Raaja - comparing 4 decades of musical output

[Sureshs65]

app,

If 70s was characterised by great melodies which touched everyone's heart, like 'chitira sevvanam', 'kalai paniyil', 'kuyile kavikuyile', 'kannan oru kai kuzhandai' and many more, 80s to be was characterised by his fusion experiments. That is what I primarily think about when I think about Raja of the 80s. Ofcourse, it is impossible to put Raja into a slot but the predominant feature of the 80s which gives me great joy are these fusion experiments. Songs like 'pani vizhum malar vanam', 'andhi mazhai pozhigiradhu', 'poo malarndidha', 'poonkadave thazhthiravai', 'idhu oru pon malai pozhudu', 'thendrale nee vara kathirunden', etc. In these songs Raja very clearly shows the raga color and keeping the color intact he goes on to fuse various genres into the song. You can't strictly call these carnatic or classical type songs. They are the pinnacle of film songs, wherein every idiom is completely understood and mixed in a way that evokes awe amongst the listeners. I still remember two articles that the writer Sujatha wrote in winder. One was about the instrumental fusion that Raja does in 'Raja Parvai' based on Panthuvarali ragam. The other one is 'poon kadhave' where Raja uses Mayamalavagowla and brings in Bach one hand and nadaswaram on the other hand!!! Sujatha wondered how this was possible.

Coming to 'pani vizhum' Raja based this song on the ragam 'Chalanatai' and he faithfully follows the ragam throughout. Another music director, I think it was Bala Bharathi, once told on a TV show that 'Chalanatai' was technically what is called a 'vivadhi' ragam and that Raja had tuned in this rather difficult raga very well. He ended up by saying that this was not possible for anyone other than Raja. The very start fuses carnatic and wcm, where the violins play in the WCM mode but play a carnatic raga!! The drumming of course is top class throughout. The bass, aah, what more can you say. When the first sung once by SPB, the violins, synth, drums take over as if they cannot wait their turn. The first interlude has amazing fusion. This interlude alone would be enough to establish the fusion credential of any MD. There is flute, veena, tabla, drums, bass, synth, violins. The charanams also have the flute, the veena, the congos coming in and before he loops back into the pallavi the tabla shows the way with a flourish and the drums welcome the pallavi. The second interlude for all practical purposes is folk but it doesn't sound that way.

I know you miss the 'thullal' songs of Raja. For my part, I miss these type of fusion experiments of Raja. Maybe he thought that he has done enough in this style!! I am sure he can do it nowadays as well. 'kodamanjin' is an example but somehow he isn't doing too much of this style and instead concentrating on a more jazzy style nowadays.

[tvsankar]

Suresh,
Ungaloda writings padikaren - mellae onnu

one request - Chella thathae - indha paatukum ezhudhuveengala?

[baroque]

சுரேஷ்,
நினைவெல்லாம் நித்யா has தோளின் மேலே ..... பாலா & கோ - an amazing tribal rhythm .
நீ தானே எந்தன்.... outstanding jazzy composition .. the second lude ENCHANTING.
MAGICAL S.P.BALA! :musicsmile:
***********************
speaking of anandha kummi!
Overwhelming folkish ilayaraaja drumming with scintillating violin, Janu, balu's humming, chorus, claps..
கதைகள் பேசு கவிகள் பேசு விடியும் வரையில் நீ பாடு
நிலவே நீயும் தூங்காதே ஒ
நாளை இந்த வேளை எமை நீ காண வா ஒ பால் போல வா
ஒ வெண்ணிலாவே.....WHAT A SONG!
Shri.IR with S.P.Bala RULES Forever! :)

[Sureshs65]

Usha,

I haven't heard that song too many times. Will hear it now.

Vinatha,

While I was writing about 'Ninaivellam Nitya', the other song that immediately came to mind as a classic example of fusion was 'nee thane enda pon vasantham', which you have also pointed out. Excellent song. I remember app_eng writing about all songs of NN sometime back. It was definitely a class album.

[baroque]

GREAT :)

நான் ஏரிக்கரை மேலிருந்து எட்டித்திசை ...
யேசுதாஸ் with ஸ்வர்ண லதா - Folkish melody with tabla, flute, folkish strings, bells
WHAT a TUNE!
Chinnaththaayi is a nice album!
vinatha. :)

[genesis]

I am not sure I explained it well enough. I can see that you didn't get it. Here is another try.

Suresh - Thanks for being so modest. I appreciate your detail reply. It may take some time for me to assimilate all the information.

jaiganes, Vinatha - Thanks for pitching in.

But I guess I get the crux of it. The examples I gave are just "explicit" overlay of 2 different types of music. But Raja is fusing one type of music with another. I see why you do not want to call the first type as fusion.

All being said, I am a very "naive" music listener, with out any theoretical knowledge about any form of music. But, I consider myself as person who is able to generally identify good music. When I see when experts like you praise some songs for its complexity, and it does not appeal to me I get confused. Please note these songs are generally not hit with masses too.

Example "Manmohini" from Yuvvraj. I liked "Tu Muskura" the most. I think "Tu Muskura" has something and something is missing from "Manmohini". What is it? Manmohini is not beautiful or it just lacks "life"?

I love to see your reply on this question.

[Sureshs65]

But I guess I get the crux of it. The examples I gave are just "explicit" overlay of 2 different types of music. But Raja is fusing one type of music with another. I see why you do not want to call the first type as fusion.

All being said, I am a very "naive" music listener, with out any theoretical knowledge about any form of music. But, I consider myself as person who is able to generally identify good music. When I see when experts like you praise some songs for its complexity, and it does not appeal to me I get confused. Please note these songs are generally not hit with masses too.


genesis,

Just a clarification. I am not saying that fusion is of only one type. It is just that there are different approaches to fusion and each has its own challenges and charm. From my point of view, the fusion that Raja does induces a lot of awe in me.

As far as music is concerned, theoretical knowledge should never come in the way of enjoyment. Most of us have developed our aesthetics and 'knowledge' by listening to songs and not due to any formal education in music.

Also kindly check your PM.

[jaiganes]

I am not sure I explained it well enough. I can see that you didn't get it. Here is another try.

