NAAN MARAI

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

NANN MARAI

Dear Friends,

I wanted to write about ‘Nannmarai’ while I deal with Indian ancient history after sometime. Since repeated lies against tamil literature & tamil traditions are spread out that they have been derived from Vedhic traditons in various threads as was done for the past 1000 years by wishful thinkers, I write here about Nannmarai.

Two logical questions we can ask.

1.Do tholkappiam payiram say Rig, Yasur, Sama, Atharvana Vedhams to specify Nannmarai?

2.Is there any need mentioning about ‘Chathur Vedhas’ which contain only prayer hyms and ritual hyms in a Grammar book meant only for Grammar ?

The answers are no & no need. Let us go back to some historical background.

All of the explanatory notes including Ilampuranar & Perasiriyar for Tholkappiam belongs to 900-1000 ACE or even later. During that time Cholas ruled almost South India with Chalukkian( Karnataka) connections. This is the peak period of Vedhic Culture.

Kalabrar-West Vadukus (Kannada) Washed out tamil land from 300 ACE to 600ACE. During 300 BCE East Vaduku -Telugus captured North East Tamil land called Thondai Mandalam. The inter complications and rivalry between these two Vadukus put an end to Kalabrar rule in TamilNadu who were jain followers.(1)

East Vadukus copied all tamilian arts & culture and created artificial Sanskrit language from Prahritham in Tamil Krantha Script since Sanskrit has no script at all. All tamil akamas translated into Sanskrit.(2)

With Chalukkian and East Vadukus influence, tamil Cholas regained power in Tanjore. Culturally they followed Vadukus. By having marital relationship (marriage) with Chalukkian ladies, Cholas became Chalukkia-Cholas.(3)

During this period thousands of Vaduku kannada Poosaris(Brahmins) & Teluku Poosaris From Godavery & Thungapaththirai river banks namely Jaththi sarman & Janga sarman heritage migrated towards Cauveri river banks of tamil Nadu and replaced tamil ‘Valluva kanikaiyan / Uchavan / Paarpan and turned as new Parpaans with Akarakarams.(4) & (5).

This is evidenced even now by their presence in and nearly 75 % of Brahmins of Cauvery banks & Palaru banks (a) SriRangapattanam of Bangalore,(b) Srirangam of Thiruchy,(c) Kumbakonam, (d) Mayiladuthurai (e) Kanchipuram have either Telugu / Kannada as their mother tongue. Traditional links among Thiruchy, Bangalore, Vijayawada Brahmins still prevails.

‘Dravidaththin Thiru vilakku’ (Dravidian lantern), Puratchi Thalaivi (Revolutionary Head), Chinthanai selvi (Great think tank)-Note : awarded by Dr. Kalaignar Mu. Karunanidhi- present Chief Minister of TamilNadu- in her ‘SuryaGandhi’ film’s 100th day celebrations where ‘Thanthai Periyar’ was also present) & Dr. Amma – the former CM of Tamil Nadu –Ms. J. Jayalitha’s family ancestry brethren & blood relations are living in these three cities. This is wonderful evidence for the above .

The migrated Poosaris copied, inverted, misinterpreted & spread the already existing tamil arts and knowledge preservation into their fold. For example, Akathumam , Sirpam, Uvaniyavu, Araniyam & Marai was the pattern existed in tamil land. But These vadukus changed This pattern squarely as Vedham, Araniyam, Upanisham, Sirpam & Akamam in opposite way (6) & (7)

New theories, new explanations for old sankam poetries were created. Lot of insertions of fake meaning made in Second Sankam Tholkappiam & Third Sankam literature. For Example, ‘Erayanar Akapporul’ Grammar (300 ACE) Talks about the rules denoting the ‘love’ between human male and female. But its explanatory note written after several centuries explains the meaning as the ‘love’ between God and human beings.(8)

We have to inspect the meaning of ‘Nannmarai’ with this background.

‘Naan’ does not mean ‘Naanku’- four always. It has other meaning also. Naan also means Thodakkam, Thotru-vai, Moolam (beginning / origin).

Naan means ‘I’ – a first person who is the beginning of any conversation / sound / word.

Nal / nalu in verbial form means, ‘Thonguthal’- ‘Hanging from a base / origin’.

‘Naandu’ / ‘Naattu’ means create a base. The phrases like ‘Kodi Naattu’, ‘Naandu Eranthan’ will give us some light in the meaning.

