I have question about IR's composing technique. We all know that he composes tunes first and the lyrics are added later. My question is was he the first to adopt this technique in India or atleast TN?
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I have question about IR's composing technique. We all know that he composes tunes first and the lyrics are added later. My question is was he the first to adopt this technique in India or atleast TN?
I dont know who was first, but in one interview when asked why he does it this way (because ppl are complaining about music taking over lyrics), he mentioned that it is expected as a MD from him that he score music for the mood of the story and likewise it is the job of the lyrist to write songs for the tune. He mentioned that after Kannadasan no one can be creative enough to write lyrics for the music (but I think VM did a great job too)
Nope. I am sure that his predecessor, MSV has a lot of 'tunes-first' to his store. I think, in one interview MSV has told that in many instances whoever turns out first(whether KKD or himself) to the studio has done his part first and the later has followed the predecessor. He(MSV) has not followed any pattern rigidly in this regard.Quote:
My question is was he the first to adopt this technique in India or atleast TN?
In another interview(long back, in DD, i guess) KVM has mentioned that almost all his tunes are "paattukku mettu".
I do not have much knowledge about pre-KVM era. But, some of the songs of pre-KVM era had "tunes first". GR's song "Echi pizhakkum thozhile saridhaana" is an instance of "tune first". Infact the tune is a rehash of his(GR's) old tune for "dheena karunaakaranE natarajaa".
In an interview, for the question "paatukku metta, illai mettukku paattaa?", IR has answered something like "its not mettukku paattu its only sandhaththukku paattu". Though IR has predominantly done mettukku paattu, still, some of his paattukku mettu were very good, for example "dEvan thandha veenai adhil dEvi seidha ghaanam" from unnai naan sandhiththEn(?) is tuned for one of KKD's pre-written lyrics (used posthumously).
Our fellow DFer, MD, Srikanth has said that the creativity of the MD is shown when s/he tunes for the lyrics.
[quote="Kupps"]This may apply to other MD's not to our IR. Raja brings out the feelings of the song musically even before the lryics are Added to it and this is the height of creativity. In case of Prewritten lyrics the MD already has something to work upon-- like he has got a lyric which has got all feelings/emotions written and its only a mere juxtaposing of different tunes and coming up with a good one to suit the situation and lyrics.Quote:
Our fellow DFer, MD, Srikanth has said that the creativity of the MD is shown when s/he tunes for the lyrics.
I think the issue is not about creativity, but it is the challenge of a music director to come up with a tune that is equally appealing and fits well into the sandham of the prewritten lyrics. The yesteryear MDs were experts at that
"In case of Prewritten lyrics the MD already has something to work upon-- like he has got a lyric which has got all feelings/emotions written and its only a mere juxtaposing of different tunes and coming up with a good one to suit the situation and lyrics."
Its not that easy. Tuning to pre-written lyrics poses another constraint/challenge for the composer. Experts like MSV have the ability to change the inherent sandhams the lyricist presents in the lyrics and create his own. That IS creativity. Difficult-to-tune lyrics and unequal lengths of sentences poses a probem for the composer, especially when the lyricist if of the calibre of Kannadhaasan. And the mood of the song is dictated by the situation to which the lyricist and MD must abide with.
IR hasnt come up with a clear answer yet as to why he did mettukku paattu predominantly. Probably he didnt want the lyrics to affect his spontaneity.MSV has attempted both methods in equal measures with astounding success.
Manadhil urudhi vendum( Sindhu Bhairavi), poththi vecha malliga mottu, a couple of songs from Bharathy are amongst some I know of IR that were tuned to lyrics. VaaraNamaayiram from Keladi Kanmani is also a good example and a wonderful tune with smooth scale changes.
all the songs from Swarnakamalam (K. Vishwanath's Telugu movie) were tuned after the lyrics were written...
