Sharing Thoughts on Uthiri Pookkal

[Plum]

Udhiri pookalaa? DM-A? I think Udhiri PookkaL. DONT ASK ME TO EXPLAIN. UP-yA? Hey Ram-A? Now, that is delikkat possissan

[kid-glove]

Udhiri pookalaa? DM-A? I think Udhiri PookkaL. DONT ASK ME TO EXPLAIN.

Explain...

[rsubras]

Explain...

boss..plum kulla irukkara writer ah thatti ezhuppidatheenga..appuram avar explain panna aarambicha we might see another seperate thread soon Uthiripookal vs Devar Magan :)

[kid-glove]

Actually, that's exactly what I'd like to see. Flu has a fascinating mind & I'm a fan.

[P_R]

What is there in this bleddy udhirippookkaL I say.
Someone give DVD I say. TV-layin pOda mAtrAinga.

Last time I saw it, it was quite ordinary. IMO TM, Nayagan kitte ellAm nikkavE koodaadhu. veRikka veRikka paarththuttu OdippOyiraNum.

[cinema]

What is there in this bleddy udhirippookkaL I say.
Someone give DVD I say. TV-layin pOda mAtrAinga.

Last time I saw it, it was quite ordinary. IMO TM, Nayagan kitte ellAm nikkavE koodaadhu. veRikka veRikka paarththuttu OdippOyiraNum.

No P_R. You guys(P_R, KG etc) would not have seen with critical eyes. Please see it with your critical eyes. Lot of subtlety and greatness. I think DVD is available in the market. I watched this movie on DVD two years back. Great But I would stay away from comparison with Mahandhi and Hey Ram as you know I am fan of Kamal and will be biased.

[P_R]

as you knowunga poorvaasrama peyar enna?

You guys(P_R, KG etc) would not have seen with critical eyes.
K_G is a liker. avar Plummanaarai ezhudha vaikkaradhukkaaga solraar.

I saw it on DD after a lot of hype one.
From what I remember: some Charuhasan, Foovadhi scenes, which were - acting, dialogues, overall feel - very very very ordinary.
I will watch. ivvaLavu pEr solreengannA yEdhAvadhu irukkalaam. irukkum.

[kid-glove]

Yeah, I liked it. But all things considered, I'm not sure I'd place UP ahead of Nayakan. So hoping Flu's posts would help remind one of its merits.

[Bala (Karthik)]

Watched Udhirippookkal DVD a few years back. Plum/Jaiganes ku erpatta thaakkam enakku erpadala. Marupadiyum paakkanum...

[Plum]

I am not writing any time soon, Git :oops:As I mentioned before, Udhiri Pookal pathi ezhudhaNumnu nenaichA, "What Ay"-kappuram pEnA nagaradhE illai.Avlo dhaan. Onnum solradhukkillai.

[kid-glove]

Watched Udhirippookkal DVD a few years back. Plum/Jaiganes ku erpatta thaakkam enakku erpadala. Marupadiyum paakkanum...
Not just UP, I'd extend it to Mahendran films in general. They are all likable. Maybe even 'poetic' (which is one thing I hope someone could translate into words) But not sure I like 'em as much as Balu Mahendra films.

[Plum]

Now, jaikanes. That's a guy to catch for writing about UP. Avara modhalla valai veesi thedungappA. Indha threadlaye avaru contribute paNNa vENdiyadhu. RajavOda dhukkam visArikavum varala - manushan engE pOnArnu theriyala. Nerd lives close to his place I think. Avara vuttu thEda sollaNum

[cinema]

unga poorvaasrama peyar enna?.

I used to post in the old hub with names cine_info and cine_fan. That hub was very funny and entertaining with no active moderators I believe. After hub imposed lot of rules, the fun part was gone. I have been watching hub on and off and became active early this year. I recall some of the names from the old hub but not whole lot though. Apparently lot of them left.


K_G is a liker. avar Plummanaarai ezhudha vaikkaradhukkaaga solraar.

I saw it on DD after a lot of hype one.
From what I remember: some Charuhasan, Foovadhi scenes, which were - acting, dialogues, overall feel - very very very ordinary.
I will watch. ivvaLavu pEr solreengannA yEdhAvadhu irukkalaam. irukkum.
Uthiripookkal used to crtics darling in late seventies and eighties. For example there was great episode in DD(during 1992 or 1993 I believe) about great tamil movies and the episode started with Aboorva sagotharargal as it was recent one then. the second episode was about Uthiripookkal and they discussed the movie in detail and its greatness. That episode gave me an interest to watch that movie but I did not have chance to watch it until 2-3 years back when DVD was released. I don't remember all the scenes but from what I remember the all the hype about its greatness was justified.

[Bala (Karthik)]

Not just UP, I'd extend it to Mahendran films in general. They are all likable. Maybe even 'poetic' (which is one thing I hope someone could translate into words) But not sure I like 'em as much as Balu Mahendra films.
Same here - kaattu thee madhiri pathikkum (arokyamaa) BM vs Mahendra Singh

[Plum]

I'll try only one item: I am not sure I can do justice so if it doesn't sound great, blame me, not Mahendran.Azhagiya Kanne itself is visual poetry, that and all I think even sceptics(read feeyaar) will agree. Infact, Sriranga Ranganadhanin looks ordinary in comparison for a single parent(ashiwin isn't technically but for all practical purposes,is), two kids, playfulness between them, between them and parent, their ordinary daily routine, the parent's emotional bulwark being the children..ipdi epdi pArthaalum Mahanadhi song loses deposit.. (Ha, now accuse me of being a Kamal fanatic, Nayagan folks!). Ofcourse appa !=amma so a bit odious comparison. I'll continue in next post since my mobile is swallowing para breaks making my posts unreadable

[Plum]

Ashwini and Haja Sheriff(the son, elder to the daughter, Anju) wash the clothes together at padiththuRai. The son is so matter of fact used to assisting the mother at such a young age. It doesn't stand out. apdiyE normalA irukkum. Little Anju watches from distance, and tries squeezing water out of her wet paavadai in the same manner. Heartu melt-O meltu. That is the prelude. Watch out for next post

[P_R]

azhagiya kaNNE - andha pAttE avvaLavA pudikkAdhu.
paadinadhu yaaru?

[Plum]

Ashwini bathes the boy in the song. And in general, that he is the elder and more responsible of the two chldren comes out. Later after Ashwini dies, the chiththi has just entered the household. Young woman, with her own dreams and life. Mahendran has her casually observe as the boy and little girl have their bath. Even if you simply capture it(no freudelent analysis, please!) it, it is possible to milk the sentiment in the scene. Two kids, when mother was there, so much attention and care was showered on them. Now, a chiththi simply watches them managing their own chores. By itself enough to invoke sendiment. Perhaps add a sad version of Azhagiya kanne here, with present and past cut in succession to underline the sentiment? Perhaps have the chithi give villainous expression or disturbed by the children and scold them? Now watch Mahendran at work. He simply matter of fact shows the children bathing and the erstwhile little kid Anju soaping her brother, a role performed by her mother when she was alive. Time has passed. And the little one, instinctively as would a female heart, takes over the mothering role to her responsible elder brother in her small way. Heart is a mish mash of melted wax. Eyes are a misty river. Udhiri PookkaL is why I would NEVER make a obese joke on Anju in my life.

[AravindMano]

azhagiya kaNNE - Janaki. Title song kELunga, adhuvum nalla song.

I am not surprised that UthiripookkaL has not much takers. It's not a look-at-me kind of film that proclaims it's greatness, at times I think the film itself is not conscious about it's greatness. It's just that a film maker in his best frame of mind with the best available resources (including the short story) makes a film in the way he likes and it turns out to be one heck of a piece. I am one absoulte fan.

[Plum]

azhagiya kaNNE - andha pAttE avvaLavA pudikkAdhu.paadinadhu yaaru? Thou art fit only for treasons and strategems!

[kid-glove]

Couple of good examples that worked for me too. Thank you. They did work in giving a matter of fact slice-of-life snapshot(s). And that's a good quality for sure. To create emotion out of moments, brought about by characters. A quality that I cherish about early Mahendran is the fact he didn't direct our (viewer's) attention to him or to his wit, but always the character's. Also, the unbridled quality of letting the character govern the plot & not the plot govern the characters. To sum his films into a plot line would be disservice. All that I get. But...

[Bala (Karthik)]

Couple of good examples that worked for me too. Thank you. They did work in giving a matter of fact slice-of-life snapshot(s). And that's a good quality for sure. To create emotion out of moments, brought about by characters. A quality that I cherish about early Mahendran is the fact he didn't direct our (viewer's) attention to him or to his wit, but always the character's. Also, the unbridled quality of letting the character govern the plot & not the plot govern the characters. To sum his films into a plot line would be disservice. All that I get. But...
Super :)

[Plum]

azhagiya kaNNE - Janaki. Title song kELunga, adhuvum nalla song.I am not surprised that UthiripookkaL has not much takers. It's not a look-at-me kind of film that proclaims it's greatness, at times I think the film itself is not conscious about it's greatness. It's just that a film maker in his best frame of mind with the best available resources (including the short story) makes a film in the way he likes and it turns out to be one heck of a piece. I am one absoulte fan. Aye, aye. Lovely, AM, lovely. Tm, N paththi ellaam karuththu irukkaa?

[Plum]

Why I mentioned the technique of a sad song with either a)cut between past and present to underline the character's misfortune and changed circumstances b) montage of the character's past to summarise/outline the current plight is think Sethu for a) - Vikram hale and healthy in the past, emaciated in the present, is underlined in Enge Sellum. For b), countless examples. Thenpaandi cheemaiyile? Mahendran doesn't need these props to invoke your tears. He simply shows the moment. And the rest your heart does it.

[cinema]

Mani Rathnam once said "If I get anywhere near what Mahendran did in Udhiri Pookkal, I’ll be a happy man." But the matter is Kamal never said that because Kamal wanted to go above that.

[Plum]

Indha subtlety, subtletyngaraingaLE. Andha subtlety-aiyE subtle-A sonnadhu Mahendran dhaan. NammallAm explicitA thuruthikittu nikkaRadhaiyE subtletynu koNdAdarOm...

[cinema]

Indha subtlety, subtletyngaraingaLE. Andha subtlety-aiyE subtle-A sonnadhu Mahendran dhaan. NammallAm explicitA thuruthikittu nikkaRadhaiyE subtletynu koNdAdarOm...

Very general statement. Quote with examples.

[Plum]

Title song: hey chinna poongatru thaalatta. Raja's voice plays with your heart like it was his violin string. And he hints the first interlude of Azhagiya Kanne in the first interlude here. That interlude captures the helplessness but small happiness of Ashwini's situation. Ofcourse, TM has its own musical motifs and BGM. But, Raja is a character here. He is there. You don't see hom but You knowhe is there. You don't pay attention to him but all the while he is occupying your mind as much as what you are watching on screen. Probably, it is Raja who tilts the scales for me. His craft is at a higher peak here. Yes, it is raw, it being only his third year in TF. But that suits Udhiri PookkaL in a way that the organised, tight-orchestrating latter day Raja cannot.

[Bing]

please change the title to Nayagan v Devar Maghan v Udhiri Pookal .. (vera edhavadhu add pannanumnaa requestungo)

[Plum]

Very general statement. Quote with examples.Nothing off my head :( I'll tell you why I made that statement. RecentA sila pala threads-la, idhu subtleA beautifulA solli irukkArnu padichappO, andha timela chippu vandhudhu idhellAm dhaan subtletyAnnu. But I don't remember now and can't be bothered to search now. If you want me to retract that statement since I cannot quote examples, I will.

[kid-glove]

Did UP work 'emotionally'? The visuals in particular. Any particular shot that took us to a heightened state as the character's. Like the close-up shot of Bhagavathar as he feels the cemented wall in Veedu. Which is one of my fav. unadulterated moments on film. Pure cinema.

[MADDY]

Oh really? intha mathiri asssumption ellam panna kudathu..maybe he couldnt even reach that :lol2:

i dont think Mahendran can make a hey ram to save his life......kamal's peak as a director is very high but we have to really see more samples - he needs to make more movies really.......

[cinema]

This is what kamal for me as a writer/director. Whether it is comedy(MMKR etc.,), Action(kuruthipunal, aalavandhan) or drama(DM, Hey Ram, Virumaandi, Mahanadhi), kamal can excel it. Please think about any genre in cinema and related to kamal as creator, you won't feel uncomfortable in attaching that genre to Kamal and the same can't be said to anyone else IMHO.