’Naanilam’ does not mean four lands but only means “Adi nilam”- origin of land (world).

‘Naa’ for tongue named so because it is the cause for the beginning of any word / seems to be hanging from mouth.. It also means ‘ Vazhi-way’ in which the way is the principal / basic for any lead / travel.

‘Naavai’- means Ship which is using sea way as a base. ‘Voyage’ English word from this root only.

Depending on the word that come to join, “Naal” shall change its course.

Example : Naar Chol, Naan Marai, Naal Vedham

Naal & Naan specifically denote the meaning of Base / origin (Moolam / Thodakkam)

Some Examples in Third Sankam Tamil literature :

1. “NATT-IK kolappattar Nanmai Elarayin
Katti kalaithu mena Venda”- Pazhamozhi 45.

Here, ‘Nattik kolappattar’ means a person of reputation as a base.

2. “NAAR Kathiyum Thunba Navai theerththal Venduvaan
Par Kathiyum Parpada Arainthu” - Eelaathi

Here ‘ Naar Kathi’ means ‘the root / origin of destiny’

3. “NAAL vaik Kari” ( Thirukkovayar – 55) here ‘Naal vai’ means ‘Mouth Hanging from an origin’

‘Kari’ means an animal with black colour like carbon colour – Elephant.

4. “Akaliru Visumbin NAAL Pola” ( Malai padu kadaam 100)

Here, Visumbu means sky and ‘NAAL’ means a star which is hanging in the sky-a base for star.

5. “ NAAL Aarum Aarai Nani sirithai Eppuranum
Melaru Melurai Chorinum” - Naaladiyar 383 –Porutpal 39.

Here, ‘Naal Aarum Aarai’ means ‘Thodakka vazhiyae Vazhiyaka’- ‘The beginning way as way’ and not four ways.

6.“ Malai thaama Valayudan NAATRI
Virunthupadak Kidantha Arunthozhil Arankaththu”

Here, ‘Valayudan Naatri’ means ‘Lamp hanging from base’. –Epic Silappathikaram.

7. ‘Kamba Ramayanam’ is famous among masses for its word usage.

(a) “Muzhai NAAL Aravu”- 5812

Here, ‘Naal Aravu’ means ‘Thonkum Pampu’- Snake Hanging from base.

(b)“Val Sila Thunivana Vayirukal Velippada
NAAL Sila Kudarana Nakazhvana sila” - 7992

Here, ‘NAAL sila Kudarana’- ‘Kudal Thongiyathu’ – ‘Hanging of Abdomen intestine’

(c)“Namak kadal pal yiyam NAAL Kadal
Melum Aarppa” - 8157

Here, ‘Naal Kadal Melum Aarppa’ means ‘ Adik kadal Ezhunthu Vanthathu’- Waves of base sea come top’

Many times Kamba Ramayanam uses ‘Naal Nilam’ which means ‘adi nilam’-the ‘world’.

(d) “ Nattam Vem kanal Pozhithara
NAAL NILAM Thadavi” - 514
(e) “ Thaniyan NAAL NILAM Thankiyathu
Avariku ithu Aakatho?” - 1441

Many times Kamba Ramayanam speaks about flowers which are hanging.

(f) “NAAL Nira Nalir Valli” – Hanging Alli flower - 2105

(g) “ NAAL Nira Surumbum Vandum” - Surumbu means flower - 4279

(h) “ Kombu oththana NAAL Olir Kole Vayirak
Kambak KARI Nintrathu Kandanamal”

‘Olir Kole Vayirak Kambak Kari’ means An elephant having Lighting Sphere like stomach –NAAL means hanging.

One more crucial poetry that I want to bring to the attention of readers notice from Kamba Ramayanam in which ‘Naal Marai’ presents.

“Muthia NAAL MARAI
Kozhunthu Mel padar tharak
Kolu Kombu Ayinan” - 253

Here, Naal – MARAI Kolunthu means ‘Hanging flower Marikozhunthu’. Blind Vedhic Protagonists may mean illogically & unmeaningfully even this as four Vedhas ! who knows !

Hence, Naan / Naal means ‘Moolam’ / origin / base. ‘NAAN MARAI’ means ‘Moola Marai’ and not four Vedhas.

Earlier in ‘Tamil is elder than Sanskrit’ Thread I have clearly stated verse by verse Tholkappiam ‘Marai’ does not mean Vedhas.