Well there are various levels of creativity and ability and IR have possibly prooved everything. For Hey Ram and Sambhu, IR scored music after the entire picturization was completed. In Hey Ram case, MD withdrew in the middle of the movie, where as in Sambhu the producer didnt like the songs so he requested IR to score music, both for existing lip movements. So no need have second thought about IR's creativity.Quote:
Originally Posted by thumburu
How does this work ? If something can be changed, it cannot be called by that name. In tamil, letters are classified as kuril, nedil and sandham is basically lists the sequence/combination of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
This is what determines the thalam. This is the reason thalam is specified for songs, (say thiruppaavai) but there is a choice of ragams that you can use with a given lyric.
IR is precise when he says, the songs are written to a sandham. This is because the lyrics can be sung in different tunes, but the sandham remains the same.
Maybe I am missing something here.
kiru,
what is most appropriate translation of sandham in english ( in lay man terms say in a Hindi song, or a Nora Jones song, or is sandham apt or used only in Tamil songs?)
Also Thalam in Tamil songs are rhythm arrangements for the particular song? if Thalam is rhythm pattern, should it be defined strictly and not altered for each specific song?
Prabhudas
"If something can be changed, it cannot be called by that name. In tamil, letters are classified as kuril, nedil and sandham is basically lists the sequence/combination of this. "
Thats only in the written form. When you vocalize the lyrics into a tune, you can change the inherent structure of a line, break a line, elongate a word etc. A classic example always given is the the following song:
avaLukkenna azagiya mugam
avanukkenna iLagiya manan
nilavukkenna iravinil varum
iravukkenna uRavugaL tharum
This was the original lyrics written by Kannadhaasan.
But instead of blindly tuning the lyrics with 3 words/line, MSV wonderfully splits it the following way
avaLukkenna,.....
azagiya mugam avanukkenna,
iLagiya manan nilavukkenna,
iravinil varum iravukkenna,
Now if MSV were to convert this tune into vocal syllables(sandhams) and give it back to Kannadhaasan after say a month or two, even Kannadhaasan wouldnt realize that these were his own sandhams. He would come have come up with an entirely different set of lyrics. They both were creative artistes who played mind games with each other all the time.
ThaaLam is something that is in the composer's hands. He can also have different "nadais" for the same tune/sandham depending on his creativity.
Can you believe that the charaNams of "ponmagaL vandhaaL" were actually written to the tune given by MSV? Notice how the sandhams go in the charanam. Blows you off everytime. He was easily capable of working both ways
I think I understand. (I wish I could listen to the song online. But dont know the name of the movie). Looks like, it is possible to add filler notes, between the notes for which there is lyrics. This is a innovation on the presentation side and I still think it is closely related to the tune setting. The sandham remains the same ie. the beats are determined for 'avalukkena'. Not much leverage there.
Yes, sandham is present in all languages. It is called meter, in English. Listen to 'Twinkle twinkle little star' song in the eponymous movie. The same rhythm/beat pattern, but the tune is different.
Only in our language, the musical concepts are well developed. The kuril/nedil are represented by tha na tha na naa. Traditionally, in TN musical notes were sung only using tha na na. (sa re ga ma pa da ni were later day introductions into our land).
I dont think, MSV's genius is in doubt. He is a master tunesmith. But I think, IR also is good at setting lyrics to tune. He tunes music using the traditional way. Given lyrics, he can immediately break it up for the sandham. Once the sandham is derived. It is a matter of stretching/contracting tha, nas picking on a scale/raagam.
