Kamalhassan's Ideology in his films

[groucho070]

And why "Christian" Fletcher? Why not David or Keith or Duncan? ChristianinAlE ulagathai azhikka nenaikkaravangannu kAtta dhAne apdi pEru vechAr?)I thought it was a nod to Brando's Fletcher Christian in Mutiny On the Bounty, which was about a certain breadfruit incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher_Christian) :P

[P_R]

Maruthanayakam was a costly lesson to KH, and he doesnt dare to offend the sentiments of the other dominant castes anymore.
kalyan, you are jumping from conclusion to conclusion here (and this won't go down well with Plum, who holds the copyright for the that :-) ).

AFAIK MarudhanAyakam was shelved for financial reasons. Pokhran, phoren producer pulling out etc. Now pulling together the time, feel, looks and effort for such an effort is a bigger ask than what it would've been 12 years back. I don't think it was fearing the opposition of thEvars.

[P_R]

But Balachander has never forsaken his religious identity.

when you still are a part of a religion/community and the negative feedback you give to them will often be taken as a constructive criticism which unfortunately is not the case with KH.

Ok then by this logic Kamal cannot criticize Muslims. :-)

[Plum]

And why "Christian" Fletcher? Why not David or Keith or Duncan? ChristianinAlE ulagathai azhikka nenaikkaravangannu kAtta dhAne apdi pEru vechAr?)I thought it was a nod to Brando's Fletcher Christian in Mutiny On the Bounty, which was about a certain breadfruit incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher_Christian) :P

groucho, nInga vEra seriousA answer paNNikittirukkInga :roll: :lol:
(thread-ai muzhusA flow-la padinga!)

[groucho070]

Padicchen. Remba suvarasiyamaa irunthathu. My knowledge on some of the subject talked about is poor.

But this kinda digressive discussion sure would benefit Small/Medium Thread (SMT) owners like HR and I :D

[P_R]

Small/Medium Thread (SMT) owners :lol:

[kalyan]

AFAIK MarudhanAyakam was shelved for financial reasons. Pokhran, phoren producer pulling out etc. Now pulling together the time, feel, looks and effort for such an effort is a bigger ask than what it would've been 12 years back. I don't think it was fearing the opposition of thEvars.

P_R,

Neenga romba appAvingO :lol2:

[Anban]

AFAIK MarudhanAyakam was shelved for financial reasons. Pokhran, phoren producer pulling out etc. Now pulling together the time, feel, looks and effort for such an effort is a bigger ask than what it would've been 12 years back. I don't think it was fearing the opposition of thEvars.

P_R,

Neenga romba appAvingO :lol2: kalyan is right.. financial reasons ellaam illa PR..

[kalyan]

But Balachander has never forsaken his religious identity.

when you still are a part of a religion/community and the negative feedback you give to them will often be taken as a constructive criticism which unfortunately is not the case with KH.

Ok then by this logic Kamal cannot criticize Muslims. :-)

P_R<

I was very clear :) . the following was my stand right from the beginning.

1) If you want to offer constructive criticism, you can continue as a part of the community and criticise, even if you dont fully agree with their interpretation of God. You lose your right to offer 'constructive criticism' for a community once when you are no longer a part of it.

2) If you are forsaking a religion on the basis that you have come to the conclusion that there is no god whatsoever, then at least maintain uniformity with your criticism thereafter.

3) An atheist who keeps speaking about atheism through whatever the media resources available to him is only as bad as a tele evangelist, the only thing is that he is advertising / promoting a different brand of product.

[kalyan]

AFAIK MarudhanAyakam was shelved for financial reasons. Pokhran, phoren producer pulling out etc. Now pulling together the time, feel, looks and effort for such an effort is a bigger ask than what it would've been 12 years back. I don't think it was fearing the opposition of thEvars.

P_R,

Neenga romba appAvingO :lol2: kalyan is right.. financial reasons ellaam illa PR..

Thanks for the clarification, Anban :)

[P_R]

AFAIK MarudhanAyakam was shelved for financial reasons. Pokhran, phoren producer pulling out etc. Now pulling together the time, feel, looks and effort for such an effort is a bigger ask than what it would've been 12 years back. I don't think it was fearing the opposition of thEvars.

P_R,

Neenga romba appAvingO :lol2: kalyan is right.. financial reasons ellaam illa PR..
Oh ok ! :oops: News to me.
Sorry and Thanks Kalyan.

[kalyan]

Sorry and Thanks Kalyan.

:oops: PR, neither have you said anything wrong nor I did do you any favour. Pls delete the quoted line. :D
Thanks. ( I will delete this too)

[Anban]

But Balachander has never forsaken his religious identity.

when you still are a part of a religion/community and the negative feedback you give to them will often be taken as a constructive criticism which unfortunately is not the case with KH.

Ok then by this logic Kamal cannot criticize Muslims. :-)

P_R<

I was very clear :) . the following was my stand right from the beginning.

1) If you want to offer constructive criticism, you can continue as a part of the community and criticise, even if you dont fully agree with their interpretation of God. You lose your right to offer 'constructive criticism' for a community once when you are no longer a part of it.

2) If you are forsaking a religion on the basis that you have come to the conclusion that there is no god whatsoever, then at least maintain uniformity with your criticism thereafter.

3) An atheist who keeps speaking about atheism through whatever the media resources available to him is only as bad as a tele evangelist, the only thing is that he is advertising / promoting a different brand of product. Kalyan,

Kamal is consistent, atleast statistically.. criticisms/community-population will be more or less constant across various communities...

http://www.barghouti.com/islam/meaning.html

kindly see the meaning of Islam..

ridiculing religion is different from ridiculing ridiculing religious beliefs and practices which are extra-additions to the real thing..

Kamal is the guy who wrote the lines "marumurai varuvathaai solli maainthavar vanthatheyy illai..."

I dont think tele evangelist is a gud comparison here..


sontha karuththa sonnaa thappu illai.. inge avaru onnum vyaabaaram pannalaye... DGS Dhinakaran, Paul etc Benz car-la thaan poraangalaam..

[P_R]

Kalyan, I jumped to the conclusion that you are jumping to conclusions. adhukku thaan. oru varalaatru aavaNamA, sabaikkuRippula appidiyE irukkattum.

[Anban]

AFAIK MarudhanAyakam was shelved for financial reasons. Pokhran, phoren producer pulling out etc. Now pulling together the time, feel, looks and effort for such an effort is a bigger ask than what it would've been 12 years back. I don't think it was fearing the opposition of thEvars.

P_R,

Neenga romba appAvingO :lol2: kalyan is right.. financial reasons ellaam illa PR..
Oh ok ! :oops: News to me.
Sorry and Thanks Kalyan. Sujatha told this explicitly in an article/interview ...

"antha samoogathula irukkura mukkiyaama makkal Kamal evvalavu solliyum othukkave illa.. " or something like that...

[Anban]

""மருதநாயகம் என்ற ஒரு அருமையான ஸ்கிரிப்ட் செய்து படப்பிடிப்பு கூட துவங்கியது. யுசுப்கான் என்பவனின் கதை. மதுரை நவாபாக ராபர்ட் க்ளைவின் காலத்தில் ஆட்சி செய்தவன்.
வெள்ளைக்காரர்களுக்கு போர்க்காலத்தில் சரக்கு கட்த்திய பிறகு அவர்களுக்கு தென்மாநிலங்களில் வரி வசூல் செய்ய உதவி, கவர்னர் பதவி பெற்று பிறகு வெள்ளைக்காரர்களையே எதிர்த்துக் கொண்டு தன்னிச்சையாக மதுரை நவாபாக நியமித்துக்கொண்டு வெள்ளையன் கோபத்துக்குள்ளகி தூக்கு தண்டனை விதிக்கப்பட்டு மதுரைக் கோட்டைக்குள்ளிருந்து போரிட்டு மாண்ட ஒரு மாவீரனின் கதை அது.

கான்சாகிப் ண்டை என்ற நாட்டுப்புறக்கதைப் பாடலும் ரைலண்ட் கில் எழுதிய வாழ்க்கைச் சரித்திரத்திலும் ஆராய்ச்சி செய்து திரைக்கதை பண்ணியிருந்தோம். படப்பிடிப்பு துவங்கியது. எலிசபெத் ராணி அதைத் துவக்கி வைத்தார். அரை மணி நேர படமும் தயாரானது. விதி மீண்டும் மெல்ல நகைத்தது.

அந்தக் கதையில் தேவர் சமுதாயத்திற்கு இழுக்காக பாட்சிகள் இருப்பதாக யாரோ வேண்டாதவர் புரளி கட்டிவிட்டதில் என்னதான் கமல் சமாதானம் சொன்னாலும் அந்த முக்கியான சமுதாயத்தில் முக்கியமானவர்கள் சமாதானமாகவில்லை. மருதநாயகம் அதனால் கைவிடப்பட்டது.

அதுமட்டும் முடிவு பெற்றிருந்தால் லகானுக்கு முன் வெளிவந்திருக்கும் படம் நிச்சயம் ஆஸ்கார் போயிருக்கும் வென்றிருக்கும்.
"""

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/archives/Tamil_Films/t9414_News_and_Updates_on_Kalaignani_Dr__Kamal_Haa saR___.html

[P_R]

btw pulithEvan is not likely to be the only challenge (idhellAm yOsikkAmayA ezhudhirippAnga).

From what I have read about Yusuf Khan (adhAvadhu, the wikipedia page), it must have been quite challenging to portray him as a 'hero' in a way Tamil audiences may emphathize with.

[kalyan]

Kalyan,

Kamal is consistent, atleast statistically.. criticisms/community-population will be more or less constant across various communities...

http://www.barghouti.com/islam/meaning.html

kindly see the meaning of Islam..

ridiculing religion is different from ridiculing ridiculing religious beliefs and practices which are extra-additions to the real thing..

Kamal is the guy who wrote the lines "marumurai varuvathaai solli maainthavar vanthatheyy illai..."

I dont think tele evangelist is a gud comparison here..


sontha karuththa sonnaa thappu illai.. inge avaru onnum vyaabaaram pannalaye... DGS Dhinakaran, Paul etc Benz car-la thaan poraangalaam..

Clarification No.1: May be, my choice of the word 'tele evangelist' was not very appropriate. I didnt refer to the preachers from only one religion or from only one family. I included all the religious preachers, who spend more time in recruiting more heads for their organisation rather than offering solace to their own brethern (which is what they are originally supposed to do)

Clarification No.2: I dont want to get dragged into 'meaning of islam' etc. We are just discussing about KH's ideologies expressed in media.

Of course, if he can criticise either 'principles' or 'practices' of a religion, he can criticise the 'principles' and 'practices' of other religions too.

Clarification No 3: "marumurai varuvathaai solli maainthavar vanthatheyy illai..."

I am seeing this in a entirely different light now, until now i have thought it refers to as rebirth, reincarnations, punarjanma of the Hindu faith. You have a point, this could have also been a covert dig at 'the resurrection'. But it is still pretty covert since a certain amount of ambiguity exists. :notworthy:

[equanimus]

Kalyan,
I'm afraid your argument doesn't make much sense. Which community is Kamal not a part of? And how exactly? Is it simply because he isn't a believer? How does merely expressing one's lack of belief take one out of the community one otherwise belongs to?

[kalyan]

Kalyan,
I'm afraid your argument doesn't make much sense. Which community is Kamal not a part of? And how exactly? Is it simply because he isn't a believer? How does merely expressing one's lack of belief take one out of the community one otherwise belongs to?