Suresh - Thanks for being so modest. I appreciate your detail reply. It may take some time for me to assimilate all the information.

jaiganes, Vinatha - Thanks for pitching in.

But I guess I get the crux of it. The examples I gave are just "explicit" overlay of 2 different types of music. But Raja is fusing one type of music with another. I see why you do not want to call the first type as fusion.

All being said, I am a very "naive" music listener, with out any theoretical knowledge about any form of music. But, I consider myself as person who is able to generally identify good music. When I see when experts like you praise some songs for its complexity, and it does not appeal to me I get confused. Please note these songs are generally not hit with masses too.

Example "Manmohini" from Yuvvraj. I liked "Tu Muskura" the most. I think "Tu Muskura" has something and something is missing from "Manmohini". What is it? Manmohini is not beautiful or it just lacks "life"?

I love to see your reply on this question.

see genesis - we are not here to simply say that you gotta love Raja's music because of this reason or that reason. Because when all is said and done, as a listener you connect to one form of music or another at an emotional level. There are many Raja songs that I simply dont connect to- however that does not give me any god given right to say that it is crap. What is crap is definitely 'lazy' music - music divorced from context, music undermining the listener. Every music is done with a context and under a set of circumstances.
To me Music is all about resonance which means that there are two parties to music - the guy who created and the guy who is listening (not consuming). When I listened to 'Puththam pudhu poo poothadho' in Thalabadhi it was not evoking any response from me while the rest of the songs were instant catch ons. years down the line, I feel it is the best song in the movie. That is because I resonated late to the song. So my humble request is never walk out on a 'sincere' composer Rahman or Raja (there are clones and pretenders who steal here and there and pass it off without 'working' on it) just because it is not catchy instantly. wait for the time and keep an open mind. Atleast with Raja I am discovering so many gems recently in the so called lean period of late 90s and 2000s that make perfect sense now to me that when they were first heard.
As far as your query on 'Manmohana' is concerned - I have not heard the other song, but manmohana is a very good bhajan song - with a lot more 'space' in the interludes that indicate some kind of 'events on screen' that cannot be melodically tied to the bhajan in a straight forward fashion. but the main melody is very nice and the feel of singing is also sincere. Only piece of grouse I have is - it need not be so deliberately slow paced - just because it is a melancholic bhajan - but that is mainly a choice of the director and Music director has to kinda go with it I guess. nice singing I must admit here.
That much for digressing on Other MD's songs.

Underlining thing is what use of 'musical intellect' if it cannot connect to the rasika (listener) at an emotional level. Raja mentions this in Thiruvasagam video quite a few number of times and Raja's magic mainly has to be felt in a theatre with the movie.
All this analysis we do - is a futile (yet fruitful) attempt to isolate elements in Raja's music that give the emotional edge. Sometimes it is the raaga and other times it is the rhythms and some other times it is inexplicable.

[baroque]

Genesis,
Yuvraj from Rahman is a different type of FUSION.
That is a LOVELY style.
mind blowing cello, strings orchestral Rahman magic with the tail end humming, swara ( new age fusion).. tu muskura(alka's finest)..vocal counterpoint with strings.

manmohini morey... is more Indian classical with electronic beats and swara renderings.

there are lots of that type of fusion in Indian cinema including Shri.IR has done it.

இது ஒரு நிலா காலம்.... is one of them from Shri.IR in TIK TIK TIK with jadhi renderings.
பூ மலர்ந்திட.....with swara renderings...IR
daras bina nahin... saawariya... amazing desh... ends in tilang monty sharma
வெள்ளி மலரே.... ஜோடி... மெக்ஹ மல்ஹார்...ரஹ்மான்
albela saajan......Ismail darbar in raaga aahir bhairavi
SOUKHA... is a private album by vennila kabadi kuzhu's V.Selva ganesh
கண்ணா நீ ....பாம்பே ஜெயஸ்ரீ & ஸ்ரீநிவாஸ் -G.V.P-ராகம் மதுகௌன்ஸ்.

TOTALLY DIG IT! :musicsmile:
Vocal counterpoints etc... Including MSV(ஆரோடும் மண்ணில்....Thanks to MSVTIMES for introducing me to that song), RAHMAN(raasathi....thiruda thiruda, tu muskura...) have done.

You learn the theory, you enjoy your favorite composers like ir, rahman, r.d.burman, salil, s.d.burman, msv, etc... better.:musicsmile:

Wanna learn some vocabularies on WCM.
Please visit
http://isai-alias-raja.blogspot.com/

For JAZZ, DHOOL's venkat has done some theory works.
www.dhool.com

Where do I begin with Asha's hindustani Raga PATDEEP...megha chaaye aadhi raat... with the jazzy, pop prelude/ orchestration by S.D.Burman.!
vinatha. :musicsmile:

[raagas]

Where do I begin with Asha's hindustani Raga PATDEEP...megha chaaye aadhi raat... with the jazzy, pop prelude/ orchestration by S.D.Burman.!
vinatha. :musicsmile:

Know what, I have this strong belief that this song was the inspiration (in its truest sense), for ilaiyaraaja when he composed "O Paapa Laali" for telugu film "Geetanjali". My father was the 1st person who pointed this out and I too felt that Megha Chaaye probably was running in his mind when he was composing O Paapa Laali. The cue-point for us is the way the charanams take off in both "O Paapa Laali" and "Megha Chaaye" and also that flute connector between the two lines, once the charanam starts. This inspiration could be something similar to the way he got inspired to do "Inji ezhupalaghe" (Devar magan) from S.D.Burman's "Yeh Dil Deewana Hai". the similarity is so damn subtle that it qualifies for what ilaiyaraaja exactly calls as inspiration. Strange that he never mentioned "Megha Chaaye" anytime before but I am still waiting if he admits it. May be SPB will reveal it, in some show, provided it is truth.

[app_engine]

Thank you Sureshji for the excellent write-up on pani vizhum malar vanam :-)

One of those songs which had aesthetic poetry as well, by Vairamuthu ("சேலை மூடும் இளஞ்சோலை, மாலை சூடும் மலர் மாலை").

Sridhar is a master when getting stuff from the music department!

