Isawra kaapathapaQuote:
Originally Posted by Idiappam
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Isawra kaapathapaQuote:
Originally Posted by Idiappam
:lol:
Quote :
/// It was written to teach moral values, dharma,adharma and last but NOT least the scientific Philosophy of life! ///
You got my point. Dharma and Adharma - correct. Moral values / Philosophy go inside / within Dharma.
Eventually Dharma and Adharma can be taken.
But you left out important thing, Ayya, :o
That is KARMA (KARUMAM) -destined to this birth : which was effected by good / wrong doings of yester birth : which was the main core of any 'Inthu' epics / stories / propoganta.
Karma is the primermost in Inthu ideology. Onething here we observe is 'karma' is nothing to do with science. Your 'karma' may induce 'scientific inventions' through some persons who destined to find out science. For that they have to undergo lot of agitations(sothanaikal) :!: .
However can you explain now how these three Karma,Tharma and Atherma propogated in MAHABHARATA if not part by part, through stories ?
It will help readers.
f.s.gandhi
Yes sir, I have missed the Karma(activities) in which dharma & adharma is consisted within, I would bring out the character of Karna, the greatest warrior, his character is given more importance in eth story of Mahabhartha more than any one, with the excemption of lord Krishna, will discuss say by tomorrow, not enough time now, sorry :DQuote:
Originally Posted by F.S.Gandhi vandayar
>>>>>scientific Philosophy of life!|<<<<<<<<<<
A starving person would not look for a choice in food, he will try to fullfill his basic of hunger by eating food that will satisfy his hunger (artha). If resources are plenty he will exercise choice of enjoying the food (kaama). If he is sensible then he will think about the good and bad effects of the choice on health (dharma). The first is tamasic, the kaama aspectsis rajasic and the thinking ofthe choices is satvic.
These three aspects are called gunas through which everything in life operates. But these still does not make the mind satisfied. But there is an ultimate satisfaction and that is Moksha.
Artha, kaama, dharma and finally moksha is the path through which every individual goes through. This journey is what given through mahabharat.
All characters in mahabharat fall into this three modes of tamsic, rajasic and satvic and its combination. Very few transcend these three gunas and they go into moksha.
Since these aspects are not easy to understand through the lives of mahabharata characters we can understand these aspects and makesour own choices in life.
Sage vyasa says "it is dharma (satvic mode of thinking) that always helps you and when you do not dothat yu are in trouble. So why not follow dharma?. But no one listen to me".
what is karma?. When people live their lifes without knowing to set priorities and know the "value of values", then they suffer. So through mahabharata and Gita we are made to think and reflect thatin our own lives.
It is an irony thatinstead of doing a self relfection general public is busy condemning and praising the characters of the epic.
The essence of the epic is Gita, where in all the above is discused. Conflicting thoughts inlifeis prevalent in all minds. When we are in situationslike that of Arjuna, this knowledge of Gita helps us.
Is it right to fight a war killing one's own blood relatives?. This is such an obvious question that will come to any mind. Only when we encounter in real life we can understand the depth of that situation and understand how gita can shed light on that matter.
In our modern lives we may be in the sitation of Arjuna (not in battlefield|) but will be in a court room forexample, over a dispute of land. Most common in India. Then how do we act (karma). What is right and wrong.
Time immemorial, these two epics have guided us. People have misunderstood the messageand then can wrongly interpret and make a hell out of it, which is also seen In India. All requires a satvic thinking (holistic mode of thinking). This has to lived as life rather than reading as an epic. Then we understand the "scientific philosophy of life".
Thanks Pradheep.
When I read the Gita when I was a school kid,i understood some meaning.re-reading it now gives me new meaning and I guess as one grows reading the Gita will give better and deeper insights.
Dear viggop
you are right...we understand based on our mental maturity. The truth of Gita is understood at different depths and our outlook in life. Generally people do not think (analyze). they take it for granted. This is a tamasic quality...ignorance and dullness. One who enquires is satvic.
Arjuna transcends from the rajasic quality to satvic quality and was the basis for teaching Gita.
Dhritarastra is stubborn, ignorant because he does not think beyond his body , his mind, his comfort and his children. His son duryodhan is highly tamasic. Vidhur is satvic and a tamasic one will not listen to a satvic, unless the tamasic starts his own enquiry, within.
The attachment to our beleif's will shut down the enquiring process. This is why we have to transcend attachment..atleast till we see the reality (truth).
Dear Pradheep
yes, you are right, as long as we indulge in 'Maya' , we will be performing Dharma & Adharma, and our karma will decide our destiny, to attain mukthi one must give up all of this mundane attachment realise the paramathma is the ultimate and surrendr unto maha Iswar, and give up our lust, greed, ignorance, ego and al possible human feelings and have only Iswar (or Isa, as it is called in the Gita) then only we can attain mukthi,
else we would be in the infinite loop of life, birth, old age, disease and death, no way out!
