Ilayarajas songs in different thalams

I dont know if there is already a discussion forum concerning this topic. If there is one please excuse me.

Most of the songs in TFM are set to the 4 beat sequence. And this leads us to the classic Adi thalam. Ilayaraja has composed a few pieces in different thalams. Some of them which i quote from the top of my head are " OM Namaha" from 'Idaiyathai Thirudathey' which is set in misra nadai and " Meetaatha Oru Veenai" from ' Poonthotam ' which is set in kandam.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/musi..._director.504/

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/musi..._director.504/

I have also heard that he has composed a few songs in jampa thalam, but havent been able to locate them.

SD

good topic.
IR has loads of songs in different thaalams, and even in the 4 beat songs he introduces very nice rhythmic patterns.

he has numerous great songs in 7 beats, to list a few:
Isaiyil thodanguthamma (Hey Ram)
Gangai karai mannan adi (Varusham 16)
Paattaale buddhi sonnaar (Karagaattakaaran)
Pottu vaitha oru vatta nila (Idhayam)
and many more...

and "raasathi unna kaanaadha nenju" (Vaidhehi kaaathirunthaal) is in kanda nadai (8 beat cycle with each count in 5 beats).. what a masterpiece song!

Some of the songs with long thalams that comes to mind immediately are "Aiyaa veedu" froma kadhalukku mariyadhai and "valai osai" from sathya.

Compare these with songs like "putham pudhu kalai", "eeramana rojave" :D . This is called mastery :notworthy:

this thaalam stuff is really interesting.

"meettaatha oru veenai" from Poonthottam probably deserves a thread by itself. Its in kanda chaapu but the first interlude seems to bring interesting thaalam variations. In the pallavi we can clearly count "tha ka tha ki ta" (2+3=5) but the first interlude (after the violin starts) seems to go more like "tha ka dhi mi tha ka" (2+4=6) (follow the drums).

Maybe experts can shine more light on this...

ananth,

the song "meettaatha oru veenai" presents some interesting variations in the first interlude and i have to listen to it more intently to understand it better.

The song ' raasaathi unna kaanaadha' is set in triputa thaalam ( 8 beat cycle) tisra nadai ( 3/beat) ..

Few other songs in tisra nadai are

1. Paruvame from 'Nenjathai Killathe'

2. Unnai Naan Ariven from 'Guna' - The song switches to mel kaalam in the latter half.

SD

SD

yup sorry I was wrong abt raasaathi, its in tisra nadai.
I recalled it wrongly in my mind.

the song in kanda nadai is "azhagau malar aada abhinayangal kooda" from the same movie, not raasaathi onna...
would u call it kanda nadai or just kanda chaapu?

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Originally Posted by ananth222

yup sorry I was wrong abt raasaathi, its in tisra nadai.
I recalled it wrongly in my mind.

the song in kanda nadai is "azhagau malar aada abhinayangal kooda" from the same movie, not raasaathi onna...
would u call it kanda nadai or just kanda chaapu?

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makkalae, dont know how you are identifying all these. I really envy you. just to understand raaga and thaala, i am learning carnatic for last 2 years - but believe me, with the phase i am going, i will retire first before knowing these. u guys are great.

Hi guys, interesting discussion atlast!!! What do you feel about this song
"solai kiLigal rendu
Konji konji kulavudhamma", a Mano/SJ beauty of a duet set to GowriManohari scale. Film : Kovil KaaLai

Kanda Thalam is normally used for aggressive numbers such "azhagau malar aada abhinayangal kooda" or Siva Thandavam songs. But i think IR broke the custom and used this for a most melodious KJJ number ... Any guess !!!

It is "Mazhai Varudhu Mazhai Varudhu Kudai Kondu vaa ...".
Plz correct me if i am wrong.

As vkrish says, kanda chapu is used for fast dance steps, but it can also be used to compose melodious slow numbers if the 5 beats are spread over 2, 3 or even 4 cycles and by slowing down the tune. Classic example from carnatic is 'seetha kalyanam'



Another melodious song in kandam is " Alai meedu " from 'Kadhal Kavithai'.

What is the thALam structure for 'kuzhaloodhum kaNNanukku' and 'ninnukkOri varNam'? Both these songs have always fascinated me...

can someone please explain whats the structure of thALam for "vanakkuyilE kuyil tharum kaviyE" from the movie "Priyanka" ?

I was always fascinated by ARR's innovative use of mridangam in Nenjiniley nenjiniley song. For quite sometime, I was under the assumption that no one has tried to use rhythm instruments so differently before ARR. How wrong I was!

