Understanding "I" - Vedanta

[Rohit]

What sort of deluded state are you in Rohit?"

The only, please read again - the only - deluded state I undergo is to hope that one day my dear friend Pradheep will talk some sense. But every time I read his unstable and oscillating thoughts about the created, creation and creator - known, knowing and knower - thought, thinking and thinker - subject observer, image projection and image object - awareness and consciousness - reflection/image, observing/observation and object of reflection - reflecting surface/object becomimng observer of reflection as well as object reflected - Vedanta, perceptions, thoughts, awareness, consciousness, judgement and conclusion , they all soon become the dead pieces of your thoughts - awareness, reflected by his consciousness etc. and soon turns into his delusions of being "in the presesnt".

While writing the critical analysis of "in the present" above, I happily hoped/thought that this time my dear friend Pradheep would definitely understand that whatever he writes about anything, would soon become yet more dead pieces of his thoughts as soon as he finished writing about it. What he intends to project as a subject, soon becomes an object of inquiry to a subject that no longer remains the same. He miserably fails to understand and realise the fact that he can never finish writing about the literal present, he can only write about what he thought about the presesnt a while ago and never about the literal present. Also he miserablly fails to realise that what have already become the dead piece of his thoughts, cannot become "in the present" when others read them after a time delay "dT" on this forum-hub as they have already become the past - born out of Pradheep's dead pieces of thoughts. And it likely that some may not even remain, so-believed by our dear friend Pradheep as being "in the presesnt", to read his persistent delusions of being "in the presesnt".

As I said earlier, no amount of wishful and heedless thoughts or the extremes of absurd desires can resolve the transcendental paradox of time delay "dT".

My dear friend Pradheep, you have yet again, successfully broken my delusion - that one day, you would talk some sense - by posting your above wishful and heedless thoughts, accompanied by the extremes of absurd desire that your dead thoughts would still become "in the present" when "I" read them, without going the sequence in time T.

Well done, Pradheep, I am really pleased and thankful to you that you are very busy in nullifying all my delusions about my hopes and thoughts about a potential for some improvement in your level of understanding of everything, which now also includes time T and the time delay "dT"

[pradheep]

Dear rohit
As Usual you find a clever of avoiding a discussion of facts by just attacking me.

When you have your mind clear please analyse the fact that awareness is not a thought, but all thoughts are arise in awareness. Since you cannot fail to grasp awareness, at least understand that "present" as a concept of time is a thought and but present (awareness) is not a thought.

Rohit you failure to grasp this is because you do not have practical knowledge and never practiced anything. Even Buddhist teaching to you is mere words from a book and you have never experienced what Buddha taught. Buddha has taught mind watching
meditation. Have you ever done that. Do not say yes by merely reading a book on buddhist meditation, but practice it and then write about it through your own experience.

Though mind watching you will understand what I mean about awareness and the "present".

Till then Rohit all that I write will look only absurd to you, like the church who felt the absurdity in what copernicus, galelio and others taught.

[Rohit]

please analyse the fact that awareness is not a thought, but all thoughts are arise in awareness.

If you care to read and analyse your own statements, my dear friend, you cannot fail to realise that everything you wrote about "I", awareness, consciousness, reflections, thoughts etc. are nothing but the thoughts about them born out of your own, isolated, internal experiences, the entire process which unarguably involves "dT" . It is hardly difficult to conceive a situation that you keep repeating all that is in your above statements, only until a time "T"comes when you cease to do so, due to some easily conceivable factual reasons, precisely right in the middle of your last repeatation and the very next moment, everything you intended to believe about "I", awareness, consciousness and the association of being "in the presesnt" ends-up utterly falsified. Only nothing comes out from you, which precisely reflects your last moment "in the present".

What you intend to project as a subject, soon becomes an object of inquiry to another subject that no longer remains the same.

I hope you will not turn my hopes into delusions again by not understanding the above difference.

[pradheep]

Dear Rohit
How many times I had explained you that thoughts, emotions,feelings etc arise due tothe neuronal firing , but not consciousness. You are saying everything including consciosuness is generated by brain. My defintion of consciousness is diffferent from what modern scientists say. I say that is awareness which is equal to consciousness as per defintion of modern scientists, which is a brain phenomenon.

It is like you telling that computer words , figures, photos' colors, sounds all are generated in the computer. Of course you are right, but electricity which runs the computer is not generated in the computer. Same way all that we are aware of the sound, light, thoughts , awareness are all brain phenomenon, but not consciousness.