KH has admitted so many times that he is neither a Brahmin nor a Hindu. One of his very popular statement was 'My father was a Brahmin. I am not one"

[equanimus]

But saying that and holding it on principle, however much sincerely, doesn't simply mean he doesn't belong to "the larger community" (whatever it may be) as such. There are so many markers to one's identity and not all of it is a simple matter of choice. Some of the most immediate markers of Kamal's identity are squarely Tamil brahmin-esque.

And Kamal is not "admitting" it as much as realigning himself with it. In fact, there's very little to "admit" here! One "admits" only what's already suspected of one in some sense.

[equanimus]

And what is my point? I think all these allegations of Kamal being anti-brahmin and anti-Hindu (while we're at it, shouldn't one also explain the difference?) is paranoiac. I simply maintain that there's nothing in his work or even his offline persona that suggests this.

[kalyan]

But saying that and holding it on principle, however much sincerely, doesn't simply mean he doesn't belong to "the larger community" (whatever it may be) as such. There are so many markers to one's identity and not all of it is a simple matter of choice. Some of the most immediate markers of Kamal's identity are squarely Tamil brahmin-esque.

And Kamal is not "admitting" it as much as realigning himself with it. In fact, there's very little to "admit" here! One "admits" only what's already suspected of one in some sense.

Kamal had reiterated the above mentioned statement quite a few times in different interviews. Frankly, neither KH is interested to show himself as a brahmin / hindu, nor are the brahmins interested to show him as one among them. then how does he continue to belong to 'the larger community'? just because the others feel he is still one?

[kalyan]

And what is my point? I think all these allegations of Kamal being anti-brahmin and anti-Hindu (while we're at it, shouldn't one also explain the difference?) is paranoiac. I simply maintain that there's nothing in his work or even his offline persona that suggests this.

you are free to decide it for yourself. the proof is in front of you :)

[equanimus]

Kamal had reiterated the above mentioned statement quite a few times in different interviews. Frankly, neither KH is interested to show himself as a brahmin / hinduI'm not saying he is interested in it, but that it's part of his identity anyway. Of course he's interested in making moves that distance him from the identity (and of course he'll keep reiterating it!), but that doesn't mean he simply ceases to be one.

nor are the brahmins interested to show him as one among them. then how does he continue to belong to 'the larger community'? just because the others feel he is still one?"The brahmins" are not a one-dimensional group. Just like any other caste group. I suppose there are a lot of brahmins who see Kamal as "one among them," irrespective of whether he is a believer, considers himself a Hindu etc. or not.

And who are "the others" here? Those who aren't brahmins or Hindus (the difference still needs to be elucidated!)? If yes, the question perhaps to be asked is, if neither of them think Kamal belongs to their group, where does he actually belong?

I think it's absurd to see any society as an entity that's neatly divided into various teams like in a sports tournament.

[kalyan]

I guess its time to include a poll in this thread. It need not only be about theist-atheist and so on. suggestions are welcome. :)

[equanimus]

And what is my point? I think all these allegations of Kamal being anti-brahmin and anti-Hindu (while we're at it, shouldn't one also explain the difference?) is paranoiac. I simply maintain that there's nothing in his work or even his offline persona that suggests this.

you are free to decide it for yourself. the proof is in front of you :)But I hope you noticed that I didn't use the term "anti-brahminic." There is anti-brahminism in some of his films (and of course there is a general sense of it in his public persona as well), but they don't have an anti-brahmin character. There is a significant difference, even if it's a bit cliched to say so.

[equanimus]

What is the most obvious but unsaid truth here? One of the foremost reasons for characterizing Kamal as anti-brahmin is that he is a brahmin by birth. It's not hard to see this at all. There are a lot of people who have criticised brahminism. What makes Kamal special at all?

Others denouncing the traditional values of a caste/religion is one thing, but one of their own doing it is something else. So even some nominal gestures ('nominal' with respect to the ideological discourse in the larger society) are usually blown out of proportions. And Kamal is someone who has actually placed some nontrivial objections to the brahminic values. This is how, I think, we need to understand this.

[kid-glove]

I feel Kamal don't hurt the brahmin sentiments much when he works with those people..
Especially K.Balachander, Singeetham Srinivasa Rao, Crazy Mohan(he is brahmin rite? :oops: ),
Gautham Menon.



balachander's moviesd has alots of anti-forward class touches...

unnal mudiyum thambi gemeni charecter, VNS poornam charecter...

But Balachander has never forsaken his religious identity.

when you still are a part of a religion/community and the negative feedback you give to them will often be taken as a constructive criticism which unfortunately is not the case with KH.

Kalyan, you need to reassess and revisit their films if you believe KB's criticism is automatically constructive, let alone sincere, than KH.

This has segued for long, but I find these allegations 'paranoiac' in deed. Intensity towards Kamal's views of Hindus in general and Brahmins in particular, stems precisely because the dissenting polemist happens to be, in birth and flesh, formally akin.

[Anban]

Kalyan,

you are showing some bias.. You say its ambiguous and hence covert..

But you are able to decode whatever coded message Kamal puts in his movies against hindus/brahmins.. Those messages were also supposed to be ambiguous for the common man, but you are too intelligent..

[P_R]

Kalyan, you need to reassess and revisit their films if you believe KB's criticism is automatically constructive, let alone sincere, than KH.

Can you pl elaborate on this one?

[equanimus]

In fact, romba bhavyamA sonnadhA dhaan thONichu with Somayajulu being 'respected' till the very end etc.Exactly. And I think this is true to an even greater extent for Bharathi Raja's vEdham pudhidhu. There's a sense of going the extra mile in these films as if to say, "oh these good people, if only they'd let go off that one last bit of 'bad habit' that is caste discrimination!" In comparison, I think the critiques of brahminism in some of Kamal's films, and to a lesser extent even Balachander's (who has always displayed a sort of twisted schizophrenic mindset when it comes to embracing liberal values), are sharper. It's perhaps understandable considering that the latter two are brahmins themselves and hence didn't have the burden of "being nice." (On Balachander though, one thing I didn't realise until late was that two of his famous films in this respect, vaRumaiyin niRam sivappu and unnAL mudiyum thambi, involved the Pillai caste and not brahmins!)

[P_R]

In Rudraveena it is a brahmin family though. In UMT they changed it to a piLLai family. Wonder why.

[P_R]

And I think this is true to an even greater extent for Bharathi Raja's vEdham pudhidhu. There's a sense of going the extra mile in these films as if to say, "oh these good people, if only they'd let go off that one last bit of 'bad habit' that is caste discrimination!" In comparison, I think the critiques of brahminism in some of Kamal's films, and to a lesser extent even Balachander's , are sharper.
Which of course is because of the insider-outsider difference you mentioned.

Vedam Pudhidhu has a funny example of 'socialism of censure' - which perhaps is the 'ideal' being suggested here: The panchayath scene where the aSAri is ribbed by the thEvar, who in course of his comeback pokes the Iyer, who drags in the dalits who take a dig at the converted Christian and babel ensues.

[equanimus]

Oh okay. Incidentally, I was wondering about the Telugu version a while back -- that it could have been a brahmin family in Telugu. Not that I've any familiarity with how an orthodox saivap piLLai household would look, but I (earlier) thought UMT's setting was clearly modeled to evoke a brahmin milieu. I don't mean to imply he was indeed being protective of brahmins, by the way, but it's a rather strange move to make (in not just one but two films).

[equanimus]

Vedam Pudhidhu has a funny example of 'socialism of censure' - which perhaps is the 'ideal' being suggested here: The panchayath scene where the aSAri is ribbed by the thEvar, who in course of his comeback pokes the Iyer, who drags in the dalits who take a dig at the converted Christian and babel ensues.Ha ha ha! I don't recall the scene at all. I've a poor memory of the film in general, but remember that the film's 'message' was a fizzle.

[P_R]

I don't mean to imply he was indeed being protective of brahmins, by the way, but it's a rather strange move to make (in not just one but two films).
Vedam Pudhidhu ruffled some feathers. UMT was after that. So perhaps he wanted to avoid possible problems. Just speculating.

[equanimus]

Hmm, possible. One crucial point in 'vEdham pudhidhu' and 'idhu namma ALu' is that both films have a brahmin girl fall in love with a guy outside the caste. Of course, 'idhu namma ALu' goes two steps further. The guy is from a low caste and they also marry.

[Plum]

Feeyaar, the man who made arangetram feared for umt?

Nevertheless, the rules on who can and cannot criticise something is funny.

So Kamal cannot criticise Brahminism because he rejected it? AvLO criticism irukkavE dhAne rejeet paNNApla? Kalyan says he should still conform and be a brahmin and raise criticism. I find this ridiculous. So, you want to set a pigeon hole for rebels, too? Ahn criticise pandravangallAm, indha undiyalla podungappa :lol:

You rebel because you have issues. Those are the issues he is highlighting. Take specific instances where you found the dig unreal or strawmanny. Instead, all that you can say is he kindals brahmins ad nauseum.
Or if I extend, suddenly it shifts to cross kaappathushunu sonnaar, perumal silai kappathudhunnu sollaliye. Those shouldn't even be relevant to discussion on his criticism of brahminism. Take one theme, illustrate with examples without dragging several unrelated threads just because together they add up to a convenient anti hindu narrative. Then we can have a meaningfl discussion

[app_engine]

May be now we can look forward to the springing up of - Rajinikanth's / Vijay's / Surya's / KB's / MR's / BR's / etc's ideology in their respective films - threads in the hub in future:-)

Add to them some polls and the celebration is complete:-)

One thing we can definitely be certain is the impossibility of bringing up one for Sivaji "films" (while it may be possible to bring one up for his personal convictions) :-)

IMO, other than some sugar coated propaganda in MGR films (and some dEvar bakthi / animal films), there hadn't been much preaching in TF. Next to Sivaji's, the KH films are possibly the least preachy (i.e. if we leave out those without mass appeal e.g. Satyaraj / latchiya nadikar and the likes).

Actually KH donned several roles that mouthed "gounderish" statements in a polished way (the nakkal for praying before eating in Satya, for example) :-)

Looking for ideologies in his movies is obviously insulting the "true-to-the-art-kalaignan" IMHO. Ofcourse, some common threads could be seen often (me-the-kAdhal-iLavarasan, romance >1 girl per movie, insist on kiss scene etc).

Other than that, he is clearly in the polished gounder mode (i.e. holy cow slaughter).

Concern for personal safety (as highlighted by irir123 in the post that started all this discussion) is definitely there.

Being an artist and not a politician, he should not be unnecessarily picked on for that (for that matter, every politician is scared for personal safety in the country. More money is possibly invested in such "z" security stuff for politicians than BSF of the country).

If some groups whom he allegedly ridicules cannot take on him with sufficient vigor -legally / illegally etc - so as to restrain him, is it not their problem and not his? (disunity etc)

[Bala (Karthik)]

Exactly. And I think this is true to an even greater extent for Bharathi Raja's vEdham pudhidhu. There's a sense of going the extra mile in these films as if to say, "oh these good people, if only they'd let go off that one last bit of 'bad habit' that is caste discrimination!"
Absolutely! And the hurdles "non-Brahmins" have to cross to deem themselves worthy of membership! The latest example is Yaaradi Nee Mohini. However, nobody from this right wing Hindu group will even be cognizant of all this, let alone have a discourse of it in a forum. When it comes to somebody giving a semblance of a perspective to the minorities, they will be up in arms. Bias and prejudice in its crudest and funniest form. Laughable

P.S: And the biggest irony is that there is a reverse caste equation to all this. Suffice to say that people like Baradiraaja are in a safe haven, and what's more, they will get accolades.... (Plum made this point already)

[Bala (Karthik)]

When was the last time this right wing group denounced any deplorable aspect or act of their own? Nevaire! The gall to question Kamal Haasan appalls!