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

I think genesis was referring to the 'Manmohini' piece that Vijay Prakash sang in 'Yuvraaj'. From your description, looks like you are referring to 'Manmohina' from 'Jodha Akbar'?

app_eng: What you say about Sridhar is perfect. He was a director who seems to be looking for something 'new' in music always. Even when Vishwanathan Ramamurthy were scoring for him, the music in his movies sounded 'different' from the other 'hits' of those times, say the songs of Bhim Singh movies. Given that Sridhar had the penchant for something different and Raja was raring to go in those days, it is not surprising that magic happened!! AM Raja, V-R, MSV and then Raja. Sridhar got great melodies from all of them.

[jaiganes]

Where do I begin with Asha's hindustani Raga PATDEEP...megha chaaye aadhi raat... with the jazzy, pop prelude/ orchestration by S.D.Burman.!
vinatha. :musicsmile:

Know what, I have this strong belief that this song was the inspiration (in its truest sense), for ilaiyaraaja when he composed "O Paapa Laali" for telugu film "Geetanjali". My father was the 1st person who pointed this out and I too felt that Megha Chaaye probably was running in his mind when he was composing O Paapa Laali. The cue-point for us is the way the charanams take off in both "O Paapa Laali" and "Megha Chaaye" and also that flute connector between the two lines, once the charanam starts. This inspiration could be something similar to the way he got inspired to do "Inji ezhupalaghe" (Devar magan) from S.D.Burman's "Yeh Dil Deewana Hai". the similarity is so damn subtle that it qualifies for what ilaiyaraaja exactly calls as inspiration. Strange that he never mentioned "Megha Chaaye" anytime before but I am still waiting if he admits it. May be SPB will reveal it, in some show, provided it is truth.

correction - he didnt get inspired to do inji iduppazhagi. Kamal insisted that he do a song on the same lines ...
adhu maadhiri not adhe maadhiri said kamal

[jaiganes]

Jai,

I think genesis was referring to the 'Manmohini' piece that Vijay Prakash sang in 'Yuvraaj'. From your description, looks like you are referring to 'Manmohina' from 'Jodha Akbar'?

app_eng: What you say about Sridhar is perfect. He was a director who seems to be looking for something 'new' in music always. Even when Vishwanathan Ramamurthy were scoring for him, the music in his movies sounded 'different' from the other 'hits' of those times, say the songs of Bhim Singh movies. Given that Sridhar had the penchant for something different and Raja was raring to go in those days, it is not surprising that magic happened!! AM Raja, V-R, MSV and then Raja. Sridhar got great melodies from all of them.
my bad - I have been listening to manmohana piece quite a lot these days..

[genesis]

daras bina nahin... saawariya... amazing desh... ends in tilang monty sharma
albela saajan......Ismail darbar in raaga aahir bhairavi
கண்ணா நீ ....பாம்பே ஜெயஸ்ரீ & ஸ்ரீநிவாஸ் -G.V.P-ராகம் மதுகௌன்ஸ்.

Vinatha,

Can you tell me the movie name for these 3 songs?

Jai,
Suresh is right. I was referring to "Manmohini" from Yuvvraj, not "Manmohana" from Jodha Akbar.

[baroque]

daras bina nahin... saawariya... amazing desh... ends in tilang monty sharma
albela saajan......Ismail darbar in raaga aahir bhairavi
கண்ணா நீ ....பாம்பே ஜெயஸ்ரீ & ஸ்ரீநிவாஸ் -G.V.P-ராகம் மதுகௌன்ஸ்.

Vinatha,

Can you tell me the movie name for these 3 songs?



Genesis,

daras bina...Film - saawariya
albela sajan...Film - hum dil de chuke sanam
கண்ணா நீ ...Film - இரும்புகோட்டை முரட்டுசிங்கம்
enjoy.. :)

*****************************************
raagas,
Scintillating S.D.Burman. :musicsmile:
thanks.. will check out both IR & S.D.B back to back as soon as I can.

ran around insane with zillion orchestral rich songs of Ilayaraaja whole weekend & with one song... S.D.Burman subdued me yesterday evening!

emotion of muted orchestration with the power of language arts in ragam piloo! :musicsmile:

jinhe naaz hai hind par vo kahaan hai
kahaan hai, kahaan hai, kahaan hai ..... :( :cry:

The war against human lust & power which subject humanity to shame
GURU DUTT classic...PYAASA!:clap:

anyway... this is IR thread,
I am still in a subdued mood...
துள்ளித் திரிந்ததொரு காலம்
பள்ளிப் பயின்றதொரு காலம்......என்றும் அன்புடன் .

ஹார்மோனியம் , ப்ளூட் , ஸ்ரீ.பாலா's humming, அழகான லிரிக்ஸ், melodious tune for me :)

Suresh may continue with
bells, kolusu, guitar, folkish violin,tabla rhythm, ilayaraaja's signature echo flute
சாமக்கோழி ஏ கூவுதம்மா ....பொண்ணு ஊருக்கு புதுசு
http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=154855&mode=100&rand=0.20076199093915126

I used to wait under the palace arch not crossing the road from the palace ground to go home or enter school gate for the tea shop near our house to play this song during school days... :musicsmile:

VINATHA. :)

[genesis]

app_eng: What you say about Sridhar is perfect. He was a director who seems to be looking for something 'new' in music always. Even when Vishwanathan Ramamurthy were scoring for him, the music in his movies sounded 'different' from the other 'hits' of those times, say the songs of Bhim Singh movies. Given that Sridhar had the penchant for something different and Raja was raring to go in those days, it is not surprising that magic happened!! AM Raja, V-R, MSV and then Raja. Sridhar got great melodies from all of them.

Good observation Suresh. Bharathiraja, Mani Ratnam, Subhash Ghai, K.Vishwanath, Kadhir also fall in the same category as Sridhar. Whomever be the MD, songs from their movies generally stand apart.

The only difference is: Kadhir's movies are torture to watch. :)

[jaiganes]

app_eng: What you say about Sridhar is perfect. He was a director who seems to be looking for something 'new' in music always. Even when Vishwanathan Ramamurthy were scoring for him, the music in his movies sounded 'different' from the other 'hits' of those times, say the songs of Bhim Singh movies. Given that Sridhar had the penchant for something different and Raja was raring to go in those days, it is not surprising that magic happened!! AM Raja, V-R, MSV and then Raja. Sridhar got great melodies from all of them.

