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Before coming to Pan Peyarthal, later this evening, just a question:
Which came first - the pentatonic scales (5 notes) or the septatonic scales (7 notes)??
Ok, to make my question clearer:
The mela ragas (septatonic) gave birth to the janya ragas,
or the mela ragas were derived from the pentatonic 'janya' raga by the inclusion of two additional notes?
Sabapathy
Idiappam,
I remember reading somewhere that ancient vedic chanting used three or four notes. Ancient flute made of animal bone had only four notes. If I can find my books on music, I can verify and let you know. I think music began with three notes and progressed to seven notes.
rajraj
SOme parts of the Rig Veda and the sama veda are supposed to be sung musically.I have heard this type vedic chanting in some ceremonies I have attended in TN.It was nice to hear that though I did not understand the meanings which the brahmins were chanting
viggop,
Ravishankar (the sitar maestro) says, in his book( My music, my life}, that the earliest chanting was just one note. It progressed to two, three and four. Later they were sung to five,six and seven notes. 'om' has only two notes.
He also says that India developed the seven note octave system long before the west found it.
More later!
Viggop said:
Vedas (not all, probably only the Sama veda) is sung on 3 notes ONLY. Not at all enough to call that music!Quote:
SOme parts of the Rig Veda and the sama veda are supposed to be sung musically.
List of Tamil PaNs (tunes) - as seen in Pinkala NigaNdu
¾Á¢ú Àñ¸û
¦ÀÕõÀñ - 16
1. À¡¨Ä¡ú 2. ¦ºóÐ 3. Áñ¼Ä¢Â¡ú 4. ¦ÀÇâ 5. Áվ¡ú 6. §¾Å¾¡Ç¢ 7. ¿¢ÕÀÐí¸Ã¡¸õ 8. ¿¡¸Ã¡¸õ 9. ÌȢﺢ¡ú 10. ¬º¡Ã¢ 11. º¡Â§ÅÇ÷ ¦¸¡øÄ¢ 12. ¸¢ýÉá¸õ 13. ¦ºùÅÆ¢ 14. ¦ÁǺ¡Ç¢ 15. º£Ã¡¸õ 16. ºó¾¢
À¡¨Ä¡úò ¾¢Èý - 20
1. ¾ì¸Ã¡¸õ 2. «ó¾¡Ç¢À¡¨¼ 3. «ó¾¢ 4. ÁýÈø 5. §¿÷¾¢Èõ 6. ÅÃ¡Ê 7. ¦Àâ ÅÃ¡Ê 8. º¡Ââ 9. ÀïºÁõ 10. ¾¢Ã¡¼õ 11. «ØíÌ 12. ¾É¡º¢ 13. §º¡Áá¸õ 14. §Á¸Ã¡¸õ 15. Ðì¸Ã¡¸õ 16. ¦¸¡øÄ¢ÅÃ¡Ê 17. ¸¡ó¾¡Ãõ 18. º¢¸ñÊ 19. §¾º¡ì¸¢Ã¢ 20. ÍÕ¾¢ ¸¡ó¾¡Ãõ
Áվ¡úò ¾¢Èý - 16
1. ¾ì§¸º¢ 2. ¦¸¡øÄ¢ 3. ¬Ã¢ÂÌîºÃ¢ 4. ¿¡¸¦¾¡É¢ 5. º¡¾¡Ç¢ 6. ¾Á¢ú §ÅÇ÷¦¸¡øÄ¢ 7. ¸¡ó¾¡Ãõ 8. Ü÷ó¾ ÀïºÁõ 9. À¡ì¸Æ¢ 10. ¾ò¾É ÀïºÁõ 11. Á¡Ðí¸ Ã¡¸õ 12. ¦¸ªº¢¸õ 13. º£¸¡ÁÃõ 14. º¡Ãø 15. º¡í¸¢Áõ 16. þó¾Çõ
ÌȢﺢ¡úò ¾¢Èý - 32
1. ¿ð¼À¡¨¼ 2. «ó¾¡Ç¢ 3. Áĸâ 4. Å¢Àﺢ 5. ¸¡ó¾¡Ãõ 6. ¦ºÕó¾¢ 7. ¯¾Â¸¢Ã¢ 8. ¦¸ªÊ 9. ÀïÍÃõ 10. ÀÆõ ÀïÍÃõ 11. §Á¸Ã¡¸ì ÌȢﺢ 12. §¸¾¡Ç¢ 13. ÌȢﺢ 14. ¦¸ªÅ¡½õ 15. À¡¨¼ 16. Ý÷Ðí¸Ã¡¸õ 17. ¿¡¸õ 18. ÁÕû 19. ÀÆó¾ì¸Ã¡¸õ 20. ¾¢ùŢ ÅÃ¡Ê 21. Ó¾¢÷ó¾ Å¢ó¾Çõ 22. «Ûò¾¢÷ ÀïºÁõ 23. ¾Á¢úì ÌîºÃ¢ 24. «ÕðÒâ 25. ¿¡Ã¡Â½¢ 26. ¿ð¼Ã¡¸õ 27. þáÁ츢â 28. Ţ¡úìÌȢﺢ 29. ÀïºÁõ 30. ¾ì¸½¡¾¢ 31. º¡Å¸ì ÌȢﺢ 32. ¬¿ó¨¾
¦ºùÅÆ¢ ¡úò ¾¢Èý - 16
1. ÌÈñÊ 2. ¬Ã¢Â §ÅÇ÷§¸¡øÄ¢ 3. ¾Û측ﺢ 4. þÂó¨¾ 5. ¡úÀ¾í¸¡Ç¢ 6. ¦¸¡ñ¨¼ì¸¢Ã¢ 7. º£ÅÉ¢ 8. ¡¨Á 9. º¡Ç÷ 10. À¡½¢ 11. ¿¡ð¼õ 12. ¾¡Ï 13. Óø¨Ä 14. º¡¾¡Ã¢ 15. ¨ÀÃÅõ 16. ¸¡ïº¢