[rajeshkrv]

Kamal as writer/director is based on his experience with directors but he cant be near to the greats like KB, BM,RCSakthi,Mahendran. He is like kuzhandhai in that area and gets lost in one direction ...

[rajeshkrv]

This is what kamal for me as a writer/director. Whether it is comedy(MMKR etc.,), Action(kuruthipunal, aalavandhan) or drama(DM, Hey Ram, Virumaandi, Mahanadhi), kamal can excel it. Please think about any genre in cinema and related to kamal as creator, you won't feel uncomfortable in attaching that genre to Kamal and the same can't be said to anyone else IMHO.


the movies mentioned. All are not from kamal himself. There was Crazy mohan and ofcourse another fantastic creator MR.Singeetham Srinivasa rao who joined hands with Kamal to give many good movies for us. You cant just give the credit to Kamal for all these.

on another note
See singeetham explaining how Apoorva sagotharargal was made

http://www.youtube.com/user/maatv#grid/user/D6892FA0005E680B

[Plum]

Did UP work 'emotionally'? The visuals in particular. Any particular shot that took us to a heightened state as the character's. Like the close-up shot of Bhagavathar as he feels the cemented wall in Veedu. Which is one of my fav. unadulterated moments on film. Pure cinema. No, kid. You don't get an emotional high in any single shot. That was BM's technique. Imo, I struggle with BM films - they are always mixed. Moments of brilliance. Then ordinariness. Oru volatility irukkum. But then that is the nature of the man. Mahendran is a placid guy. As I observed before, avaroda extra-marital kasamusavE oru placid-looking thuNai nadigaiyOda dhaan, unlike the high profile Balu M, who could mix it up with some top-of-the-line brilliance like Shoba. . The closest you get to feeling a character's emotion is when a Vijayan, with his Life crumbling before his eyesa, and his citadel brought down in a few hours, and facing the fate awaiting him, turns placidly to the people and says "naan paNNa thappulaiye periya thappu ungala violent akkinadhu dhaan". A bit out of the place in that Mahendran seems to have abandoned his character graph suddenly because even 5 minutes before in the movie, you don't see any chance of his character making such an observation. But then, it is his last moment and what he goes through, and perhaps a resigned acceptance brings up that end-of-life wisdom vignette. But Mahendran's triumph is you feel that character's mind at that point. Finally, he repents, and his mind goes not to his individual crimes but the horror of the impact of his psychological violence on the people now turned against him.

[cinema]

the movies mentioned. All are not from kamal himself. There was Crazy mohan and ofcourse another fantastic creator MR.Singeetham Srinivasa rao who joined hands with Kamal to give many good movies for us. You cant just give the credit to Kamal for all these.

on another note
See singeetham explaining how Apoorva sagotharargal was made

http://www.youtube.com/user/maatv#grid/user/D6892FA0005E680B
I never thought of giving credit to just Kamal. Just attaching Kamal to any genre. Kamal did not take complete credit for even movies such as mahanadhi. So you can conveniently ignore the assumption.

[cinema]

P_R

IMO mahendran had different way of story telling. He did not belong to any tamil movie school. He resembled more like Satyajit Ray and Adoor than Balachandar of Tamil. So probably we might have unconciously ignored his movies' greatnes. That is why I asked you to revisit udhiri pookkal. Only in hub some critics value content over entertainment part, which I have never seen anywhere else. So we should give right recognition for Mahendran, which I think he deserves it.

[cinema]

That Radhika, Vadivukkarasi movie - :confused2:



Metti??????????

[rajeshkrv]

Anyways Why is Mahendran and UP talked about in a thread which is specific in the Title DM Vs Nayagan.

Help me understand plssssssss

[Saai]

Nenjathai kiLLaathae eppadiyum ungaLukku pidikkiRathukku vaippilla, because there is Mrs Maniratnam :lol2:

And even I dont get the fuss about Johhny. Sreedevi remba azhaga, cute'a iruppaanga, nalla songs .. and then....

Johhny ku ivlo edhirpaa!!! fuzz na enna maadhiri edhirpakureenga...

Johhny is arguably the most romantic movie so far in Tamil cinema . Johnny Sridevi romance is exactly an anti thesis of Vidhyasagar - Deepa romance. While Johnny feels inferior to his partner and consider it as something more than his worth, Vidyasagar expects gratitude from his lover. Every scene involving both the pairs are great and all the four charecters are nicely defined. Great songs , awesome performances and seamless screenplay. Aesthetically too good especially in terms of song picturization.

This movie deserves the special place atleast for being the best of its genre. I dont think Junk Alaipayuthe or good Mouna ragam will win over Johnny in this aspect.

Please dont ask if this movie id deep or wide :)

[Saai]

P_R

IMO mahendran had different way of story telling. He did not belong to any tamil movie school. He resembled more like Satyajit Ray and Adoor than Balachandar of Tamil. So probably we might have unconciously ignored his movies' greatnes. That is why I asked you to revisit udhiri pookkal. Only in hub some critics value content over entertainment part, which I have never seen anywhere else. So we should give right recognition for Mahendran, which I think he deserves it.

Content and entertainment a? adhepadi? Any content is discussed here because people find it entertaining isnt it? I hope P_R finds Hey ram extremely entertaining and thats why he writes about it - not because Hey raam has lots of pages to read to.

[Roshan]

Saai believe me or not, neenga Johny'a defend paNNa Odi varuveengannu nenechaen, when I was making that post. Neenga already koluthipOttathu has run for 37 pages and now a new panchayathu. But I am out of it. Enakku intha Mahendran movies panchayathula avvaLavu interest kidaiyaathu.

PS: AlaipaayuthE ellaam ennaikkumae naan listla saerthathilla. And Mouna Raagam eppavO list'a vittu thookkiyaachu.

[Saai]

Saai believe me or not, neenga Johny'a defend paNNa Odi varuveengannu nenechaen, when I was making that post. Neenga already koluthipOttathu has run for 37 pages and now a new panchayathu. But I am out of it. Enakku intha Mahendran movies panchayathula avvaLavu interest kidaiyaathu.

PS: AlaipaayuthE ellaam ennaikkumae naan listla saerthathilla. And Mouna Raagam eppavO list'a vittu thookkiyaachu.

Johnny was altogethor a new experience to me when I saw it first time. I have never seen such a movie before in Tamil cinema. It came out as a pleasent surprise when I watched it first time. Absolutely loved it :)

[kid-glove]

Flu,
Choice of extra-marital affairs. :lol:

Yeah! BM seems more sophisticated as a filmmaker. I read that he had seen Lean shoot River Kwai firsthand that eventually lead him to study, analyse & care deeply about films/filmmaking.

Mahendran seems more of a natural, less inhibited filmmaker. There's a styleless style & simple mode of filmmaking.

Re.Johnny, He took out all forms of stylistic touches in props, gags, etc even if it'd have suited a con-man. Rajini was at his most stylish.

[somu_87]

.....

Woowwww ... very good lines .. :smokesmirk:

Intha lines namma thamiz directorgal padicha pothum.... varshathuku pathu jeyam raajakal undavanga :-D .. the basic problem is inspiration yengira perula sila peru e adichan copy panuranga ..

nevertheless the lines are true ..

[groucho070]

Eyes are a misty river. Udhiri PookkaL is why I would NEVER make a obese joke on Anju in my life.:rotfl:

[groucho070]

Career-wise, MR topped Mahendran, at least in some kinda consistency his fans expect. After Hand Give Hand, Mahendran just dried up. What after, antha padame remba sumAr to most (I lauv it).

[Plum]

Johnny - lovelyyA. "Naan apdi thaan pesuven" - most understated, subtle(yeah that word again) romantic dialogue ever. Idhai thaan solREn. When Mahendran does subtle, it is so subtle that people used to gloss, polish, ultra-sophistication and ArpAttam don't really see what the fuss is about.It IS a bit inconsistent in the Balu Mahendra way in that there is brilliance interspersed with ordinariness in the movie and it sticks out. What was that about the climax? Sri and Premi the only ones to stand alone for the concert? No audience, no organisers, and no instrumental players - just Sri sings and police waits in the open air auditorium for Johnny. And ivanga Sri concert-nu poster adichchu ottinA, Johnny Odi OdiyE pArkka varuvaaraam. As soon as "johnny" surrenders, all police vacate the spot, leaving Johnny to come and unite with Archana. The last few scenes ruined it but podhuvaa like feeyaar I am not a sucker for romandic movies and luvs-sendiments in movies but still, romanceunA, the Johnny-Archana romance in the first half is as good as it gets in terms of me heing able to appreciate in movies.Rajni at his near-most-handsome in the Johnny role(TEO taking the top spot for his most handsome look).

[Plum]

NOV, can we change the discussion to "General discussion of Tamil Cinema Classics by Mahendran, Kamalahaasan and Manirathnam" to avoid people like rajeshkrv getting confused

[cinema]

Mahendran started his career really well. Over the period of time he faded away quickly. His later movies were not that great and apparently ran out of ideas. I have seen this happening for many people. One good hollywood example would be night shyamalan.

[Plum]

Nov, don't spin off. Ella discussionum idhE threadlayE irukkattumE as long as we don't veer off to romantic classics by SJ Surya, Murugadoss etc.

[P_R]

Metti?????????? Yeah. The :confused2: was for 'what's great about it'

He resembled more like Satyajit Ray and Adoor than Balachandar of Tamil. So probably we might have unconciously ignored his movies' greatnes. Actually he may be one of the reasons I postponed seeing Ray thinking I may not like him. (In one intree he was talking at length about how Ray is 'the dude' for him etc. My Ray discovery is only this year - the man is absolutely facinating, thoroughly engaging and 'odd as it may sound' there is scarcely a dull moment!

Perhaps now is the time for me to revisit UP


I read that he had seen Lean shoot River Kwai firsthand that eventually lead him to study, analyse & care deeply about films/filmmaking.
Yeah. He narrated this on Coffee with Anu. They went on a school field trip to watch the shooting. They were shooting a rain scene and Lean called : "rain" and it rained. :lol:

[Plum]

7G - himalayan over-rate. I think I have mentioned before - and I remember Feeyaar had similar views - that whole climax sequence intended to be poetry(Yuvan, ironically for a youth generation that has supposedly taken off into a different plane to the elders in matters of romance, channeling Johnny theme music.) is a joke. Chippu chippA varum. Performances are a major reason for that but the director has to take blame, too. I don't blame him. Idhu mAdhiri poetic effectukkAga kavidhai ezhudhu reNdE varushaththula evLO embarassedA koLuththi iruppEn :lol:. When you are young and in the clutches of "romantic beauty appreciation"(not just man-woman loves but in general a romantic outlook to everything), you come out with stuff that is laughable in retrospect. And not twenty years retrospect I mean. Saayam seekirame veludthudum. This discussion strittu stop here. Thread spin off aayidum which I don't want to happen.

[P_R]

7G should have ended with hospital scene, Sonia's maathaji blessing Kathir.
It was ruinous comedy after that.

[Plum]

I'll give you more ammunition. In the train rescue of Tara by Prabhu scene, "kekka yaarum illainu nenaicheengala? Naan irukkenda? Annan irukkenda!" Or something similar. A bit over the top, on second thoughts. The following sequence where he agrees to visit the west mambalam home is a nice delineation. But spoilt by the confrontation motif with Karthik dragging him out of the compound with that coin-spinning BGM. Adhellaam sari dhaan. But these are the unsubtle-subtles I was talking about. Sariya solrennA theriyala - but Mahendran's subtle is really subtle-subtle. It doesn't even stand out like this for discerning viewers. As in, normal viewers don't find the "enga ponnu dhaan" subtle but you do. Mahendran just shows things as they are. But you can piece together meaning without him making an effort at all - no nach dialogues like the above ones you quoted, no hihglighting, underlining etc. For a normal viewer, it might be dull capture of a dull moment in a dull household in a dull oppressed woman's dull life. But the context, what happened previously all make the moment pegnant with meaning. The joy of Mahendran is best felt - not explained.