[Bala (Karthik)]

But I hope you noticed that I didn't use the term "anti-brahminic." There is anti-brahminism in some of his films (and of course there is a general sense of it in his public persona as well), but they don't have an anti-brahmin character. There is a significant difference, even if it's a bit cliched to say so.
Elaborate please...

[Plum]

App, ideology is not just about explicit preaching. And Kamal is definitely not "true to the art blah, art and politics should not mix". Infact, that his polit and social concerns get mixed up in perspective(and reception, too) with personal is what led to this thread.

Eq/Feeyaar, see this is where BR and BR got their accolades. Afterall, bharathiraja did provide a solution in the climax of AO :lol:

[P_R]

KH films are possibly the least preachy
Ah...no !
Subtle and unsubtle pontification konjam thookkalaavE iRukkum.

Most famous example being:

You are hereby suitably censured and urged to attend to agricultural activities and the education of children

Flau, idhai vidavA oru broad based soleesan kodukka mudiyin ?

[app_engine]

Plum, P_R

I think you're making a wholesale opinion based on 2 or 3 of his 100+ movies :-) Unfortunately, I haven't seen some of them (dasA / HR for e.g.)

My opinion is based on the aboorva sahO, MMKR, MP, salangai oli kinds - nothing much of an ideology there (possibly in 99% of his movies). Also, I don't follow much of his "talks" thru stages / media etc.

Anyways, இது ஒரு கருத்து :-)

[app_engine]

And, UPO was just a remake.

Whatever compromises he made compared to wednesday must be due to the fact that he knows about TF audience (who don't have clear-cut vision to distinguish what a movie character speaks v/s what the actor's actual opinion).

'வீட்டுல வந்து குண்டு கிண்டு போட்டுறக்குடாதே'ன்னு கொஞ்சம் மாற்றங்கள் செய்திருக்கக்கூடும். இதப்போயி அவரது ஐடியாலஜி-கிய்டியாலஜின்னுக்கிட்டு (என்பது என் கருத்து) :-)

[app_engine]

Movie making is a business - a pucca commercial businesses of compromises as the risk of loss is simply too high (next only to gambling with one's money).

So, the first ideology is to please theater goers and also not antagonize elements who can "block" theater goers.

Everything else comes after that :-)

(Same goes for many other businesses as well, I've seen staunch believers of one faith conducting festivals / rituals etc of others often contradicting their own - simply for the sake of business. Money is the main ideology of businessmen and everything else comes after that.)

Like one of my co-workers said - he was an engineer who chose to switch to finance career - "economy drives everything"!

[sathya_1979]

Desperation? :lol2: Clever digressions! Nobody (IIRC from Kalyan or Sakala's post) approved / accepted / vouched for unacceptable aspects of a group branded right-wing. The point driven by them was "WHY COULD A SO-CALLED NEUTRAL DON'T HAVE THE GUTS TO KINDAL ADICHICHIFY / DENOUNCE / CONDEMN BLAH BLAH BLAH OF DEPLORABLE ASPECTS BY ALL GROUPS". Or are you saying that the evils / crimes / deplorable acts are done only by one group?
When was the last time we saw detailed reporting of acts of crimes by the holy priests in other groups? When was the last time we hear religious leaders condemn the attrocious acts of their own group? "Provocation is fine, retaliation is deplorable" - Hub's rules and FAQ's must be updated with this golden rule, as this has been the practice in general in most of the threads (Not specific to Mr. Kamal or this topic or this thread).

Start from parotta no: 1 :lol:

[Vivasaayi]

But saying that and holding it on principle, however much sincerely, doesn't simply mean he doesn't belong to "the larger community" (whatever it may be) as such. There are so many markers to one's identity and not all of it is a simple matter of choice. Some of the most immediate markers of Kamal's identity are squarely Tamil brahmin-esque.

And Kamal is not "admitting" it as much as realigning himself with it. In fact, there's very little to "admit" here! One "admits" only what's already suspected of one in some sense.

Kamal had reiterated the above mentioned statement quite a few times in different interviews. Frankly, neither KH is interested to show himself as a brahmin / hindu, nor are the brahmins interested to show him as one among them. then how does he continue to belong to 'the larger community'? just because the others feel he is still one?

really?

[Plum]

sathya, I am tired of repeating myself. andha allegation allegationAvE irukku. modhall it was that, then it was something else, then it was cross kappathudhu, ipdi pala sambandham illAdha noolai kOrthu Kalyan kEkkarArnu solrEn.

EdhAvadhu oNNai theLivA eduthukittu one by one point pOgalAmA? marubadiyum naan kashtapatt pala post pOttavuNE convenientA pudhusa oru "cross kappaathudhu" pointla digress paNNa kUdadhu(You didnt but you didnt participate much) okayvA?

Kamal kitta enna anti brahmin prachnai. Allegation solliyAchu. Chargesheet eduthu vaingappA -apram pEsalAmngarEn.
ok, nAn help pandren

Crime # 1
1) Not Speaking against All Groups

idhai pathi mattum pEsi mudivukku vandhutu adutha crime-ku pOvOmA?

[sathya_1979]

sathya, I am tired of repeating myself. andha allegation allegationAvE irukku. modhall it was that, then it was something else, then it was cross kappathudhu, ipdi pala sambandham illAdha noolai kOrthu Kalyan kEkkarArnu solrEn.

EdhAvadhu oNNai theLivA eduthukittu one by one point pOgalAmA? marubadiyum naan kashtapatt pala post pOttavuNE convenientA pudhusa oru "cross kappaathudhu" pointla digress paNNa kUdadhu(You didnt but you didnt participate much) okayvA?

Kamal kitta enna anti brahmin prachnai. Allegation solliyAchu. Chargesheet eduthu vaingappA -apram pEsalAmngarEn.
ok, nAn help pandren

Crime # 1
1) Not Speaking against All Groups

idhai pathi mattum pEsi mudivukku vandhutu adutha crime-ku pOvOmA?
Plum, I think u missed my last line (Start from parotta No:1) :D

Everbody here know the facts / ideologies / crimes by every other group (Atleast at high level, if not in detail), including one's own group. Hindu / Brahmin'sa avar kuttram kurai solradhaalayo / uyarvaa pEsaradhaalayo oNNum maarida poradhilla. Every individual and every group will have their own share of good deeds and bad deeds.

No group (Atheists, Religious Groups, Right Wing, Left Wing, Eagle Wing etc) is 100% perfect. Aanaa, speaking openly abt one and NOT CONDEMNING OTHERS WITH SAME VIGOR, TONE, LEVEL ETC doesn't cut much ice.

Ennoda theruvula 10 thirudan irundhaa, ellaarum thirudannu solra dhairiyam irundhaa naan oru nErmayaaLan. 2 pEra mattum mEdai pottu thittittu (Open Statements in interviews / Dialogues in movies / Public mockery .....), maththa 8 pErayum veetukkuLa ukkaandhuttu enakku naane thittittu irundhaa (Subtlety, covert message, hidden portrayal ......) angadhaan prachanai.

[sathya_1979]

Plum, my points were never digressive (Please revisit if you have time and patience). I was just stressing and re-iterating on one point.

[Plum]

Ok, that is a very generic statement. Now, illustrate with
1) Examples from his Movies(relevant only for this point - this means "implying that Christian God is powerful" mAdhiri examples solla padAdhu :-) ) where he has <u> Mocked at Specific Brahmin Practices </u>. adhu ennannu modhalla analyse paNNuvOm
2) I understand that the other grouse is his speeches against Brahmins. What? When? How?
3) What specific practices(similar to the ones he criticised brahmins on) that you want him to critcise others?
Why because usually this point is made and then an aggregation of unrelated examples are used as illustration - a poor technique that doenst cut much ice with me.

[Plum]

Plum, my points were never digressive (Please revisit if you have time and patience). I was just stressing and re-iterating on one point.

No I got that. I mentioned you didnt discuss much anyway. My point is that an aggregation of multiple grouses against his various views truns into a generic statement like what you said. I want to get to the bottom of it.

[sathya_1979]

Ok, that is a very generic statement. Now, illustrate with
1) Examples from his Movies(relevant only for this point - this means "implying that Christian God is powerful" mAdhiri examples solla padAdhu :-) ) where he has <u> Mocked at Specific Brahmin Practices </u>. adhu ennannu modhalla analyse paNNuvOm
2) I understand that the other grouse is his speeches against Brahmins. What? When? How?
3) What specific practices(similar to the ones he criticised brahmins on) that you want him to critcise others?
Why because usually this point is made and then an aggregation of unrelated examples are used as illustration - a poor technique that doenst cut much ice with me.
ennoda Class XII or Engineering examsla kooda naan indha maadhiri questions paaththadhilla :lol:

Covering 1&2:
I could not recollect the date of interview / channel / magazine. But, I have witnessed him mock at the practise of wearing sacred thread (This is after year 2000).
This is just one example (oru sOru padham), Kalyan and Sakala may add more.

Reg: point 3 in ur question:
It's not abt the practices alone. But, attrocities suffered by Hindus at the hands of others. For more details, please refer Indian Histroy Books.

[Plum]

pArunga, specificA sollungannu kEttavuNE, I think, I cant remember exactlylAm varudhu pArthingaLA? ;-)

1. enna sonnAr?
2. Was it at a serious ideology level or at a "brahmin mami talk tease" level"

Reg. #3, atrocities suffered by Hindus at othersku appuram varuvOm. Now we are talking about insults to one community.

[sathya_1979]

pArunga, specificA sollungannu kEttavuNE, I think, I cant remember exactlylAm varudhu pArthingaLA? ;-)

1. enna sonnAr?
2. Was it at a serious ideology level or at a "brahmin mami talk tease" level"

Reg. #3, atrocities suffered by Hindus at othersku appuram varuvOm. Now we are talking about insults to one community.
10 varusham munnaadi kudutha interview date eppadinga nyaabagam irukkum?

Also, whether it is ideology level attack or mami level tease - What is the need? And does he have the guts to tease females from other communities? Adhudhaan ennoda kosteen.

[sathya_1979]

If he is talking abt social evils of caste system and the wrong deeds by all castes, I welcome it. But, why mock at beliefs of a group which is no way impacting / insulting to others?

[anbu_kathir]

ridiculing religion is different from ridiculing ridiculing religious beliefs and practices which are extra-additions to the real thing..


I don't agree with this Anban. Where does one really draw the line between religion and its practices/beliefs? Who is Kamal to decide these beliefs or practices or rituals are not important? Adhu avarukku venaa mukkiyam illainnu feel panalaam. Adhukaaga innum illtreating widows, etc etc maadhiri sila outdated concepts ellaatha pathiyum onnum solla koodadhunnu naan sollavarala. But by the Kamal's characters' jibes against religion, avaru adha patthi oru 'scientific' study pannavE illainnu theriyudhu. Why the concepts of astrology, rebirth, etc came up, why one places vermillion, etc etc, what ultimately is the necessity for God/religion, I believe he has simply shot down questions like these without attempting to know anything about them. Or atleast that is what I infer from his characters. This of course is an issue with most theists too, only they are on the other side.




Kamal is the guy who wrote the lines "marumurai varuvathaai solli maainthavar vanthatheyy illai..."


Aamam, idhu avaru eppadi theriyumaam? Eppadi vandha accept pannuvaaraam?

Love and Light.

[Plum]

adhu avar opinion. unga opinion-ai sollaNumnA nInga padam edunga.