Every MD tries to do something different. Film music is popular music. So change is important. With IR, he has references for every aspect of music. For tunes, it is MSV, for lyrics it is Kannadhasan. With these standards, he goes about trying to innovate. His innovation is to present the tune (almost as good as MSV) but with more western classical music aspects. Because of his goal of trying to embellish the tune with more harmony, he will guitar/piano chords, bass lines, single-note here and there etc. Whenever the song had more chords, I have seen people here (like Srikant) accuse IR of making up the tune from the chords, inherently spoiling the smooth flow of the tune. So some people might think of this as progress/innovation, while others might think of this as 'spoiling the tune'. It is totally two schools of thought in conflict. Personally, I feel, the tunes of MSV flow with more 'ease' than that of IR. But the IR tune will be more catchy and more harmonised. Since I like a more filled out background/harmony and the slightly rhythmic flow I like the music of IR as well. A little bit of 'ease' in the tune has to be compromised for adding the harmony notes/chords.
More later.. (interesting thread)
Here is the link for the song
http://www.raaga.com/channels/tamil/movie/T0000157.html
"This is a innovation on the presentation side and I still think it is closely related to the tune setting. The sandham remains the same ie. the beats are determined for 'avalukkena'. "
You are right. The strict definition of "sandham" refers to the written part which remains the same. However the MD can innovate during the tune setting process like you have mentioned and can alter the lyrical structure.He can break lines in a different manner and elongate/compress certain words to impart a different mood.Instead of sandham I should have used the word "meter" in my earlier post."Meter" is spoken more in the context of length of each note in the tune. Sandham is attributed to the written part.
For example in the song
aththaan, en athhaan, avar ennaithaan
Kannadhasan puts a comma after "aththaan" and hence what does MSV do? While setting the tune, he stretches "aththaaan..." in a yearning sort of way,gives a mini-pause to acknowledge the comma and then proceeds with the rest of the line. But it wont be very obvious to the listener and the tune would still have a natural flow.
" Personally, I feel, the tunes of MSV flow with more 'ease' than that of IR. But the IR tune will be more catchy and more harmonised."
I agree. I dont doubt IR's ability to compose tune for lyrics either. "Mari mari ninne" is a supreme example. I just wish he did more of that. Especially when the quality of lyricists he worked with werent great in the late 80s, asking them to pen the lyrics first would have probably been less of a challenge to them and slightly more of a challenge to IR. When you are used to composing the tune first, after a long time your mind sub-consciously starts giving out tunes that are all inherently set in the same 4/4 beat and has certain kind of predictable patterns. This then carries over to the rhythm patterns too.Atleast when IR did some of those medicore films that didnt provide him any inspiration in the late 80s, he could have adopted pattukku-mettu as some sort of self-imposed challenge. To me, its equivalent to composing a song in a pre-determined raaga. Its an additional constraint that forces the composer to alter his imagination and think in a slightly different way leading to fresh surprises in tune formulation and rhythm pattern.
Vijay, Thanks for your description on those songs of MSV.
Kiru , Thanks.
With my barely minimal music knowledge I agree with your last paragraph, IR indeed lost or losing his experimentation, one reason he mentioned about his lesser interest in film music these days is
" after 825 odd films, adhuve repeatation..a povarudhule enukkum edhuvum pudhusa seyya edhvum ille, adaan non film music le sila albums pannalamanu"
Prabhudas
Hi Vijay,Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
For someone who doesn't no anything about music, this is an awesome explanation. But, I didn't understand the last para about the song "ponmagaL vandhaaL", sandhams in the charanam". can you please explain?
--Thanks.
It is wrong to assume that Raaja creates tune first. In most cases, he creates visual palettes/progression(visual Poetry?) in his mind first and then he creates a tune for the visuals. Nothing but Wind theme music description in the cassette cover is an example of this method.
IMO, this is the best way to compose Indian FILM songs. The exception is when you have poet like Kannadasan transcending the visuals with words. The fact is, there is no poet in 80's who had that talent to consistently transcend the visuals so, it would have been disaster for Raaja to worked with a poet first. Of course, It didn't help the poet that the film song situation were totally crappy for most part of 80's. Simply put, Raaja tune was more powerful than the poetry of 80's and he had talent to create tune in very instrumental and total abstract sort of way. So it was natural Raaja adopted this method more strongly in later period of his career.
