Islamic Invasions ! Hindus Persecutions !

[Rohit]

It doesn't.

Well, that does establishe something for you to ponder over and explore its wider and deeper implications over the whole issue and see how all these fragmented pieces of information fit together.

But we're talking about Religious Persecution. And Religious Persecution is usually committed on a person because of their religion, or what they call themselves to be.

The persecutions or genocide are never committed on religions themselves, simply because they are intangible and conceptual entities. One can never catch a religion and physically kill it. Religions do not act; it is the followers of religion who act. Therefore, it follows that the law of karma and reincarnation are only applicable to the one who acts and not to the religion.

And as far as Hinduism is concerned, it strongly asserts that no karma goes without consequences. Every consequence has its own karmic history behind it. There simply is no first cause for the karmic deeds. A true Hindu can only hope to empty his karmic account of bad karma in his present life, for any action that qualifies for bad karma, carries dire consequences. There simply is no immunity against bad karma. Therefore, whether it is a religious persecution committed on a person or genocide committed on the masses, they all are the consequences and the they all are attributable to personal or collective bad karma. That is what happened in the past, that is what is happening in the present and that is what may happen in the future if one goes by the law of karma and reincarnation.

[Rohit]

I know thay ignorance is present on this forum, because this thread prove well that most of us are not agree with each ones.

Dear Eelavar,
Perhaps you are not aware of the liar's paradox, let me tell you how a liar can create a paradox, which is not agreeable on any account.

One doesn't have to agree to a liar when the liar keeps saying that what he is telling is absolutely true and not lies.

A few more examples on disagreement:

- All living being on the planet being not realists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not idealists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not sceptics is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Jainas is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Buddhists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not believers is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Hindus is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Jews is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Christians is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Muslims is a disagreement.

And a few more examples on agreement:

- All agreeing realists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing idealists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing sceptics cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Jainas cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Buddhists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Believers cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Hindus cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Jews cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Christians cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Muslims cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance

So, neither disagreement can be the criterion for ignorance nor agreement can be the criterion for knowledge.

And as we know there is only one reality...

Knowledge for one is ignorance for others, ignorance for one is knowledge for others and the aggregate of both is cognition for all, and that is what the reality is.

So i say ignorance is present in this forum.

Not being able to grasp the extent of dichotomy surely amounts to gross ignorance.

P.S: I DO NOT CLAIM TO POSSESS THE FULL KNOWLEDGE ! BECAUSE I'M TOO AN IGNORANT, THERE IS NOTHING BAD TO ACCEPT THIS FACT...

Your confession is indeed much appreciable
However, the above statement of yours contradicts your previous statement "And as we know there is only one reality... "

[pizzalot]

I know thay ignorance is present on this forum, because this thread prove well that most of us are not agree with each ones.

Dear Eelavar,
Perhaps you are not aware of the liar's paradox, let me tell you how a liar can create a paradox, which is not agreeable on any account.

One doesn't have to agree to a liar when the liar keeps saying that what he is telling is absolutely true and not lies.

A few more examples on disagreement:

- All living being on the planet being not realists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not idealists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not sceptics is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Jainas is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Buddhists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not believers is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Hindus is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Jews is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Christians is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Muslims is a disagreement.

And a few more examples on agreement:

- All agreeing realists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing idealists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing sceptics cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Jainas cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Buddhists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Believers cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Hindus cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Jews cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Christians cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Muslims cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance

So, neither disagreement can be the criterion for ignorance nor agreement can be the criterion for knowledge.

And as we know there is only one reality...

Knowledge for one is ignorance for others, ignorance for one is knowledge for others and the aggregate of both is cognition for all, and that is what the reality is.

So i say ignorance is present in this forum.

Not being able to grasp the extent of dichotomy surely amounts to gross ignorance.

P.S: I DO NOT CLAIM TO POSSESS THE FULL KNOWLEDGE ! BECAUSE I'M TOO AN IGNORANT, THERE IS NOTHING BAD TO ACCEPT THIS FACT...

Your confession is indeed much appreciable
However, the above statement of yours contradicts your previous statement "And as we know there is only one reality... "

[pizzalot]

Somehow Eelavar seems to understood that there is Only One Truth, One Reality, One Religion, One Race, One Soul and so on.

The real problem comes when others start quoting that for their truth, their reality, their religion, their race and their soul.

Eelavar, please acknowledge the political overtones on this topic.

See Surya, though he started with the posts encrypting Hindutva ideology, had simply come-out in the open when his Hindutva burkha was attacked.

In several places you said the alleged genocide by the muslims is the greatest ever. How did you arrive at that ?

[Surya]

Dsath,

Why are you going back to the Saffron Brigade? I didn't even mention them in that post.

U said:

* we have to continually remind ourselves abt it?

* If we start on the road of intolerance and blame game then we are sure to join the other older civilizations. If not today, its bound to happen tomorrow.


So I said:

* In that case Dsath, would it be right to try to avoid discussions about Brahmin Hegemony, and Untouchability since it reminds people about it? Would it be just to avoid and try to frown upon discussions with hopes that people won't discuss them, on the Varna System, and Castiesm?

Please explain what u meant by moving forward vs Being Stuck, vs Moving Backward....If we aren't going to discuss islamic invasions, and mass murder of hindus for their religion because we should not constantly remind ourselves....shouldn't htat also apply to every part of Indian History which is unpleasant? Including Castiesm? That's all I asked. I don't see how the Saffron Brigade has anything to do with that post.