[P_R]

But by the Kamal's characters' jibes against religion, avaru adha patthi oru 'scientific' study pannavE illainnu theriyudhu.
That is because his interests are purely social. Not in the pure metaphysical question.

He is interested only to the extent that it affects simple people.
- an old man who chant kanakadArA stotram when in a prison cell. (ஹ்ம்ம்..கொட்டித்து...கூடவே தேளும் கொட்டித்து)

- or a henchman who sees God as a justice-dispenser, and who killed his daughter for his misdeeds, and thus decides to drop his sickle (சாமி எனக்கு நல்ல சாவே குடுக்காது தம்பி)

- an old lady who demands her way to heaven (என் கட்டை மோட்சத்துக்கு போயிரும்)

- as an aging nurse who rails at a God who is not dispensing justice (but even then doesn't seem to suspecting his existence, perhaps the need for bulwark deepens with misery).


Who else has raised these questions or engaged in this type of discourse in tamil film ?

[Plum]

pArunga, specificA sollungannu kEttavuNE, I think, I cant remember exactlylAm varudhu pArthingaLA? ;-)

1. enna sonnAr?
2. Was it at a serious ideology level or at a "brahmin mami talk tease" level"

Reg. #3, atrocities suffered by Hindus at othersku appuram varuvOm. Now we are talking about insults to one community.
10 varusham munnaadi kudutha interview date eppadinga nyaabagam irukkum?

Also, whether it is ideology level attack or mami level tease - What is the need? And does he have the guts to tease females from other communities? Adhudhaan ennoda kosteen.

Again, namma kadhavukku veLilErundhE what is the need-nu kEkka vENAmE? What I meant was what exactly did he say? I am trying to get to the bottom of what exactly is the irritant, remember?
pooNal pathi sonNAr kobam vandhudhungarInga - this is step 1 for me to understand your resentment. Step 2 is enna sonnAr? adhai thAn kEttEn. adhukkappuram avarai eNNai kopparaila pOdaradhA nylon kayirula thonga vudaradhAnnu yOsichu solla vasadhiyA irukkum :)

[anbu_kathir]

adhu avar opinion



That is because his interests are purely social. Not in the pure metaphysical question.
..
Who else has raised these questions or engaged in this type of discourse in tamil film ?


Totally agree. My only grouse is that while his intellectual brilliance is evident from his cinema, his stubbornness towards not learning anything new in religion is equally apparent. (not its historical or social aspects, but the actual religious, spiritual, and metaphysical aspects .. idha seriya purinjakkaadhadhu dhaanE prachanaiyE). To me, his religious opinions are quite similar to the opinion that certain theists have against evolution, without actually bothering to understand any of the scientific reasoning or evidence behind the matter under consideration.

[sathya_1979]

Read Kalyan and Sakala's posts for what he said, not abt the interview matter, but overall. I presume, this discussion is not ONLY abt one statement in an interview.

[Plum]

Ada marubadiyum angeye poreengale? Onnu onna fisal pannuvomnu dhaane sonnen? Modhallaye terms clearA explain paNNEnE? There are several charges being laid here, and purported proof for one charge is being used as evidence for another charge. It doesn't work that way. Its like saying uvar aanar ivar 1985-l thirudinaar so 1995la kolaiyum ivar dhaan panni iruppaar.

Idhai modhalla mudippom. Enna sonnar (excuse my persistence. Blanket level discussions don't do justice. Then it keeps on going to why doesn't he diss muslims. Let's figure what exactly did he say to hurt brahmins first. )

[sathya_1979]

Ur Persistence is on par with Kamal's bashing of Hindus in the name of paguththarivu :D

Regarding examples, excuse my persistence - Please refer Kalyan and Sakala's examples!

[Plum]

No, you brought the pooNal charge. Adhai faisal paNNAma adutha caseku poga mudiyAdhu. kalyan has been very generic throwing one fantastic interpretation after another as proof. Sakala talked about brahmin ladies talk. adhukkum varvOm. But I want to faisal iqbal the pooNal matter first. Again, if you might excuse me, enna sonnAr? because you said you got offended by that speech. So it is presumably not Kalyan or SKV who (have so far confessed) to being offended by THAT speech. So the burden of answer has to lie with you :-)

[P_R]

My only grouse is that while his intellectual brilliance is evident from his cinema, his stubbornness towards not learning anything new in religion is equally apparent. (not its historical or social aspects, but the actual religious, spiritual, and metaphysical aspects .. idha seriya purinjakkaadhadhu dhaanE prachanaiyE).
a_k, idhu prachinaiyE illai.
I don't think, say, a better understanding of the nature of universe, would alter what he has to say.

[anbu_kathir]

My only grouse is that while his intellectual brilliance is evident from his cinema, his stubbornness towards not learning anything new in religion is equally apparent. (not its historical or social aspects, but the actual religious, spiritual, and metaphysical aspects .. idha seriya purinjakkaadhadhu dhaanE prachanaiyE).
a_k, idhu prachinaiyE illai.
I don't think, say, a better understanding of the nature of universe, would alter what he has to say.

I am not talking about KH's personal approach to religion alone. What I said was for the society as a whole. Anyway, understanding the universe is the job of science. Religion, OTOH, is about how the cosmos and its mysteries are related to oneself individually. That, IMHO, has the potential of changing all activities of life.

[sathya_1979]

Plum, i did not get offended by what Mr. Kamal said. I am not the kind who gets provoked by such kind of jibes / mocks. And am not interested in ur verdict / Justifications on the motives behind such talks :D It is not going to change facts, history, Mr. Kamal's views and ideology or mine or urs. I could see we are heading nowhere. Thanks for ur patience and persistence in explaining counter view points :notworthy: If all hubbers are of such breed (explain POV without sweat words, wind up, digression etc), this forum would be a better place to discuss.

[venkkiram]

Plum,

இந்துக்கடவுள்களை நக்கல் செய்தாலும் அதிலும் பாரபட்சம் காட்டுகிறார் கமல் என்ற குற்றத்தை வைக்கிறேன் :)

1) ஏன் கந்தசாமி படையாச்சியை ஒரு வைணவ பக்தனாக காட்டவில்லை? சரி.. வைணவமும் வேண்டாம்.. நடுநிலையா ஒரு அய்யனாரையோ, ஒரு மாரியம்மாவையோ அவரது இறைவனாக காட்டியிருக்கலாம்.. அது ஏன் குறிபார்த்து, "தென்னாடுடைய சிவனே போற்றி!" என சிவபெருமானுக்கு அம்பெய்தல்?

2) ஏன் இந்த நக்கல், நையாண்டி எல்லாம் தேவர் மகனில் வரவில்லை? அங்க மட்டும், கௌதமியிடம் இந்தக் கோயில்லதான் நம்ம கல்யாணம் என ஆசை ஆசையாய் சொல்கிறாரே? மேலும், ஊரே தேர்கூடி இழுக்கும்போதுகூட அங்கே தனது பகுத்தறிவு நக்கலை காட்டவில்லையே?

அன்பே சிவம் என சொன்னதற்கு பதிலா, அன்பே வைணவம் என்று இருந்திருந்தாலோ, காந்தி இறக்கும் தருவாயில் "ஹே ராம்!"ற்கு பதில் "ஹே சிவா!" எனச் சொல்லியிருந்தால் கமல் எப்படி அணுகியிருப்பார் எனவும் Room போட்டு யோசிக்கச் சொல்கிறது!

[P_R]

மாதவ படையாச்சியை
"அன்பே ஒன்பது ரூபாய்" பார்த்தா இப்படிப்பட்டக் குழப்பமெல்லாம் வரும்.

[P_R]

Religion, OTOH, is about how the cosmos and its mysteries are related to oneself individually. That, IMHO, has the potential of changing all activities of life.

Which will take its own sweet time for people to figure out. And while (and possibly even after) that happens, we are still governed by societal norms, which -whether we like it or not - is moved by the religion - as understood by the lowest-common-denominator, enshrined in practices etc. These are the things that I see Kamal reacting to in his films.

[app_engine]

மாதவ படையாச்சியை
"அன்பே ஒன்பது ரூபாய்" பார்த்தா இப்படிப்பட்டக் குழப்பமெல்லாம் வரும்.

:lol:

[Plum]

Sathya, what I was trying to engage into was into a meaningful understanding of which aspect of Kamal, his thoughts and his cinema is deemed as against Brahmins, or indeed, Hinduism. As equa said, I personally don't feel any such.

So I'd really like to see where the other side is coming from. To be frank, Kalyan's examples are not helpful at all :( . Otoh, there are questions that he(kamal, not kalyan) raises which are very, very important - and this within meaningful and engaging cinema - and it saddens me that people refuse to engage with those, because of the ideological divide. And as I see it I am not defending Kamal here(you won't find me around when box office kamal vs rajni rounds are going) but what he represents for me here. Again, the refusal to engage might be because of a triggered reaction to what is taken as a personal affront from what he says. That is precisely why I am interested in knowing the specifics there.

Kalyan, you are free to take up the mantle to articulate your specific grouses :)

Venkkiram, I see small black squares in your post. I am afraid that's how it is going to be for sometime now as I am limited now in access

[venkkiram]

மாதவ படையாச்சியை
"அன்பே ஒன்பது ரூபாய்" பார்த்தா இப்படிப்பட்டக் குழப்பமெல்லாம் வரும்.நன்றி. திருத்திவிட்டேன்.

[sathya_1979]

Plum, thanks for ur reply and PM. Am shopping with wife and kid now :D will reply in detail tonight!

[kalyan]

Had my fellowship exams today. hence couldnt participate in the discussions over the last 24 hours. will join you guys shortly :) :wave:

[m_karthik]

Ok, that is a very generic statement. Now, illustrate with
1) Examples from his Movies(relevant only for this point - this means "implying that Christian God is powerful" mAdhiri examples solla padAdhu :-) ) where he has <u> Mocked at Specific Brahmin Practices </u>. adhu ennannu modhalla analyse paNNuvOm


Some of the things which had Brahmins in poor light.

1. Avvai Shanmugi - The Relation between the Shanmugi and Mudaliar...
2. Dasavathaaram - I still don't understand how that paati finds Poovaragavan as her son.. :oops:
3. Panchathathiram - Iyer - Yugi Sethu - asking him to stay with a dead body.. 'Brahmana poi ponathukooda irukka solriyae..'
4. Anbe Sivam - The boy who gets the blood and dies, is of the brahmin family(I remember seeing the parents wearing Brahmin type of dress) - His name is 'Poun' which he related with 'Poun KUNJU'

PS; I am not a brahmin but i feel that these are hurtful for that community when they normally dont do these type of things.
My friend is a brahmin and his father doesn't like KH
Naan list panni irukkuradhula edhavadhu thappa irundhuchuna, periyavanga mannipai kaetukiren.. Especially about Anbe Sivam. I dont have DVDs with me to verify this before posting...

[sathya_1979]

karthik, i dnt see anything offensive wrt 2, 3. 1 and 4, dnt remember and need to revisit. Brahmins dead body thookka koodaadhunnu irukkaa? Am not sure. I have seen many carry dead bodies to sudukaadu.
WRT dasa, paatti was under the illusion that her son is alive. When that defence mechanism is broken, she visualizes poovaraghan as her son, cry out to pacify herself. The only grouse here is characterization of the person accompanying paatti as jaadhi pisaasu. thamizh naattila, after 1947, nadandha ethana jaadhi kalavarathula brahmins kaaraNamaa irundhirukkaanga? Dnt have the exact percent numbers, but, generally brahmins are the ones who had involved on intercaste marriages more than any other. Jaadhi pisaasunnu maththavangaLa paaththu avaraala dhairiyamaa solla mudiyumaa?