Modern science is struggling to understand this consciousness but can never find as an object. The moment it is objectified the observer, the observed and the observation mergesinto one (Advaita).

Rohit you will keep on disucssing with your bookish knowledge. If you want to understand what I am telling and really understand what Buddha told about "nothingness" you have to use his technique.

Please rohit do techniques like mind watching, which will helpyou tounderstand that you can objectify your self and that is not a brain phenomenon. This is the greatest secret of this universe. it is the greast mystery.This is the greatest mystery that indian scientists-rishi's discovered. This is calledself discovery.

Rohit what I talk will be greek and latin to you unless you practice it. Without practice no one can understand it. Information from books will not help.

There is a seemingly short cut for this, that youalways write about hallucintaing drugs. Even some Indian tantrics try, hallucinating drugs. Hallucintating drugs are used by tantrics to numb the mind and they think that in that numbness they can be witness the mind. Use of drugs to know consciosuness is like checking for electricity by putting your finger in an electric socket.


But the correct way is to watch the mind through practice. For this the mind should be avialble under your control. This is what dalai lama or Buddha said as mind purification.


Without the mind watching you arenot not watching the mind , you think you are the mind itself.

My dear Rohit, purify your mind and then your mind will be under you control and you can witness your own mind and then know what is awareness and finally Consciousness.

So stop reading and put into practice whatever you read in your favorite buddhist scriptures and then you will see what I write make sense. Till then you will be under the whirlpool of your own mind and call me a deluded person.

[Rohit]

If you are really keen to understand your own misunderstandings on Vedanta, I suggest you to think of all possible combinations or worldviews under which "I" could be experienced, and then ask yourself a question, is that experience part of your perception, within your body or not? Is there any way that you can experience "I" without your body or not?

If you can remember, I have asked you much more than the above, but you have completely avoided answering any of them and just responded to the above by stating:

I can have the thought of "I" with the perception of the body and without also. In dreaming state I dont have the perception or feeling of this body lying ona bed. Still I have an I thought. So even without a body I can have "I".

Yes without having the perception of the body I can have the feeling of "I" in deep sleep. But is the "I" that I experience in waking state, dream state and deep sleep state are different.

Please read the use of words "thought", "feeling" and "experience" in your own replies. Also note that you have stated the occurrence of thought of "I" without the perception of body.

And below is what you are writing now:

thoughts, emotions, feelings etc. arise due tothe neuronal firing.

Now you are clearly contradicting and falsifying your own above quoted statements by stating that thoughts, emotions, feelings etc. arise due to the neurones firing in the brain

When you don't even know what you are thinking, feeling, experiencing and then writing heedlessly; what kind of sense do you think and believe you are writing or talking, my friend?

Please try to understand the fact that the brain is located in the head and both the head - along with the eyes, ears, nose, mouth/speech etc. sense organs - and the brain are vital organs of the body; not seeing or having the perception of body, isn't and cannot be the same as without body. Only your mind plays tricks with you and makes you think, feel, experience and then believe that there is no body. If you really believe all these tricks played by your mind/brain, you can believe anything when your mind plays even cleverer tricks with you under the influence of psychotic drugs or similar psychotic mental conditions, as you have just mentioned.

Previously you even have denied the fact, which I repeated 1000s of times elsewhere in the forum-hub that thoughts are a neurological phenomenon in the brain. Irrespective of what you think and believe powers your thoughts, you have clearly demonstrated the fact that your mind/brain is already playing consequential and detrimental tricks on you and made you think and believe that you don't have a body when you are asleep.

Anyway, I am glad that you have cleared one of the many serious misunderstandings you previously had and now you are on the right track by accepting the fact that thoughts are the neurological activities in the brain, powered by energy E = hf or E = mc^2. If you are suggesting, it is this energy E, which is obviously dumb, changeable, transformable, mutable, but conserved within the entire time-space contour, all pervading, uncaused cause of everything etc. etc. that you are referring as the "Self", I have no argument whatsoever against that and all your misunderstandings have a good chance to disappear into nothing.

However, though you have used Sun's energy E, generated by violently active process of nuclear fission, and which takes some 7 minutes to reach the earth, as an analogy in your article, if at all it ("I/Self") is something different from energy E, then you definitely have even serious neurological problems in your brain, the source of all your remaining misunderstandings that, somehow, must be cleared and I am more than happy to help you further to clear all your remaining misunderstandings.

