses to begin with. It is inconceivable that IR, whose numbers were largely folk to begin with, would almost overnight change the tastes of the so-called "elite" listeners. The change, if at all any, would have been slow and over a large period of time.

Kiru:

Azhagi song trivia is not about the lyrics. It's about the prelude.

Ragavan:

I think, Manisekaran is writing from the insider perspective. The songs of the period might not truly reflect the insider buzz of that time and I doubt he is referring to MSV or KVM.

Eden:

Very good points.

Raaja not only created a trend but he took the baton from MSV and "saved" TFM with his powerful music.

Ragavan,

Thank you so much for your comments. Perhaps I should have made things clear. That Hindi tunes were popular just before IR's entry was a statement made by Panju Arunasalam- who has been deeply immersed in song writing.

Yes,I have the video tape of MSV in a program called Thirayum Isayum which he himself directed. In that program, he even says that he initially refused to compose for Naalai Namathe on the fear that he may be influenced by Yadon Ki Barat. But he went ahead to give tunes which were original. We do appreciate his stand.

Lioni from Dindigul has stated in a few of his programs that IR chased hindi influence beyond the borders of Tamilnaadu.

Next, Panju even made a bolder statement to say that the reason why he was looking for new talents (IR) was because of the degeneration in the Tamil Film music. That would be a direct blow on MSV/ KVM. Radio Singapore, as early as 1972, in a special program said that MSV's music was already on the decline. The station quoted the film Raman Ethanai Ramanadi. But I thought the songs there were good- at least Ammadi ponnukku Thanga Manasu and Sithirai Maatham Powrnami Neram.

I am only providing the good side of Ilayaraja- firstly on the request of the IR fans, and secondly IR has already been hit hard by his bashers. I wanted to take a middle path. Kindly look at the song Nallavarkellaam.Reservations were expressed, and I left it to the readers to decide the style I ought to follow. By and large they wanted me to write on the good side alone. But I am equally capable of revealing more and more of highly explosive news, information and facts that would create tsunami tidal waves. That was never the purpose. We are discussing IR's music, and not the man.

Thanks for calling me a knowledgeable person on TFM. But I have always said that I am not a knowledgeable person. Kindly look at the mistakes, nay blunders I have made, and how I have been corrected by more knowledgeable persons.

This series in not any attempt to satisfy any reader. I write my observations and opinions without fear or favour. Simply sorry that digestion is left to the readers. I still stand by my views, and would continue to do so. Even the last sentence in my recent posting says that readers may agree or disagree with my views. That is the freedom that readers ought to be given. Let me enjoy my freedom as a writer.

I made a statment to say that the song Engiruntho Azhaikum En Geetham was the best to be sung by Northerners. But many are differing, and feel that Chitra or SJ would have been a better choice. It is this disagreement that makes the discussion lively and makes me happy.

You need to be sincerely thanked for standing by your views. It is the clash of opinions (not emaotions) that brings out the spark of truth. You are enriching the discussions.

Anbudan,
Manisekaran

Madhanraj,

As I was watching the movie Ponnu OOrukku Pudhusu, I had a feeling that Ilayaraja would ahve returned to his native village to entertain the villagers with his songs. You have confirmed my thoughts.t is a case of telepathy. Your posting is first time and first hand information for me. I am still learning.



Are you able to confirm if the village shown in the film ponnu oorukku Pudhusu is the actual Pannaipuram? I want to visit the village in my next visit to Tamilnadu.


Nanriyudan
Manisekaran

I think MSV set the lyrics to tune most of the time. This way he was constrained or could give music only to the sandhams of the favored/limitied lyricists. Fortunately, there were talented lyricists who gave more meaningful words.
In contrast, IR most of the times, gives out the tune first. This way he dictates the sandhams. When ARR came, some discerning listeners appreciated the injection of new sandhams in film music. So this probably is one technical reason for the 'rejuvenation' of the film music industry, apart from more use of the folk or western classical idioms. But I am just speculating. Other, more knowledgeable posters can chime in.

In the title credits of the movie "Karakattakaaran" in one of the frames, Ilayaraja will be shown sitting beside a hut in a state of thinking.

In my wild guess that should be his home in Pannaipuram. The movie being produced by Gangai Amaran is the strong clue in my guess. The title credits of the movie will be shown in a different fashion considering the movie came out in 1989 and Gangai Amaran would have loved to show himself and Ilayaraja with their rural backgrounds when their respective title credits are displayed.

Not sure if someone can conform this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Music4Ever

On the other hand, MSV used a couple of Hindi numbers for his tamil songs. One was Irandu kaigal Naanganal in Tirisoolam which clearly reminds a number from the North Indian original movie. The second one was Sambo sivasambo in NinaithalE inikkum (from the hindi number Mehabooba mehabooba).

It is surprising that MSV discouraged using Hindi tunes.

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Hi, Even there are examples with IR, (Nallaverkellam and Kanavu Kaanum Vaazhkai ), and it doenst mean IR didnt discourage hindi tune reusage. Exceptions cant be the examples. :-)
regards,
G.Ragavan

Dear Brothers Music4ever and Ragavan,

Let me see if I can make it clearer still. I was not discussing about Tamil MDs copying from Hindi tunes per se. I was trying to mention about the strong craze for Hindi songs. All of us may remember Bobby, Aa Gale Lag Jaa, Aap Ki Kasam and Yaadon Ki Barat that came just before Raja was about to enter the industry. I msyelf had seen these movies a couple of times. They were instant hits in Malaysia. Sholay was deliberately delayed by the government of Malaysia as even the local Malay people were composing from Hindi tunes. Such was the impact and craze in my country. All I intended to say was that Ilayaraja had provided good music and substitued the craze for Hindi songs with that of Tamil songs. It is an open secret that when IR was dominating in the south, the north did not have many great movies with great songs.

I did not mention the names of MSV/ KVM or any other MDs copying from Hindi tunes. It was the craze I was trying to say. I feel music is universal and nothing harm in copying from foreigners so long as it serves its purpose of entertaining us.

I also believe copying would go on forever.

Some quick examples:-

1971- Justice Visvanathan- Kan Vazhiye- Vedha
1971- Arunothayam- Enga Veettu Thanga Theril-almost the tune of the Aradhana song Gungunare -KVM
1972 Kanimuthu Pappa- Raathayin Nejname- Sharmilee song
1972- Nalla Neram - Tick Tick - almost the tune of the Hathi Mere Saathi song-KVM
1975- Uthaman- Kelai magane- Aye Mere Beti- Aa Gale Lag Jaa song -KVM

During IR's period copying continued. Ore Jeevan from Neeya (1979) and of course Vennilla Thanga Thattu etc.

There had been exchange of tunes from both sides.

It is a fact, as brother Ragavan has pointed out, that MSV was very firm in not following Hindi tunes. Just look at all the Sujata Cine arts Productions of Balaji, and later Naalai Namathe and even Sivagamiyin Selvan. MSV too has some exceptions as pointed out by Music4ever. Same goes for Ilayaraja, as in the case of Neengal Kettavai.


Thanks to Music4ever and Ragavan for the stimulating thoughts and postings.

I personally feel that copying may go on forever. So I was talking of craze for Hindi songs. If I have given the wrong signals, then I must apologise. Very sorry. Really sorry to everyone.

Music4ever and Ragavan,
Can I, with your permission, move on to the next song?

Manisekaran

HAathi meri saathi was produced after the hit of nalla neram
So tamil should be the original.