[Plum]

One more moment from UP: even as I say it, I get the feeling that I might be spoiling it for feeyaar and probably, him coming out with "what the heck, apdillaam onnum illaiye" after he watches but let me try putting my thoughts on paper: Sarath and wife visit Ashwini when the boy gets pox. They leave a basket of fruits which Vijayan questions when he comes home. He wonders why the village doctor had to visit - and then Ashwini meekly says "avarukku enga kudumbatha munnAdiyE theriyum". Vijayan - "?". "Ennai avarukku katti kodukkaradhA pechu irundudhu". There is some womanly pride in her voice - she probably knows that she is spilling out a secret that will only make her sadist husband suspect and hurt her even more than before. Yet, in that moment, she just blurts it out. As though to say " look mister, I maybe your doormat due to my circumstances now but I have had my moments you know. I have had chasers". She is given cause to regret her words immediately by Vijayan but Ashwini did well to play the meek housewife, who softly expresses her momentary defiance of her husband with a factoid that she sure knows will tie him in knots. She also probably knows it will ruin her but cannot stop herself from saying it, with a tone that is a mix of matter-of-fact, wistful recall of her past good times, womanly pride that she is not the unattractive jadam thather husband treats her as these days, and a defiant momentary resistance to her husband. It is a passing moment, and you won't even read much into it until you watch it the third or fourth time. Mahendran doesn't scream attention to that subtle moment with "enga veettu ponnu" type nach dialogues. I don't remember the exact dialogue but it is even subtler than what I posted above. I want to highlight here that the "enga veettu ponnu" is itself subtle only but this gave me a chance to differentiate between "subtle-subtle" and "unsubtle-subtle" hence this post...

[rajeshkrv]

NOV, can we change the discussion to "General discussion of Tamil Cinema Classics by Mahendran, Kamalahaasan and Manirathnam" to avoid people like rajeshkrv getting confused


plum i tried to ask the question to stop the diggression..anyways..

[MADDY]

7G should have ended with hospital scene, Sonia's maathaji blessing Kathir.
It was ruinous comedy after that.

it could be but i dont think i have seen the real impact of death captured on screen more powerfully than that......main implication of death of a dear one is "hollowness" and this hollowness is sickening, nauesiating, pushes you to mental instability - like kameshwaran in MMKR says, "kasakkum, komattum".........life is a struggle after the loved one dies and mind abruptly stops thinking - the complete bersekness that the character undergoes is completely understandable......the loss is accentuated by the mental condition kadhir ends up with and imagining sonia still around..........very disturbing

[MADDY]

7G BGMs ripped off from Johnny-nnu solraanga - naanum andha kaalathula sollirukken during IR family v thalaivar arguements but somehow 7G's BGM has its own place in my books.........

[Plum]

7G BGMs ripped off from Johnny-nnu solraanga - naanum andha kaalathula sollirukken during IR family v thalaivar arguements but somehow 7G's BGM has its own place in my books.........

IR familyAvE irundhAlum, nAn appOvum sonNEn, ippOvum solREn - ripped off Johnny BGM dhAnga. adhE samayam - adhu avar appan veettu soththunga - avaru enan vENA paNNalAmnga - namma yAru kEkkaradhukku

[groucho070]

Doesn't the soundtrack belong to the company that produces the film? IR was a hire, the output belongs to the owner of the film, no?

[Plum]

Oh yes. Copyright wise. I was talking from a intellectual owership POV. The company that owns Johnny BGM might well sue Yuvan if they want. They stand a good chance. But then, who is that? Echo Cassettes? Visiri Cassettes? Who is the producer of Johnny? Does the producer own the BGM? What does the law say?

[wizzy]

remember Priyan stating DM lacked 'finesse' and the remake was done to solely address the same :rotfl2:

[groucho070]

I think Hollywood law padi pArthA, the producers (or their company if its under that umbrella) owns the soundtrack. Not sure what is the Intellectual Property law there says. Ingga remba strictu. Even pop song, let say Michael Jackson, if you want to do a cover (or remix as the knuckleheads in TFM are doing), you need to contact Sony Malaysia, pay the required amount, and do the cover. You don't need MJ's permission. Oh, he's dead. Well, I mean if they are alive. The company that owns should give permission.

[groucho070]

NOV had some stint in music industry. NOV?

[P_R]

remember Priyan stating DM lacked 'finesse' and the remake was done to solely address the same :rotfl2: adang! :lol:

Flau, I get what you are saying. Particularly I catch myself noticing such things in Ray films. I guess - circular reasoning alert - I guess I don't have that much respect for Mahendran to give that much credit. Let me not talk further without watching UP again.

And perhaps, even after I watch, I may still prefer the 'look at me' subtlety. nil. gavani. rasi. Heck I remember the flute piece that is played when Tara gives the security the slip and runs up the stairs. idhellAm enakku oru rarity'nga.

[NOV]

NOV had some stint in music industry. NOV?India la endha copyright law'um irukkuradhaa therila..
in malaysia yes... we even paid for using "nallavar sollai naam kEtppOm" in one of Bommerangx songs.

BUT, I dont know whether the malaysian hip hop artistes are paying for the liberal usage of IR songs in thier albums.....

[groucho070]

Whom you paid it to? Does that mean, Malaysia has copyright holders to the old Tamizh song?

[NOV]

Whom you paid it to? to the owners of the copyright of that song... I was not directly involved and didnt ask for details.
Only knew that no one could sue us.



Does that mean, Malaysia has copyright holders to the old Tamizh song?oh, ippa puriyudhu... we paid to the copyright owners in India!
and to answer your question, yes... malaysian do hold copyright for many old thamizh films... columbia house in malayan mansion is one of them.. they told me personally.
they also mentioned that they bought very old films very cheaply and that the films were not even kept in good order...
they had to use kerosene to clean the reels!

[groucho070]

But I think films-ukkum, songs-ukkum copyrights holder veru veru. Columbia only films, illa? Columbias VCDs are awesome. Superb quality. Remba digress pannurOmA?

[kid-glove]

One more moment from UP: even as I say it, I get the feeling that I might be spoiling it for feeyaar and probably, him coming out with "what the heck, apdillaam onnum illaiye" after he watches but let me try putting my thoughts on paper: Sarath and wife visit Ashwini when the boy gets pox. They leave a basket of fruits which Vijayan questions when he comes home. He wonders why the village doctor had to visit - and then Ashwini meekly says "avarukku enga kudumbatha munnAdiyE theriyum". Vijayan - "?". "Ennai avarukku katti kodukkaradhA pechu irundudhu". There is some womanly pride in her voice - she probably knows that she is spilling out a secret that will only make her sadist husband suspect and hurt her even more than before. Yet, in that moment, she just blurts it out. As though to say " look mister, I maybe your doormat due to my circumstances now but I have had my moments you know. I have had chasers". She is given cause to regret her words immediately by Vijayan but Ashwini did well to play the meek housewife, who softly expresses her momentary defiance of her husband with a factoid that she sure knows will tie him in knots. She also probably knows it will ruin her but cannot stop herself from saying it, with a tone that is a mix of matter-of-fact, wistful recall of her past good times, womanly pride that she is not the unattractive jadam thather husband treats her as these days, and a defiant momentary resistance to her husband. It is a passing moment, and you won't even read much into it until you watch it the third or fourth time. Mahendran doesn't scream attention to that subtle moment with "enga veettu ponnu" type nach dialogues. I don't remember the exact dialogue but it is even subtler than what I posted above. I want to highlight here that the "enga veettu ponnu" is itself subtle only but this gave me a chance to differentiate between "subtle-subtle" and "unsubtle-subtle" hence this post...

Indha madhiri irundha paravaillaiyE. Actually he'd grill & pin her to the corner (visually as well, she's placed in the corner when her husband's around, like most of the film). She says something like 'yenga appakku therinjavar', which he derides further by asking if her father had borrowed money from him as well. And then after a pause, she reluctantly reveals the marriage proposal, & her reaction is of a rabbit up for slaughter. And Mahendran lets it pass. There's no womanly pride here. The only suggestion is of Vijayan using it as another means 'Oh vishayam appadi pOgudha' to do what he does. In fact, he keeps it medium shot with her standing up (hands folded like a slave - as against Sarath's wife being seated to Sarath in their sequence.) & him seated mulling how to inflict more pain on her. There's no psychological nuance suggested in the situation.

[MADDY]

adhu avar appan veettu soththunga - avaru enan vENA paNNalAmnga - namma yAru kEkkaradhukku

adhe dhaan, avar paattellam avalava ketkuradhe illa

[Plum]

:lol: - nAnum dhaan. Namakku avar aNNan esai dhaanga serikkudhu

[P_R]

Flau, unga memory remba convenient-A twist paNNiruchunnu, git_klove niroobichittAr.
padam paakkaadha ennaippOnra pacchiLam baalagargaLai neenga ippadi yEmAththalaamA?

[Plum]

Feeyaar, git sonnaa nambiduvingalaa? I don't agree with him. Avaru thirumba thirumba shot composition, lighting dhaan yosikkiraare thavira character, context motivationlaam kavalaiye padaradhillai. Mahendran was a simple guy - indha ulaga cinema teknik vechellaam edai poda mudiyaadhu. Git keeps making that mistake.Anyway, oru married woman-oda motivations, vaarthaigalin uLLarthangal, idhellaam ungalukku ippo puriyaadhu ;-)Why would she volunteer that information? It is not as if he is going to question her if she said engappavukku therinjavar enakku theriyaadhu. He shows no such grilling intention. As. I remember, he is not even expecting an answer to "kadan vaangi irukkaara".Git oru mudivoda misinterpret pannaa naan poruppillai.

[Plum]

Grill pandravar would have shown some suspicion or measured hook in the first question or even tone of suspicion. Instead, the moment she says "appavukku therinjavar", he has a big laugh and employs his standard weapon of torture - ridicule of her father. Instantneously, without even thinking. And to him, the matter ends there. He has tortured her for the day with that ridicule. That clearly shows he suspects nothing at that point.

[kid-glove]

Why would she volunteer that information? Because he is once again derisive of her father. And his intention was to know why he would send these gifts. Of course, he'd have let it pass. But prior sequences, and also the immediate sequence, we see her father being derided for his debts.

And no, the moment he sees it & hears that it's being sent by 'officer'. He seems suspicious.

Now I'm not asking the actress (who was very ordinary by the way - which is fine by me) to do a Madhabi Mukherjee type nuanced expression. I'm just asking where there is even a hint of it with a) the way the scene unfolds, b) how Mahendran shots the sequence. The same sequence would have been shown with complexity by a master filmmaker.

'ulaga cinema teknik' - enna thappu-ngrEn>? Ennakku Satyajit Ray-um Adoor-um Ulagacinema thaanga. :)

[Plum]

In other words, missing the wood for the trees.What is their equation? They were once presumably a fairly compatible couple. They have 2 children afterall. But she has been a sick cow for quite some while and he is a virile, powerful man seeking release. He is a domineering person by nature. At home and elsewhere. A lot of his frustration about her is that she has outgrown her usefulness to him. And he sees her penniless father as symbolic of her veRumai to him. He is not a puriyaadha pudhir Raghuvaran to grill her like Kid mentioned. In his view, the thought that she can be attractive to another male is ruled out. He takes his own current view of her as default - unattractive, sick woman. His sadism towards her is not physical. It is expression of his frustration at her stymying his prime of life by being useless to him. This shows up in his barbs about her father and family, which keeps cropping up. He doesn't even think of her sister as a potential hunt until the cunning, sycophantic teacher in his school plants the idea in him. He says " I am also thinking about it" but it is clear he wouldn't have dared until the teacher put that in words - that sort of wakes him to the fact that he has the power to actually make it happen. When she says about Sarath visiting, clearly, his default view of her doesn't even plant a suspicion in his mind. It is when she opens that factoid that he wakes up to her womanhood. That someone else can view her differently than him. So I think it is highly unlikely for him to suspect by himselff and grill her. Plus, think of the other side of the equation. A woman in her early thirties/late twenties - sick or not - what humiliation it is to her for being seen as a sexually unattractive specimen by her husband? Is it not likely that it slips out of her tongue about a past where someone found her attractive enough to seek her hand with her father. And Mahendran shows this in a quick flashback to emphasise her wistfulness at the thought of that past where she was not at the wrong end of the power equation. Kid has clearly not applied his mind to the context here. Also, he seems to have read a lot of "reviewing cinema" literature, which, I see, like with Rangan Baradwaj, tends to make people miss the wood for the trees. And apply it in evaluation. I would prefer going by context, charactersiation and psychological motivations.

[P_R]

Feeyaar, git sonnaa nambiduvingalaa? I don't agree with him.
i.e. you are disagreeing with k_g's description of how the events unfolded onscreen?