As I have clearly given you the evidence and explanation how an easily conceivable event, falsifies your entire belief when you cease to repeat all that is in your above statements and only nothing comes out from you - precisely at the time "T", falsifying your entire belief and the thought of being "in the present". And how what you intend to project as subject, soon becomes an object of inquiry to another subject that no longer remains the same.

Please refer to your own analogy of the Sun and the rest as it is in your article and then clearly answer the following questions:

1) Who is asking the question "Who Am I" and to whom?
2) Who is supposed to find the answer and reply to whom?
3) Who is the subject and who or what is the object?
4) Why do you have to show the gross body in your diagrams to realise "I/Self"?

More questions to follow

Pradheep, don't just stay stuck and keep seeking refuge in Buddhism. Please move forward with your own beliefs rather than keep referring to Buddhism as, this tendency is neither going to clear your obvious and serious misunderstandings and confusions on Buddhism nor those on Advaita/Vedanta.

So, my dear friend, have some courage and be brave to accept and acknowledge your errors, mistakes, misunderstandings and whatever weaknesses that hinder you from getting out of the never-ending vicious cycle that you are in.

Good Luck!

[pradheep]

I have asked you much more than the above, but you have completely avoided answering any of them

Dear Rohit
I have always answered your questions but if you cannot understand, what can i do. i can only use different examples to make you understand the message.

Now you are clearly contradicting and falsifying your own above quoted statements

I am not contradicting. You fail to understand that consciousness is different from awareness. Awareness is a phenomenon of the neuronal activity and not consciousness.

have used Sun's energy E, generated by violently active process of nuclear fission, and which takes some 7 minutes to reach the earth, as an analogy in your article, if at all it ("I/Self") is something different from energy E

You have a serious problem in understanding an analogy. In the article I have used Sun's energy and the formation of a river to explain awareness and consciousness. You ahve taken it literally and have ended up with the problem as usual. Many times I have quoted the sufi's proverb " An idiot looks at the finger that points the moon". You look at the finger and not at the moon and that seriously affects your understanding.

1) Who is asking the question "Who Am I" and to whom?

you will get the answer when you ask that question when you purify your mind according to dalai lama and Buddha. To answer that the Ego ask the question. To understand what Ego means you have to undergo a process of purification of mind.

2) Who is supposed to find the answer and reply to whom?

The Ego does finds the answer and replies to the Ego itself.

3) Who is the subject and who or what is the object?

There is no subject and object. these two occurs when Ego is there. When the Ego is transcended there is only oneness.

4) Why do you have to show the gross body in your diagrams to realise "I/Self"?

when people cannot understand simple explanations I have to use diagrams to explain. Even if they cannot ....... I am comming with a simpler practical version in the month of october. Probably that may help you.

Pradheep, don't just stay stuck and keep seeking refuge in Buddhism.

Buddhism is just an off shoot of vedanta. Vedanta is the umbrealla underwhich Buddhism is a mushroom and for you that is a good umbrella.

When you understand Vedanta I will make you clear what Buddha dismissed as Atman/Brahman and what he means by nothingness.

of the never-ending vicious cycle that you are in

Probably you should keep reading whatever i wrote for a long time repeatedly to understand the message. Till then keep doing the cycle.

[Rohit]

I have asked you much more than the above, but you have completely avoided answering any of them

Dear Rohit
I have always answered your questions but if you cannot understand, what can i do. i can only use different examples to make you understand the message.

Now you are clearly contradicting and falsifying your own above quoted statements

I am not contradicting. You fail to understand that consciousness is different from awareness. Awareness is a phenomenon of the neuronal activity and not consciousness.

have used Sun's energy E, generated by violently active process of nuclear fission, and which takes some 7 minutes to reach the earth, as an analogy in your article, if at all it ("I/Self") is something different from energy E

You have a serious problem in understanding an analogy. In the article I have used Sun's energy and the formation of a river to explain awareness and consciousness. You ahve taken it literally and have ended up with the problem as usual. Many times I have quoted the sufi's proverb " An idiot looks at the finger that points the moon". You look at the finger and not at the moon and that seriously affects your understanding.

1) Who is asking the question "Who Am I" and to whom?

you will get the answer when you ask that question when you purify your mind according to dalai lama and Buddha. To answer that the Ego ask the question. To understand what Ego means you have to undergo a process of purification of mind.

2) Who is supposed to find the answer and reply to whom?

The Ego does finds the answer and replies to the Ego itself.

3) Who is the subject and who or what is the object?

There is no subject and object. these two occurs when Ego is there. When the Ego is transcended there is only oneness.