Good observation Suresh. Bharathiraja, Mani Ratnam, Subhash Ghai, K.Vishwanath, Kadhir also fall in the same category as Sridhar. Whomever be the MD, songs from their movies generally stand apart.

The only difference is: Kadhir's movies are torture to watch. :)

Sridhar went up north and got awesome melodies from Shankar Jaikishan, Laxmikant Pyarelal as well. His musical sense is unparalleled.

[jaiganes]

Getting back to Raaja's philosophy of unifying fusion of distinct genres, I was listening to 'kodiyile malliyapoo' from Kadalora kavidhaigal. This was late 80s and by now the thamizh film music lovers had gotten used to Raaja's 'experiments' and Raja pulls up this rabbit from his feather ridden crown.
There is 'folksy' feel that is evident from the following sources in the song:
1. vocals - Jayachandran and Janaki sing it with a light slang that underlines the rural feel
2. Percussion in Charanam - a tabla which otherwise would have been used throughout comes only in the charanam (no one would have thought of this before Raaja in a thamizh film music for a village based subject) and very restrained
3. Flute in the interludes. Actually this is the master driver of the 'Bucolic' feel in this song. While there are grand violin ensemble pieces pouring out notes after notes of chaste WCM, the solo flute counterpoints provide the 'Folk' answers to those questions.

With such minimalistic handling, Raaja can take a texture of a song and 'transport' it to the heartland of coastal rural village south of Madurai. This minimalism also is a hall mark of 'Modernism' and 'Post modernism'.

Now as we have been discussing in the recent past pages, Raaja the 'master mood creator' never compromises on the 'feeling' or the emotional aspect for anything else. Also the need to 'say the story' through sounds is also an overarching prerogative.
So the pallavi that extends a wee bit into an anu pallavi (experts help needed here - I might be way off course) and both are punctuated by hesitant phrases - something that hints at lack of completion and the situation indeed is that of a relationship on the knife edge and hesitation between the lead pair being what is the driver of the song.
The staccato styled
'Kodiyile Malliyappoo
manakkudhe maane'

and the anupallavi which underlines the tempest within that is the reason for the hesitation
'PaRikkachcholli thoondudhE'
does not have such hesitation - and it sounds more complete and slightly elaborate with the last syllable stretches being the longest in the entire pallavi . The point of special note would be the prelude music to the whole song that repeats itself in various forms in the interlude as well - resembles more of a 'beat pattern' than a free flowing musical score. All deliberate and all to underline what happens in the story and what the characters think and feel.

At one point in the charanam interlude I felt like why does this lude have to end? what more can words describe that this music has shown to me? And in the charanam words too Ilaiyaraaja and his guitar provide apt support to subtle lyrics of Vairamuththu.
It takes extreme guts or an Ilaiyaraaja to score this gem and it takes an equally fearless Bharathiraaja to even film this song so beautifully.

[tvsankar]

jaiganes,
about me - romba intelectuala irukara post ku ellam
reply seiya - konjam bayam...

Ennoda bhadhilal - Great article - ordinary view point ku
kootindu poi vidumo endru...

unga postil naan unarndhadhu - niriaya vishaym therindhu
kolla vendum.........

Anyway, Great post for a Folk song......

Thank you Jaiganes....

[tvsankar]

At one point in the charanam interlude I felt like why does this lude have to end? what more can words describe that this music has shown to me? And in the charanam words too Ilaiyaraaja and his guitar provide apt support to subtle lyrics of Vairamuththu.
It takes extreme guts or an Ilaiyaraaja to score this gem and it takes an equally fearless Bharathiraaja to even film this song so beautifully.
_________________

This is the Credit for the song.........
you told very nicely jaiganes....

[Punnaimaran]

Wow !! Great write ups jaiganes and Suresh65. After reading your posts, I see/listen to those songs with a new perspective. Thanks for letting people like us know about the intricacies of the songs. Eagerly looking out for more posts from you.

Being in and out of office for the past week, am not able to sit down and post peacefully.

[Plum]

Jai, great post on kodiyilE. "Narrative integrity" is one aspect of Raja's music that fascinates me the most. I even coined that phrase to emphasise my POV of Raja appreciation. This is where a song like this scores over a pani vizhum malar vanam for me. In other words, while I am not a fan of cinema as much as I am of music, I am inexorably drawn to music that has a set context in a movie than otherwise. It is a paradox that I cannot explain but bonds me to Raja in a way I feel very personal.
The observation about the hesitancy of the staccato pallavi is spot-on. And the way parikka cholli thUndhudhae has the hopes soaring, and the way that yearning comes back at "nerunga vida villaiyE"( that sigh is enshrined in the tune and PJC's voice there).

The interludes, as you observed are sheer magic, One of those where every moment of the ludes are packed with sangathis.

And I daresay, SPB's rendition in Telugu actually is a notch lesser both for this and Adi AthAdi - a rare occurrence, that.

[Punnaimaran]

Plum,

You hit the nail on the head with the word "Narrative integrity", an apt description for IR's mastery in bringing out the context through his music.

[ananth222]

great post abt jaiganes "kodiyile malligapoo"
It is one of my most favorite IR songs. But even when suggested to IR fans who know abt fusion, they view it as too "south Indian" and "folksy". This is infact a great example of fusion. Thanks for describing it in detail!

[app_engine]

Sweet description for a great song, jaiganesh!

Isn't this song the one guitar Prasanna described as the "perfect 10 song"?