Ashwini meekly says "avarukku enga kudumbatha munnAdiyE theriyum". Vijayan - "?". "Ennai avarukku katti kodukkaradhA pechu irundudhu". There is some womanly pride in her voice - she probably knows that she is spilling out a secret that will only make her sadist husband suspect and hurt her even more than before. Yet, in that moment, she just blurts it out. As though to say " look mister, I maybe your doormat due to my circumstances now but I have had my moments you know. I have had chasers".

Actually he'd grill & pin her to the corner (visually as well, she's placed in the corner when her husband's around, like most of the film). She says something like 'yenga appakku therinjavar', which he derides further by asking if her father had borrowed money from him as well. And then after a pause, she reluctantly reveals the marriage proposal, & her reaction is of a rabbit up for slaughter. And Mahendran lets it pass. There's no womanly pride here.


Avaru thirumba thirumba shot composition, lighting dhaan yosikkiraare thavira character, context motivationlaam kavalaiye padaradhillai. No. He is indeed talking precisely about how that particular scene unfolds, that conversations.


Mahendran was a simple guy - indha ulaga cinema teknik vechellaam edai poda mudiyaadhu. Git keeps making that mistake. Flau, by saying this is all k_g is doing, I feel you are unfairly summarizing what he said. And furthermore trying to sound like inappropriate tools of assessment are being used. If I didn't know better, I'd say it feels like the usual rage-against-the-pundits here, which you called 'reverse snobbery' recently.


Anyway, oru married woman-oda motivations, vaarthaigalin uLLarthangal, idhellaam ungalukku ippo puriyaadhu ;-)
ippadi sonnA eppadi..
yajamaan, naanga ellAm akkA illaadha aambaLainga.


Why would she volunteer that information? It is not as if he is going to question her if she said engappavukku therinjavar enakku theriyaadhu. He shows no such grilling intention. As. I remember, he is not even expecting an answer to "kadan vaangi irukkaara".Git oru mudivoda misinterpret pannaa naan poruppillai.
Grill paNNaara illaiyAnnu naan padau paarthuttu solREn.

[Plum]

Look, git, I don't subscribe to the techniques which seems to be an expectation of uniformity based on certain European texts on cinema and reviewing cinema. I hate such a scholastic approach to cinema. The notion that only a particular way of shot composition reveals character motivations is anathema to me.

[P_R]

Flau, oru maadhiri neenga solradhu puriyudhu.
As I said, Mahendrar ivvaLO deepnu namba mudinjA enakkum konjam sowriyamA irukkum.

[Plum]

Feeyaar, look at the sequence of events git described. She is meek and he is dominant. Correct. That is the equation. From the beginning of the movie to her death, that is the equation. So, you expect that just because she let's slip a rare minute of unguarded revealation the shot composition should be she standing up to him? Or an expression change? Why can't she be her meek self and still put across a point? Haven't you had associates whom you bully with constant criticism because you have the power, and they are weak to fight, and once in a blue moon, they reveal a proud fact about themselves, but in the same cowering stance as before, and in the same cowering tone? Or haven't you had a manager who has done that to you? I have had both. I understand a lot about power equations. I won't simplify it into a euro-text on "x shot composition means y motive and z power equation"

[kid-glove]

Also, there isn't a glimpse of psychological effect on Vijayan after that. He's still in ascendancy & Mahendran keeps it that way. Not a dent.

What does this have to do with BRangan mode of analyzing & euro-text equation? I'm guilty of overstating shot composition, etc but I believe I've backed it up with actual context here.

[kid-glove]

It is when she opens that factoid that he wakes up to her womanhood. That someone else can view her differently than him.

We clearly saw a different film..

[P_R]

May I come, inside?

Look, git, I don't subscribe to the techniques which seems to be an expectation of uniformity based on certain European texts on cinema and reviewing cinema. I hate such a scholastic approach to cinema. The notion that only a particular way of shot composition reveals character motivations is anathema to me. Uniformity ellAm yaar sonnA?
European text ellAm enakku theriyAdhu. But some things work, some don't.

In fact - much unlike what k_g may say- I think film is a highly highly limited media. Certain things are just impossible to communicate. Like we discussed the ability of music to precisely show the difference between "puthra sOgam" and "poNdAtti seththa sOgam". Communicate the moments, emotions unambiguously and at the same time beautifully is IMO the greatest challenge for a filmmaker.

That sentence is hopelessly soaked in subjectivity :-)

It is a singular style that is expected - as far as I read - I don't see k-g implying that at all.
Just how well it came across. And for that, how it could have been done better-nu solraar. Hence the mention of Masters.



Why can't she be her meek self and still put across a point?
Oh she surely can.
Just that, in my books, that is 'exactly' the kind of real-life moment that because fraught with the risk of not making a good 'film moment'.
My problem - would be the 'ambiguity'.


I won't simplify it into a euro-text on "x shot composition means y motive and z power equation"
edhukku udanE Euro, veLLaikkaaran 'ndreenga?
k_g only quoted Ray-Madhabi Mukherjee.

May I come, inside?

Look, git, I don't subscribe to the techniques which seems to be an expectation of uniformity based on certain European texts on cinema and reviewing cinema. I hate such a scholastic approach to cinema. The notion that only a particular way of shot composition reveals character motivations is anathema to me. Uniformity ellAm yaar sonnA?
European text ellAm enakku theriyAdhu. But some things work, some don't.

In fact - much unlike what k_g may say- I think film is a highly highly limited media. Certain things are just impossible to communicate. Like we discussed the ability of music to precisely show the difference between "puthra sOgam" and "poNdAtti seththa sOgam". Communicate the moments, emotions unambiguously and at the same time beautifully is IMO the greatest challenge for a filmmaker.

That sentence is hopelessly soaked in subjectivity :-)

It is a singular style that is expected - as far as I read - I don't see k-g implying that at all.
Just how well it came across. And for that, how it could have been done better-nu solraar. Hence the mention of Masters.



Why can't she be her meek self and still put across a point?
Oh she surely can.
Just that, in my books, that is 'exactly' the kind of real-life moment that because fraught with the risk of not making a good 'film moment'.
My problem - would be the 'ambiguity'.

Actually you are the heart of the issue I obsess about all the time.
Let me put it crudely:
Dramatization is necessary for the viewer to understand what reactions the author intends to invoke in the audience.
Too much and the aesthetics is compromised - there are some who don't have a problem with that. God bless their souls.
Too little and there is ambiguity - there are some who don't have a problem with that. Them, I shall never understand.

[Plum]

Actually he'd grill & pin her to the corner (visually as well, she's placed in the corner when her husband's around, like most of the film). She says something like 'yenga appakku therinjavar', which he derides further by asking if her father had borrowed money from him as well. And then after a pause, she reluctantly reveals the marriage proposal, & her reaction is of a rabbit up for slaughter. And Mahendran lets it pass. There's no womanly pride here. The only suggestion is of Vijayan using it as another means 'Oh vishayam appadi pOgudha' to do what he does. In fact, he keeps it medium shot with her standing up (hands folded like a slave - as against Sarath's wife being seated to Sarath in their sequence.) & him seated mulling how to inflict more pain on her. There's no psychological nuance suggested in the situation.


This is correct. But note the pause in bold.During that pause, there is nothing to indicate Vijayan is expecting a further answer. He has made his joke, and he has moved on, safe in the knowledge that he has inflicted the day's quota of pin prick. It is Ashwini who volunteers the information. As I said, based on my deep knowledge on power equations - from both sides of the equation - I interpret this as exactly I interpreted previously. She is not a vegetable. She has feelings. She is meek enough to suppress it mostly, but it does come out occasionally but the years of conditioning to submission, it comes out in a placid tone.



edhukku udanE Euro, veLLaikkaaran 'ndreenga?
k_g only quoted Ray-Madhabi Mukherjee
:noteeth: - enakku oru mooda nambikkai. Irrespective of the milieu being analysed, shot composition, formal irreverence, ipdillAm terms pArthA, European texts on Cinema, and Viewing Cinema apdinnu neRaiya books irukku. adhellAm gnAbagam varum...Iadhula dhaan ipdi rules irukkum. ipdinnA ipdi. apdinnA apdinnu. Film edukkaRavan adhai pArththu oh ipdinA ipdiyA-nuttu edupPAn. review paNdravan, book padichitttu ipdinnA ipdinu indha bookla solli irukku, ivan ipdinnA ipdinu arththam varrA mAdhiri eduthirukkAn so thumbs up apdinnu ezhudhaRa reviews pArththu pArththu enakku allergy. A sort of a organised cult feeling. oru spontaneity vENAvA?

[Plum]

Also, there isn't a glimpse of psychological effect on Vijayan after that. He's still in ascendancy & Mahendran keeps it that way. Not a dent.

What does this have to do with BRangan mode of analyzing & euro-text equation? I'm guilty of overstating shot composition, etc but I believe I've backed it up with actual context here.

His attack of her becomes more cruel after that. Now he has got the crutch to chase her to her maikE. From a rather opportunistic sadism before this event, he becomes pro-active and pungent eventually banishing her to her father's home.

[kid-glove]

His attack of her becomes more cruel after that. Now he has got the crutch to chase her to her maikE. From a rather opportunistic sadism before this event, he becomes pro-active and pungent eventually banishing her to her father's home.
Which is something he's always capable of. And even before Sarath steps foot into the household, Vijayan's brother says as much of his sadism. Sarath's character incites & aggravates his natural self, but not ever do we sense anything on lines of:
'It is when she opens that factoid that he wakes up to her womanhood. That someone else can view her differently than him.'
Btw, Ippo neenga kuda factoid-nu sollum bOdhu, nooru critics nyabagam varranga sir. So adhukkunu ungala non-spontaneous combustion-nu solradha?

Satyajit Ray/Madhabi Mukherjee reference. P_R'ku purinju irukkum on how 'pride' rubs off on the male character in their collaborated films. It's not just Madhabi's acting brilliance but also how Ray captures it. And naturally how does one capture it? With a series of shots cut precisely to bring out that reaction. You could 'get' it even if you mute the dialogues. That to me speaks more about brilliance of a filmmaker.

As for Brangan mode, euro-text-nu, I get exactly what you mean. To me, they're far more worthy of the medium than 'contextual' readings. :wave:

[Plum]

Kid, ellaam sari but why :wave:? You are saying the equal and opposite of what I said - that you prefer your way (euro-text, for want of a better word) and I prefer mine(especially as I am not keen on watching a lot of cinema anyway). Idhukku edhukku :wave: ?

[P_R]

enakku oru mooda nambikkai. Irrespective of the milieu being analysed, shot composition, formal irreverence, ipdillAm terms pArthA, European texts on Cinema, and Viewing Cinema apdinnu neRaiya books irukku.
Shots as building blocks of storytelling.
k_g isn't saying I will like this only if has such and such shot composition. He is saying, that is the kind of thing that works well. And Ray is an example of this precision. He makes you understand 'what's running in their mind' in a husband-and-wife situation. Comparatively this one isn't done as well 'ngraar.

i.e. it's not like there is a fetish for the kind of sequence of shots, but that it was a job well done by Ray; and Mahendran doesn't manage to achieve that.



review paNdravan, book padichitttu ipdinnA ipdinu indha bookla solli irukku, ivan ipdinnA ipdinu arththam varrA mAdhiri eduthirukkAn so thumbs up apdinnu ezhudhaRa reviews pArththu pArththu enakku allergy.

Actually enakku idhu paththi contextE illai. But your description feels over-reductionist :-)

[Plum]

Feeyaar, ok I was intentionally reductionist there but what I mean is contemptuously dismissing anything not having that style is what I object to. Just because it is not presented in a style you are comfortable with, doesn't mean it is not there. Doesn't mean it is inferior. This is something that comes across when bookish critics review - a snobbish contempt for anything that doesn't fit their film-class grammar. While I understand the alternative could be a free-for-all which reduces film appreciation as an art - wherein you are free to misuse the "beauty is in beholder's eyes" concept as i observed yesterday - the snobbish contempt seems equally reductionist to me.

[P_R]

you prefer your way (euro-text, for want of a better word) and I prefer mine(especially as I am not keen on watching a lot of cinema anyway)

I don't know what the former is, but I found it agreeable that you note the 'manner of rasanai' has a lot to do with 'one's ambition of coverage' :-)

Not having to form an opinion on 99% of the films out there is a huge relief. gundusattikkuLLayE rasichuttu pOrEn, even if I do not do justice to the medium. And I am not saying this in any one-upsman-y way. I don't believe that I am being fair to most films I dislike- and boy are they many. But then I don't aspire to be fair to begin with!

enakku edhu pudikkalayO naan thoongiruvEn.