Just recently I paid some extra attention to "andhi mazhai pozhigiradhu" song. Amazing! Opening is so much like a western classical, and tabla sounds were beautifully crafted to fit into that WCM mode. Then gradually it fades into a gentle mridangam rhythm (similar to the one used in "poongathavey" song). Does anyone knw wat thalam it is?

The amazing thing abt these songs is that, as a casual listener, u will never know these subtle techniques being used. Its just the mood and emotion that hits u in the face, only on paying attention one gets to know such innovations that goes behind these songs, dat gives the overal feel.

What about the talam of the song Aruna kirana deepam from Guru (Malayalam)?

it is misrachapu.

genrally misra chapu has 7 beats or 14 beats[in the next speed of 7].raaja has done wonders in this thala.for example listen to the pallavi of the song kalidasan kanna dasan from the prabhu film soorakottai singakutty.the song is in misra chapu.every cycle of misrachapu has 14 beats as i said earlier.he has taken two cycles for the rhythm setup which becomes 28.then the rhythm has been arranged as 7 times 4 which is 28. so the rhythm progression on the mridangam goes like this.....
tham tham tham tham tham tham tham .every tham has 4 matras in it. so the sounding will be like a four beat cycle but the thalam is misrachapu that is 7.

generally in the film songs tht has a 7 beat cycle the percussion players play in the mode of 3+4.
but raaja 's innovative mind has thought diff and what we have is a classic song.
one more song has also the same rhythmic structure which i forgot now. will post as soon as i remember.
i dont know whether any one has written this in the forum earlier. if yes sorry about that.
thanks friends

ok, a naive question...is 'malaikkOvil vAsalil, kArthigai dheepam minnudhE' also misra chapu? ( This popular rhythm has 7 beats repeating "ching-gu-ching-gu-ching-gu-chA"):-)

Sun TV used to play this as their "starting music" when the channel was in test mode (or when it was still to start their 24 hr services)

no it is 4 beat cycle.

Yes, Arun, Now I get it:-) Thanks!

chingu-1, chingu-2, chingu-3, chA-4:-)) Must be the most popular beat cycle, I think.

Here's a good primer put together by a DF'er:
http://www.tfmpage.com/my/meter_thalam.html

This has the example of 'oLiyilE therivadhu dhEvadhaiyA' and explains how it's a 4/4.

rAsAththi onna & azhagu malarAda - both pallavi's appear to have 3 beat patterns...Is that correct?

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Originally Posted by app_engine

rAsAththi onna & azhagu malarAda - both pallavi's appear to have 3 beat patterns...Is that correct?

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azhagu malar aada is 5 beat

Arun

How about

1. pon vaaaam panneer thoovuthu (indru nee naalai naan)
2. manasu mayangum (sippikkul muthu)

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Originally Posted by RR

1. pon vaaaam panneer thoovuthu (indru nee naalai naan)
2. manasu mayangum (sippikkul muthu)

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they are both 7 beats.
2 is fairly easy to see, if you count "1 2 3 1 2 3 4", "manasu mayangum" falls perfectly.
in the case of 1, "pon vaanam" starts on the first "3" beat, it may be a little confusing. ("panneer thoovudhu" falls on 1231234). there are similar "off" starts in the charanam also ("mazhai pookkale" starting on second 3)

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Originally Posted by ananth222

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RR

1. pon vaaaam panneer thoovuthu (indru nee naalai naan)
2. manasu mayangum (sippikkul muthu)

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they are both 7 beats.
2 is fairly easy to see, if you count "1 2 3 1 2 3 4", "manasu mayangum" falls perfectly.
in the case of 1, "pon vaanam" starts on the first "3" beat, it may be a little confusing. ("panneer thoovudhu" falls on 1231234). there are similar "off" starts in the charanam also ("mazhai pookkale" starting on second 3)

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It seems when Einstein played the violin very well, a fellow violinist asked him appreciatively, "do you count the beats ?" . Einstein replied, "not at all, it is in my blood".
I am of the opposite kind :-) . So help me understand how this works.
For eg. manasu mayangum - the chandam is th-na-na na-na-na-na so every beat per maathirai. Or am i confused ?