‘Naanmarai’ in Tholkappiam Payiram means ‘Moola Marai’ and this was “INTHIRAM’ created during second sankam literature which plunged into sea disaster. Mathematics, Astronomy & Medicine, Science & Anatomy theories were mentioned in Inthiram. Many Siddha books talks about this INTHIRAM quoting their verses. I may write about them in details in future.

There was ‘Moola marai’ in tamil and Othuvars were there. This is specified in Epic Silappathikaram as,

“VANTAMIZH MARAYORKU Vaanurai Koduththa
Thindiral Neduvel Cheralar Kandukalai,” -60

Which talks about NedunCheralathan who gave food and shelter to ‘Tamil Maraiyor’

Tholkappiam payiram says , “Aram Karai Navin NAANMARAI Muttriya”

Aram – Virtue / Ethics / code of conduct
Karai – Shore
Navin- Vazhi (way), muthalakak konda (firstly)

NANMARAI – Moola marai
Muttriya – Mudintha (end)

The exact meaning is,”The Grammar has been written in such a way that the end chapter / theme is ‘Moola marai’ (the origin / base hidden thing) which is the path of shore of ethics.

‘Porulathikaram’ is the end Chapter of Tholkappiam.

Chidambaram Annamalai University ‘Thokai Akarathi’ (dictionary) Edited by Dr.S. Meyyappan says ‘Porul’ means Aram,porul,Enbam & Veedu.(9)

Tholkappiam specifies this meaning of ‘Porul’in poetry 374.

“Pokkaru Marabin PORUL enappaduvathu,
Nokkarum VEEDU Nuvatchi sellamayin,
ARAM PORUL ENBAM Akum Matrathu-ro”
Akanum puranum Entru A-yiru Patrai
Vakaipada Vantha Vazhi nalam Thazhiech
CHEYYULIDA VAYIR Pulliya neriththae.”

Meaning : In poetry, The theme / content (porul) shall be Aram (Virtue), Porul (Wealth) & Enbam (Pleasure) and these three can be in terms of Human emotions (akam) & human experiences (puram)

It clearly specifies that ‘Veedu’(peacefulness) which is meant beyond description remains beyond human matters. There is no Akam & puram classification in Veedu.

Tholkappiam ‘Porulathikaram’ talks about these four contents elaborately.

During 400 ACE Bavananthi Munivar made ‘Nannul’ an another grammar book which follows Tholkappiam wordings & rules most of the times.

In Nannul Payiram 10,

“Aram, Porul , Enbam, Veedu enum NAAL PORUL adaithal nool payanae”

Here, ‘Naal Porul’ means ‘moola porul’ (main theme / content ).

HENCE, NAANMARAI DOES NOT MEAN “NANKU MARAI” BUT MOOLA MARAI & WHEREVER WE FIND ‘NAANMARAI’ IN TAMIL LITERATURE WE CAN FIT THIS MEANING.

Nowhere in tamil literature four types of Marais specified. This means only Moola marai and not Nanku marai. In ‘Irayanar Akapporul’ the word ‘Arumarai’ is mentioned. Here also no number. The ‘Nanmarai’ contains ‘Porul’ as Aram, Porul, Enbam & Veedu.

As usual the foolish Vaduku poosaris thought that Aram, porul, Enbam & Veedu – the root matter (Moola porul) as four divisions (numbers) of ‘Marai’ and organized the scattered hymns all over North India into four Vedhas (the word derived from tamil ‘Vei+tham’- in which the root ‘Vei’ means ‘hide’) and akamas copied from tamil ‘Akaththumas’ & 18 puranas from tamil siva & Mayon (Vinnava) culture. I may write about this later in relevant thread.

Kings were Vaduka (or Vaduka influenced) kings in medieval period & they supported Prahritham & Sanskrit which was alienated artificially from common people. Propoganda was made that it was ‘Devabhasa’ and was not meant for Common people. Common people psychologically became inferior and pathetic tamil ‘pandit(her)s’ started comparing tamil with unreachable Sanskrit maintained by Sankrit Bandits (Pandither - of course) . This caused all the ills to society & true history.

When ‘Chathur Vedhas’ was propogated by hothas, Tamil ‘Othuvars’ created ‘Tamil Nanmarai’ and used to call them ‘Marai Nanku’ after 500 ACE (thevaram period) leaving the ancient meaning of terms ARUMARAI / NAANMARAI / MOOLAMARAI.