That BR / IR decided to skip the repeat of pallavi after the first saraNam but place that fantastic interlude helped the "narrative integrity" as well, IMHO :-)

[jaiganes]

True indeed it is a 10/10 song.
nice point A_E on the lack of repeating pallavi. (idhai ellaam vilambarapaduthikkama vittutaanga Raasavum BRum)

Couple of points I missed out
1. The staccato style is not restricted to pallavi alone. When we watch the ludes closely they too see saw and stop repeating in a neat circle - Quite extraordinary and revolutionary for a montage kinda song where everyone intends to keep the music as free flowing as possible.
2. Another Raaja song that pops up in my mind when I hear this song is 'Poongaatru Pudiraanadhu' from Moondram pirai.
There is 'Poongaatru' a pause electric guitar strum and then a pause and then 'Pudhiraanadhu' this continues another time and then the third line is the answer 'Irandu manadhai inaithu...' What an intricate puzzle and what an answer from the lyricist . Same way here 'KodiyilE' as per thamizh phonetic maathirai - KodiyilE ends in a big 'E' kaaram (ஏ) that would have had every music director reaching out to their singers to sing it stretched and a violin bow to accompany to the limits, Raaja the master chooses to deemphasize there and wait till the third line where the E kaaram gets the emphasis.

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

Excellent writeup about a great song. Not much to add after what you have said. (Not that it had stopped me earlier :lol: ) I have been advocating Plum's phrase 'narrative integrity' in many places and that wonderfully captures what Raja does in his music.

The great paradox, if you can call that, is that two of the music greats whom I revere, have done all their innovation after first restricting themselves!!! Tyagaraja in Carnatic music decided that he will compose only krithis (not touch padams, swarajathis etc) and not sing anything other than bhakthi. And within these constraints he created magic which is still unmatched.

Similarly, Raja in film music restricted himself to be true to what was happening on the screen, true to the culture being portrayed and true to the basic form (folk, carnatic, amma songs etc) and within these restrictions he has done so many innovations that it will take a very very long time for any composer to match a fraction of his output, in qualitative and quantitative terms.

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

One song which popped in my mind when you mentioned 'kodiyile' and wanted to give as an example for genesis earlier was 'edho mogam'. That is also an amazing blend of WCM with our own nativity. The Malayalam music director Sarath in one episode of Idea Super Singer mentions about this song and that is an amazing song which Krishnachandar has sung well.

[app_engine]

Edho mOgam , despite being a product of early 80's, has excellent recording / stereophonic distribution etc. I've placed it in a CD among jAnE do nA, cheeni kum hai, bAtEin, kaiyeththA kombaththu, dheemi dheemi, sArAh yEh Alam (all post 2000 songs, with decent recording) and still it does not sound out of place (unlike 'endRendRum AnandhamE' from same time period of 'EdhO mOgam', whose recording sounds pathetic and mono as well).

A song that obtained appreciation for IR from the likes of RDB ("Raja is a decade ahead of us") & Paul Mauriat!

நல்ல வேளை அருமையான ஒலிப்பதிவு இந்தப்பாட்டுக்குக்கிடைத்தது :-)

[eagle]

I started listening to paul marriat after reading raajas encounter with him... of course "yedho mogam" song he chose to play for him....

What to say... Raaja operates in altogether different plane compared to RDB & Paul mauriat... more complex in nature... more richer in vocabulary...more soulful than any other....

Sometimes i wonder the lightening speed at which he delivered the music with great quality is the reason people take his outputs in a lighter vein....

[Bala (Karthik)]

Jai :thumbsup:


great post abt jaiganes "kodiyile malligapoo"
It is one of my most favorite IR songs. But even when suggested to IR fans who know abt fusion, they view it as too "south Indian" and "folksy". This is infact a great example of fusion. Thanks for describing it in detail!
Story of Raaja's life :) "Only folk, ""doesn't experiment", "no western influences", "same old tabla", "repetitive" etc... the cross he had to bear for daring to create his signature.
Its this factor IMO (his kind of fusion) that was the main reason he ruled the masses - his music was accessible to the masses and at the same time provided great fodder for the discerning.

[jaiganes]

Jai :thumbsup:


great post abt jaiganes "kodiyile malligapoo"
It is one of my most favorite IR songs. But even when suggested to IR fans who know abt fusion, they view it as too "south Indian" and "folksy". This is infact a great example of fusion. Thanks for describing it in detail!
Story of Raaja's life :) "Only folk, ""doesn't experiment", "no western influences", "same old tabla", "repetitive" etc... the cross he had to bear for daring to create his signature.
Its this factor IMO (his kind of fusion) that was the main reason he ruled the masses - his music was accessible to the masses and at the same time provided great fodder for the discerning.

At some point he had prepared the audience for something great. Just that the listeners wandered off into MTV territory and slowly finding their way back. when I listen to Vennila kabadi kuzhu's lesa parakkudhu manasu - the 'folk' flavor is there but is not. And when I listen to 80s raja the reason is very evident. There are some details our modern MDs wont get - even if they pour over all the raagas and thaalas. It is in the study of sub culture that Raaja did that the current MDs are unable to do.
The MD of vennila kabaddi kuzhu down played the tabla and used the 'Ghatam' (his father being the maestro he is). Raja would have used strong tabela and used Gada singari (As he explains in the composing sessions to MG Sreekumar). Ghatam's sound is great, but far too urban (to many ghatam itself is 'dated' and traditonal). Such choices here and there are what Raaja makes - other wise as Raagas (hubber) signature points out clearly - only 7 notes.
Another hallmark of Raaja is minimalism - In thalabadhi - one bhogi drum and a shrill flute and one train sound is all it takes to recreate an entire sound scape surrounding a mother and her estranged son, though he had a room full of musicians at his disposal. One needs to keep all of that in mind before judging Raaja - but most of us have become 'encounter specialists' when it comes to our opinions online. So much so - most of the opinions I read on music 100 words or 2000 words - most of the times doesnt deserve to be taken at face value.

[Sureshs65]

Continuing on our efforts to decode Raja (not fossible but ...)

There are not many movies wherein the MD uses the same raga or its close cousin to convey different emotions. I am not talking about the same song sung in happy and sad mood. Those were 'bahe haat ka khel' for our older MDs. (For those who don't know Hindi, it means they could do it with their left hand.) Raja, his predecessors and his successors have done those. I am thinking of two totally different songs from the same movie having the same raga (or a very closely allied raga) but giving rise to totally different emotional experience.

I will not list 'Sundari' and 'Yamunai Atrile' from Dhalapathi (both based on Kalyani / Yamuna Kalyani) here since both are love songs.