There is one more practical reason. Producers mostly had 1 to 2 hrs session to create tunes with Raaja in his peak days. And normally Raaja can create 5 to 6 tunes in 2 hour session but the most poets were not able to come up with lyrics for 5 songs in just 2 hours. So, raaja would create the tune and let the poets take their own time and "figure" out the poetry later.
The main culprit for bad quality of songs is the bad quality of films story/song situation and it is not because of the choice of method made by Raaja.
"IMO, this is the best way to compose Indian FILM songs"
After some point in time this will give way to repetition in rhythms and sandhams as can be seen in many late 80s songs of IR. You have to force yourself to think differently once in a while. Attempting both methods in equal measures gives scope for innovation. It also encourages the lyricist more rather than using him just as a word-filler
"
The main culprit for bad quality of songs is the bad quality of films story/song situation and it is not because of the choice of method made by Raaja."
Bad films and movies have always existed. Good MDs have always found a way to elevate those movies with their music. That includes IR (in his early years for films like Karumbu Vil etc. )
"The fact is, there is no poet in 80's who had that talent to consistently transcend the visuals so, it would have been disaster for Raaja to worked with a poet first. "
True, but he could have tried more. Probably less than 5% of his songs were lyrics first, in my guess. It could have been more like 20%. There were quite a few talented lyricists like Mehta, Muthulingam etc. who werent properly utilized. Instead GA and Vaali ended up penning ordinary songs for IR more often than not.
I understand the practical reason behind the working methods - constraints in sessions time etc. but the loser is art and the listener. One way would have been to avoid those kind of films altogether beyond a point, but we know he didnt.
Thanks senthil.v for making my thoughts more clearer. That was what i wanted to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by senthilv.com
Moreover Most of the times when raja comes up with a tune words are also added to it and he sings out the words to the lyricist [ atleast the first few lines] and there after the lyricist take over and write the full song.
Recently in an interview GA mentioned the first song of VM. Raja was ready with the tune and it was VM's first song for film and when raja Sang out the tune to him VM was dumbstruck and was not able to come up with anything. It was Raja who gave the lead and said 'Ithu oru Pon maalai pozhuthu....' ippa ezhuthunga. rest was history.
How can he stop breathing :!: even when he knows the air is polluted.Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
How can he stop breathing :!: even when he knows the air is polluted.Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
How can he stop breathing :!: even when he knows the air is polluted.Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
rajasaranam, looks like you got too emotional :-)
He need'nt have stopped breathing, he could have done more non-filmi albums like HTNI and NBW rather than accepting movies like Eeeti, chinnappadoss, pickpocket, Yuhadharmam etc.that didnt have a single noteworthy song. Thats what ARR has been doing, being selective with his movies while at the same time attempting more non-filmi projects that gives scope for wider imagination. IR neednt have waited till the tail end of his career, when he is reduced to doing 5 films/year, to attempt projects like India 24hrs or Moods of IR(or even TIS). If these had been attempted earlier in the late 80s, maybe marketing them would have been easier too.
i dont see that IR is in the tail end of his career, specially since TIS is coming. I have a feeling that he will do someting for the generations to come. I also think that IR will start his dream Music college soon.
Vijayr,
Sure i should have got emotional. illaenaa courtla solra maadhri moondru murai sollirupaenaa :D
From such a large account your are finding three or four movies for each period :arrow: rajasthan, thalaimurai etc., for 90's and the movies mentioned here for 80's :(
well i too havent heard the movies you ve mentioned. but chinnapadass ive heard for sure, that too just recently when i saw that movie in SUN TV and was impressed by the songs and got hold of it somehow :wink: which i had heard in my childhood days and forgotten altogether.
'Athu Ithu' is sure a gripping Disco song from that film, the Percusssion part and the tune itself is enough to make it a classic song. listen to Athu... ithu... then the following drum patterns which carries the whole song forward. At first listening i was never impressed but it definetely grows well.