1000 ACE Explanatory notes exploited the original meaning of sankam literature wordings like Marai, Arumarai & Naanmarai.

Since, no single evidence identified regarding the Vedhic culture presence before common era, Vedhic protagonists exploiting these words in tamil literature with evil design.

As I explained in “Tamil is much elder than Sanskrit’ thread, Inthiran, Varunan, Sivan were gods of Tamil people. The presence of these god names in Greek literature will not witness for Vedhic culture.

Tamil traditions were fabricated as modified , rather, fascism culture (Vedhic Culture) by vadukus in Indian subcontinent. The direction as according to History is from tamil to Sasnkrit and not vice versa. The glorious part of tamil culture thus was demolished by Vedhic culture and gave India to downward path in the world scenario and lot of invasions after 800 ACE were possible due to this.

The first ever civilized people in the world now with multiplied population are living as secondary citizens all over the world while inside their own country as under-developing begging dogs.

References :

(1) South Indian Inscriptions Volume. XXIII, No. 580 (Nandaluru, Rajampettai Taluk, Kadappa Dist.) One such conflict explained in that.
(2) Koyilkalil Chentamil, Samaskritham, (Essay), Thinamani, 28.11.1998
(3) The Cholas, page 110, K.A. Nilakanda Sastri.
(4)Epigraphica Indica, Vol. VIII, No.29, Page 290-296
(5) Sounth Indian Inscriptions, Vol II, Part III of 1895, Kasakkudi Pattayam.
(6) Same as (2)
(7) Kalappirar Atchiyil Tamilakam, by Mayilai . Seeni Venkidasamy, page 93-95, 166-68,114,160,162,164.
(8) Same as (7).
(9)Vetri Tamil Akarathi, Dr.S.Meyyappan.

f.s.gandhi

[Badri]

FSG: Time and again, you have begun your posts by wounding other people's sentiments! This has to stop. While what you post has a lot of meaning and content, this constant belittling of others is totally and wholly unacceptable. It is also highly disappointing that such a mature individual like you would resort to such unwarranted, malicious and highly provocative statements like

Since Vedhic pratogonists continue their misinterpretation and foolish handiwork as their forefathers did earlier with repeated lies

Common decency and the Hub policies both require that you desist from such accusations.

I expect you to edit your post and continue with your otherwise mature postings.

[srivatsan]

Since, no single evidence identified regarding the Vedhic culture presence before common era, Vedhic protagonists exploiting these words in tamil literature with evil design.

Can I seek a bit more clarification about this? for example, what do you mean by vedic culture...? what do you mean by CE etc.,

As I explained in “Tamil is much elder than Sanskrit’ thread, Inthiran, Varunan, Sivan were gods of Tamil people.

So what is the meaning of "initithiran, varunan and sivan....in tamizh and I req you to kindly let me know the root of those words!

I would be happy if you dont direct me to another post!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

FSG: Time and again, you have begun your posts by wounding other people's sentiments! This has to stop. While what you post has a lot of meaning and content, this constant belittling of others is totally and wholly unacceptable. It is also highly disappointing that such a mature individual like you would resort to such unwarranted, malicious and highly provocative statements like

Since Vedhic pratogonists continue their misinterpretation and foolish handiwork as their forefathers did earlier with repeated lies

Common decency and the Hub policies both require that you desist from such accusations.

I expect you to edit your post and continue with your otherwise mature postings.

I am sorry Mr. Badri. I am not targeting any individual or segments of individuals. I attack contents based.

Hereafter, I shall avoid those utterances.

I have edited my post.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Srivatsav,

Your queries and my replies here : I have not directed you to old posts. But I copy and paste here some of them.

"Can I seek a bit more clarification about this? for example, what do you mean by vedic culture...? what do you mean by CE etc.,"

Common Era generally specify after Jesus Christ's birth. BC-before christ: AC-After the death of Christ. Since, Christ belongs to one religion,Secular historiens specify Common Era & before common era etc.

I may write about the transformation of Tamil culture to Vedhic culture in "Vaduku Karunadar" thread which I find that topic is suitable historically.

Archestrated birthwise divisions and their stronghold is basic theme of Vedhic culture. To make this a social structure called "Akarakaram" is made and that too in south India. And by that economical pattern of society revolved around priests and kings where 80 % of masses got downtrodden. For details please wait for my future posts.

"So what is the meaning of "initithiran, varunan and sivan....in tamizh and I req you to kindly let me know the root of those words!"