[sathya_1979]

also, read in today's news paper that tamilnadu is 5th in india in violence against dalits - oppression, two tumbler, refusal to entry into temples, separate pond, sudukaadu etc. How many of these are by brahmins? Can somebody throw light on these?

[m_karthik]

Sathya,

Brahmins dead body thookka koodaadhunnu sattam edhuvum kidayadhu.. :)

But why that dialogue was explicitly told... That's where the potshot comes

WRT Dasa, IMO, patti has gone further mad by not able to identify her own son.. Andha Tsunami la Poovaragavan mattum thaan sethu ponaara???

[sathya_1979]

dasa - we can consider it as linking of characters.

[sathya_1979]

also, many of us wud have read the attrocities against dalits in many villages. in most of the cases the crime by so-called other upper castes are let off with a petty fine. How many / what percentage of these are by brahmins? Oppression is in practise for thousands of years by many castes. Why call it with a name brahminism / paarppaneeyam? Considering recent history of last 50 to 60 years, nadandha thappula ethana percent are by brahmins?

I am not digressing. Thappu yaar senjirundhaalum thappudhaan. Aanaa oru kurippitta samoogaththa kurai sollumbOdhu, kurai solvadharkkaana kaaraNaNgaL valuvaanadhaaga irukkiradhaa? this is what i want to find out.

[Bala (Karthik)]

Sathya,
History doesn't start with 1947. That a Brahmin wouldn't hurt a fly and (he/she/caste system) is absolved of all crimes is a very simplistic and convoluted "explanation".
(i was about to apologize for making the right wing comments till i read these posts)

[Bala (Karthik)]

OK, let me do it anyway - i owe this anyway. I apologize for addressing dear friends Ajay and Dr.Kalyan, Sathya as right wing Hindus etc..
However, i don't get the persistent "digression" point anyway, adhu kidakkattum....

I'm a believer now but i'm still a fan of Aandavar, for the record. I was angry with him after UPO, for the exact opposite reasons from those cited here - if anyone could get hurt watching that film, IMO, its the Muslims. Hey Ram, Dasavatharam and UPO are evidence enough for whatever the edhir katchi is looking for. Idhukku mela solradhukku onnum illai.

[Bala (Karthik)]

adhu avar opinion. unga opinion-ai sollaNumnA nInga padam edunga.
:notworthy: :yes: (of course, everybody has the right to disagree/diss works of a maker, but statements like "Who gave him the right to talk about religion" , "What thesis has he done", "what management programme has he done" deserve this response. Illa, Kurudhippunal-la sonna madhiri "same to you" no solliralaam :lol:

[Anban]

Bala is a believer now ! :)

[Bala (Karthik)]

Jaadhi pisaasunnu maththavangaLa paaththu avaraala dhairiyamaa solla mudiyumaa?
Neenga Thevar Magan padam paatheengala?

[Bala (Karthik)]

Bala is a believer now ! :)
Amaam amaam

[Bala (Karthik)]

And vetti saicha dhaan kutravaali-ya? I mean what are we discussing here? It seems to imply that Thevars (for example) are the only veriyars and Brahmins are just innocuous curd rice eaters, who have nothing to do with all this mess!

[sathya_1979]

Bala, thanks for the detailed POV. Nobody is claiming here that one group alone is innocent, why unnecessary target etc. As I mentioned thappu yaar senjaalum thappudhaan. every group is responsible for its share of good and bad deeds. Y pointing 4 of 5 fingers at one alone? Dnt say that they have done the maximum offences. Appuram chitraguptan maadhiri kaNakku sollaNum :D as I mentioned to Plum yesterday - this is a standoff. Followers of Mr. Kamal's ideologies are not going to accept POV of other side, same with other side as well. Am fine with whatever we had discussed so far. Nice to see a healthy discussion on an ideology thread without wind ups, swear words and warnings. Hats off to everyone.

And BTW, history is not from 1947 alone. But, they are a part of history too. if somebody says that going by history, one group merits mocks, no group will escape this premise.

Thanks once again. Have a great day.

[Plum]

Sathya, as Bala said history extends before 1947. Brahmins are in prison for a reason. 63 years of movement away from creating caste divisions, could only be nannadathai(I am being blanket here but I don't mean offence nor is this a broadbrush stroke) - a requirement not an option or a privilege we grant on society. If it is true that the whole of new gen has done away with the past mentality(which as I said is certainly not true completely) then that is? A good beginning. But how does Kamal treat his brahmin characters? What situations he puts them in?
Let's take the dasa character - of all the quoted, that is the only signifcant objection I've seen so far. What is he doing exactly there as jaadhi veri. Simply trying to walk away from an environment, he is not at all comfy with. The jaadhi veri used by paatti is not a heavy word at all. All the son can do there is walk away with paatti and return to his agraharam ghetto. Where earlier, lower castes were ghettoized outside the town to maintain brahmin purity, all that can be done now is to ghettoize oneself to maintain that purity. Isn't that potent enough? The fact is Brahmins are not dominant opinion makers today. The fact is they were once. And the net result was the caste system we have. So culpability for past exists.(Today's opinion makers who are responsible for maintaining the system - will history catchup with them? Yes. But when they cease to be dominant, not now). Yes, today's individual brahmin isn't to be held up for that. But that's hardly the implication here right?
Is Kamal talking about azhagiya singar there as the direct resposnible for two tumblers etc. He simply is not addressing it at all there. The point being made is different - and that point is not that the brahmin is evil still maintaining caste divisions. It is simply that the most potent effect of brahmin caste veri can only be ghettoizing himself! Well, not exactly, but that's what it amounts to.
Ones got to differentiate between what one's views on the role of brahmin in modern society and Kamal's criticism of some other thing as a negation of that view.


And as Bala said, dasa, hey ram and thevar magan have enough questions posed to today's dominant groups as well as the muslim bashing demanded of him. Those points are important and deserve explicit discussion.(Again I wouldn't call it bashing but something that can offend muslims just like he seems to have offended brahmins as can be seen)
I can't be more open and honest than this - almost giving away my society given identity, which I don't like to publicly discuss - and only fair would be anban or bala expanding on what they meant there.

[sathya_1979]

Plum, enna solreenga? :confused2: en sittrarivukku ettumpadi simpleaa sollunga.

[venkkiram]

Plum, enna solreenga? :confused2: en sittrarivukku ettumpadi simpleaa sollunga.
அவரும் கமல் போல பல layer-ல பேசுறார் :) எப்படி புரியும்?

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

அன்பே வைணவம் என்று இருந்திருந்தாலோ anbe venkataachalam nnu vasoolrajala solluvaar, that too with nakkals. so saivaite and vaishnavaite bashing justified illaya??

after nambi dies, nambi sethathu sivanin seyalum alla, antha nambi nambiyum kaapaatraamal ponathu vishnuvin soozhchiyum alla

so he is trying to portray that it's not siva or sishnu but it's nambi's mad patriotism for vishnu which took his life

[sathya_1979]

Keeping aside all these Ideological POV, Counterviews etc, I have one question.

The so-called Hindu-Bashing, Anti-Brahminism etc are on the prowl in mainstream cinema, drama, literature and interviews, in TN, for quite a long time. Not sure if Kamal had started it or Kamal's contribution to this ideology is at the max %.

So, why are we discussing this as Mr. Kamal's filmi attribute or persona or ideology? His ideology is multi-faceted and have much more to it, than THIS POV.

There are many other in film industry, who are having such ideology, right? Why did we pick Mr. Kamal alone for this discussion?

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

சத்யா,
ஜாதி பேரை சொல்லி அல்லது பகுத்தறிவு பேசி வேஷம் போடும் ஒட்டு பொறுக்கிகள், வாழ்த்துவதற்கும் (சிறுபான்மை செல்வமே) ஊழலிலிருந்து தப்புவதற்கும் ( அவர் தலித் என்பதால் ஆதிக்க சக்திகள் செய்யும் சதி) ஜாதியை பயன்படுத்தும் அரசியல்வாதிகளுக்கும்,

சாதிமதங்களை கிண்டல் செய்வதை பொழுதுபோக்காக வைத்திருப்பவர்கள்,

எதை சொன்னால் கல்லா நிறையும் என்று பார்த்து பார்த்து செய்பவர்கள்

இவர்களுக்கும் உண்மையான பகுத்தறிவு வாதியான கமலுக்கும் வித்யாசம் இல்லையா? ஐவரும் சில சமயம் அவர்கள் அளவுக்கு கீழிறங்கி செல்வதால் அவர் மேல் வரும் வருத்தம் தான் இவை எல்லாம்

[Cinefan]

Bala,
Why apologies and all.Cool,I know no offence meant.

Plum,
By persisting in asking for specific lines,scenes,interviews, are you implying that Kamal does not have an anti-Hindu/brahmin stance?????

Also,
The reason this thread came into effect was because I,kalyan,sakala,sathya and maybe a couple of others said he is biased in his opinions in the sense that he takes on things selectively.

Are you saying no?

The cross thing in dasa mentioned by kalyan came in much later right?

If you want to take one thing at a time,here is the first one(actually 3 in 1)-I accuse Mr.Kamal Haasan of being selective in his criticisms.
I accuse him of not taking on other groups because it might result in a reaction which might hurt him physically or his image.He is also very keen to explain any anti-minority(religion wise) sentiments expressed which he does not bother doing for the so-called majority.
I accuse him of taking selective people for granted becos they do not have the courage/guts/unity to sully him and it's fashionable to do so.

Idhe discuss pannovom before going on to the next one.No hard feelings and I am receptive for information which might change my opinion on this.I have no ego and am willing to say I was wrong if indeed I was.

PS:My next visit to the hub will only be tomorrow 3pm IST OR on tuesday morning.So no body please think that I threw a stone and vanished. :D

[sathya_1979]

சத்யா,
ஜாதி பேரை சொல்லி அல்லது பகுத்தறிவு பேசி வேஷம் போடும் ஒட்டு பொறுக்கிகள், வாழ்த்துவதற்கும் (சிறுபான்மை செல்வமே) ஊழலிலிருந்து தப்புவதற்கும் ( அவர் தலித் என்பதால் ஆதிக்க சக்திகள் செய்யும் சதி) ஜாதியை பயன்படுத்தும் அரசியல்வாதிகளுக்கும்,

சாதிமதங்களை கிண்டல் செய்வதை பொழுதுபோக்காக வைத்திருப்பவர்கள்,

எதை சொன்னால் கல்லா நிறையும் என்று பார்த்து பார்த்து செய்பவர்கள்

இவர்களுக்கும் உண்மையான பகுத்தறிவு வாதியான கமலுக்கும் வித்யாசம் இல்லையா? ஐவரும் சில சமயம் அவர்கள் அளவுக்கு கீழிறங்கி செல்வதால் அவர் மேல் வரும் வருத்தம் தான் இவை எல்லாம்

Sakala, thanks for the reply. uNmaiyaana paguththarivu / secularism will aim at finding solutions. Not stop at mocking. I have never seen any one secularist / atheist / paguththarivuvaadhi who had done that, in real life.

Revolution and social-equality paththi pEsuravanga is not aimed at creating a level playing field. But, hell-bent on age-old retribution towards only one out of the 100 offenders, irrespective of whether the reports from the past is 100% true.

What is the solution / suggestion to eliminate the evils of casteism (Note: Not abt brahmins alone, but, casteism as a whole), by Mr. Kamal? Enakku avarOda followers aLavukku avar padangaL paththi nyaanam kedayaadhu. People like Bala can throw light. This can lead to the next topic of discussion on his ideologies, rather than getting stuck at only one.