Kiru,
Probably the beat pattern for "manasu mayangum" is like this if we have a seven beat cycle:

ma-1
na-2
su-3
ma-4
yang-5
gum-6
silence before next word-7
:-)

it helps to follow beats in terms of "tha ki ta" etc.
3 beat cycle: "tha ki ta | tha ki ta | ..."
4/8 beat: "tha ka dhi mi : tha ka jhu nu | tha ka dhi mi : tha ka jhu nu | ..."
7 beat: "tha ki ta : tha ka dhi mi | tha ki ta : tha ka dhi mi | ... "
5 beat: "tha ka : tha ki ta | tha ka : tha ki ta | ... "

now these can be combined, multiplied and permuted in different ways. for instance, in "manasu mayangum", the percussion in the intro plays (fast) "tha ki ta tha ki ta tha ka dhi mi tha ka jhu nu" - this is just two 7 beat cycles at double speed, permuted (you can match it with the one in the list above). For the pallavi:
tha ki ta : tha ka...dhi mi
ma.na.su...ma.yan.gum

for "pon vaanam":
tha ki ta.....:.tha ka dhi mi | tha..ki.. ta : tha ka dhi mi
........pon.....vaa.....nam......pan ne...er...tho oo vum

sometimes singing the tune using "tha ki ta..." helps.

Very nice and simple explananation ananth222. Whenever I hear MD's (or other musicians) sing in the form of "tha ki ta...", I used to wonder how they relate to a song or beats. Now atleast I have an idea.

thanks,

Krishnan

I feel that the following songs follow the same pattern as "Manasu Mayangum"

1. Meedum Meedum Vaa - Vikram
2. Aravaudhae en anbae raman - Rajavin Ramana malali - By Bhavadharini
3. Isail thodunguthama - Hey ram
4. Om Namaha - Idhyathai thirudathae

I am not sure about #3 and #4 though. Thanks.

One More with the same pattern .....

"En Jeevan paduthu unnai than theduthu" by KJY.

In all these IR songs, the one common feeling is "longing"
The range is from sexual (viragam) to spiritual (bhakthi).
Thanks.

the other song which i want to mention is kalyana maalai kondadum penne from puthu puthu aarthangal. the song is in 5 beat cycle or say 5/8.the 1st bgm has rhythm and orchrstration like 22222..22222....ie thaka thaka thaka thaka thaka.

This morning 'azhagu malarAda' was on repeat on my car. I think IR has maintained the beat cycle thru-out the song, including the interludes, which wasn't often seen with IR those days (and most hit songs today follow this style, thanks to people liking less complexity). It's very nice to see the "loop" right from prelude all the way to ending:-) It has some very nice bass guitar work as well.

Makes me think the percussion sounds of IR's mono songs score over the stereo songs. In stereo songs, I think tsk-tsk sounds dominate and the bass portion isn't felt much.

Infact Illayaraja uses the same beat cycle as 'Azaghu Malar Aada" for the Malayalam song, 'Poovai Virinju' (Adharvam). It is almost as if he has transposed the song to Malayalam. The ragam is different though. Excellent song. I can't get enough of it. Though I don't understand Malaylam I love the words :)

S.Suresh

Tamizh,

Continuing here from the other thread. I understand what you are saying wrt the rhythm or nadai changes in Rahman's songs. There are definitely many instances when this happens, especially in the interludes.

I was referring more to the complexity of the rhythm in Raja's songs and not just to the nadai variations. I was once watching the Music Show hosted by SPB, "Ennodu Paatu Paadungal". In that a girl was singing a Raja song. (Forgot which one it was.) The song followed one sort of rhythm but the percussions were following a different pattern. After she finished singing, SPB said that it was difficult song to sing since the song went as 4x8 and the rhythm went 5x8 or vice versa. One song where I find such a thing happening is 'Nagu endide' from 'Pallavi Anupallavi'. I always used to wonder how Janaki sung it so well when the rhythm seems to be going in a totally different fashion. Must have a been a challenge to sing such songs when the songs used to be recorded with live instruments. Nowadays such difficulties don't seem to arise to the singers as the song is recorded without any instrument backing, from what I understand.

S.Suresh

I hope tamizh is around..What I was saying in the other thread was IR was the first to use "loops" not ARR (just like app_engine here) :-) ..(in the context of songs without much nadai changes).
Anyways, can you throw some light on the taalam in "shiva karu damaruha layamai naadham" in kochu kochu santhoshangal (mal) ? the song has a different rhythm for every line.
(BTW, IR's usage of bass is different. I am told it is similar to the old baroque - basso continuous or something like that. It does not carry the rhythm, even though at times it drives the rhythm and then switch es to playing counter melody etc. Guitar Prasanna notes this).

Kiru,

My knowledge on rhythm is very barbaric :)

Thanks for bringing up this song, 'shiva kara'. I listened to it trying to keep the beat. I think the song as such is in Adi Talam but there are lot of nadai variations throughout. If I kept the Adi talam beat, then I found that the first charanam was starting 2 beats after the samam but the second charanam was starting on the samam !! So I am not quite sure if I am right.

I know there are quite a few people who have contributed here who have good knowledge on the tala aspects. It will be great if one of them looks into this and gives us an idea of what is going on !!