Inthran is pure tamil word used in Tholkappiam and prevailed in ancient tamil worship.

"Im' is the root as 'suttu oli' which means 'Kulir'(cool) and was used to specify substances of cool nature.

Intham - puli , Inthuli - Perumkayam, Inthul - nelli, Inthu - Mathi / Chanthiran , Inthanam - Kaadu , Inthalam - a Yazh instrument used in Marutham land. Maarutham is cool air and hence the land was named Marutham. Inthalam is also a raham from this Yazh.

'Im' turned 'Sam'- 'sim' produced santhanam, Santhu, sinthakam-pulia maram, Sinthu - a river , sinthooram- a tilak powder, sunthu- water and all specify cool nature.

Inthiran is the god of Marutham land specified in tholkappiam. 'Inthira vizha' was celebrated in kaveri river is silapapathikaram message.

Inthiran is the god of water land because water is cool in nature. Inthiran is also called Venthan. Varunan is god of sea land. 'Vari'
means kadal.

'Sinthu' river also might have been named from the word sunthu / sinthu. The word Inthiran turned 'Indra' in north India.

Inthran and Uruthran(ruthran) worship is prevailing in vedhas and is noted in Egypt civilization makes the vedhics claim so. Inthran along with Kanthu (kanthan) / pillar worship in Egypt only shows tamils culture and not Vedhic culture. Vedhic culture was influenced by tamil culture.

Tamil 'sivan' is from Tholkappiam 'Seyon' which means reddish angry man.

Tamil sea god Vaaranan / Varunan is from root Vari / Vaari which means Sea.

f.s.gandhi

[srivatsan]

Dear Srivatsav,

Your queries and my replies here : I have not directed you to old posts. But I copy and paste here some of them.

"Can I seek a bit more clarification about this? for example, what do you mean by vedic culture...? what do you mean by CE etc.,"

Common Era generally specify after Jesus Christ's birth. BC-before christ: AC-After the death of Christ. Since, Christ belongs to one religion,Secular historiens specify Common Era & before common era etc.

I may write about the transformation of Tamil culture to Vedhic culture in "Vaduku Karunadar" thread which I find that topic is suitable historically.

Archestrated birthwise divisions and their stronghold is basic theme of Vedhic culture. To make this a social structure called "Akarakaram" is made and that too in south India. And by that economical pattern of society revolved around priests and kings where 80 % of masses got downtrodden. For details please wait for my future posts.

"So what is the meaning of "initithiran, varunan and sivan....in tamizh and I req you to kindly let me know the root of those words!"


Inthran is pure tamil word used in Tholkappiam and prevailed in ancient tamil worship.

"Im' is the root as 'suttu oli' which means 'Kulir'(cool) and was used to specify substances of cool nature.

Intham - puli , Inthuli - Perumkayam, Inthul - nelli, Inthu - Mathi / Chanthiran , Inthanam - Kaadu , Inthalam - a Yazh instrument used in Marutham land. Maarutham is cool air and hence the land was named Marutham. Inthalam is also a raham from this Yazh.

'Im' turned 'Sam'- 'sim' produced santhanam, Santhu, sinthakam-pulia maram, Sinthu - a river , sinthooram- a tilak powder, sunthu- water and all specify cool nature.

Inthiran is the god of Marutham land specified in tholkappiam. 'Inthira vizha' was celebrated in kaveri river is silapapathikaram message.

Inthiran is the god of water land because water is cool in nature. Inthiran is also called Venthan. Varunan is god of sea land. 'Vari'
means kadal.

'Sinthu' river also might have been named from the word sunthu / sinthu. The word Inthiran turned 'Indra' in north India.

Inthran and Uruthran(ruthran) worship is prevailing in vedhas and is noted in Egypt civilization makes the vedhics claim so. Inthran along with Kanthu (kanthan) / pillar worship in Egypt only shows tamils culture and not Vedhic culture. Vedhic culture was influenced by tamil culture.

Tamil 'sivan' is from Tholkappiam 'Seyon' which means reddish angry man.

Tamil sea god Vaaranan / Varunan is from root Vari / Vaari which means Sea.

f.s.gandhi

[devapriya]

Dear Friends,

What is Nan Marai in Sangam Lit.