The one movie where I saw Raja use Mayamalavagowla and the closely allied raga, Vakulabaranam, was in the Malayalam movie, 'Ponmudipuzhayorathu'. Mayamalavagowla is used in the highly popular 'oru chiri kandal'. This is a typical love song.

Check this out at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwG7li3mkQA

Raja, in the same movie, uses Vakulabaranam, which sounds very close to Mayamalavagowla and creates a totally different feel. The song is 'Ammayennu Vaaku'. Listen to it at:

http://www.raaga.com/channels/malayalam/searchresults.asp?search=ponmudi&Lang=M&search_fld=ALBUM

I thought that this was the first time he was doing this but saw that he also does this in Karagatakkakari.

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00276.html

Please check out the songs 'enna petha' in which Raja sings a philosophical song based on Mayamalavagowla and Tippu and Manjari sing 'EngaOoru' which seems to be based on Vakulabaranam. Here he inverts the emotions. In 'Ponmudipuzhayorathu', Mayamalavagowla is used for love and Vakulabaranam for giving a philosophical slant whereas in 'Karagatakkari' he does the opposite.

Has Raja tried something like this in 80s? Will be nice to know.

[tvsankar]

suresh,
ipo dhan unga writings parthen.

thread la thedi thedi - thedarahae peirya velaiya pochu..
apadi busy a iruku IR threads.... :D

Nice Description about Mayamalawa Gowla and Vagulabaranam.

am listening - Enna petha..

Thanks for karakatakari....

suresh - about Raja

80s Raaja - 90s Raaja - 2000 Raaja - 2010 Raja

ipadithan solla mudiyum.

So 90s Raaja - 80s la illaiyae.... 80s Raaja vera..
ana

Mayamalava Gowla yum Vagulabaranamum iruku suresh...

list dhan podanam....

enaku theirnja 80s Vagulabaranam

Un ennam engae engae - Thambi pondati

idhu 80s Vagulabaranam of Raja

[tvsankar]

suresh,
am listening - Enga ooru

Frankly spekaing. indha padam vandha apo
ivvalavu inspire pannalai suresh..

ipo dhan inspire panradhu.....

IR songs ellam - jilebi or pickle madhiri

soak soak aga than taste theriyum........


Or
Fruits mahdiri - kaaya irukara kani.......

kaniyaga aanal dhanae taste theiryum........ :D

[irir123]

Edho mOgam , despite being a product of early 80's, has excellent recording / stereophonic distribution etc. I've placed it in a CD among jAnE do nA, cheeni kum hai, bAtEin, kaiyeththA kombaththu, dheemi dheemi, sArAh yEh Alam (all post 2000 songs, with decent recording) and still it does not sound out of place (unlike 'endRendRum AnandhamE' from same time period of 'EdhO mOgam', whose recording sounds pathetic and mono as well).

A song that obtained appreciation for IR from the likes of RDB ("Raja is a decade ahead of us") & Paul Mauriat!

நல்ல வேளை அருமையான ஒலிப்பதிவு இந்தப்பாட்டுக்குக்கிடைத்தது :-)

There are quite a few albums from the early 1980s that had good recording quality - one of them being "TIK TIK TIK" original LP!! not the cassette version - the sound of the 'mirudhang' percussion from 'poo malarndhida' in the original LP, I recall was very crystal clear, even then (I was a little little boy then, more fascinated by the sounds of basslines without even realizing that it was the bass line that gave the effect/tempo to most IR's songs) - I remember that TIK TIK TIK, NIZHALGAL et al were as much a rage in chennai, as was BONEY M and ABBA at that time!!

[jaiganes]

Continuing on our efforts to decode Raja (not fossible but ...)

There are not many movies wherein the MD uses the same raga or its close cousin to convey different emotions. I am not talking about the same song sung in happy and sad mood. Those were 'bahe haat ka khel' for our older MDs. (For those who don't know Hindi, it means they could do it with their left hand.) Raja, his predecessors and his successors have done those. I am thinking of two totally different songs from the same movie having the same raga (or a very closely allied raga) but giving rise to totally different emotional experience.

I will not list 'Sundari' and 'Yamunai Atrile' from Dhalapathi (both based on Kalyani / Yamuna Kalyani) here since both are love songs.

The one movie where I saw Raja use Mayamalavagowla and the closely allied raga, Vakulabaranam, was in the Malayalam movie, 'Ponmudipuzhayorathu'. Mayamalavagowla is used in the highly popular 'oru chiri kandal'. This is a typical love song.

Check this out at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwG7li3mkQA

Raja, in the same movie, uses Vakulabaranam, which sounds very close to Mayamalavagowla and creates a totally different feel. The song is 'Ammayennu Vaaku'. Listen to it at:

http://www.raaga.com/channels/malayalam/searchresults.asp?search=ponmudi&Lang=M&search_fld=ALBUM

I thought that this was the first time he was doing this but saw that he also does this in Karagatakkakari.

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00276.html

Please check out the songs 'enna petha' in which Raja sings a philosophical song based on Mayamalavagowla and Tippu and Manjari sing 'EngaOoru' which seems to be based on Vakulabaranam. Here he inverts the emotions. In 'Ponmudipuzhayorathu', Mayamalavagowla is used for love and Vakulabaranam for giving a philosophical slant whereas in 'Karagatakkari' he does the opposite.

Has Raja tried something like this in 80s? Will be nice to know.

Regarding 'enga ooru laila' - another song you can add to that list is 'Sivakaami nenappinile' from KiLippechu ketka vaa. Chirpy song based out of supposedly serious raaga.

As far as lyrics of 'ennai petha aatha' song, nice prophetic lyrics
'veedellaam TV'
'veedhiyile kuppai'.

something writer Jeyamohan has been writing off late with a lot of fervour.

[eagle]

As far as lyrics of 'ennai petha aatha' song, nice prophetic lyrics
'veedellaam TV'
'veedhiyile kuppai'.


appdiyellama varigal varuthu indha pattula? (ramarajan song?..)