[Surya]

The persecutions or genocide are never committed on religions themselves, simply because they are intangible and conceptual entities. One can never catch a religion and physically kill it. Religions do not act; it is the followers of religion who act. Therefore, it follows that the law of karma and reincarnation are only applicable to the one who acts and not to the religion.

So u suggest that we take off "Islamic" from the title and upt in Mogul or Muslim? Would that draw the line between The religion commiting the persection and those who follow it commiting the persecution?

And as far as Hinduism is concerned, it strongly asserts that no karma goes without consequences. Every consequence has its own karmic history behind it. There simply is no first cause for the karmic deeds. A true Hindu can only hope to empty his karmic account of bad karma in his present life, for any action that qualifies for bad karma, carries dire consequences. There simply is no immunity against bad karma. Therefore, whether it is a religious persecution committed on a person or genocide committed on the masses, they all are the consequences and the they all are attributable to personal or collective bad karma. That is what happened in the past, that is what is happening in the present and that is what may happen in the future if one goes by the law of karma and reincarnation.

What are you getting at Rohit? Are you sayign that these people who had their eyes dug out bu Mogul Kinds, those were were murdered by mogul kings had it coming due to their "bad karma"?

But this thread wasn't about justifying anything, or anyone to anything or anyone. It was just supposed to be a discussion about Historical Facts.

[P_R]

But this thread wasn't about justifying anything, or anyone to anything or anyone. It was just supposed to be a discussion about Historical Facts.

Right. I think that trying to define "Hindu" and analyzing the philosophical aspects of the defintion - interesting as they may be - are peripheral to this discussion and have served to derail this thread considerably. We could start a separate thread about the definition of a Hindu, Free will vs. Karma etc.

I don't think they say anywhere that Hindus (however one chooses to define them) were the only group to be at the receiving end. This thread deals with instances in history where they happened to be at the receiving end, that is all. And we can lay bare our sources and discuss the historical accuracy of the information posted.

I didn't see any Islam bashing in the posts.And as far as the title goes we can keep changing it till we reach: "A wee little squibble between brethren" , but as long as we move forward with the discussion it's fine. But as of now I think we are stagnating. Surya,Eelavar please go on.

[kannannn]

PR, I too don't have a problem with the discussion of historical aspects. But problems creep in only when the thread takes a tone of agression against a particular community. What started of as hindu persecution in pre-independent India, branched off into attacks on Hindus today. When a discussion was offered on the cause-effect analysis of present day animosities, it was not taken. Infact, no justification for their convictions were presented, and it was openly said so. What is the use of this thread then? Debate is a two way street.

[Surya]

Debate is a two way street alright, but things only took a turn in the discussion when Hindutva was suddenly brought in bu one hubber, complelty out of the blue...

That's Absurd. That's like discussing Hitler's Mien Kamph and his theory on Aryans when talking about Slavery in the US, when initially (for about 200 years) slavery was just a pure Economical thing rather than any idea of Racial Supremacy, even though that's what it turned out to be later on.


So I think, that as long as Hindutva, or sudden misdirection of the topic to blame hindus in modern india doesn't arise, the debate will be fine.

Why that hubber brought in a Post about hindutva (Filled with Exclamation marks I might add) when talking about Mogul Kings is still a ? to me.

This thread is about Mogul Atrocities...why bring in Hindutva?

[pizzalot]

The topic was simply "Genocide Of The Hindus" . But almost everyone was discussing the agression by muslims.

No one went in to analyze who was the black sheep who arrived several thousand years before the foreigners arrived, who invited the neighboring kings to invade the host country, shared the power after they succumbed local host who had hitherto provided shelter for them. It is the very same people today who talk about Hindutva to divert the atttention of the people from analyzing this fact.

Before muslims arrived they had successfuly evoked such a response against specific people and en-slaved them for 4000 years. It is always the same pattern. To safe-guard their own status in the society they seem to do anything. If they see a state staying secular and peaceful, they would explode few bombs, walk-in Ganesh through the muslim areas, make people fight with each other so they can continue remaining in power.

They did it in the past , they are doing it in the present.

If the people did not respect them they went out and invited the foreigners. Moghuls, Muslims and British were all invitees of these people.

If there is something to learn from history it is just how to keep watch for those cunning parasites of our community who are eager the history is repeated. They plant bombs in trains and public places and blame the muslims and christians. After the ignorant public buys their commnunal ideas, they reinforce their ignorance by claiming the greatness of their vedas.

How even the vedas are allowed to be recited today when everything about it is about abusing everyonelse except themselves ?

I call the Indian Government to issue orders to ban the recitement of the vedas unless a Hindi copy is provided to the devotees who come to the temples. Let them see the greatness of these vedas to themselves. If Koran and Bible could be read by the people why not the vedas be circulated for reading by the public ? Let them follow the vedas word by word while it is recited in the temples.

Have you all frequently heard the vedas are not to be read by yourself but only heard from a guruji so he can convieniently hide the nasty ideas embedded in them? The guruji, depending on your level of education and intellect, will start talking about Atma, Paramatma and One Truth concepts so at the end of the ceremony you will get convinced that it was all from those vedas recited before you in the temples.

I encourage everyone here to read the vedas yourself and know what it is all about. The westerners who are told the greatness about these vedas, invariably everyone of them, get disillusioned when they read it themselves. The call for bloodshed and enslavement is so obvious that nothing the guruji says will render respect for the barbaric verses.