ÁüÚó¾¢Èý - 3
1. ¾¡÷ôÀñ¾¢Èõ 2. ¨ÀÔû¸¡ïº¢ 3. ÀÎÁ¨Ä
List of Tamil PaNs in Thevarams and Nalayira Theivappanuval (thiviya brapandam) will follow.
Idiappam Sir
WHat is this "Pinkala Nigandu"
Is that a book on Tamil Pan? who composed it and what is the time period? What is the meaning of the word "Pingala Nigandu"?
Lot of Pans seems to have sankrit names! So, I guess this book might have been composed after cultural exchanges between North and South musicians.
When the sama veda was composed , probably only 3 notes were known to the composers then.
I think this thread should be come a sticky on Thamizh Isai!!!
Viggop said:
Pingala Nigandu - a Tamil Lexicon composed by Pingalar, 10th Century AD.Quote:
Idiappam Sir
WHat is this "Pinkala Nigandu"
Is that a book on Tamil Pan? who composed it and what is the time period? What is the meaning of the word "Pingala Nigandu"?
Viggop, not 'Lot' of pans but a few. And why 'cultural exchanges'?? I don't know if the Tamils of the 10th century ate Bombay Halwa!Quote:
Lot of Pans seems to have sankrit names! So, I guess this book might have been composed after cultural exchanges between North and South musicians.
There is no reference to music or notes in the Sama Veda - the Vedics were against music, as you can see from the Manu Smriti - music was the occupation of 'outcasts'Quote:
When the sama veda was composed , probably only 3 notes were known to the composers then.
Sabapathy
Idiappam Sir
Thanks for the information on Pingalar.
By cultural exchange, I meant Sanskrit names were accepted into Tamil society and maybe the names were in Sanskrit because raga had a similar name in N.India.So, that raga was given to South and maybe some Tamil Pans might have been used in N.India too.
I did not know that Vedics were against music.Because most Hindu Gods like saraswathi(veena),Naradar(veena?),Krishna(flute) ,Shiva(damarum) were associated with music.Or it could be that these Gods & Godesses were Tamil Gods and vedics later adopted them? Even in Tamil literature, I have read that musicians were treated as a lower caste.Avvaiyar is usually described as a poetess from the caste of bards.I read this in an essay by Prof.George Hart.
Please continue your posting on thevaram,divya prabandham pans and also pan peyarthal etc.Also, please write about nadhaswaram which i guess is an old Tamil instrument.
Dear Mr. Idiappam,
Many Many Thanks for enlightening us ... with so much of Rich-Documental informations on our Great-Thamizh-Isai...
... especially for all the pains you have taken to ellicit and gather such highly valuable News
... which MUST REACH one and all the Tamilians and others too all over. the Globe.
Please continue.