[jaiganes]

As far as lyrics of 'ennai petha aatha' song, nice prophetic lyrics
'veedellaam TV'
'veedhiyile kuppai'.


appdiyellama varigal varuthu indha pattula? (ramarajan song?..)

npe different song different film - karagaattakkaari 2005
ennai petha aathannu esai eduththu paatha song.

[Sureshs65]

True Jai. Nice lyrics. Infact Raja sings with so much fervour that I wanted to point this song to app_eng and tell him that Raja's thullal is still present :D

[Sureshs65]

...and ensure we don't recommend 'enga ooru laila' to irir123 since it contains lot of 'jinku cha' :lol:

[eagle]

...and ensure we don't recommend 'enga ooru laila' to irir123 since it contains lot of 'jinku cha' :lol:

ஏன்?... எதுக்கு இப்படி?.... ஆரம்பத்துலேர்ந்து ஆரம்பிக்கீறிங்க? :D

[baroque]

For Suresh,
Same tune (in raga melody) for different bhavas in a same movie.
I am immersed in the emotional melodies of R.V.Udhaya Kumar with Ilayaraja hits.
ejaman is one of the fine 90s movie from him other than kizhakku vaasal, chinna kounder etc..
Oru naalum unnai...(romantic), nilave mugam kaattu...(pathos) same tunes(sindhu bhairavi tunes).

will post more as I tumble down.
vinatha.

[jaiganes]

For Suresh,
Same tune (in raga melody) for different bhavas in a same movie.
I am immersed in the emotional melodies of R.V.Udhaya Kumar with Ilayaraja hits.
ejaman is one of the fine 90s movie from him other than kizhakku vaasal, chinna kounder etc..
Oru naalum unnai...(romantic), nilave mugam kaattu...(pathos) same tunes(sindhu bhairavi tunes).

will post more as I tumble down.
vinatha.

Among all RV Udhayakumar Raaja combination film songs, the one I hold very close to my heart is from one of their weakest movies - Nandhavanath Theru.
The song is 'VeLLi nilave'. There is a comforting jeevan in that song that I have not been able to place from where it is coming from. Is it from the simple lyrics or the tune or the music or the rhythms or the singers (SPB & Uma Ramanan).

[baroque]

Nandhavana theru....karthik movie.
mmm...
Few weeks back in ROS thread we were talking about Raga pilu lullabies along with chinnaththaayaval..... IR , dheere se aaja.....chitalkar.

I saw Nandhavana theru music CDs in my local video/ cd shops..'must go bin' :) even last week.
விரலில் சுருதி மீட்டவா...சித்ரா's raga சிந்து பைரவி.
don't forget another Karthik movie from Udhayakumar & Ilayaraja combo..PONNUMANI. :musicsmile:
vinatha.

[Sureshs65]

Vinatha,

Very true about 'Ejaman'. Whenever I think of that movie I think of the Sindhu Bhairavi ragam. Both the songs you mentioned as excellent ones.

My own feeling is that if we look deep we may get more such Sindhubhairavi or Keeravani in the same movie. Raja uses these scales quite often.

[baroque]

Great :)
vinatha.

[eagle]

This thread is very important one.... i request all of you to give inputs... even if its emotional level how Raaja changed your perception thorough out the time period... because so far we have concentrated only on nostalgic aspect...

[Bala (Karthik)]

Among all RV Udhayakumar Raaja combination film songs, the one I hold very close to my heart is from one of their weakest movies - Nandhavanath Theru.
The song is 'VeLLi nilave'. There is a comforting jeevan in that song that I have not been able to place from where it is coming from. Is it from the simple lyrics or the tune or the music or the rhythms or the singers (SPB & Uma Ramanan).
:exactly:

[raajarasigan]

Among all RV Udhayakumar Raaja combination film songs, the one I hold very close to my heart is from one of their weakest movies - Nandhavanath Theru.
The song is 'VeLLi nilave'. There is a comforting jeevan in that song that I have not been able to place from where it is coming from. Is it from the simple lyrics or the tune or the music or the rhythms or the singers (SPB & Uma Ramanan).
:exactly:
I was NOT a great fan of this song during my school days (when it was released).. after a loooooong time, I listened to this song... definetly SPB's singing boosted its success...

if you see the picturization at the end of the song, ellarum varisaiya saapida ukkarauvaanga.. appo Herione oru "CHINNA" carrierla saapadu poduvaainga.. :D still remember that...

[Sanjeevi]

Velli NilavE was a super hit song those days.

[jaiganes]

I am right now immersed in 'Saami kitte solli vechu' from aavarampoo.
It is the mirror image of 'kodiyile malliyapooo' in terms of context, approach to fusion, arrangement - it is as if Raaja calls for the orchestra - every one is ready with anticipation of kodiyile malliyapoo kind of song for another sea shore romance - and then just like the cards being shuffled, Raja shuffles the deck completely and provides a totally different set of cards and that is the 1990s style of Raja fusion....
Absolutely stunning is one word. Every plucking of the guitar and the Cello is different and sounds noticeably different. I have to listen more and write more on this beauty.

[eagle]

I am right now immersed in 'Saami kitte solli vechu' from aavarampoo.
It is the mirror image of 'kodiyile malliyapooo' in terms of context, approach to fusion, arrangement - it is as if Raaja calls for the orchestra - every one is ready with anticipation of kodiyile malliyapoo kind of song for another sea shore romance - and then just like the cards being shuffled, Raja shuffles the deck completely and provides a totally different set of cards and that is the 1990s style of Raja fusion....
Absolutely stunning is one word. Every plucking of the guitar and the Cello is different and sounds noticeably different. I have to listen more and write more on this beauty.

நல்லா கேளுங்க... கேட்டுட்டு எழுதுங்க... பாலை நில காதல் பொதுவானது இரண்டிற்கும் அல்லவா? ... நாம் ராஜாவின் இசையை ஒரு சில பரிமாணங்களில் புரிந்து கொண்டு அபிப்ராயங்களை எழுதுகிறோம்... கொஞ்ச நாள் முன்பு ஒரு பாரத நாட்டியக்கலைஞர் ராஜாவின் இசையை பற்றி முற்றிலும் வேறு ஒரு கண்ணோட்டத்தோடு விளக்கியபோது புரிந்தது ஒன்றுதான்...மேதை என்ற அடைமொழி ஒருவருக்கு பொருந்தும் என்றால் அது ராஜாவுக்கு மட்டும்தான்....