4) Why do you have to show the gross body in your diagrams to realise "I/Self"?

when people cannot understand simple explanations I have to use diagrams to explain. Even if they cannot ....... I am comming with a simpler practical version in the month of october. Probably that may help you.

Pradheep, don't just stay stuck and keep seeking refuge in Buddhism.

Buddhism is just an off shoot of vedanta. Vedanta is the umbrealla underwhich Buddhism is a mushroom and for you that is a good umbrella.

When you understand Vedanta I will make you clear what Buddha dismissed as Atman/Brahman and what he means by nothingness.

of the never-ending vicious cycle that you are in

Probably you should keep reading whatever i wrote for a long time repeatedly to understand the message. Till then keep doing the cycle.

My dear Pradheep,

For your kind information, your utter frustrations, resulting from the humiliation you felt from the exposition and uncovering of your heedless blunders, contained in the article as well as in your posts, are fully acknowledged and understood by everyone. There is no need to get astounded and go haywire about that.

If you intend to point at literally nothing, you must never point at the Sun or other objects but at your "Self". If you have nothing to point at, then don't point at all, this is very important watchword for you to grasp and understand. If all that is contained in your quoted article is just a random sequence of impertinent and irrelevant words, ideas and concepts with lots of meaningless diagrams to accompany it, bin the very article and start thinking all over again. Don't just blame people watching you randomly pointing fingers at things that are completely beyond your grasp of comprehension.

Anyway, please don't humiliate yourself further by quoting and writing randomly when you don't even know what you are thinking, feeling, and experiencing. I am really sorry to have made it crystal clear to everyone what kind of nonsense you can think, write and talk. If you really want to know something important my friend, then know this, Sufi's words for mere comfort wouldn't help you my friend, I am afraid.

Vedanta tells us that the very purpose of life on Earth is to know the Self, because that was the fundamental question that "caused" creation. There was a question that arose "Who Am I?"

Awareness is a phenomenon of the neuronal activity and not consciousness.

Neuroscientists have quite a few, modern and very precise brain-scanning equipment available to them in order to study various brain activities under various stages and conditions. The following list of equipment provides a hint of the variety or equipment available for brain scanning and imaging.

- CT or CAT (Computerised Axial Tomography)
- MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging)
- SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computerised Tomography)
- PET (Photon Emission Tomography)
- EEG (Electroencephalogram)

Neuroscientists over the globe have used various brain scans to study various activities in the brain like metabolic rates, blood-flow rates, neurological activities and various other mental activities during

- Wakefulness
- NREM Sleep (Sleep onset)
- REM Sleep (Dream State)
- Normal Sleep (NREM but Deep Sleep)
- Sleep Deprivation

What is unanimously found by neuroscientists across the globe is starling and that shatters all beliefs of unconditioned consciousness, projected by our dear friend Pradheep, who obviously found himself grossly humiliated after learning about his contradictions, which completely falsified all his beliefs and thoughts about the source of thoughts, feelings, experiences and body and body perception.

a) The activities of modulatory neurones, neurotransmitters and other chemical balance change during the above five stages.

b) Neural activities and other chemical balance are normal as expected during the wakeful state.

c) Neural activities and other chemical balance change from normal and reduce both during NREM (Sleep onset) and Sleep Deprivation states. The neural activities in the brain are more or less identical during these two states - NREM (sleep onset) and sleep deprivation states.

d) Neural activities and other chemical balance change again from reduced activities to more than normal activities during the REM Sleep.

e) Neural activities and other chemical balance surprisingly come back to normal during NREM Deep Sleep state. But the processing of sensory information is minimal simulating the pure unconditioned consciousness.

Neuroscientists find no brain state in which brain activities cease completely, unless it is a brain of the dead. The unconditioned consciousness that our friend Pradheep is talking about is nothing but the minimal activity of the brain when the brain goes in its latent or dormant state, precisely the state that our friend Pradheep is trying to associate with unconditioned consciousness to forward further his delusions on "Self".

It is not at all surprising why our dear friend Pradheep remains always stuck with his body and can't write or talk about unconditioned consciousness without the brain in his body. He always end-up with meaningless analogies that always involve objective and subjective items of the physical world. He gets completely numbed and muted when I point him the meaninglessness of his analogies that have no resemblance whatsoever to what he thinks it to be.