Puram166. ¡Óõ ¦ºø§Å¡õ! À¡ÊÂÅ÷: ç÷ ãÄí ¸¢Æ¡÷.
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ÓÐ Ó¾øÅý Å¡ö §À¡¸¡Ð,
´ýÚ ÒÃ¢ó¾ ®Ã¢ ÃñÊý,
Ú½÷ó¾ ´Õ ÓÐáø this Song, in subsequent line refers the Presence of different belief groups. Now Painkat Parppan(Brahahmin- Siva continuously says- ®Ã¢ÃñÊý- 2 x 2 = 4Vedas, which has 6 Braches and are 1.Siksha, 2. Chandas 3. Viyakarnam 4. Niruktham 5. Jothisham and 6. Kalpam. Are perfectly referred in the above song and these names are given in detail in Mankmekhalai
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¾¢ «ó¾õ þø¨Ä «Ð ¦¿È¢' ±Ûõ
§Å¾¢Âý ¯¨Ã¢ý Å¢¾¢Ôõ §¸ðÎ

Now Vedics are split as 6 Philosophies-
1. Vaiseshikam - Ganathar(Author)
2. Niyayam - Gouthamar
3. Sankiyam - Kapilar
4. Yogam - Pathanjali
5. Mimamsaa - jaimini
6. Vethantham - Vetha Viyasa now all these have been referred with few author names in Manimekhalai.
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À¡íÌÚõ ¯§Ä¡¸¡Â¾§Á ¦Àªò¾õ
º¡í¸¢Âõ ¨¿Â¡Â¢¸õ ¨Å§ºÊ¸õ
Á£Á¡ïº¸õ õ ºÁ º¢Ã¢Â÷ , 27-080
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Vedas cannot be dated later than 1900BCE, by which time entire Saraswathi River has Dried up. John Marshall remarked in 1931, -
“THE HARAPPAN] RELIGION IS SO CHARACTERISTICALLY INDIAN AS HARDLY TO BE DISTINGUISHED FROM STILL LIVING HINDUISM.”

Colin Renfrew, Professor of Archaeology at Cambridge, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, Cambridge University Press, 1988,
“IT IS DIFFICULT TO SEE WHAT IS PARTICULARLY NON-ARYAN ABOUT THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.”

Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark, Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization (Karachi & Islamabad : Oxford University Press & American Institute of Pakistan Studies, 1998) -“MANY SCHOLARS HAVE TRIED TO CORRECT THIS ABSURD THEORY [OF AN ARYAN INVASION], BY POINTING OUT MISINTERPRETED BASIC FACTS, INAPPROPRIATE MODELS AND AN UNCRITICAL READING OF VEDIC TEXTS. HOWEVER, UNTIL RECENTLY, THESE SCIENTIFIC AND WELL-REASONED ARGUMENTS WERE UNSUCCESSFUL IN ROOTING OUT THE MISINTERPRETATIONS ENTRENCHED IN THE POPULAR LITERATURE.”