[Plum]

Cinefan, again I am breaking your accusation into specifics. You want to axiomate without any example/proof. The problem is when you drilldown to what is insulting, you get "setha ponam pakkathula irukka sonnaar" kinds. So you have to tell what exactly? You are the one offended, so you have to say what is the offence. How can I assume that offence without being told by you?

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

plum, there are direct mentions and attacks on one specific community. enakku, avar hindu bashing enra perla pannurathu kooda specifim community bashing aagathaan theriyuthu. examples ale spilled all over this thread

satya, he is offering one solution which he is following too. completely ignore caste and religion in life. completely. mostly he is following this and there is nothing like wearing an Manjal Thundu for unknown reason etc.

While his overall ideologies are perfect, the way he pinpoints the ups and downs of the soceity wrt caste and relegion, takes a hit as there is no uniformity in that.

whatever it is, he IS offering a solution, but its very tough for one to follow

[sathya_1979]

plum, there are direct mentions and attacks on one specific community. enakku, avar hindu bashing enra perla pannurathu kooda specifim community bashing aagathaan theriyuthu. examples ale spilled all over this thread

satya, he is offering one solution which he is following too. completely ignore caste and religion in life. completely. mostly he is following this and there is nothing like wearing an Manjal Thundu for unknown reason etc.

While his overall ideologies are perfect, the way he pinpoints the ups and downs of the soceity wrt caste and relegion, takes a hit as there is no uniformity in that.

whatever it is, he IS offering a solution, but its very tough for one to follow

Similarly all religions have said "Believe in God, live without bias against any living being". Idhuvum acceptabledhaan illayaa?

It's like saying - There are rules and regulations in Indian Constitution (Or constitution of any country for that matter). Many criminals have misused it and got away without suffering punishment for the crimes. So, let's do away with the constitution.

[Plum]

Skv, thirumba thirumba examples are strewn throughnu solrInga. UruppadiyA oNNum theriyalaiyE enakku. What I think is it is the image building on itself. What I saw "offensiveA sonnAr" apdinnu allegations irukku neraiya. Buut enna sonnar andha instancela offensiveAnu kEtta badhil illai. Are we just consuming his image? And is that precisely because he rejects the religion, caste as you mentioned? Oru hinduvA irundhuttu hindu religionai odharittane-nu varra varutham is feeding the feeling that he has offendedA? Again and again, you can't say he has to be balanced in criticism. Very ofen, bashing happens because you feel strongly about it. There can be no conscious balance in "feeling strongly". Again, I am trying to understand did he say like "poonool anibavargaL madayargaL" or "pooNool aNivadhu some offensive adjective" or did he just reject poonool anivadhu? That is why I asked what he said. But nobody answered. And that is why I don't want to engage with mere allegations.

[P_R]

I accuse him of taking selective people for granted becos they do not have the courage/guts/unity to sully him and it's fashionable to do so.
IMO to a large extent, yes.
However your line seems to suggest that Hindus too should unite and react regressively so that folks like Kamal, would not dare criticize. That is where I disagree.

[P_R]

(Note: Not abt brahmins alone, but, casteism as a whole), by Mr. Kamal?

1) அது மட்டுமில்லாம நாமென்ன ஜாதி அவன் என்ன ஜாதி - Mouli in aboorva sagOdarargaL (said with disgust in his face, about Anand)

2)
Selvam: நானும் உங்க ஜாதி தான்
Madanbob: (all smiles) ஓஹ்..நாய்டுவா :lol:

3)
Selvam: (calls him by his name)
Delhi Ganesh: எல்லாரும் என்னை பிள்ளைன்னு கூப்டுவாஹ
Selvam: அது நீங்க உங்க பிள்ளைய கூப்டுக்குங்க

4)
தேவனா இருக்குறது முக்கியமா மனுஷனா இருக்குறது முக்கியமா (idhai open-A vida eppidi 'nga thitta mudiyin ??)

5)
Madanbob: கள்ளனய்யா நீர்...
Nasser: ஹ்ம்....மறவன்

6)
மண்ணாங்கட்டி: ஐயே வா
பஞ்சாபகேசன்: இல்ல....நான் இன்னிக்கி ஒரு பொழுது தான்...அதுவும் அந்த தட்டுல வாழக்கா துண்டு...மீன் மாதிரி
மண்ணாங்கட்டி: ஆக மொத்தம்...நீ நம்ம ஊட்ல சாப்ட மாட்ட அதான்னே...உடு

7)
(sic) பேய்க்காமன்: சாதிக்காரன விட்டுட்டு...நாய்க்கனுக்கு முடிச்சு குடுப்பேனா

estra estra estra

Of all this, you seem to take special notice of only 6. And 6 is more 'real' than most stereotypical jabs made at Brahmins in TFI. :-)

[sathya_1979]

more real? pureela.

[P_R]

A register speaking sinister scheming untouchability practitioner is not real character. So we can brush it off as a silly portrayal. But Kamal hardly ever caricatures like that. His portrayals of prejudice mostly (though not always) come across plausible. That is why they are discomfiting.

[Plum]

P-R, epdi pOnAlum marubadiyuum "kamal is anti brahmin" idhukku bahdil sollunganu generalA dhaan solraanga. Unga kitta handover pannittu vedikkai paarkaren.

Why not discuss ideas, why keep loopinmg back to discussing the person by formulating in terms of the "person offended us. Answer this". Why do I ask repeatedly wxpresss the offence. Because that leads to discussion on the ideas and thoughts. Instead, person levelleye discuss pannalaamna. Ok I am not interested ib kamal the celebrity but his thoughts and that is what I am trying to discuss. If accepting that Kamal is anti-brahmin coward will help you go to specifics and thoughts and whatexaclt howexaclty offended you, I am willing to do that and go further else if nobody is interested in representing brahmin or hindu hurt and willing to explain it, :wave: and :handover: to moderator saar.

[littlemaster1982]

Again, I am trying to understand did he say like "poonool anibavargaL madayargaL" or "pooNool aNivadhu some offensive adjective" or did he just reject poonool anivadhu? That is why I asked what he said. But nobody answered. And that is why I don't want to engage with mere allegations.

I have read what he said quite a long time before "mudhugu sorivadharkku enakku veru porutkal irukkindrana". This was mentioned in an article which was discussing about Kamal's atheism. I don't know how true is this.

[sathya_1979]

Again, I am trying to understand did he say like "poonool anibavargaL madayargaL" or "pooNool aNivadhu some offensive adjective" or did he just reject poonool anivadhu? That is why I asked what he said. But nobody answered. And that is why I don't want to engage with mere allegations.

I have read what he said quite a long time before "mudhugu sorivadharkku enakku veru porutkal irukkindrana". This was mentioned in an article which was discussing about Kamal's atheism. I don't know how true is this.
Plum, my PM's supporting evidence. My intention is not that he shud start mocking at every community or religion. Avarukku nambikkai illaadha oru vishayaththai paththi pEsumbOdhu, kani iruppa kaai kavarvaanEn?

[P_R]

Again, I am trying to understand did he say like "poonool anibavargaL madayargaL" or "pooNool aNivadhu some offensive adjective" or did he just reject poonool anivadhu? That is why I asked what he said. But nobody answered. And that is why I don't want to engage with mere allegations.

I have read what he said quite a long time before "mudhugu sorivadharkku enakku veru porutkal irukkindrana". This was mentioned in an article which was discussing about Kamal's atheism. I don't know how true is this.

That time Sujatha was editor of Kumudham and when a reader asked about this, he replied

நான் அதை (பூணூலால் முதுகு சொறிவதை) ஒரு கலையாகவே பழகிவிட்டேன் :lol:

[app_engine]

Discussion on TN & Caste, somewhat related to the material discussed in this thread (http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=7317)

[sathya_1979]

Thanks app. Along with the article (Or Letter), the comments section had quite a number of insightful points.

[jaiganes]

http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=7499

I thought this article is a good addition to this debate here.
nicely written. I only hope that Kamal too thinks on the same lines when he creates characters of any community.
We have to always give the benefit of doubt to the creator.

[Plum]

jeyamohan articleslAm yAravadhu cut paste paNNungO. enga aapeesla vevaramA avar site-ai ban paNNi irukkAnga. adhu epdi andha site-ai thErndheduthu ban paNNAngannu theriyalai - avLO popular kUda kedayAdhE...:thinking:

[Sarna]

:lol: thought of asking the same.... only cine-related website am able to open is hub... all other things are blocked here :(

[venkkiram]

[tscii:edc5de8efa]எந்த அடையாளம்?

திரு ஜெ.. எனது பின்னூட்டத்தை வெளியிடவில்லை. சரி உங்கள் உரிமை. ஆனால் நீங்கள் வசனம் எழுதிய அங்காடித்தெரு படத்தில் ப்ராமணரை கொடுமைக்காரர்களாக காட்டி இருக்கிறீர்கள் என்று குறிப்பிட்டது உங்களைக் குத்தியதா என்பதையாவது விளக்குங்கள்!

hayyram

சாதியுடன் புழங்குதல்…

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அன்புள்ள hayyram

உங்கள் பின்னூட்டங்கள் மட்டுமல்ல உங்களுக்கு நேர் மாறான கோணத்தில் போடப்பட்ட சில பின்னூட்டங்களும் மட்டுறுத்தப்பட்டன. அவை மட்டுறுத்தப்பட்டமைக்கான காரணம் ஒன்றுதான். நீங்கள் இருசாராருமே தெளிவான முன்முடிவுகளுடன் கட்டுரைகளை வாசிக்கிறீர்கள். கட்டுரையில் என்ன சொல்லப்பட்டிருக்கிறதென்பது உங்களுக்கு ஒரு பொருட்டே அல்ல. கட்டுரையின் கைகால்களை ஒடித்து முடமாக்கி நீங்கள் நின்றுகொண்டிருக்கும் இடத்துக்கு இழுத்துக்கொண்டு செல்கிறீர்கள். அங்கே வைத்து ஆர அமர பிய்த்து குதறுகிறீர்கள். இதை நான் விவாதமாகக் கொள்ள முடியாது. விவாதம் நிகழும் தளத்தில் இருந்து வாசகர்களை விலக்கக் கூடியதாகவே அதைக் காண்கிறேன்.

நீங்கள் பிராமணசாதியின் பிரதிநிதியாக உங்களை உறுதியாக அடையாளப்படுத்திக்கொள்கிறீர்கள். ஆகவே பிராமணசாதியைப்பற்றி பெருமிதமாக அல்லாது ஏதாவது சொல்லப்பட்டால் நீங்கள் உடனே புண்படுகிறீர்கள். புண்படுவதற்கான உரிமை உங்களுக்கு இருப்பதாக எண்ணிக்கொள்கிறீர்கள். உடனே எதிர்வினை ஆற்றுகிறீர்கள். இந்த எதிர்வினைகளுடன் நான் உரையாட முடியாது. நீங்கள் ஒரு குழுவடையாளத்தைச் சுமந்து கொள்வதும், அதன் பேச்சாளராக உங்களை எண்ணிக்கொண்டிருப்பதும் உங்கள் மனசிக்கல். அதை நான் அங்கீகரிக்க முடியாது. அங்கீகரித்தால் மட்டுமே அதற்கு எதிர்வினை ஆற்றமுடியும். நான் மனச்சிக்கல்களுடன் விவாதிப்பதில்லை. விவாதம் மூலம் நானும் நீங்களும் பொதுவாக ஏதேனும் அறியும்படி இருக்க வேண்டும்.