Karma is like getting into a quick-sand....every step will pull you deeper into it. This is why karma is futile ,but when karma performed with knolwedge will help the mind to purify and through gnana alone will one get moksha. This is the message of Gita and mahabharata.
Hi Pradheep
Gnana marga is not the only way.Bhkathi marga is also useful in Kali yugam
Dear friendQuote:
Hi Pradheep
Gnana marga is not the only way.Bhkathi marga is also useful in Kali yugam
This is the confusion prevalent among many, that bakthi is different , and so is karma and gnana. If we are talking of the Gnana about the "Self", then that Gnana blossoms (?) when the actions (karma) are performed with an understanding, which also holds good for bhakthi. Bhakthi is not singing bhajans or prostrating on the ground before an idol. Without the right understanding, how can there be bhakthi?. So it gnana that comes out of karma and bhakthi. In that way even bhakthi is a karma only.
conclusion:. If karma (actions) is done with an attitude (bhakthi) then one becomes a gnani (onewith Gnana). So where is the question of different margas?
Dear Pradheep & ViggopQuote:
Originally Posted by viggop
I agree with Viggop, Pradheep One can realise the truth by gnana, for example, let's say we(u,me & Viggop) all realise the Paramatma, but this is NO way a gurantee for Mukthi/Moksham.
another MOST difficult thing is putting this into PRACTICE, this is when one becomes a real sanyasi, so realising the truth alone is NOT enough!
Only Bhakthi is the way to Moksha/Mukthi, this is told in the Gita by Lord Krsihna.
dear Pradheep & Viggop
Thanks a lot guys for re-directing the topic in the right direction.
:thumbsup:
Let us adopt anyway possible to reach Brahman/Shivam/God.
OK? :-)
Dear ViggopQuote:
Let us adopt anyway possible to reach Brahman/Shivam/God.
Please excuse me for making a statement, that there is no "anyway" but only one way of reaching "Brahman/Shivam/God". That one way is Gnana. Krishna makes it clear in Gita, the one who reahces me is one who "knows me". The one who does not know me, does not know himself either.
Karma is performed by everyone...but it does not reach to brahman unless if one understands what the purpose of the action, it wont help him. This is the problem with mimamsa people. People who do rituals to reach God would not reach if they do not understand what it is meant for. Bhakthi people if do not know what this bhakthi is taking them to ...they will not reahc Brahman. Krishna in Gita says clearly that people who does karma or bhakthi are of four types. Some pray god only when they are in trouble or sorry. The next group does when they want material benefits. Another one asks God for understanding him. Only the wise prayer is a means to thank the same self that is one and the same.
Conclusion: Without knowing what we are seeking , we will always be lost.
http://sakthifoundation.org/purify.htm
please read the real incident in the above link.
Dear raghu and friends
sorry i had to side track to understand mahabhrata more clear. Look at vidhur, who sticks on his dharma, because of his gnanam. Vidhur is thus a perfect bhaktha too and so krishna stays with him durign the visit. Krishna teaches arjuna to do karma to get gnanam. This ultimate understanding should dawn in us and that is the very purpose of Vyasa to give us mahabhratam and also give gita. it is considered that the garland is MB and Gita is the pendant.
Ok, Let's take another example , an example which is not talked much as this from Shribhavadam or Krishna Leelai, remeber Sudhaama a pure devotee of Lord Krishna, was his child hood friend, all sudhama knew was love of Lord Krishna and nothing else, was he not given moksham due to his bhakthi?Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
what do you mean by moksham that kuchela got....you mean the wealth he got after meeting his friend. krishna?
Dear PradheepQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
NO NO, Lord Krishna had child hood friend called Sudhama, perhaps some one could clarify on this?
Raghu
Sudhaama is kuchelar.Kuchela in sanskrit means "one who weares tattered/torn clothes".Sudhaama got this nickname from his school(gurukulam) friends because he was wearning torn clothes as his family was poor.
Dear Viggop
Thanks, correct kucela and sudhama are one and the same. So we have to understand what moksha, dharma, karma to understand mahabharat (viceversa true). So raghu , let us discuss what moksha means that we can get out of the confusion about these different margas.