Luckily I have the online link to this song. Not the original one but the one sung by participants of a competition. Good singing. You can check it out at http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=shODD9HN2iw

S.Suresh

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

Tamizh,

Continuing here from the other thread. I understand what you are saying wrt the rhythm or nadai changes in Rahman's songs. There are definitely many instances when this happens, especially in the interludes.

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I was just listening to Enthan vaanil from Kadhal virus. There isnt much of rhythm changes in it, its not even a valid example, I m sure there are other eligible examples around. But even in this, as we proceed into the first charanam, he just introduces an extra beat (an extra percussion actually). This gives a feeling of getting forward or shifting gears in a song. (Just give a listen, its worth it :) ) And IMO ARR does it more often than IR.

Obviously you guys are talking abt something even more technical, kind dicussions for which I am not qualified :P . Can any of you, point out some IR songs in which IR shifts gear as we proceed into the song. One which comes to my mind immediately is Mandram vantha from Mouna ragam. Oh Vasantha raja is another one. Would love to get introduced to more such songs! :D

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The song followed one sort of rhythm but the percussions were following a different pattern. After she finished singing, SPB said that it was difficult song to sing since the song went as 4x8 and the rhythm went 5x8 or vice versa. One song where I find such a thing happening is 'Nagu endide' from 'Pallavi Anupallavi'.

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I would like to listen to these songs :) . Reminds me of "Newyork nagaram" song, the rhythm goes at almost twice the speed of main melody.. kind of hurrying an otherwise slow song. I have observed ARR use this technique in few other songs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiru

I hope tamizh is around..What I was saying in the other thread was IR was the first to use "loops" not ARR (just like app_engine here) :-) ..(in the context of songs without much nadai changes).

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Sorry Kiru, missed that.. where did you mention loops? I beleive Looping was used for quite a while prior to getting introduced in TFM. I guess loops were used in Pink floyd's song Money as early as early 70's. Informed people can say whether it was the first occurrence.

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Anyways, can you throw some light on the taalam in "shiva karu damaruha layamai naadham" in kochu kochu santhoshangal (mal) ? the song has a different rhythm for every line.

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Thanks for this. Quite honestly listening to (may be observing) such transient rhythms for the first time.

Tamizh,

You may have listened to this earlier but here is an example where percussion plays a very good role in the song. "Poo Malarndida' from Tik Tik Tik. Starts with traditional carnatic music percussion, mridangam and Jesudas's entry with the swaram emphasizes the classical nature of the song. Slowly the instruments backing the song change to western arrangement and when the song ends it is completely western with only a few taps of mridangam added. Shows how Illayaraja fuses two systems so seemlessly together. Observe how the few mridangam beats add to the overall charm when the pallavi is sung again after the charanams.

You can listen to it at http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00668.html

You can also listen to 'Idu Oru Nilaa Kaalam' from the same film. Typical Jazzy arrangement of the drums. Nice introduction of North Indian 'solkattus' in the first interlude.

S.Suresh

Tamizh,

Here is the article written by Vicky which analyzes the complexity of the rhythm pattern in one of Illayaraja's not very often heard song. The song in embedded in the article http://raagadevan.blogspot.com/2008/...-glyphics.html

You can also listen to this song and another song from the same movie (Rajavin Parvaiyil), 'Oru Sudar', which also has a beat arrangement which doesnt seem to fully synchronized with the song itself. Though the beat is constant, the tension is provided by the variance between the song rhythm and the beat rhythm. This song is available at http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00557.html

S.Suresh

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Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan

Can any of you, point out some IR songs in which IR shifts gear as we proceed into the song. One which comes to my mind immediately is Mandram vantha from Mouna ragam. Oh Vasantha raja is another one. Would love to get introduced to more such songs! :D

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"Raja raja chozhan naan"
"Poove sempoove"
"Maamanukku" (Netrikkann - i think the reverse happens here)
"Saandhu pottu oru sandhana pottu"
"polladha madhana baanam"
"Senorita" (Rhythm synching with guitar riffs in the pallavi and settles down in the charanam.. does it qualify?)
"yelai nee etti po" (Mumbai Xpress)
......
....
others, anyone?

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I would like to listen to these songs :) . Reminds me of "Newyork nagaram" song, the rhythm goes at almost twice the speed of main melody.. kind of hurrying an otherwise slow song. I have observed ARR use this technique in few other songs.

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Doesn't the rhythm slow down after the initial guitar strums? Or do you mean that itself is twice the speed of the main melody?
I love this song but i ponder about the rhythm in this song? The rhythm after the initial guitaring is anti-climactic for me but i wonder how else it could have been done.. :)