The only thing I am fair about is (or so I believe) is not noLLai-nottaiying critical appreciation of a phoren film that left me cold, annoyed and what not.

[P_R]

ok I am not familiar with the snobbish contempt. English oppression in cricket refereeing maadhiri, thou art burdened with the opportunity to enlighten me, some other day some other time.

[Saai]

Johnny's romance was invoked here, so thought i would post some samples that i liked from the new guys and ManiraTnam.........i dunno how to compare, but the new guys have done a terrific job too

7G Rainbow colony la edhunga romance -There is a difference between Tragedy and Romance illayaa. Except the last 20 and parts that Vijayan came 7G is sh#T....even the last 20 minutes doesnot have romance ...its just the tragic part of it . Moondram pirai , sethu maadhiri non-romantic love filim...Ravi krishna and sonya romantica irundhangalaaa ..thala suthudhu. ....

[kid-glove]

'Snobbish contempt'

pliss to show/explain.

"Just because it is not presented in a style you are comfortable with, doesn't mean it is not there. Doesn't mean it is inferior."

Who is this person really? I've actually praised uninhibited style of filmmaking. But stopped short of adding nuance & loaded meaning to a line, which would have certainly benefited from a better treatment than it's been given. That's valid criticism.

:wave: = Ta-ta. Why? Coz my argument is continually misrepresented. And it's tiring for me to sit through false accusations. The latest being 'snobbery'.

[Plum]

But stopped short of adding nuance & loaded meaning to a line, which would have certainly benefited from a better treatment than it's been given. That's valid criticism.
adhaan solREn - isnt that snobbish? nInga unga film-grammar padi treat paNNA dhAn nuance irukkunnu adam pidikkRA mAdhiri illaiyA idhu? evLO dismisiveA nIngaLUm adhai post paNNI irukKInga pArunga...

[app_engine]

Interesting discussion on UP, nanRi Plum, K_G, P_R!

:thumbsup:

I'm happy that I was the theeppoRi for this whole digression :-)

kostin to P_R :

Did you watch UP after you watched thoovAnaththumbikaL or years before that? :wink:

[Plum]

Kid, en kaNakku tally AgudhE. Adhai nInga apdi dismissiveA odhukkittIngaLE - ada mavarasa ungaLukku andha urimai irukku but adhukku badhil sonnadhukku kOvichukittu pOvadhu nyaayamA? NamakuLLa ennangaren?

[P_R]

Flau, snob-nu thittuputtu, snob-A irukkA urimai uNdu-nA enna arththau :lol2:

app_e, thoo thu was this year. UP was onsapanatayaum.

[P_R]

thamizharasan, Satyajit Rayar thiriyila unga karuthukaLai therivinga. aaL illaama tea aathittu irukkOm.

[tamizharasan]

thamizharasan, Satyajit Rayar thiriyila unga karuthukaLai therivinga. aaL illaama tea aathittu irukkOm.

I will.AarambichchathaE naan thaane andha thiriya. It has been a while since I saw his movies but will definitely write there.

[kid-glove]

Kid, en kaNakku tally AgudhE. Adhai nInga apdi dismissiveA odhukkittIngaLE - ada mavarasa ungaLukku andha urimai irukku but adhukku badhil sonnadhukku kOvichukittu pOvadhu nyaayamA? NamakuLLa ennangaren?

Never. Just tired.

I didn't want to say 'oru korvaiya varrudhu', coz if it does, I still have to question why a wise man like Sarath when asking for her hand cites 'thala nimuradha ponnu'. And she would be hiding behind the curtains. Makes feeble, careful attempts to catch a glimpse of him. She seems submissive, as against her sister. She couldn't help but be just that, a compliant daughter/wife/mother. And Sarath is educated & treats his wife with respect, but still the dialogue with Charuhaasan is as if he longs for that type (then what does that say about Vijayan?).

When the kid gets 'pox', V seems callous in his words. He still sends word to Sarath (though he also tries to rip money off it) He actually cares & has genuine affection for his children.

And of course, the lines in climax.

Such inconsistencies made it problematic to attach special significance / nuance(s) to conversations/words. But to go by what they are & what they do (and not always what they 'say'). And I don't think Mahendran is one for dialogues. I feel dialogues are riddled with missteps.

[app_engine]

app_e, thoo thu was this year. UP was onsapanatayaum.

please innOru vAtti parunga :-)

Not that both these movies are directly related but I'm stating from a personal experience and you may like it better. (It's possible you still not get impressed).

If I had watched that Mohanlal movie at my first week of life at Palakkad, I would have dismissed it outright. Actually I was so bored, could not sit thru in theater etc in 'panchAgni' - which got released within a few months of me starting Palakkadan life - but won't hesitate placing that in the "classic list" now. Actually, the picturization of 'sAgarangaLE' alone can give a "run for the money" for tons of songs hailed as classics in TF.

udhirippookkaL - despite the embarassing 'appAvOda kalyANam pAru' song, is the equivalent of any great MF that I've watched. sans any star, hardly any dramatism, hardly any TF grammar, it became a hit in TN :shock: I didn't have an opportunity those days to watch nevertheless the recent internet watch had me so impressed, cry at portions etc.

There are movies that "cater to the taste / existing aesthetic senses etc etc " of audience and become successes (ofcourse not dismissing the difficulty in making them). Both N & DM are of that category.

Then there are movies that do not target any and still become success. thoovAnam, avaL app... & UP belong there. All IMHO and I'm no connoisseur of movie watching.

[Plum]

Kid, as we are discussing last two days in hub, youthnAlE wisdom konjam kammi dhaane? :). When Sarath asks for Ashwini's hand, avaru youthunga.(Although he looks like a 35 plus mudhir iLaignan in the scene). You can't take into account his wisdom as a fully settled package. As for thala nimiraadha ponnu trying to catch glimpses of suitor, ennanga kid, idhellaam naan sollaNumA? Miga iyalbaana oNNunga. You luv marriage plan or arranged? If it is latter, ungalukku idhellaam inconsistency illainu puriya neraiya vaaippirukku ;). And consistency of words is very difficult to achieve in Life Kid. Inge hublEyE consistency maindain paNdradhu evLO kashtam theriumA? I felt that the climax lines - more than being an inconsistency - just reflects what can haapen in the mind of a person when he suddenly loses his power and everything. I think it is possible that wisdom dawns at that moment. And ofcourse he loves his kids, captured brilliantly in the sequence where he finds them sitting hungry by the roadside, gets angry and confronts his second wife, and is thawed completely in a sequence of come-downs from him. That is why the final dialogue to the kids strikes hard. You melt precisely because the kids, having lost the mother, lose the father just when he actually has realised his follies and would probably make a big difference to them. And ironically, if not for his impending fate, he would not have a clear mind that makes it so at that point. I find it quite a digestible logic but logic is the least concern there anyway. Ningallaam kannaalam kattikittu kozhandha kutti pethu valarkara timela paarthuttu opinion sollungangaren :)

[P_R]

pAkkaama pEsakkoodaadhunnu sollittu pEsikkittE irukkEn...

But let me just say, k-g's problems remind me of exactly the kind of problems I had with the movie.

[Plum]

Ungaladhu schoolla P-R. I'll tell you a tale from my post graduation last year. Kurudhupunal. We had this telugu guy in the class(brilliant guy, btw, class topper and all). He watched satisfiedly till the end. On the way back to hostel, romba seriousA: "I don't understand. Kamal had a gun with him and so had Dhanush. Why can't they simply fire at all the rest of the gang and kill them? Why is he asking Dhanush to kill him? :huh:" :-)

[P_R]

Plum "life is inconsistent" ellAm engaLukkum theriyin.
But there is a difference between a creator who is consistently depicting the inconsistencies of life and one who is being sloppy and riding on the 'life is inconsistent, unpredictable'.

Of course, not recalling UP, I am not suggesting that is the case in UP.
But I am fiercely resisting the 'life is inconsistent' argument. idhai romba naaLA romba pEr sollittu irukkAn.

On what basis do you trust Kamal, Woody and not Mahendran-nu kELunga. adhu nyAyamAna kELvi. I have no answer.
k-g yEdhAvadhu internal evidence kudukkalaam.

[kid-glove]

And consistency of words is very difficult to achieve in Life
Agreed 100%. That's why I said.


But to go by what they are & what they do (and not always what they 'say').
It is naturalistic for that reason.

As for youth vs wisdom, I don't think they are linked personally. But that's for another day.


As for thala nimiraadha ponnu
Actually he says that's been the case for years. They're neighbours.

What I'm saying is that the lines mislead but images don't. We see what Sarath really is.

[Plum]

Feeyaar, I am not taking a blanket defence on inconsistency of life. I don't see sloppiness from Mahendran's side. Enakku editing paththi theriyaadhu but therinja varaikkin, I think the editing of the movie deserves mention. Enakku ennamo the inconsistency was properly handled(with the editing helping it)-nu dhaan thonudhu. Ofcourse, TV interviewsla indha pada editing-ai silaagikka andha aattukutti thuLLal synchronization with azhagiya kanne interlude solli mudichuduvaanga. Enakku therinja varaikkin, I think the editors(lenin assisted by Vijayan. They weren't lenin-vijayan yet) did a fab job in making me not feel the inconsistencies as odd. Ennaala oru sadist manager kitta work pandracheve, kaanfident sema adi vaangudhu. Arrogance submissivenessA mARudhu. This is marital violence on the woman's mind - how do you take a perfectly logical view of her reactions? Submissiveness-one weak potshot-submissiveness-another weak potshot-resignation-confdence-arrogance-submissiveness ipdi pala combination of sequences in power eqautions in life-ai pArthavanA solREn. I fully believe Mahendran has built a strong edifice there. Avare posthavam pottaa dhaan theriyum. Appo kooda nambuvingalaa theriyaadhu

[P_R]

editing-A? adhukkum consistency-inconsistency-kum enna sammandham?? :confused2:



This is marital violence on the woman's mind - how do you take a perfectly logical view of her reactions?
I don't. But I expect the filmmaker to encourage me to relax my 'logical' expectations. I can't explain this.
Woody ellAm anAyAsamA seyvaar. eg. September (http://dagalti.blogspot.com/2011/07/thoughts-sparked-by-september.html), which is nowhere near his best and is far from flawless.


If direction is the seamless assembling of performances to a believable whole - then Woody is a master. If it is also about communicating unambiguously the subtle thoughts running in the minds of those who people the screen (using the notoriously frail combination of 'natural' words and gestures) then Woody is a phenomenon.

You know why a character is saying what he is saying, you know what is a self-deceptive rationalization that follows a disappointment. You know that something is an evasive line, but you also know the one who said it wants to convince himself of what he is saying. You know which line is an accusation - even though it is said in the lightest possible manner; you also know that the speaker caught his insincerely being found out. You can sense how, for a character, certain emotions persist despite the acknowledgement of deceptions and foibles of the other. You sense how something is said aloud and repeatedly not so much because it is true, but because it is a way to rid other competing truths of any mindspace.

And most importantly you know all this is exactly put in there by the creator.

[app_engine]

Also, per my reading, Mahendran did the way he did movies very deliberately & consciously. He definitely knew other ways of making movies too (e.g. he wrote thangappadhakkam and was present during the making of that).

Per varalARRu suvadukaL of dinathanthi, IIRC, he had his own ideas for cinema and fought with money bags as much as he could but was only partially successful in applying them.

[P_R]

And a couple of lines for B(K)


And oh yeah, it's the same movie all over again. And I pity those for whom that is a grouse.
As one of the characters in the film says: Why do we need another book about survival? We have the boy scout manual


Flau,
unga rules-padi, idhellAm engaLai maadhiri youth bachelors paarkka vENdiya padamE alla :-)

[Plum]

Nekku Foody Helen paththi ellAm theriyAdhu. No comments on how you perceive that unambiguity. Ulaga cinema kondu vandhaa iyaam jooottt

[kid-glove]

But there is a difference between a creator who is consistently depicting the inconsistencies of life and one who is being sloppy and riding on the 'life is inconsistent, unpredictable'.
The latter doesn't apply to Mahendran at all. So let's take that out of the way.