Another example- The Unwanted item in India - the Caste system is put as Vedic -the Truth is the Opposite- as I QUOTE I put these from Dravidian protogonist Gilbert Slater
- who gives from Maxmuller, and I Quote from Tamil Translation by PanmozhiPulavar Appadurai.
ÁÛÅ¢ø ÌÈ¢ì¸ôÀðÎ þýÚ ÅÆ츢ÖûÇ º¡¾¢ Ó¨È §Å¾í¸Ç¢ý Á¢¸ô ÀƨÁÂ¡É ºÁÂò ¾òÐÅí¸Ç¢ø þ¼õ ¦ÀÚ¸¢È¾¡? "þø¨Ä" ±ýÈ ´§Ã¦º¡øÄ¢ø ¿¡õ «¨¾ «Øò¾Á¡¸ ÁÚðÐÅ¢¼Ä¡õ. ¦ÀÕﺢì¸ø Å¡öó¾ º¡¾¢ «¨ÁôÒ Ó¨Èò ¾¢ð¼òÐìÌ §Å¾ Ýì¾í¸Ç¢ø ±ò¾¨¸Â ¾ÃÓõ þø¨Ä. «Ð §À¡Ä§Å Ýò¾¢Ãâý þÆ¢¾¨¸ ¿¢¨Ä¨ÁìÌ ¾¡Ã§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ ÅÌôÀ¢É÷ ´Õí§¸ ÌØÁ¢ Å¡Æ, ´Õí§¸ ¯ñ½ô ÀÕ¸ò ¾¨¼ Å¢¾¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ º¡¾¢Â¢É÷ ¾õÓû ´ÕÅÕ즸¡ÕÅ÷ Á½ ¯È× ¦¸¡ûŨ¾ò ¾ÎìÌõ ӨȨÁ§Â¡; «ò¾¨¸Â Á½ ¯ÈÅ¡ø ÅÕõ À¢û¨Ç¸ÙìÌ Å¢Äì¸ ÓÊ¡¾ ¾£ìÌȢ¢ðÎð ¾£ñøò¾¸¡¾ÅḠ´Ð츢 ¨ÅìÌõ ¸ðÎôÀ¡§¼¡; ±Ð×õ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. «òмý º¢Åý, ¸¡Ç¢ ¸¢ÂÅ÷¸Ç¢ý «îºó ¾Õõ ¦ºÂø Өȸ¨Çô ÀüÈ£§Â¡; ¸ñ½É¢ý º¢üÈ¢ýÀì ¸Ç¢Â¡ð¼õ ÀüÈ¢§Â¡; .. ... §Åòò¾¢ø ´Õ ÍÅÎ Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. ¸¼×ÙìÌâ Á¾¢ô¨Àò ¾¦Á¦¾Éì ¦¸¡ñÎ ÀÆ¢ÝØõ ´Õ ÌÕÁ¡÷ ÌØÅ¢ý Å£õÒâ¨Á¸û, ÁÉ¢¾ þÉò¾¢ý þøÄí¸¨Ç Å¢Äí¸¢Éí¸Ç¢Ûõ ¸¢Æ¡¸ þÆ¢× ÀÎòÐõ Ó¨È ¸¢ÂÅü¨È ¾Ã¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼Óõ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. ÌÆó¨¾ Á½ò¾¢üÌ ¾Ã§Å¡, ÌÆó¨¾ Å¢¾¨Å¸û Á½ò¨¾ò ¾¨¼¦ºö§š ¸½Åý À¢½òмý ¯Â¢ÕûÇ ¨¸õ¦Àñ½¢ý ¯¼¨ÄÔõ ¨Åò¦¾Ã¢ìÌõ ¦À¡øÄ¡ô ÀÆì¸ò¨¾ ¾Ã¢Å¢ì¸§Å¡ «¾¢ø ´Õ Å¡º¸í Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. þ¨Å ¡×õ §Å¾ò¾¢ý ¦º¡øÖìÌõ ¦À¡ÕÙì̧Á Á¡ÚÀð¼¨Å." Quote frm Maxmuler “þó¾¢Â ¿¡¸Ã¢¸ò¾¢ø ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ô ÀñÒ”- ¸¢øÀ÷𠺢§Äð¼÷, ¾Á¢ú ¸¡.«ôÀ¡Ð¨Ã. Àì¸õ 40,41.

Indian Culture and Civilisation is the Oldest and If Foreigners wrote meaninglessly, then the Indian by Birth, but Christian Fathers- and writers did it, and MahaKavi Bharati condemns it in his Short ARTICLE called Á¾¢ôÒ

þó¾¢Â¡¨Å ¦ÅÇ¢Ôĸò¾¡÷ À¡Á羺õ ±ýÚ ¿¢¨ÉìÌõÀÊ ¦ºö¾ Ó¾ü ÌüÈõ ¿õÓ¨¼ÂÐ. ÒÈì¸ÕÅ¢¸û ÀÄ. ӾġÅÐ, ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢. «¦Áâ측ŢÖõ ³§Ã¡ôÀ¡Å¢Öõ º¢Ä ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢¸û, ¾í¸û Á¾ Å¢„ÂÁ¡É À¢Ãº¡Ãò¨¾ ¯ò§¾º¢òÐ ¿õ¨Áì ÌÈ¢òÐô ¦Àâ ¦Àâ ¦À¡ö¸û ¦º¡øÄ¢, þôÀÊ𠾡úóÐ §À¡ö Á¸ð¾¡É «¿¡¸Ã¢¸ ¿¢¨Ä¢ø þÕìÌõ ƒÉí¸¨Çì ¸¢È¢ŠÐ Á¼ò¾¢§Ä §º÷òÐ §Áý¨ÁôÀÎòÐõ Òñ½¢Âò¨¼î ¦ºöž¡¸î ¦º¡øÖ¸¢È¸û. þóÐì¸û ÌÆ󨾸¨Ç ¿¾¢Â¢§Ä §À¡Î¸¢È¡÷¸û ±ýÚõ, Šòâ¸¨Ç (Ó츢ÂÁ¡¸, «¿¡¨¾¸Ç¡öô ÒÕ„÷¸¨Ç þÆóÐ ¸¾¢Â¢øÄ¡Áø þÕìÌõ ¨¸õ¦Àñ¸¨Ç) ¿¡ö¸¨Çô §À¡Ä ¿¼òи¢È÷¸û ±ýÚõ ÀÄÅ¢¾Á¡É «ÀÅ¡¾í¸û ¦º¡øÖ¸¢È¡÷¸û. ¿õÓ¨¼Â ƒ¡¾¢ô À¢Ã¢×¸Ç¢¦Ä þÕìÌõ ÌüÈí¸¨Ç¦ÂøÄ¡õ â¾ì¸ñ½¡Ê ¨ÅòÐì ¸¡ðθ¢È¡÷¸û. þó¾ì ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢¸Ç¡§Ä ¿ÁìÌ §¿÷ó¾ «ÅÁ¡Éõ «ÇÅ¢ø¨Ä. Barathiyar, ¸ðΨÃ- Á¾¢ôÒ