நீங்கள் எழுதிய இந்தக் கேள்வியை பலர் என்னிடம் கடிதம் மூலம் கேட்டுக்கொண்டே இருக்கிறார்கள். அவர்களை உதாசீனம்செய்யும்போது அது குற்றவுணர்ச்சியின் மௌனம் என்று விளக்கப்படுகிறது. ஒருபக்கம் பிராமணர்களை தூக்கிப்பிடிப்பவன் என்றும் மறுபக்கம் பிராமணர்களை இழிவுபடுத்துபவன் என்றும் நான் வசைபாடப்படுகிறேன். இப்போதல்ல, விஷ்ணுபுரம் வெளிவந்த காலம் முதலே. இந்த ஆட்டம் எனக்குப் பழகிப்போய்விட்டது. இது, உங்களைப்போன்ற அனைவருக்கும் என் பொதுப்பதில் -விவாதம் அல்ல.

நாம் வாழும் சூழல் எப்படிப்பட்டது? கஸ்தூரிமான் வெளிவந்தபோது பரீக்*ஷா ஞாநி ஒரு கூட்டத்தில் கர்ஜனை புரிந்தார் – அதில் கதாநாயகியின் அக்காவின் கணவனும் அவள் அன்னையும் கொடூரமானவர்களாக காட்டப்பட்டிருப்பார்கள். அவர்களை தாழ்த்தப்பட்ட சாதியினராகக் காட்டியிருப்பதாகச் சொன்ன ஞாநி ‘தாழ்த்தப்பட்டவர்கள் கொடூரமானவர்கள் என்று எழுதிய ஜெயமோகன் மன்னிப்பு கோரவேண்டும்’ என்றார்

முதல் விஷயம் அவர்கள் தாழ்த்தப்பட்ட சாதியைச்சேர்ந்தவர்களாகக் காட்டப்படவில்லை. என்ன சாதி என்பது படத்திலேயே உள்ளது. அது லோகிததாஸின் வழக்கம், எப்போதும் தெளிவாகச் சாதி சொல்லி படைப்பை எழுதுபவர் அவர். இரண்டு, அப்படத்தின் மலையாள மூலத்தில் லோகிததாஸ் எழுதி உருவாக்கிய கதாபாத்திரத்தின் நேரடியான தமிழ் வடிவம் அது. அதை எழுதி இயக்கியவர் அவர், நான் மொழிபெயர்ப்பாளன். நான் அதில் எதையுமே சேர்க்கவில்லை, ஆகவே அது என் உருவாக்கம் அல்ல. கடைசியாக, லோகிததாஸே தாழ்த்தப்பட்ட சாதியொன்றைச் சேர்ந்தவர்.

அங்காடித்தெரு வந்தபோது ‘அரசியல்’ என்ற வார இதழில் பாமரன் என்பவர் ஒரு கட்டுரை எழுதினார். அதில் கங்காணி கதாபாத்திரம் ‘அருந்ததியப்பயலே’ என்று வசைபாடுவதாகவும் அதை எழுதிய எழுத்தாளர் ஜெயமோகன் உடனே தீண்டப்படாதார் வன்கொடுமைச் சட்டப்படி தண்டிக்கப்படவேண்டும் என்று சொன்னார். படத்தில் திட்டவட்டமாக தெளிவாக ‘அறுதலி’ என்றுதான் வசனம் ஒலித்தது. பாமரனுக்கு அச்சொல் புரிந்திருக்காது, அல்லது அவர் வேண்டுமென்றே அதை எழுதினார்

அறுதலிப்பயல் என்பது தென்னாட்டின் சாதாரண வசை. பொதுவாக ’அவிழ்த்துவிடப்பட்டவன்’ என்று அதற்கு பொருள். அந்த விளக்கம் இயக்குநர் தரப்பில் அளிக்கப்பட்டபோது பாமரன் பேசாமல் இருந்தார். அந்தக்கட்டுரை வெளிவந்ததுமே ஒரு கும்பல் வந்து எழுதியவனை வெட்டியிருந்தால் யார் பொறுப்பேற்பது? இதழா, விமரிசகரா? யாருக்குக் கவலை? மன்னிப்பு கோரும் நாகரீகமெல்லாம் பாமரன் போன்றவர்களிடம் எதிர்பார்ப்பதற்குரியதல்ல.

இங்கே முக்கியமான விஷயம் என்னவென்றால் சம்பந்தப்பட்ட இருவருமே அந்த ‘பாதிக்கப்பட்ட’ சாதியைச் சேர்ந்தவர்கள் அல்ல என்பதே. ஒரு கலகம் நடந்தால் நல்லதுதானே என நினைக்கும் எளிமையான மனங்கள். அதன் மூலம் தனக்கு ஒரு முற்போக்கு பிம்பம் வந்தால் வரட்டுமே என ஆசைப்படுபவர்கள். இந்தவகையான நெருக்கடிகளுடன் மட்டுமே இங்கே படங்கள் எடுக்கப்படுகின்றன.

கருத்துச் சுதந்திரம் , படைப்புச் சுதந்திரம் எதுவுமே இல்லாத அரைப்பழங்குடிச் சமூகம் நம்முடையது. அதை மேலும் பாமரத்தனமாக ஆக்குவதே அறிவுஜீவியின் பணி என நம்பும் முற்போக்கு சிந்தனயாளர்களே இங்கே பெரும்பான்மையினர். உலகத்தளத்தில் சினிமா ஏன் இல்லை என்று கூவுபவர்களே இவ்வகையான பாமரத்தனத்தின் உச்சத்திலும் நிற்கிறார்கள். இவர்களுடன் போராடியே இங்கே எழுதவேண்டியிருக்கிறது.

இந்தவகையான ஒரு கும்பல் மனநிலையில் நின்றே நீங்களும் பேசிக்கொண்டிருக்கிறீர்கள். நான் எப்போதும் எதிர்கொண்டு வரும் மனநிலை அது. எந்தச்சாதியினராக இருந்தாலும் இந்த மனநிலை புறக்கணிப்புக்குரியது, பண்பாட்டுச்செயல்பாட்டுக்கு எதிரானது என்றே எண்ணுகிறேன். ஆகவே அது விவாதத்துக்குரியதே அல்ல.

இந்தக் கும்பல் மனநிலையின் தர்க்கமே அபத்தமானது. ஒரு தலித் அல்லது தேவர் அல்லது பிராமண கதாபாத்திரம் எதிர்மறையாகக் காட்டப்பட்டால் உடனே ஒட்டுமொத்த தலித் அல்லது தேவர் அல்லது பிராமணர்களையும் அது குற்றம்சாட்டுவதாக எண்ணிக்கொள்கிறார்கள். அங்காடித்தெரு எங்கே ’பிராமணர்களை’ காட்டுகிறது? ஒரு பிராமணப்பெண்ணை காட்டுகிறது. உங்கள் வாதம் சரி என்றால் ஒரே ஒரு பிராமணர்கூட அப்படி இலலமல் இருக்க வேண்டும். அப்படி நம்பும் மனக்கோளாறு உங்களுக்கு இருக்கலாம். நான் ஏன் அதை ஏற்கவேண்டும்?

அந்த தர்க்கத்தின்படி எந்த சாதியையும் மதத்தையும் சேர்ந்தவராக எதிர்மறைக் கதாபாத்திரம் இருக்கக்கூடாது. பழைய எம்ஜியார் படங்களில் நம்பியார் வருவதுபோல ‘எங்கோ’இருக்கும் கொள்ளைக்கூட்ட தலைவனாக இருக்க வேண்டும், உள்ளங்கையை முஷ்டியால் குத்தி ‘ஜ்ஜ்ஜக்கூ’ என்று கூவ வேண்டும் இல்லையா? இந்த தர்க்கமே அதற்கடுத்தபடிகளுக்குச் செல்கிறது. எதிர்மறைக் கதாபாத்திரம் எந்த தொழிலையும் செய்வதாகக் காட்டக்கூடாது, சம்பந்தப்பட்ட தொழிலைச் செய்பவர்கள் புண்படுவார்கள். போராடுவார்கள். இனி இதே தர்க்கம் இடங்களுக்கு பரவும். எந்த ஊரையும் குறிப்பிடக்கூடாது. ஆக, எதைத்தான் திரையில் காட்டவேண்டும் என்கிறீர்கள்?

அங்காடித்தெருவில் அப்பட்டமாக எல்லாருக்குமே சாதி காட்டப்படுகிறது. படம் முழுக்க முற்றிலும் எதிர்மறைக் கதாபாத்திரமாக வருபவர்களுக்கும்கூட. இன்று தமிழில் வெளிவரும் எல்லா யதார்த்தப்படங்களிலும் சாதி தெளிவாகவே உள்ளது. அச்சாதிகளின் மூர்க்கமும் அறியாமையும் வன்முறையும் காட்டப்படுகிறது. எவரும் கொதித்தெழவில்லை. அவர்களுக்கு இருக்கும் பொறுமையும் நாகரீகமும் கூட பண்பட்டவர்கள் என்று தங்களைக் கருதிக்கொள்ளும் உங்களைப்போன்றவர்களிடமில்லை என்பதை காலத்தின் கோலம் என்றே கொள்ளவேண்டும்.

அங்காடித்தெரு காட்டுவது ஒரு சமூக யதார்த்தத்தை. ஒருபக்கம் மதம் தீட்டைப் பற்றிச் சொல்லிக்கொண்டிருக்கிறது, மறுபக்கம் தீட்டை புனிதமாகவும் அதே மதம் நினைக்கிறது. அதன் ஒரு கடவுள் சாந்தமானவர், இன்னொரு கடவுள் உக்கிரமானவர். உங்கள் சாதிப்பித்தை விட்டுவிட்டு படம் பார்த்தால் அந்தக்காட்சியில் ஒடுக்கப்பட்ட ஒரு பெண் தீட்டையே தகுதியென ஏற்றுக்கொள்ளும் ஒரு உக்கிரமான கடவுளைச் சார்ந்து தன்னை தைரியமானவளாக மாற்றிக்கொள்ளும் பரிணாமத்தின் கதையை காணமுடியும்.

ஏன் அங்கே பிராமணப்பெண் காட்டப்படுகிறாள் என்றால் அவ்வாறு தீட்டை ஒரு சமூக அமைப்பாக நிறுவிய மதத்தரப்பு பிராமணர்களால் தொடர்ச்சியாக நூற்றாண்டுகளாக நிலைநாட்டப்பட்டது என்பதனாலேயே. இன்றும் அந்த தீவிரமான தீட்டை கடைப்பிடிக்கும் பிராமணர்களை நான் நாகரீகச் சென்னையில், திருவல்லிக்கேணியில் கண்டிருக்கிறேன். ஆம், வேலைக்காரியை கொல்லைப்பக்கம் படுக்கவைப்பதையே கண்ணால் கண்டிருக்கிறேன் -போதுமா?

இந்தப்புண்படுதல் சங்கதியை நீங்கள் கொஞ்சம் அடக்கிக்கொள்ளத்தான் வேண்டும். நான் தமிழகத்தில் உருவாக்கப்பட்டுள்ள பிராமண வெறுப்பை ஏற்றுக்கொண்டவன் அல்ல. அது அடுத்தகட்ட சாதியப்படிகளில் நின்றவர்கள் அரசியலதிகாரத்தை கைப்பற்ற கையாண்ட உத்தி மட்டுமே என நினைப்பவன். இன்று தங்கள் சொந்த சாதிவெறியை மறைக்கவே அவர்கள் அதைக் கூச்சலிடுகிறார்கள். நாளை தலித் அரசியல் வலுப்பெறும்தோறும் அந்த வேடம் கலையும்.