On what basis do you trust Kamal, Woody and not Mahendran-nu kELunga. adhu nyAyamAna kELvi. I have no answer.
k-g yEdhAvadhu internal evidence kudukkalaam.
I trust Mahendran.

But his means of filmmaking is in creating naturalistic characters, milieu & letting them take their destiny. And I think Flu got it right on why this is the case. Mahendran is a man of simplistic grounds, needs & desires. And his characters weren't necessarily complicated. Neither were they placed in extraordinary situations, or in elevated planes. In that, his films are more life-imitating. He lets the characters take a natural course.

Kamal/Woody - they're well acquainted - from relationships with different women to wide range of films/books. And naturally, they are fascinated by absurdity of life. They dwell on complicated beings, or in Kamal's case, simple beings put into complicated situations, that simply transcends the 'personal'. Their characters have something interesting to say. And when they make it interesting, they load it with meaning & existential concerns. Both try to litter their films with ideas, gags, and nuances. Almost too much that some audiences would fault it for self-indulgence and can't stand the self-aware mode of filmmaking. Finally, on being well read/acquainted with films - both get accused of plagiarism.

One other thing I'd differentiate between likes of Mahendran and likes of Woody is that the former IS life (which is why matter of fact, slice of life seems more applicable to him), but the latter is about life. I don't think for a moment, the dentists, the writers, and the shrinks of Manhattan are anywhere close to what Woody depicts. OTOH, they're from his imagination and for that particular story/idea to be conveyed, they fit perfectly in that universe.

[kid-glove]

Not sure it's convincing. But I try.

[equanimus]

Indha madhiri irundha paravaillaiyE. Actually he'd grill & pin her to the corner (visually as well, she's placed in the corner when her husband's around, like most of the film). She says something like 'yenga appakku therinjavar', which he derides further by asking if her father had borrowed money from him as well. And then after a pause, she reluctantly reveals the marriage proposal, & her reaction is of a rabbit up for slaughter. And Mahendran lets it pass. There's no womanly pride here.
Grill எல்லாம் இல்லைங்க.. I think Plum is totally right here. Yes, she's unsure whether to say or not, but when she does say it, there's an unmistakable sense of equipoise. [And I didn't even remember this moment much, but went back to it (watched just this moment on YouTube) after reading this whole exchange between Plum and kid-glove.]

80s Balu Mahendra, Mahendran is a topic of especial interest to me, so I thought I'd join this discussion too with my own baggage of mixed feelings about them, both of whom I certainly admire for their accomplishments but have long had a sense that too much is being made out of their oeuvre. (PR, Complicateur and I were discussing this offline some time back.) But sadly, I don't have much time now and won't be able to post further, but felt like chipping in just regarding this bit in உதிரிப் பூக்கள்.

[kid-glove]

Equa,
I thought it was more of a grilling. I watched the video again at youtube. He asked her the question and she replies back. She says no. And then he asks again & digs for a response. So after a pause, she had to say it. Look at his gesture, he goes on lines of 'appo avan romba sondhamo'. So how is this a 'womanly pride' or 'he wakes up to her womanhood'? Especially when said to this guy! Obviously, it incites him further. But that's about it. And we see that she sees him as an abrasive manchild in the immediate sequence with the old lady. In fact she imagines him as a kid. So didn't find any more currency to it, than just our own interpretation to the line. Now we could 'assume' he was a more complicated individual than that. But that's guesswork on our part.

[kid-glove]

Had to look up 'equipoise' - Um, not sure at all. Also, the actress doesn't help. Does she? Or, we're just basing it one some kind of overarching need to make more of that line.

[equanimus]

Equa,
I thought it was more of a grilling. I watched the video again at youtube. He asked her the question and she replies back. She says no. And then he asks again & digs for a response. So after a pause, she had to say it. Look at his gesture, he goes on lines of 'appo avan romba sondhamo'. So how is this a 'womanly pride' or 'he wakes up to her womanhood'?
k-g, I don't think Plum is saying she stands up against him or anything to that effect when he says "womanly pride." (In fact, if I'm reading him right, he on the contrary emphasizes the feminine modesty with which she speaks of what she once was. Come on, she's already smiling a bit when she says, "ச்சே ச்சே, அப்படில்லாம் ஒண்ணும் இல்ல..." (Her reply when he asks, sternly of course, "ஓ, அப்போ அவன் ரொம்ப சொந்தமோ?") Far from the rabbit up for slaughter that you're making her out to be!

[kid-glove]

k-g, I don't think Plum is saying she stands up against him or anything to that effect when he says "womanly pride." (In fact, if I'm reading him right, he on the contrary emphasizes the feminine modesty with which she speaks of what she once was. Come on, she's already smiling a bit when she says, "ச்சே ச்சே, அப்படில்லாம் ஒண்ணும் இல்ல..." (Her reply when he asks, sternly of course, "ஓ, அப்போ அவன் ரொம்ப சொந்தமோ?") Far from the rabbit up for slaughter that you're making her out to be!

I don't know why, but the actress seem to be doing that at lot of places. Just the way her lower lip/jaw moves I guess. Look at the other parts in youtube.

Yeah, rabbit up for slaughter is overstating. I didn't think Flu was speaking of 'feminine modesty' at first. But in his later posts, he did clarify.

But my point is that it seems a bit more assumptive on our part than being 'directed' by the filmmaker. Due to foll.
a) casting of the actress.
b) the immediate sequence of events
c) Vijayan - all nuances seem wasted w.r.t her (Also the pov shot of him as a man-child immediately after)
d) and how the scene is shown

[P_R]

Oh is on yeeteep :oops: Only Bengali padangaL dhaan irukkumnu ninaichEn. pArththuttu Monday eppadi varEnnu mattum pArunga.


Had to look up 'equipoise' - :lol2: kadavuL irukkaan kumaaru

[app_engine]

One of the many reviews of UP on the net (http://myalchemydiary.blogspot.com/2007/06/uthiri-pookal-movie-review.html)

One comment on this site says :



It is told that when 'Veena' S. Balachander saw this movie he told that if Mahendran tried to do the same movie it will be impossible for him to repeat .

[app_engine]

Its not easy watching a movie universally regarded as a classic and fondly remembered by everyone who has seen it. The superlatives contained in any description of the movie create sky-high expectations that are difficult to meet and any negative opinions we feel while watching it are accompanied by doubts as to whether we are missing something that the others saw. There are no such problems with Mahendran's Udhiri Pookkal though. It deserves all the accolades it gets. For the most part.


For the whole review :
http://bbthots.blogspot.com/2008/10/udhiri-pookkal.html

[app_engine]

Possibly old TFM-DFer and our Plum's "friend" raj comments on bb's blog :



Udhiri Pookkal, as you mentioned, is the urai kal. But then, as many people seem to have mentioned here, MM seems to have more votaries and thats nor suprising given its filmi-ness in parts and exaggerated emotions, Goes to show why there could not be another UP in tamil.

Also, I have this urai kal - Mullum Malarum was remade in Telugu(with Mohan Babu and a clueless young Revathi, to boot) while they dare not touch Udhiri Pookkal. Ofcourse, being Telugu commercial movie, they mangled it up - this is where the proof for my assertion that MM is filmi in parts comes to fruition - they simply took the highly filmi parts(annan thangai paasamalaramma) of the movie and retained only that, made the Fatafat character a vulgar caricature(milked it for indencent exposure) etc. The fact that Telugu commercial movie makers could find elements to remake(even if distorting the original in the process) shows why MM would be a league behind UP. I mean, Mahendran managed to camouflage it beautifully but at the end, it was a highly exaggerated characterisation in MM. That no body dared touch Udhiri Pookkal shows how unique it was and how rooted in its soil it was, how rooted in its convictions it was.

Now, people could turn around and say that Kadhalan was never remade so does it make it a classic - in that case, I guess you dont understand the import of my comment.


:lol2:

[app_engine]

Another nice summary of UP in this blog :
http://goodtamilfilms.com/2011/01/02/excellent-uthiri-pookal/



After two hours in which the audience has slowly been more and more revolted by the heinous actions of Vijayan’s character andwould gladly take joy in his punishment, we suddenly find ourselves in the position of sympathizing with that same character. And that subversion of the audience reaction is only possible because Mahendran has slowly developed a character who is not a villain in the black-or-white sense, but rather a flawed and ultimately weak person whose villainy comes as a result of such weakness. Thus, when thrust out of his position of power, and exposed for the pitifully all-too-human underneath, the sense of revenge that we expected to have seems to evaporate beneath us, and this scene of justice feels empty and meaningless.
...
...
Of course, none of this could be done without the excellent performances of the actors involved. Though Vijayan gets most of the spotlight for his layered performance of the despicable lead character, Ashwini and Charuhasan have rendered their characters in an equally memorable way. Ashwini’s portrayal of Lakshmi, Vijayan’s wife in the film, is subtle and believable. The sadness of her character is etched in the lines of her face rather than any overt histrionics, and she is able to convey so much through her eyes alone. Charuhasan, as Lakshmi’s father, plays his role in a dignified manner, with the underlying helplessness of his character only faintly visible underneath his weary, unreadable smile. The supporting actors, including Sarathbabu in a characteristically gentle role, bring their best efforts to the table.

[app_engine]

some information from this blog, though the blog post itself is nothing to rave about (http://worldcinemafan.blogspot.com/2010/10/blog-post.html)



இளையராஜா இசையில் மோனாலிசப்பாணி கடைப்பிடித்திருப்பார்..... அழகிய கண்ணே பாடலில்..ஒரு தாயின் சந்தோசமும்,மனைவியின் துக்கமும் சரிவிகிதக்கலவையாக ஒலிக்கும்.பின்னணி இசையாக அநேககாட்சிகளில் மவுனத்தை இசையாக வழியவிட்டிருப்பார்
...
...
படத்தின் டைட்டிலில் கதை புதுமைப்பித்தன் என்று வரும்.கதை படித்துவிட்டு படம் பார்ப்பவர்களுக்கு ஒரு உண்மை புரியும்.மகேந்திரன் மகத்துவம் தெரியும்.

இப்படத்தின் பாக்ஸாபிஸ் வெற்றி எல்லா பொய்களையும் கலைத்துவிட்டது.ஈரான் நாட்டு பிலிம் இன்ஸ்ட்யூட்டில் இப்படம் பாடம்.இந்திய அரசும் இப்படத்தை பெருமைக்குறிய சொத்தாக வாங்கி பெருமை சேர்த்துக்கொண்டது.
...
...
பாலுமகேந்திரா முக்கியமான நேரத்தில் ஒத்துழைக்காமல் குடைச்சல் கொடுத்ததாகவும், கமல் தன் சொந்தபொறுப்பில் ருத்ரையாவை அனுப்பி படத்தை முடிக்க உதவி செய்ததாகவும் ஒரு தகவல் உண்டு



The last one is a comment on the blog, about MM...

[kid-glove]

Interesting comment by Flu on UP vs MM. But 'precision' in MM (maybe due to collaboration with BM) makes it a more compulsive watch. It features Rajini's best performance and ever persuasive Shoba. While its imitation(s) could have rendered it like pasamalar, in MM, it's very deliberately anti-pasamalar toned. Acting in UP wasn't all that good and some of the very filmmy slapstick attempts at humour (& sore thumb of a song) didn't work. Repeat value of MM is more.

[app_engine]

வசனங்களுக்குப் பெயர் போன மகேந்திரன் ( ரிஷிமூலம், தங்கப்பதக்கம், வாழ்ந்து காட்டுகிறேன்.....) தன்னுடைய இரண்டாவது படத்திலே, வசனங்களுக்குப் பதில் காட்சியமைப்புக்களை நம்பியது முதல் ஆச்சர்யம். படத்தின் மொத்த வசனங்களையும் , இரண்டு A 4 காகிதத்தில் எழுதி விடலாம். (http://ukumar.blogspot.com/2006/12/blog-post_04.html)

[Plum]

Git/app - nAn avan illai :)

[app_engine]

It features Rajini's best performance and ever persuasive Shoba. While its imitation(s) could have rendered it like pasamalar, in MM, it's very deliberately anti-pasamalar toned. Acting in UP wasn't all that good and some of the very filmmy slapstick attempts at humour (& sore thumb of a song) didn't work. Repeat value of MM is more.

plus 1

[kid-glove]

வசனங்களுக்குப் பெயர் போன மகேந்திரன் ( ரிஷிமூலம், தங்கப்பதக்கம், வாழ்ந்து காட்டுகிறேன்.....) தன்னுடைய இரண்டாவது படத்திலே, வசனங்களுக்குப் பதில் காட்சியமைப்புக்களை நம்பியது முதல் ஆச்சர்யம். படத்தின் மொத்த வசனங்களையும் , இரண்டு A 4 காகிதத்தில் எழுதி விடலாம். (http://ukumar.blogspot.com/2006/12/blog-post_04.html)

Adhe adhe!