[Sureshs65]

'sami kitte solli'. I too have been listening to this album because Aditya music released it and I bought it recently :) The album has some amazing numbers. Was Fazil the director of this?

Need to write more about Raja's arrangements in Telugu in late 90s and 2000s. As oosual time problem.

[jaiganes]

'sami kitte solli'. I too have been listening to this album because Aditya music released it and I bought it recently :) The album has some amazing numbers. Was Fazil the director of this?

Need to write more about Raja's arrangements in Telugu in late 90s and 2000s. As oosual time problem.

Dir is bharathan (who later directed Tevar Magan)

[Vivasaayi]

I am right now immersed in 'Saami kitte solli vechu' from aavarampoo.
It is the mirror image of 'kodiyile malliyapooo' in terms of context, approach to fusion, arrangement - it is as if Raaja calls for the orchestra - every one is ready with anticipation of kodiyile malliyapoo kind of song for another sea shore romance - and then just like the cards being shuffled, Raja shuffles the deck completely and provides a totally different set of cards and that is the 1990s style of Raja fusion....
Absolutely stunning is one word. Every plucking of the guitar and the Cello is different and sounds noticeably different. I have to listen more and write more on this beauty.

in "saami kitta solli" - lyrics almost syncs with tune and plays as another instrument...

if it was written for tune :clap: - it synchs with the tune seamlessly...especially charanams

[suresh]

"Aavarampoo" was Bharathan's reprise of his 1980 Malayalam blockbuster "Thakara" (story & screenplay: Padmarajan) that had Prathap Pothen in the lead. Nedumudi Venu's masterly performance of Chellappanasari pushed even the unabashed sexuality in the background. Goundamani did a surprisingly decent job of the same role in the Tamil version that, though a moderate performer at the B.O., will be remembered for one of the best soundtracks of that decade.

Vivasaayi, there are much more Raaja songs with equal or more lyric-tune fidelity than "Sami Kitta". Sample - "Naan erikkarai melirindhu ettu dhisai paarthirundhen", the KJY/Swarnalatha duet from Chinnathayi (1992), a smooth as silk, breezy duet that's playing as I type.

[Sureshs65]

Thanks Suresh for the info (Feels like I am thanking myself :lol: )

Was listening to "awarampoo' and 'chembaruthi' today morning and what an experience it has been. Lovely songs from both films. 'awarampoo' is magic.

[Plum]

Suresh(not 65) - do you have previous in the hub?

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

I think he has. Otherwise I would have got that name :D

BTW, is it the same Suresh who wrote that touching post regarding 'ppove poo chooda vaa'?

[Plum]

Suresh(65) I the reason I asked was to ask the same question you askped - is this the poove poocoodavaa suresh :-)

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

I knew that was reason you were asking and that is why I posted about the song. We are all getting very predictable and therefore very old :lol:

[Sureshs65]

Ok, now getting back to the title of this thread. (I know eagle must be really frustrated seeing this thread go everywhere except where desired by him :D )

One thing about Raja's music which has not changed over the decades is the ability of the song to stand the test of time. Now don't get me wrong. I am not talking about the song lasting for 50 yrs or 100 yrs or so. I don't know if they would and anyway I will not be around to check that theory :) What I mean here is that however long a song be you never get bored!! I hear lot of the new songs. Maybe it is the constant rhythm in the background or the very simplistic charanams or whatever else, by the time the song is the second stanza a sense of tedium sets in. If you are driving your car and unconsciously listening to these songs, the general feeling I get is, "What? The song is still not done!!!" It never happens to me with a Raja song, be it two stanzas, be it three stanzas or more. When driving I suddenly join the song in some place involuntarily. Some classic examples of songs which are long and still sustain your interest are: 'sendazham poovil', 'ilamai enum poon katru', 'karumathur kaatukulle'.

If you see the program which SPB is hosting in Telugu, you can see why the songs don't sound boring even if the length is more. SPB tells a contestant the Raja never tunes two lines the same. There will be some minor change atleast. Added to it he deliberately keeps breaking the rhythm, moving the starting point of the song and gives great interludes that tedium never sets in. This knack is not something every MD knows and even in some of the very famous MDs, you find some songs being too long and you are tired by the end of it!!

CSR once remarked that Raja songs are of two varieties, one which you are hearing continuously and one which you are yet to hear continuously :D While I agree with it largely, many may not agree. What I have seen is this: You either skip a Raja song right in the beginning or if you are into the song, you listen to it completely. You never feel that, let me listen to the first stanza and skip!!! That has been my experience. What has been yours?

[Plum]

Plum,

I knew that was reason you were asking and that is why I posted about the song. We are all getting very predictable and therefore very old :lol:

adhu sari - I consider myself a old in TF forum but indha forum-la - with chechis and chettans(you, app) around - i yam still a young-nga

[eagle]

You either skip a Raja song right in the beginning or if you are into the song, you listen to it completely. You never feel that, let me listen to the first stanza and skip!!! That has been my experience. What has been yours?

Most definitely true... lot of songs from him which we yet to hear completely mostly screwed up by lyrics.. still contains awesome interludes, musical arrangements... sometime i need to close my ears or lower volume during the vocals and just listen to the music alone...we can start a separate thread for these songs... :idea:

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

Yup. Everything is relative. (Ask the first family of T Nadu :lol:)

But when even our King of Erotica (Bala) can be made to feel old by people like equanimus, you have no chance :D

[Sureshs65]

... or to paraphrase you Plum, all of us are saved by Usha Akka :)

[Plum]

King of Erotica (Bala)
idhu nallA irukku KoE Bala. Bookmarked for future use.

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

I didn't coin it. He coined it himself :D

[tvsankar]

Cholam vedhaikiyilae

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K0cO0qJltk&feature=related

indha iR dhan

Maha Ganapathim - Sindhu Biravi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9su0Tj8wec

Creativity - idhu irundhal dhan Best Music Director aga iruka mudiyum...
BUt

IR oda Special

Reality and Nativity........

indha IR ai gavaninga.. iNniki varaikum...