Where as Thani- Tamil Scholars went on to go by the Jainistic Probaganda- that Silapathikaram and Kural are Jainistic, with very flimsy few picked verses. Even few went on to say that Marai or Vetham or Ooththu in Tholkappiyam, Sangam-Kural – Manimekhalai could be some Non Existent Tamil Vedams etc., and The Missionary Motived Pavanar had to himself has to admit-
// " Nalvetham or Nanmarai, Arangam Agamam enbana ellam Arya Noolkale enbathum, Thirukural thavira ippothulla Pandai Noolkalellam Anthanar enbathum Brahmararie Kurikkum Enpathu Sariye. Page- 102 Tamilar Matham.//


Devapriya

[bis_mala]

From this stanza, (Puram 166) it is clear that the
word “paarppaan” can also refer to “uurpaarppan”, a person who looks after a village or region of several villages. The area referred to is “puunjchARRuur”.: “onRu purintha iirirandin” refers to “aram, poruL, inpam, viidu” the interplay of which is life. AaRu uNarntha oru muthunuul refers to an old Tamil nuul which explains the way of life. It may be an ethics book. Tamil language had many treatises and grammar books which have been lost. Arya Vedas had nothing to do with the situation and is out of place here.

Other matters have been replied to elsehwhere.
There is no need to consider Manimekhalai here as the stanza in Puram and Manimekhalai may not be of the same era.
As to Saraswathy River, I have given a fitting reply in “Is Tamil derived from Sanskrit?” thread, Please refer.

[bis_mala]

Devariya wrote:-

//À¢È÷ ¦º¡Äì ¸Õ¾ø þô ¦ÀüȢ «Ç¨Å¸û
À¡íÌÚõ ¯§Ä¡¸¡Â¾§Á ¦Àªò¾õ
º¡í¸¢Âõ ¨¿Â¡Â¢¸õ ¨Å§ºÊ¸õ
Á£Á¡ïº¸õ õ ºÁ º¢Ã¢Â÷ , 27-080
¾¡õ À¢Õ¸üÀ¾¢ º¢É§É ¸À¢Äý
«ì¸À¡¾ý ¸½¡¾ý ¨ºÁ¢É¢
¦ÁöôÀ¢Ãò¾¢Âõ «ÛÁ¡Éõ º¡ò¾õ
¯ÅÁ¡Éõ «Õò¾¡Àò¾¢ «À¡Åõ
þ¨Å§Â þô§À¡Ð þÂýÚ ¯Ç «Ç¨Å¸û'
±ýÈÅý ¾ý¨É Å¢ðÎ 'þ¨ÈÅý ®ºý' ±É
¿¢ýÈ ¨ºÅ Å¡¾¢ §¿÷ÀξÖõ//

Now you have been going round in this forum saying that the word Sivam is unknown to Sangam Poets. But you are quoting Puram 166 and Manimekhalai on the basis that they are of the same era and further your quotation contained the word "saivam" which is derived from "sivam or seyOn!!

Please stop contradicting yourself.

[mahadevan]

Solomon wrote:Vedas cannot be dated later than 1900BCE, by which time entire Saraswathi River has Dried up. John Marshall remarked in 1931,

If a devout christian makes a statement today like "I spoke with Jesus Christ and he guided me" than solomon would say that this statement cannot be dated later than 100 AD, what a great logic solomon, only *****'s like you can appreciate that!