[app_engine]

ஒரு காட்சியில், இரவு நேரத்தில் குழந்தைகள் இருவரும் நாயகியின் தங்கை வீட்டிற்கு செல்வர். ஏன் என அவள் கேட்க, அந்த சிறுவன் மெலிதாக சிரித்துகொண்டே சொல்கிறான் "பவானிக்கு பசிக்குதாம்". பவானியும் சிரிப்பை படரவிடுவாள். ஆனால் நம் இதயத்தில் இடி இறங்கும்.
(http://www.madrasbhavan.com/2010/10/blog-post_3901.html)

[app_engine]

Excerpts from the interview with 'then mERkup paruvakkARRu' director :

====quote====

இயக்குநர் மகேந்திரன் மீது ஈர்ப்பு வந்தது எப்படி? அவரை நேரில் சந்தித்தீர்களா?


அதேபோல மகேந்திரன் சார் என் எல்லா நாள்களுக்குமான ஆதாரம். 92-ம் ஆண்டு மதுரை அமெரிக்கன் கல்லூரியில் திரையிட்ட "முள்ளும் மலரும்'தான் புதிய திசைக்கான கதவைத் திறந்து வைத்தது. அதுவரை இலக்கியம் படிப்பவனாக மட்டுமே இருந்த என்னில் ஒரு முழு நீள திரைப்படம் நீக்கமற்ற கவிதை நூலாக மனதில் பதிந்தது. மனசு, உடம்பு இரண்டையும் ஒரே நேரத்தில் உறைய வைத்த படம் அது.


ஒரு பனி இரவின் பிற்பகுதியில் அந்தப் படத்தைப் பார்த்துவிட்டு ஏழு கிலோ மீட்டர் வரை நடந்தே வீடு வந்தேன். தூங்கி எழுந்ததும் என் இரண்டு தங்கைகள் மீதும் என்னையறியாமல் அவர்களுக்காக உள்ளார்ந்த கண்ணீர் என்னுள் சுரக்க தொடங்கியது. ஒரு அண்ணனாக உணர்ந்த ஒரு உன்னதமான நிமிடம் அது. ஒரு சினிமா சிரிக்க வைக்கலாம்... அழவும் வைக்கலாம்... வாழக் கற்றுக் கொடுத்தது.. அதுதான் "முள்ளு முலரும்'. பெண்மையின் பேச்சற்ற கணத்தின் பின்னணியில் இருக்கும் மௌனத்தின் அர்த்தம் புரியத் தொடங்கியது.


பின்பு அவரின் அத்தனை படங்களும் என்னுள் உதிரிப்பூக்களாக என்னுள் நிறைந்தது. ஏகலைவத் தவம் தொடங்கியது. ஒரு படத்தை இயக்க வேண்டும் என்றும் அதன் மூலமே அறிமுகமாக வேண்டும் என்றும் தவிப்பு இருந்தது. "ஜானி' மாதிரி ஏன் முயலக்கூடாதென "கூடல் நகர்' படத்தை முயன்றேன். ஆனால் அவரை சந்திக்கும் துணிவு வரவே இல்லை.


"தென்மேற்கு பருவக்காற்று' அத்திசையின் கதவுகளைத் திறந்தது. படத்தை அவர் பார்த்து விட்டார் என்பதை அறியாமலே, என் படத்தைப் பார்க்குமாறு தொலைபேசியில் அவரை கேட்டுக் கொண்டேன்.


அவரோ ""மிஸ்டர் ராமசாமி உங்க படம் பார்த்தேன். நல்லாயிருக்கு. எனக்குப் பிடிச்சிருக்கு''ன்னு சொல்லி ஆச்சரியப்படுத்தினார். மலைச்சரிவில் பட்டத்தைப் பிடிக்க ஓடும் சிறுவனின் பரவசம் என்னைத் தொற்றிக் கொண்டது.


இப்போதும் அவரைப் பார்த்து பேசும் போதெல்லாம் மலைச் சரிவில் ஓடும் சிறுவனாகிறேன்.

மகேந்திரன் மீது மிகப் பெரிய மரியாதை வைத்திருக்கும் நீங்கள்... அவரைப் போல தமிழ்நாவல்களைப் படமாக்குவதில் ஆர்வம் காட்டவில்லையே?


புதுமைப்பித்தனின் சிற்றன்னை நாவலை உதிரிப்பூக்கள் என்றும், உமாசந்திரனின் நாவலை முள்ளும் மலரும் என்றும், சிவசங்கரியின் நாவலை நண்டு என்றும், பொன்னீலனின் நாவலை பூட்டாத பூக்கள் என்றும் அவர் திரைவடிவம் கொடுத்தார். ஆனால் அவர் அந்த நாவல்களின் எழுத்துவடிவத்திலிருந்து திரைவடிவத்துக்கு நிறைய மாற்றங்கள் செய்தார். சத்யஜித் ரேவும் நாவல்களைப் படமாக்கியபோதும் திரைவடிவத்துக்கான பெரிய மாற்றங்களைச் செய்தார்.


பதேர் பாஞ்சாலியும் சாருலதாவும் எழுத்து மூலத்தில் இருந்து விலகியிருந்ததை நாம் அறிவோம். எழுத்துக்கும் சினிமாவுக்குமான மொழியை உணர்ந்தவர்களால்தான் அதைச் செய்ய முடியும். இந்த மாற்றத்துக்கு எழுத்தாளர்கள் சம்மதம் ஒருபக்கம் முக்கியமாகிறது.


இன்னொரு பக்கம் நடிகர்கள். நடிகர்களின் ஆதிக்கம் அதிகமிருக்கும் ஒரு திரைச்சூழலில் நாவலைப் படமாக்குவது படைப்பாளிகளின் கையில் இல்லை. ஒரு சிம்புவோ, ஆர்யாவோ, சூர்யாவோ நாவல் வாசிப்பவராக இருந்து இதைப் படமாக்கினால் நன்றாக இருக்குமே என்று சொல்லும்போதுதான் அது சாத்தியமாகும்.


சமீபத்திய சினிமாக்கள் பற்றி என்னவெல்லாம் பேசுவார் மகேந்திரன்?


"கூடல் நகர்' படத்துக்குப் பின் ஏற்பட்ட பொருளாதார நெருக்கடியின் சஞ்சலத்தில் என் உறுதி சரியத் தொடங்கியது. மசாலா கதைகளை உற்பத்தி செய்யலாமா என்ற எண்ணம் வந்தது உண்மை. அமைதியற்ற நேரத்தில், கைகளை கட்டிக் கொண்டு அவரின் "முள்ளும் மலரும்' காளி எனக்கு நம்பிக்கையூட்டினான். என்னால் தென் மேற்கு பருவக்காற்றை உருவாக்க முடிந்தது.


சென்னை பள்ளிக்கரணையில் அவரை சந்திக்கச் சென்றேன். புறநகர் குடியிருப்பு ஒன்றில் செட்டி நாடு வீடு வகைகளை நினைவுறுத்தும் பேரமைதியான இல்லத்தின் முன் ஜப்பானிய மொழியில் அவரின் பெயர் எழுதப்பட்டிருந்தது. ""வாங்க மிஸ்டர் ராமசாமி'' என்று என்னை அழைத்தார் இயக்குநர் மகேந்திரன். வெள்ளுடையில் இருந்தார். புருவம் சுருக்கிப் பேசினார்.


தென்மேற்கு பருவக்காற்றில் சில காட்சிகளைக் குறிப்பிட்டார். பட விழா விருதுகளுக்குப் படத்தை அனுப்பவும் சொன்னார். சினிமா பற்றிய எனது அபிப்பிராயங்களைக் கூர்ந்து கவனித்தார். இணக்கத்தையும், நம்பிக்கையும் நிறைய தந்தார்.


இயக்குநர் சீனு ராமசாமி என கையெழுத்திட்டு அவரின் புத்தகங்களைத் தந்தார். வீட்டிலிருந்து வெளிவந்து யாருமற்ற அத்தெருவில் வெயிலில் நின்று வழியனுப்பினார். என் தந்தையை அறிந்த மன நெகிழ்வில் நெஞ்சில் கை வைத்து நன்றி சொல்லி விடை பெற்றேன். வீடு நோக்கி திரும்பி கொண்டிருந்தேன். நதிக்கரையில் ஓடும் "உதிரிப்பூக்கள்' குழந்தைகளும், "முள்ளும் மலரும்' ஷோபாவின் பொட்டு வைத்த சிரிப்பும், சுடு தண்ணீரை தூக்க சொன்ன தங்கையின் முன் கையிழந்த அண்ணனின் முகமும், பூட்டாத பூட்டுகளாக மனக்கண்ணில் காட்சிகள் ஓடிக் கொண்டிருந்தன.


"நான் இந்த சினிமாவுக்கு ஒன்றுமே செய்யலை. நிறைய செய்திருக்கீங்கன்னு பலபேர் சொல்லிக்கிறாங்க. ஏதோ ஒரு காரணம். எப்படியோ நடந்திருக்கு. நீங்க நல்லாப் பண்ணுங்க'ன்னு தோள் தட்டுவார்.

காதலி வசிக்கும் தெருவைக் கடக்கும் காதலனின் பரவசம் அவரை சந்திக்கும்போது கிடைக்கிறது. அவரை நாம் பாதுகாக்கணும்.
===end-quote===

Link : http://www.yarl.com/forum3/index.php?showtopic=91192

[app_engine]

The whole dinathanthi stuff on Mahendran had been captured by someone on this link :
http://www.yarl.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10610

Interesting read, without a doubt!

[app_engine]

One interesting info from there :

"துக்ளக்'' என்ற பெயரில் பத்திரிகை ஆரம்பிக்க இருப்பதாகவும், அதில் "போஸ்ட் மார்டம்'' என்ற தலைப்பில் சினிமா விமர்சனம் எழுதவேண்டும் என்றும் மகேந்திரனிடம் "சோ'' கேட்டுக்கொண்டார். அதை ஏற்றுக்கொண்ட மகேந்திரன், கிட்டத்தட்ட 3 ஆண்டு காலம் துக்ளக்கில் பணிபுரிந்தார்.
...
...
அப்போது "சோ''வுக்கு தலை நிறைய முடி இருந்தது. திடீரென்று மொட்டை போட்டுக்கொண்டு வந்தார். "என்ன சார் இதெல்லாம்'' என்றேன்.

அதற்கு "சோ'' என்னிடம், "மகேந்திரன்! அன்றைக்கு உங்கள் குழந்தைக்கு ரொம்ப முடியலைன்னு ஆஸ்பத்திரியிலிருந்து போன் வந்தபோது, என் மேஜையில் இருந்த வெங்கடாஜலபதி படத்தைப் பார்த்து குழந்தைக்கு குணமானதும் மொட்டை போடுவதாக வேண்டிக்கொண்டேன். அதை நிறைவேற்றினேன்'' என்றார்.

[app_engine]

All about UP from there :

மகேந்திரன் டைரக்ஷனில் உருவான மிகச்சிறந்த கலைப்படைப்பு "உதிரிப்பூக்கள்''

மகேந்திரன் திரைக்கதை, வசனம் எழுதி இயக்கிய "உதிரிப் பூக்கள்'', மிகச்சிறந்த கலைப்படைப்பாக இன்றும் கருதப்படுகிறது.
"முள்ளும் மலரும்'' படத்தின் மகத்தான வெற்றியைத் தொடர்ந்து, தங்களுக்கு ஒரு படத்தை டைரக்ட் செய்து கொடுக்கும்படி கேட்டு மகேந்திரனை பட அதிபர்கள் மொய்த்தார்கள்.

ஆனால் மகேந்திரனோ, சினிமாத்தனம் இல்லாமல், யதார்த்தமான கதை ஒன்றை படமாக்க விரும்பினார். இதற்காக, தன் மகள் பெயரால் "டிம்பிள் கிரியேஷன்ஸ்'' என்ற படக்கம்பெனியை தொடங்கினார்.