I think, this is more than enough to show the gobbledegook that our friend Pradheep thinks, feels, experiences, writes and posts. He can’t even remember what definitions I have asked him to provide but he still thinks and believes that he has answered all. Well, what more than this do we need to testify Pradheep's utter misunderstandings on Advaita/Vedanta?

Good Luck

[pradheep]

CT or CAT (Computerised Axial Tomography)
- MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging)
- SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computerised Tomography)
- PET (Photon Emission Tomography)
- EEG (Electroencephalogram)

Neuroscientists over the globe have used various brain scans to study various activities in the brain like metabolic rates, blood-flow rates, neurological activities and various other mental activities during

- Wakefulness
- NREM Sleep (Sleep onset)
- REM Sleep (Dream State)
- Normal Sleep (NREM but Deep Sleep)
- Sleep Deprivation

my dear Rohit
you are again and again talking about awareness which is the phenomenon of the brain and can be studied through scans and all other instruments. The unconditioned consciousness is not of the brain. For that you have to chant mani padme hum and purify your mind. Have you ever done that?. try and then reply to this post.

[Rohit]

Dear Pradheep,

Before anything, please first learn how to think, feel, experience and then learn how to write some sense. It is no good posting just gobbledegook when you have nothing left to write and when you and your beliefs are fully exposed.

Like I have proved and shown earlier, consciousness is an evolved phenomenon and what you are calling as pure unconditioned consciousness is nothing but the latent and dormant state of the same thing. The three stages used in Vedanta to describe various stages of existence and then by associating consciousness with the state experienced in deep sleep, the idea of fourth state of pure consciousness was sought. By mere imagination of the fourth stage and calling it Turiya state, the pure unconditioned consciousness was guessed, believed and then terminated into the Turiya state. Today there is no need for that imagination, science can provide plenty of scientific proofs and evidences of that fourth state, which previously was just imagined by the Vedantins as being pure consciousness due to inaccessibility to the brain's activities. The technological and scientific advances can now cross that barrier and reveal the same fourth state and beyond with enough details to shows that it is nothing but what is now identified and known as the reducing amount of latent or dormant activities of the brain. Science can now reveal not only that fourth state but even further more states where nothing whatsoever is experienced.

Unfortunately, due to persistence of serious misunderstandings and lack of will in you to accept reality, you are still heedlessly searching for a thing- pure unconditioned consciousness - that is already proven hidden in your own brain. It is very important to know that we can never be conscious or aware of what is happening in the brain, and there is a great danger of us ending-up thinking that we can think, feel, experience the “I/Self” without body while we are asleep, and then come to a false conclusion about the body, precisely the way you did. I have clearly shown how you have committed that mistake and miserably failed to take the brain activities into account in your initial posts when responding to my questions.

My friend, you can think whatever you wish and do whatever you want with your body, unless you try understanding the brain, all your search for an entity that does not exist will be in vain and only prove as a heedless attempt of self-deception that cannot be entertained for much longer.

Good Luck!

[pradheep]

Neuroscientists over the globe have used various brain scans to study various activities in the brain like metabolic rates, blood-flow rates, neurological activities and various other mental activities during

- Wakefulness
- NREM Sleep (Sleep onset)
- REM Sleep (Dream State)
- Normal Sleep (NREM but Deep Sleep)
- Sleep Deprivation

Dear Rohit
Itis veryclear you have not understood anything from the article because you have not read it clearly. In bold letter there was a cuationary note. Inspite of that you have mis-understood that and have talked about sleep states. This is one instance to highlight that you have not read it properly and as expected you have misunderstood .Let me quote fromthe article.

Important note to avoid mis-understanding

Here we have to be very clear about the three states of existence. We should not literally take that we are discussing here about dreams and deep sleep states. We literally go into these three states everyday, but the point is that, we are in these three states even in the waking state.

This causal body is like "nothingness" that you experience similar to deep sleep state. With this clarity please go ahead, otherwise it will breed only confusion.

By mere imagination of the fourth stage and calling it Turiya state,

This shows your very limited knowledge in science and also the biased nature. Meditation is being researched more vigorouslythan before. The reason is that what was considered as a witch craft shows evidences of proof. But science has to go further a lot before it can completely get to know about Cosnciosuness.

The only means for you to know is not to depend on the instruments, but use your own body. There is a procedure to know that,that millions of people have been doing , are doing and will be doing.

Rohit , your problem is that youhavenot doentheprocess and criticising it. You are like a guy denying glacier in mount everest without ever being there once.

Find the truth for your own and donot rely on no any one else. Because unlike all other truth, this is only for you, you (every individual) alone.