Thanks Viggop, sorry I did not know that :oops:Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
Note to all Participants of this thread:
This thread has been brought up again after intensive clean-up of all digressions on a trial basis. Kindly stick to the topic of discussing the story aspects of the epic. Do not unnecessarily deviate into the religous merits and demerits. No personal attacks on any hubber either. Violations will result in locking this thread.
thanks sbadriQuote:
Originally Posted by sbadri99
Dear PradheepQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
In gita it is clearly(IN MY VIEWS, PLS ACCEPT MY APPLOGIES, IF I AM WRONG) that self realisation is something and moksha is another thing, but self realistaion leads one to enquire about the philosophy of life, which in turn leads one to enquire about Mukti.
In gita (i shall put the verses, tomorrow) it states that to attain mukti, one must understand he/she is not his/her body these are perishable only the atma which is parts and parcels of paramatma is eternal, this is self realisation, once this is realised, one must give his/her full attention to Paramatma known as Isa by bhakthi ONLY towards Isa(which later evolved around to be Maha Iswar/Eshwar), this is the only way atma(soul) is liberated with Isa the ultimate truth, supreme personality of God head, Maha Iswar.
what is your view, pradheep?
Dear Raghu
You are correct...but a little clarification needed when you say.......
bhakthi ONLY towards Isa(which later evolved around to be Maha Iswar/Eshwar.
what do you mean by Bhakthi, "later evolved" and Maha-Iswar (Shiva or Brahman?).
With this we will be back to MBH.
Dear PradheepQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
In Raja vedas and Git Isa is known as Maha Iswar or Maheshwar :D
Dear Raghu
You still have not made it clear whether you mean Shiva here or Brahman by the name Maheshwar.
Dear PradheepQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
I meant Shiva
hence the saying
'Guru Bhrama(your origin), Guru Vishnu(the period you are alive in this material world), Guru Devo Maheshwara(the end of Mundane life, Moksha is ONLY attained at this stage)
Dear RaghuQuote:
I meant Shiva
Do you mean Shiva (form) with a jada-mudi, snake on his neck or a formless Shivam?
Dear Pradheep,Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
illai sir, Shivam is suppose to formless, it 's just for us mundane ppl, Shivam has been narrated like jada-mudi, snake on his neck so that we can concentrate on an entity and meditate upon that, meditating on formless shivam is virtualy impossible, would you agree:D
Dear aghu
Thanks you made it clear. Now comming back to moksha......do you agree moksha means freedom, liberation.....If then what is bound? ...also is there a physical binding?. Is ama bound?
I think these discussion will lead us to understand everything clear.
dear pradheepQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Moksha alias Mukti , does mean libertaion with Paramatama or Iswar and freedom from these perishable bodies, the only bounding is that , Atma must free it self from maya(illusion), such as one must accept & understand that, the body in which the Atma resides, the cosmic world or loga it lives in and it's functions/aspects are all nothing but Maya, atma must understand it carries it's Karma(Results of it's activities) be it dharma or adharma along in the vicious cycle of birth, old age, diseases and death, but it is just changing from body to body, just like we change clothes, the body it takes depends on the atma's karma in it's previous life, and this vicious cycly continues in an infinte loop till the atma attains Mukti / Moksha, this is down by Self Realisation(one you have fully realised it, one would give up everything in this mundane life and just meditate on iswar, Rishis and Munivars are prime example of such life) and Bhakthi to Iswar
But as long as the Atma indulges it self in Tama (modes of Ignorance and passion for this cosmic world) one CAN NOT ATTAIN MUKTHI / MOKSHA
Am I right Pradheep? :D
Dear Raghu
Yes, you summarized it very well. But from what you wrote isnt it obvious that it is an understanding (Gnana) and meditation, bhakthi or yoga are all means to get that understanding. So it is understanding (Gnana) that brings forth Moksha. Am I right Raghu?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Dear Pradheep
Yes it is :D
Dear Raghu
Good since we are clear about the fundamental aspect, we can get back to MBH and see how we can reflect that in our lives. In Gita third chapter, krishna says strong likes and dislikes blocks the mind set to receive Gnana. Dont we see this in MBH main character Dhristarashtra?. What are your comments?
Dear PradheepQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Ok, take your Character, I would take up Karna and let's discuss :D
Dear Raghu
You are very knowledgeable in MBH and so we would go with Karna for our discussions.
what do you think about Artha, kama, Dharma and Moksha of karna?. Please share with us how his life goes through these four aspects of life?.
illa Sir katrathu kai alavu kalaathathu ulahalavu :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
sorry but what is Artha :? , and did you mean karma instead of kaama, as they are two different things? :?Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Dear Raghu
I hope you remember in onepostI discussed artha, kama , dharma and moksha.....all human intiailly pursue artha...the basic needs of food clothing and shelter and then they make a choicein that basedon their likes and dislikes (kama) and if hasan enquiry mind will perform actions of good, righteousness (dharma) and through that they transcend to moksha.
How do you think Karna's life goes this pattern?