புதுமைப்பித்தன்

மகேந்திரன் தனது மாணவ பருவத்திலேயே கல்கி, புதுமைப்பித்தன், த.ஜானகிராமன் போன்ற எழுத்தாளர்களின் கதைகளை விரும்பிப்படித்தவர்.

"சிறுகதை மன்னர்'' என்று புகழ் பெற்ற புதுமைப்பித்தன், அற்புதமான சிறுகதைகள் பலவற்றை எழுதியிருந்தபோதிலும், நாவல் எதையும் எழுதவில்லை. "சிற்றன்னை'' என்ற குறுநாவல் ஒன்றை மட்டுமே எழுதினார். ஆனால் அவருடைய சிறுகதைகள் அடைந்த வெற்றியை அந்த குறுநாவல் எட்டவில்லை.

ஆயினும், அந்த குறுநாவலில் வரும் ராஜா, குஞ்சு என்ற இரு குழந்தைகளும் மகேந்திரனின் மனதைக் கவர்ந்தனர். அவர்களை வைத்தே, புதிதாக ஒரு கதையை அவர் உருவாக்கினார். அதுதான் "உதிரிப்பூக்கள்.''

டிமëபிள் கிரியேஷனுக்காக, இந்தப்படத்தைத் தயாரிக்கும் பொறுப்பை தன் நண்பர் பாலகிருஷ்ணனிடம் ஒப்படைத்தார்.

அஸ்வினி

உதிரிப்பூக்களின் கதாநாயகியாக நடிக்க மெலிந்த உடலும், அகன்ற விழிகளும், கூர்மையான நாசியும் உள்ள பெண்ணைத் தேடி பெங்களூர் சென்றார். அங்கு அஸ்வினி கிடைத்தார்.

அவருக்கு ஜோடியாக நடிக்க, முரட்டு மíசை கொண்ட விஜயன் தேர்ந்தெடுக்கப்பட்டார்.

மற்றும் சரத்பாபு, மதுமாலினி (முமëபை), சாருலதா, சிறுவன் ராஜா, சிறுமி அஞ்சு (அறிமுகம்), நடிகை மனோரமாவின் மகன் பூபதி ஆகியோர் இதில் நடித்தனர். கமலஹாசனின் அண்ணன் சாருஹாசன் முதன் முதலாக இந்தப் படத்தில்தான் அறிமுகமானார்.

"முள்ளும் மலரும்'' படத்துக்குப் பிறகு ஒளிப்பதிவாளர் பாலுமகேந்திரா மிகவும் `பிசி'யாகி விட்டதால், ஒளிப்பதிவாளராக அசோக்குமார் அமர்த்தப்பட்டார். இசை அமைப்பு: இளையராஜா. எடிட்டிங்: பி.லெனின் (டைரக்டர் பீம்சிங்கின் மகன்)

"படப்பிடிப்பை தொடங்குவதற்கு முன், புதுமைப்பித்தன் குடும்பத்தாரை சந்தித்து, மூலக்கதைக்காக ஒரு தொகையைக் கொடுங்கள்'' என்று பட அதிபரிடம் மகேந்திரன் கூறினார்.

பட அதிபர் தயங்கினார். "சிற்றன்னை கதைக்கும், உதிரிப்பூக்கள் கதைக்குமë எந்த சம்பந்தமும் இல்லையே! எதற்காக அவர்களுக்கு பணம் கொடுக்கவேண்டும்'' என்று கேட்டார்.

அதற்கு மகேந்திரன், "சிற்றன்னை கதையை நான் படிக்காமல் இருந்திருந்தால், இந்த உதிரிப்பூக்கள் கதையே உருவாகியிருக்காது. எனவே, புதுமைப்பித்தன் குடும்பத்துக்கு உரிய மரியாதையைச் செய்ய வேண்டும்'' என்றார்.

அதன்பின் பட அதிபரும், மகேந்திரனும் புதுமைப்பித்தன் குடும்பத்தாரை சந்தித்து, கதைக்கு உரிய தொகையை கொடுத்தனர்.

பாடல் பதிவு

கண்ணதாசன் எழுதிய "அழகிய கண்ணே, உறவுகள் நீயே'' பாடலை ஜானகி பாட, பாடல் பதிவுடன் பட பூஜை நடந்தது.

பூஜைக்கு வந்த திரை உலகத்தினர், அங்கு நின்று கொண்டிருந்த அஸ்வினியைப் பார்த்ததும், "போயும் போயும் இந்தப் பெண்ணா கதாநாயகி'' என்று நினைத்தார்கள். ஏனென்றால், சினிமா கதாநாயகிகளுக்கு உரிய எந்தக் கவர்ச்சியும் இல்லாத சாதாரண குடும்பப் பெண் போல அவர் இருந்தார்.

கோவை மாவட்டத்தில் உள்ள பாலப்பட்டி, வெள்ளிப்பாளையம் கிராமங்களில் படப்பிடிப்பு நடந்தது.

பொதுவாக, இயற்கையாக - யதார்த்தமாக எடுக்கப்படும் கலைப்படங்கள் ("ஆர்ட் பிலிம்'') ஆமை வேகத்தில் நகர்வதும், வசூலில் தோல்வி அடைவதும் வழக்கம். படம் யதார்த்தமாக இருக்கவேண்டும்; அதே சமயம் அனைவரும் ரசிக்கும்படியாகவும் இருக்க வேண்டும் என்பதில் கவனமாக இருந்தார், மகேந்திரன்.

இந்த விஷப்பரீட்சையில் அவர் வெற்றி பெற்றார்.

"அற்புதமான கலைப்படைப்பு'' என்று பத்திரிகைகள் விமர்சனம் எழுதின.

"நான் பார்த்த உன்னதமான உலகத் திரைப்படங்களில் ஒன்று - உதிரிப்பூக்கள்'' என்றார், "வீணை'' எஸ்.பாலசந்தர்.

இவ்வாறு பாராட்டுகளை குவித்த "உதிரிப்பூக்கள்'', வசூலையும் அள்ளிக் குவித்தது. படம் 25 வாரங்கள் ஓடி, வெள்ளி விழா கொண்டாடியது.

19-10-1979-ல் வெளியான "உதிரிப்பூக்கள்'', இன்றளவும் தமிழ் சினிமாவின் ஒப்பற்ற படங்களில் ஒன்றாக மதிக்கப்படுகிறது. பிரபல ஒளிப்பதிவாளரும், டைரக்டருமான தங்கர்பச்சான், "தமிழில் இதுவரை வெளியாகியுள்ள படங்களில் தலைசிறந்த படம் உதிரிப்பூக்கள்தான்'' என்று கூறியுள்ளார்.

30 நாட்களில் உருவான படம்

"உதிரிப்பூக்கள்'' படம் பற்றி மகேந்திரன் கூறியதாவது:-

"என் ரசனைக்கேற்ற விதத்தில் ஒவ்வொரு காட்சியையும் வித, விதமாக எடுத்தேன். 30 நாட்களில் படத்தை எடுத்து முடித்தேன்.

உதிரிப்பூக்கள் படத்தை எம்.ஜி.ஆர். பார்த்தார். என்னை அருகில் வைத்துக்கொண்டு படம் முடிந்ததும் என் தோளில் கை போட்டபடி காருக்குள் சென்று அமைதியாக உட்கார்ந்தார். நான் மனம் பொறுக்காமல், "படத்தைப்பற்றி எதுவும் சொல்லாமல் போகிறீர்களே'' என்றேன்.

அவரோ என் கரம் பற்றி தழுதழுத்த குரலில் "மகேந்திரன்! ரொம்ப வருஷங்களுக்குப்பிறகு இன்றுதான் நான் நிம்மதியாக தூங்கப் போகிறேன்'' என்றார்.

அவர் அப்படிச் சொன்னதன் பொருள் இன்றுவரை எனக்குத் தெரியவில்லை.

உதிரிப்பூக்கள் வெளிவந்து 25 ஆண்டுகள் ஆகிவிட்டன. இன்றும் அந்தப்படத்தைப் பற்றி மறக்காமல் பாராட்டுகிறார்கள். இதைத்தான் உண்மையான வெற்றி என்று கருதுகிறேன். இதற்கெல்லாம் நான் நன்றி சொல்ல வேண்டியது, "சிற்றன்னை'' படைத்த அமரர் புதுமைப்பித்தன் அவர்களுக்கே.

[Nerd]

The whole dinathanthi stuff on Mahendran had been captured by someone on this link :
http://www.yarl.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10610

Interesting read, without a doubt!
Nice link there. Saasanam/Aravindasaamy national award material?! I saw the film a few months ago. Pathetic film. I mean you could see flashes of brilliance even in a Nandu/Metti etc., but Saasanam was just intolerable.

[P_R]

pArthAchu pArthAchu!

[Nerd]

pArthAchu pArthAchu!

No comments? Simbly waste?!

[HonestRaj]

paththi paththiya prepare aagittu irukkunu ninaikkiren

[P_R]

paththi paththiya prepare aagittu irukkunu ninaikkiren:lol:

Beautiful movie.

But, azhugai ellAm varalai :-)

And this is for someone who is reasonably vulnerable to silrans, helplessness stories.
I guess the kids didn't have any lines. Perhaps if I didn't read about the 'bavAnikku pasikkudhaam' scene I may have reacted differently. Therila.

Really liked the small characters- the barber, his konjal of the kids, the nadar who won't share the radio, boobathy's last "yes sir" (it was overdone the first time) but last one really hit the right note. We don't see his tears, we see Sarathbabu wiping it and then turning away to wipe his. Of all places, naan silightA distap aanadhu inga dhaan.

Loved the throwaway shots of 'passing witnesses': boys in the river when shenbagam, the nude boy in the sand when the Vijayan hits Sarathbabu, the old woman (comes multiple times) but most notably when Shenbagam rushes to Lakshmi's house to eat.

There was set-up for things to come later, like , the first day the teacher is in veLLaiyin joLLaiyin - he rushes inside when he sees the jeep tearing through the road. We've seen the tearing through in the first sequence itself. And of course, Vijayan not knowing swimming.

Vijayan toning down his complaint to his second wife as she emerges from the bath half-dressed was a good one :lol:
The jacketlessness on the other hand, was even more hardhitting.

But I felt that and Haja Sharif replacing Vijayan in the mama's boy scene - though quite well done, seemed 'out of place' in feel (not in content) in this film.

Some over moments: Ashwini not remembering Sarathbabu at all.
Some dramatisaum: maapla provoking, Vijayan's villainy 'vaazhnaal poora nee...'. P.S.Veerappa laugh mattum dhaan illai. Till then, he never put his cruelty so bluntly and was excellent.
His best line, IMO, was when he does not resist being branded a monster but he has become so after being married to an invalid and it is up to you (Charuhasan) to make him a man by giving him his daughter.

Wouldn't really call the dialogues subtle. Largely in your face. Particularly summary ending and all.
BGM vegu siRappAga irundhadhu. In some places - like the panjAyathu fight scene and all - I felt could be reused to full effect elsewhere.
nadippu - therlabA. Filim naturalAvum irukkaNum, nadippum kaNNukku theriyira (appreciate paNNa mudiyira maadhiri) irukkaNumnA kashtam dhaanO?

Climax did not make much of an impact on me. Fable range pOla.

Overall highly impressive and lives up to the hype.

[Plum]

:clap:idhu pOdhumyA!

[P_R]

aanaa Naikan kitta ellAm nerungavE mudiyAdhu enbadhai uRudhiyudan theriviththu koLgiREn.

[Plum]

pOvudhu sollittu pOnga. Next round-la adhaiyum mAththiralAm.

[P_R]

I didn't like the celebrated 'thagappanA irukka aasappadarEn' that much. Felt it was too clever.

But liked many other lines of Charuhasan (debut, right?)

When his child of a girl says: he wants me I will marry him
Charuhasan gives her a vaanjai filled smile and says
"nee saaptiyA maa?...po, namma reNdu pErum sErndhu saapdalaam"

What a beautiful line.

-You silly thing, don't get involved in all this (he calls her lucky, without elaborating, when she didn't listen to the first time Vijayan broaches the topic. He wants his carefree little one to be shielded from the nastiness of the world?)
- I am your father, I am concerned about you. We'll handle things together
- (to Vijayan) do you have it in you to do this? Have this concern for this girl? Or even for my other girl?


To Sarathbabu (when he declines the alliance)
vandhu yEmAndhu pOreengaLEnnu manasu sangadamA irukku

[app_engine]

Me cried heavily along with the barber :cry: The most moving scene to me...