'Paadum baktha meera' is also a very good Duet song to speak about at par with 'o maane maane' from vellai roja. the first and second interlude is just awesome.... listen to it to get a feel please.
'Vaanam thodatha' come on... here Raaja is brilliant with his piano, trumpets drums et all to give us a complete aural feast
'Paakku vethala' is again a good no. the second interlude especially is a great treat
Will try listening to other movies you have mentioned and get back to them.
Since you have dragged in ARR... cant help commenting on him :oops:
He too have a complete set of bad movies like puthiya mannaragal, vandisolai..., pavithra, parasuram, uthaya, E20U18 etc., He is brilliant indeed, knowing his music can gain fame only with big banners he has resorted doing films with noteworthy directors and Production houses.
Non-filmi? ARR ? What wider imagination did you see in Bombay Dreams?
what wider imagination did you see in CBSO Performance?
Are you talking about 'Set me free' ? was is worth second listnening AT all?
LOTR is yet to be released ... Lets wait [ from listening to the intro music from website it sure sounds excellent :) ]
'Vandhe Maathram' is the only worthwhile Non-Filmi album of his till date
IR:arrow: for a man from Pannaipuram Even chennai was a bigger world and his only agenda was to score for film music. He reaching HTNI and NBW within 15 years of his advent into filmdom is indeed greater achievement.
India 24 Hrs was released in 1997 when he was doing 20-30 movies per year and it was not his tail end of his career. he did 10 movies in 2003. 2004 saw only 5 movies as he was busy with TIS. He has come to TIS/TIO not because he has no film works to Do but for he was offered with the project. he doesnt go marketing himself like ARR.
Yes we do need IR to do some non-filmi projects often but if he is able to give us a 'kaatu vazhi' or ' unnai vida' or 'elankaathu' or ' vaanaville' or poo poothathu' we would like him to be still working for films.
The marketing of HTNI and NBW were not great either, even when he was the king at that time. The music of those Albums were far ahead from the reach of common masses. i never heard them till 7 yrs after its release :cry: And I24H - i was not able to get hold of it for 5 long years and TFM page only gave me salvation :)
You getting too much biased towards the working style of ARR is what the problem is :wink: You miss out great things amidst the hype and hoopla :cry:
"From such a large account your are finding three or four movies for each period Arrow rajasthan, thalaimurai etc., for 90's and the movies mentioned here for 80's"
rajasaranam, those are just few examples off the top of my head. There are many many more. Percentage wise only about 20% since 1995 is noteworthy IMO. In the late 80s it was about 40-50%.
Here are a few more dhandams. Luckily since these songs dont stay long with you, you tend to forget the names of bad albums from IR pretty quickly.
Dharmam vellum, poruthadhu podhum, meendum parasakthi, Vaazhga vaLarga , thangamaana raasa, Padichca puLLa etc.
I happened to catch a few of these films sometime back on tamil channels and had a hard time believing that the MD was IR.
Dont be surprised if you havent even heard of some of these titles. There are many like this just from 1988-90. Most of these albums will have 1 passable song followed by 3 dhandams and werent commercial hits either.
"He too have a complete set of bad movies like puthiya mannaragal, vandisolai..., pavithra, parasuram, uthaya, E20U18 etc."
true, but percentage wise its very less. Pavithra isnt a bad album by the way. It had "uyirum neeye" which brought national recognition to UnniK.Sevvaanam was a pretty good song too. Vandichola - the movie was probably bad, not the songs,a couple of them were hits.
" Non-filmi? ARR ? What wider imagination did you see in Bombay Dreams? "
rajasaranam, the very fact that he is even attempting something on that scale is noteworthy when he could be accepting movies left and right in TFM(he even left Anniyan out). Thats my point, I am not claiming that Bombay Dreams or LOTR are great classics. My point is IR could have put to better use his talent in composing more non-filmi albums where he could have shown his creativity and done it in the late 80s itself when he still had some market value. Please try to understand my point. I have not written anything about ARR's non-filmi albums. By IR's own admission he got tired of TFM in the late 80s itself. Then why waste time on the above paadavathi movies and countless others?