இந்தியப் பண்பாட்டுக்கு பிராமணர்களின் பங்களிப்பு மிகமிக முக்கியமானது என்று நினைப்பவன் நான். அதை இந்த இணையதளத்தில் மிக வலுவாக எழுதியுமிருக்கிறேன். இந்து ஞானமரபின் ஒரு முக்கியமான பகுதி என்றே பிராமண மதத்தை [பூர்வமீமாம்சம்] நினைக்கிறேன். இந்தியாவிற்கும் தமிழகத்திற்கும் பிராமணர்களின் பண்பாட்டு, அரசியல், சமூகவியல் பங்களிப்பு முக்கியமானது. அதை மறந்தோ மறுத்தோ பேசுபவர் நேர்மையானவர் அல்ல.

பிராமணர்கள் இந்துப்பண்பாட்டின் நிலைச்சக்திகள். இந்துப் பண்பாடு அதன் அமைப்பையும் கட்டுக்கோப்பையும் தக்கவைத்துக்கொள்வதற்காக பல்லாயிரம் வருடங்களாக அவர்கள் ரத்தமும் கண்ணீரும் சிந்தியிருக்கிறார்கள். அவர்களுக்கு இந்து என உணரும் எவரும் கடமைப்பட்டிருக்கிறார்.

ஆனால் எந்நிலையிலும் பிராமணர்களுக்கு எதிரான கடும் விமரிசனம் இந்து ஞான மரபுக்குள் இருக்கும். கீதையில் இருக்கிறது, உபநிடதங்களில் உள்ளது. விவேகானந்தரில் உள்ளது. அது நாளையும் இருக்கும். காரணம் நிலைச்சக்திக்கு எதிரானதாகவே செயல்சக்தி, மாற்றத்தின் விசை இருக்க முடியும். அது தவிர்க்கமுடியாதது. அது புண்படுத்துகிறது என்றால் அது வரலாற்றின் புண். நீங்கள் பிராமணராக உணரும் வரை அந்த அம்புகள் வந்து தைத்தபடியேதான் இருக்கும்.

ஆகவே நீங்கள் ஒரு மதிப்பீட்டின் அடையாளமாக இருப்பீர்கள், அதேசமயம் அந்த அடையாளத்தை விமரிசித்தால் புண்படுவீர்கள் என்று சொல்கிறீர்கள். மரபின் புனிதப்பசுக்களாக வாழும் உரிமை உங்களுக்கு உண்டு என நினைக்கிறீர்களா என்ன?

ஒரு நாகரீக மனிதன் தன்னை எந்த ஒரு இனக்குழு அடையாளங்களுடனும் பொருத்திக்கொண்டு அதன் உணர்ச்சிகளை அப்படியே பிரதிபலிக்க மாட்டான். புறவயமான பார்வையுடன் அதை பரிசீலித்து சென்றகால அடையாளமாக அவன் அந்த பண்பாட்டு அம்சங்களை அவன் எடுத்துக்கொள்ளலாம். மாறாக ’நாங்கள்லாம் பிறாமணாள்’ என்று நீங்கள் சொன்னீர்கள் என்றால் நீங்கள் இருப்பது நிலப்பிரபுத்துவ காலகட்டத்தில். நவீன காலகட்டம் வந்து உங்களை மோதிக்கொண்டேதான் இருக்கும். நீங்கள் தலைமுதல் கால்வரை புண்பட்டபடியேதான் இருப்பீர்கள்.

’அந்தச் சாதியைச் சொல்வாயா? இந்த மதத்தைச் சொல்வாயா?’ என்ற பாமரத்தனமான கேள்வி எழுந்து வருவதை கண்டிருக்கிறென். ஆம், நேரடியான விமரிசனங்களை எதிர்கொள்ளும் மனப்பயிற்சி இல்லாத மூர்க்கமான இனக்குழுக்கள் பல உள்ளன. அவற்றுடன் போய் மோதுவது பலசமயம் பொருளற்றதுதான். ஆனால் நான் பிராமணர்களை அப்படிப்பட்டவர்களாக நினைக்கவில்லை. உங்களைப்போன்ற சிலர் இருந்தாலும் பிராமணர்கள் பொதுவாக இன்னமும் அறிவுத்தளச் சமநிலை கொண்ட மென்மையான மனிதர்கள்தான்.

சென்னையில் ஒருமுறை பேருந்தில் சென்றுகொண்டிருந்தேன், கையில் ’பின் தொடரும் நிழலின்குரல்’ இருந்தது. பெரிய நாமமும் குடுமியும் பூணூலுமாக ஒரு பழுத்த வைணவ முதியவர் ‘குடுங்கோ’ என்று வாங்கி புரட்டிப்பார்த்தார். என் படத்தை பார்த்துவிட்டு ‘நீங்கதானா?’ என்றார். ‘என் பையன் படிப்பான். விஷ்ணுபுரத்தை குடுத்து படிக்கச் சொன்னான்.நன்னா இருந்தது’ என்றார். அவர் ஒரு வைணவ அறிஞர்.

நான் கொஞ்சம் துடுக்காக ’அதிலே நிறைய பிராமண கண்டனம் இருந்ததே’ என்றேன். ‘ஆமா’ என்றார் சிரித்துக்கொண்டு ‘அது நம்ம மதத்திலே எப்பவும் இருக்கறதே… வாதமும் பித்தமும் கபமும் சமமா இருக்கணுமே’ என்றார். நான் ’அதிலே பிராமணர்கள் சாப்பிடுற காட்சி பத்தி என்ன நினைக்கிறீங்க?’ என்றேன். ‘பிரமாதம்’ என்று சிரித்தார். கிளம்பும்போது ‘நல்லா இரு..எல்லா ஷேமமும் வரட்டும். குரு இருக்காரோ இல்லியோ’ என்றார். ‘ஆமாம்’ என்றேன். ‘நினைசேன்.நல்லா இரு’ என்றார்.

நான் பிராமணன் என நினைப்பது அவரை, உங்களை அல்ல. நீங்கள் பெரும்பாலானவர்களப்போல் கற்றும் செய்தும் ஒரு சுயத்தை உருவாக்க முடியாமல் நீங்கள் பிறக்க நேர்ந்த இனக்குழுவையே உங்கள் அடையாளமாகக் கொண்டிருக்கும் பாமர ஆத்மா

ஜெ [/tscii:edc5de8efa]

[jaiganes]

jeyamohan articleslAm yAravadhu cut paste paNNungO. enga aapeesla vevaramA avar site-ai ban paNNi irukkAnga. adhu epdi andha site-ai thErndheduthu ban paNNAngannu theriyalai - avLO popular kUda kedayAdhE...:thinking:
JeMo's site was infected with some malware and probably your office network prtection system has sensed it and therefore blocked it for your own good. I think now his site is fixed, but that update hasnt reached ur office systems. try writing to your admins they might be able to fix it.

[Plum]

ஆனால் எந்நிலையிலும் பிராமணர்களுக்கு எதிரான கடும் விமரிசனம் இந்து ஞான மரபுக்குள் இருக்கும். கீதையில் இருக்கிறது, உபநிடதங்களில் உள்ளது. விவேகானந்தரில் உள்ளது. அது நாளையும் இருக்கும். காரணம் நிலைச்சக்திக்கு எதிரானதாகவே செயல்சக்தி, மாற்றத்தின் விசை இருக்க முடியும். அது தவிர்க்கமுடியாதது. அது புண்படுத்துகிறது என்றால் அது வரலாற்றின் புண். நீங்கள் பிராமணராக உணரும் வரை அந்த அம்புகள் வந்து தைத்தபடியேதான் இருக்கும்.

ஆகவே நீங்கள் ஒரு மதிப்பீட்டின் அடையாளமாக இருப்பீர்கள், அதேசமயம் அந்த அடையாளத்தை விமரிசித்தால் புண்படுவீர்கள் என்று சொல்கிறீர்கள். மரபின் புனிதப்பசுக்களாக வாழும் உரிமை உங்களுக்கு உண்டு என நினைக்கிறீர்களா என்ன
:clap: well said

[Plum]

jeyamohan articleslAm yAravadhu cut paste paNNungO. enga aapeesla vevaramA avar site-ai ban paNNi irukkAnga. adhu epdi andha site-ai thErndheduthu ban paNNAngannu theriyalai - avLO popular kUda kedayAdhE...:thinking:
JeMo's site was infected with some malware and probably your office network prtection system has sensed it and therefore blocked it for your own good. I think now his site is fixed, but that update hasnt reached ur office systems. try writing to your admins they might be able to fix it.

what? engappan kudhirukkuLLa illainu solla solrIngaLA? aapees timela nAn vElai pandrENnnu aapeesla nenachikuttirukkAnga. nAnE pOi "erumai mAde ennai vandhu muttu"-nu sollavA? :twisted: :lol:

[P_R]

:lol:

[jaiganes]

jeyamohan articleslAm yAravadhu cut paste paNNungO. enga aapeesla vevaramA avar site-ai ban paNNi irukkAnga. adhu epdi andha site-ai thErndheduthu ban paNNAngannu theriyalai - avLO popular kUda kedayAdhE...:thinking:
JeMo's site was infected with some malware and probably your office network prtection system has sensed it and therefore blocked it for your own good. I think now his site is fixed, but that update hasnt reached ur office systems. try writing to your admins they might be able to fix it.

what? engappan kudhirukkuLLa illainu solla solrIngaLA? aapees timela nAn vElai pandrENnnu aapeesla nenachikuttirukkAnga. nAnE pOi "erumai mAde ennai vandhu muttu"-nu sollavA? :twisted: :lol:
what ivvalavu sillyaava behave panraanga?
inga avanavan group groupaa ukkaandhu Footbaal paakaraan.
As long as delivery targets are met, teams legally eppadi venumnaa relax pannalaam. Naangalum oru intellectuallaa oru phlasapyaa eppadi munneruradhu? Cut copy and paste is the first step to intellectual development.

[groucho070]

I declare P_R as the hero of this thread
And as you rightly say, this question is unlikely to fall in MR's radar, for which I would thank God, if only I were not an agnostic probablist.
I am not concerned about the laws of Republic of Botswana. They do not affect me. I am concerned about the laws of gravity because if I don't pay heed to it, I am likely to break my neck.

I can be indifferent only if I believe that, regardless of whether a God exists or not he is not going to have any impact on my life.


I think the default is always 'I have no idea' which is (by commonly agreed abuse of expression): agnostic.
Upon knowing vevaram, one takes a side, or says: 'I still have no idea' and retains default status.

btw these labels are what we give ourselves. So they cannot preceed consciousness. So by default setting you mean a label that preceeds consciousness itself, then you are probably right but that is not as interesting, is it?
Quite frankly most people would be sorely disappointed if they are told something like: 'God doesn't break the laws of physics he IS the laws of physics'. What 'use' would most people (here obviously I mean others) have for such a God.





You are one hilarious bloke, P_R :smile: And I have not seen anyone who understood Kamal and the Woodster better than you. I mean more than I do, and that's because I learned that from you and am able to embrace it (not that I accepted it 100%). I have only re-read 100 posts, need to contineu. Bravo, P_R.

[equanimus]

I remember finding these digressions (which at any rate were not about Kamal's films) rather tedious!

[irir123]

Richard Dawkins targets the catholics too.

Historically, every atheist writer/filmmaker primarily critique their own background and where they come from..

if am not mistaken, Dawkins comes from an anglican church background and not catholic! maybe anglicanism was derived from catholicism !

[ajithfederer]

Most sub sects are a derivative of Catholicism, if i am not wrong.

if am not mistaken, Dawkins comes from an anglican church background and not catholic! maybe anglicanism was derived from catholicism !