"Yes we do need IR to do some non-filmi projects often but if he is able to give us a 'kaatu vazhi' or ' unnai vida' or 'elankaathu' or ' vaanaville' or poo poothathu' we would like him to be still working for films."
those type of songs are few and far in between. You have sift thru a lot of garbage in order to dig out such songs. 1 out of every 5 songs or so.
"You getting too much biased towards the working style of ARR is what the problem is"
there is nothing to get biased about here. I am just laying out the facts.
Re: lyrics first or tune first - I would be just happy if the lyrics were even a little decent in certain cases. In a movie with, with a melodious tune like 'Oh butterfly' you also have 'lovunna lovvu..'. If I were the producer I would have opted for a more subtle lyrics.
One important point made by Senthil that I want to underscore - "In most cases, he creates visual palettes/progression(visual Poetry?) in his mind first and then he creates a tune for the visuals. "
Folks this is a very important observation. This succint statement of Senthil is fecund with a number of germane points. He has elaborated this point earlier with the 'ennuLLE ennuLLE' song. The song plays a progression of changing emotions. It is almost a small story/episode. This is what elevates IR's songs to the level of a composition. Basically IR starts with a 'mood layout' and starts the tunes. This way, even just instrumental music (without lyrics) will be very listenable.
Re: crappy songs of IR - Yes, I am aware of many many songs like this (I have 300 movies of IR :-)) but somehow I am able to distinguish IR from the other MDs. Maybe I haven't listened to much of other MDs. It is difficult to distinguish GK Venkatesh, salil choudhary etc, but dEvA is easy to tell :-)
I also think many of these songs suffered because of the lyrics. The proof for this is that there quite a few versions of hit songs with different lyrics that did not make it to the charts.
The other songs suffer from either non-fresh tunes or orchestration or lack of it (not much harmony, chorus etc).
Another general point about a song becoming popular or not is, I think or believe, that melodies are not things that appeal to people all the time. The more groovy the song is the greater the chances of it becoming popular and IR did lots more melodies. Current MDs are banking on grooves a lot more.
The statistics here wont work out. You are comparing 1000 movies with less than 100 movies, you are comparing close to 5000 songs with less than 300 songs. Yes, IR did scored music for some crappy movies and even some crappy songs, but if you understand the way music is selected for a movie, you will realize that contribution from director (producer and actor to some extend) is very critical. Why dont you take all ARR album where he didnt score for MR or Shankar or BR and see how he shined. Well thats it. For you the music has to have an appeal, but for IR or ARR everything is a good music and they only know the tricks and pain to create them. If the director has good ear and knows the pulse of the audiance, then its a sure hit. Tell me one MR movie where IR failed, or BR movie where IR failed or one Kamal movies where IR failed or one KB movie where IR failed. 0%. You need two hands to clap. IR lot of time could clap alone and give good sound (e.g. Ramarajan, Rajkiran and so many other directors who has no music sense go to IR and just ask him to score music and also ask IR to create scenes for songs).Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
You know what I hate about this forum after listening to all the discussions so far, Tamil people are thankless people. The respect Telugu and Malayalam people has for IR is more than anything to describe.
Ini Tamil Viraivil Saagum
njv,
I accept your points on IR. From vijayr's postings in tfm forum, it is very clear that he is partial in giving due credits to IR. Interests vary from person to person. He may feel only the hit are good. It would have happened for him to hear lot of ordinary songs of IR in the proposition he mentioned.Quote:
The statistics here wont work out. You are comparing 1000 movies with less than 100 movies, you are comparing close to 5000 songs with less than 300 songs. Yes, IR did scored music for some crappy movies and even some crappy songs, but if you understand the way music is selected for a movie, you will realize that contribution from director (producer and actor to some extend) is very critical. Why dont you take all ARR album where he didnt score for MR or Shankar or BR and see how he shined. Well thats it. For you the music has to have an appeal, but for IR or ARR everything is a good music and they only know the tricks and pain to create them. If the director has good ear and knows the pulse of the audiance, then its a sure hit. Tell me one MR movie where IR failed, or BR movie where IR failed or one Kamal movies where IR failed or one KB movie where IR failed. 0%. You need two hands to clap. IR lot of time could clap alone and give good sound (e.g. Ramarajan, Rajkiran and so many other directors who has no music sense go to IR and just ask him to score music and also ask IR to create scenes for songs).Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
You know what I hate about this forum after listening to all the discussions so far, Tamil people are thankless people. The respect Telugu and Malayalam people has for IR is more than anything to describe.
Ini Tamil Viraivil Saagum
Just because of people like him, you should not have cursed Tamil and its people. I feel very sad.
Kiru and others - in connection with the topic of this thread, I wud like to share with you a very deeply insightful article written on IR's composing style and genius in a Tamil magazine 'Kanaiyaazhi' - I translated that entire article in English, but due to lack of time, cud not post it anywhere on the web - if there is anyone willing to spare time and post it on the web, I would be more than happy to send them the English translated version of the article
"The statistics here wont work out. You are comparing 1000 movies with less than 100 movies, you are comparing close to 5000 songs with less than 300 songs. "
njv, I can compare with some of IR's predecessors if you want to. They did substantial number of movies and have given a higher percentage of quality songs in the 60s.MSV's percentage would be close to 80% in the 60s and he was doing about 15-20 movies/year with 6 or 7 songs in each of them. But thats not the point. The point is about avoiding projects that dont inspire you and foscussing more time and attention on doing something that inspired you - like HTNI, NBW etc.
"You know what I hate about this forum after listening to all the discussions so far, Tamil people are thankless people. The respect Telugu and Malayalam people has for IR is more than anything to describe. "
Tamil people are obviously thankful to what IR(and other MDs have) has given them. He enjoyed maximum popularity and undisputed fame for a loong time. You dont have to worry about that. As for Malayalam and Telugu IR was far more selective there and gave a higher percentage of good songs, so maybe there's a reason they hold him in high esteem. Personally, As for TFM, IR has given plenty of uninspired products for me to ignore. Compared with the other big MDs of TFM past and present, the junk albums of IR would be far higher in number. And this is just in the late 80s. If I come to the 90s and post-millenium, the number of medicore products would only be higher.
"Ramarajan, Rajkiran and so many other directors who has no music sense go to IR and just ask him to score music and also ask IR to create scenes for songs)"
well why did he repeatedly accept their movies? whose fault it is? Did anyone force him to? On the one hand he complained that people were giving him the same situations and on the other hand he signed every movie which came his way.
Sometime you just have to do it to keep the relationship (but still ppl ditched him). If people has gratitude, they wont bother these things. Sorry that I replied to your mail to begin with.
All that we do each day do not speak of our max capabilities. To illustrate, an ace programmer may be doing an uninspiring job on an average day (like a data dump or conversion script etc.) Why? Simply because it is his job:-) IR took composing music for movies as his `well-paid' job which also brought friends, admirers and accolades...that doesn't mean each of his assigments were challenging and each of his outputs were exotic...
Pick out those special ones and enjoy...after all it is to our benefit to sift and grab the great ones and be grateful for them:-)
app_engine
well said. btw is your engine running on unix/linux. lol!
"after all it is to our benefit to sift and grab the great ones and be grateful for them"
I am "grateful" for the great songs(although it beats me as to how much one should be grateful to the MD, for the MD too depends on the fan for his survival). I am also critical of the bad ones, especially when they are large in number. I dont think being "grateful" precludes being critical and vice-versa. Apparently njv and a couple of others here are missing the main point.
vijay,
I agree with you...that being a critic at times has its own `kick':-) Enjoy!
"I agree with you...that being a critic at times has its own `kick'"
When did I say this? Yenpa ippadi solladhadhai ellam sonnengareenga? If I speak of bad songs I am conveying my own angst/frustration at those medicore products, not because it gives me any "kick". Its a question of what if. What if IR had avoided all those bad films or limited his films and concentrated more on bringing out more theme-based albums like India 24hrs, Moods of IR etc.?
Hi Guys,
One fine example for IR's beat songs would be ' ninnukkori varnam'. Just hear it using headphones. He'll take u to the heaven. One will feel that there cannot be another great music like that.
Vijay, IR might have simply taken those assignments to pay his bills :-). We need to leave it at that - everyone needs money and how much one needs is a personal decision. It might be that IR needed the money from the 50 movies per year he did for the various activities he did. Now, could he have charged more per film and taken up lesser assignments? That depends on the size of the tamil market at that time. Maybe it wasnt big enough to pay him enough for one project. Remember he wasnt commercially succesful in the money-bag market - Bollywood, which ARR is now and hence can afford to charge more per project.
Next question form you might be, having taken up these assignments, shouldnt he do justice to all equally? Now, thats again a personal thing and for all you know, IR may be genuine when he says that to him a Rasa Magan song is the same as a Thevar Magan song and it takes the same amount of effort and creativity for both. I personally dont credit that as absolute truth but for all I know, this might be his real philosophy - the creative flourishes we identify and enjoy in Devar magan may all be just spontaneous for him. On the other hand, listening to Rasa Magan situation he might have spontaneously come up with the songs he did for the latter movie.
If the latter is of lesser quality in our perception, how can he be blamed for giving less attention to the latter. In his perception, probnably he doesnt do it consciously. If that is so, it is hardly right of us to criticize that.
The needle is on the producer/director to stir his creativity so that his spontaneous output matches the quality that a discerning listener like you expects. Again, that might not be the director's intent. Again, Rajkiran might be happy with the aatha songs that DID stir a chord with the rustic audience and contributed to the run oft he movies, even though you and I may call them ordinary. So, Rajkiran has got what he wanted, the audience for his type of movies has got what they wanted, why should IR cater to you and me in those type of songs?
Next question that might eb asked is: did he not create magic like 16 Yearsile that captivated rustic audience, you and me alike?
My response is how many movies like 16 yearsinile were produced in the 90's or late 80's?
If you look closely, you will get an answer to all your questions - and definitely, as an IR watcher over the years, I will not suspect his honesty and sincerity towards his craft. It may be just that the crappy songs you and I identify were intended as a different purpose than satisfying discerning listeners like you. As a paid employee, it might have been his intention to give the crappy music demanded by that particular genre(even nattupara pattu was a hit!).
IMO, we should drop this question of %'s of good songs etc. Just enjoy his flourishes.
One more point is that a lot of telugu guys appreciate IR for songs that I,a nd people with taste similar to mine, classify as utter junk. And they have absolutely no respect for a putham pudhu kaalai or a pon maalai pozhudhu even though they are rabid fans of IR(or the IR they know). Similar with several Malayalam fans.
I think that means either IR delibereately chose his target audience for specific projects (which is an awesome achivement if he so consciously managed it) or sub-consciously, he understood the projects requirements and his spontaneous output automatically appealed to the target audience of the project(which is even more an awesome indicator of genius!)
I think it is even more difficult than producing uniform music that is appreciated across a country or the world. MJ appeals to a certain type of audience across the world but can he adapt himself to specific aduience? IR can. Infact, even ARR can. As you might want to add, MSV did. We are fortunate to have all 3 and to me these 3 along with Salil Chaudhary form an awsome foursome in Indian Film music genre.