Dear Pradheep
Karna's Character is the MOST complicated one MBH, I would try and get back to you tomorrow on this one, sorry very busy migrating SQL server databases to another Server, so once this cools down a bit, I will get back to you. :D
thanks
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Dear Pradheep
Karna's Character is the MOST complicated one MBH, I would try and get back to you tomorrow on this one, sorry very busy migrating SQL server databases to another Server, so once this cools down a bit, I will get back to you. :D
thanks
Dear Pradheep & others
in Gita it says
janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
Meaning:
One who knows the transcendental nature of Iswar's appearance does not upon leaving this body takes another birth but attains Iswar's eternal abode, o Arjuna
so does this mean Gnana alone takes one into Mukti??, but in another verse which I can recall now it says Bhakthi attained from gnana is the only way, could some one pls enlighten me thanks
There are two ways to understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raghu
1. If there are two ways then the whole gita is wrong.
2. If you get the gnana of contradiction then the gita is wrong.
Dear Pradheep
What are your views on the above verse from Gita?
thanks
Dear RaghuQuote:
One who knows the transcendental nature of Iswar's appearance does not upon leaving this body takes another birth but attains Iswar's eternal abode, o Arjuna
Very good verse you brought for discussion.
Life basically for everyone is to alters between two different worlds. We wake up from sleep in the morning and we do all action with the thought of reality and then when we sleep we get into the dream world and there also we do all actions thinking it as reality. So we basically alter between these two worlds. But the reality is different (discuss later). Conclusion: we wake from one world to another and keep alternating in it- this is samsara.
What I am trying to tell you is that, the last thought when you are going to sleep basically dictates the events (mostly) in the dream while asleep. While about falling asleep you will have thought of a robber and then the dream will be of events that leads to soem robberry. When you wake up you might remember some and not all. So it is the last thought at the time of exiting from this world to the dream world that matters.
Same way Krishna says in Gita that the thought at time of death, decides how you are born next. If you have the thought of being unhealthy , then next birth you will be health conscious. If you think you are not rich enough next birth you will struggle for it. If you think you did not have enough spiritual knowledge so be the next birth. So the last thought at time of death (entering into the next world) is the most important factor for the events in the next life.
Krishna says if you have thought of “Me” , which means if you identify yourself with me, you will be me in the next life and that is eternal. if you think of me then you are me (Ishvara) then you become me (ishava). If you have a thought of being a devotee then you will be a devotee of me next birth.
In the first case, when you think of me as one and the same at death time, you will not have any more births and death and no samsara cycle, because I am the one free from birth and death. So if you become me then there is death and life for you either.
But if you think you are a devotee, you are born as a devotee and being born as a devotee you still are in samsara. So Mukthi comes only when you think of me as yourself and not different from me (Tat Tvam Asi).
But how to remember ishvara at time of death? This is the whole purpose of spiritual practice…. you cannot remember ishava at death because you are so attached with the thought you are this body and so you will be born again with this body. You have so many attachments (possessions) that you will think only of that and not of IShvara.
So all the spiritual practice we do is only for the moment of death to get out of the samsara cycle. Death is the cross road of either getting liberated and the back door again to this samsara. To get to that moment is the proper understanding we need practice. Like in school, the end of the school day is exam. If you fail you have to repeat the same class.
Now we friends are not ashamed to fail repeatedly and be in same class because we are amidst our same friends, who are all failed. Suppose everyone graduated and we are the only one who failed and when we sit with new members we will feel ashamed. (This is why most of the people are not interested in Moksha...they keep failing and playing around here).
Okay, so the whole schooling is meant for the last day of graduation (exam). If I am student who is so obedient and spend my school days praising my teacher without studying , will I pass?. Of course my teacher is happy with my behavior but not at my studies. But what matters is only knowledge (studies). Schooling is for creating discipline to gain knowledge. Without discipline no knowledge can be got leave alone spiritual knowledge. In spiritual class, we discipline the mind to receive the knowledge of the Self. Bhakthi is devotion and bhakthi finally culminates in knowledge – Tat Tvam Asi. A devoted student finally understand he and his teacher are one not at the body level but at knowledge level. This is bhakthi.
So Gita is clear, no different path, only one. Knowledge of the self only liberates and nothing else. Rest is all the means to get this knowledge. Bakthi and all the stuff is to discipline the mind to receive the knowledge of Self (Ishvara).
We will continue with this discussion and once we are clear, remind me of Arjuna getting pasu-pathastra-----it symbolizes the weapon to cut the attachments. Death is so connected to this symbolism.
If this vicious cycle keeps repeating itself, when will everyone attain moksha? Without everyone attaining moksha, who will the world come to an end? Kalki avathar? So the result of all the sins commited by humans, the world just comes to an end through Kalki?
Excellent analogy!! :DQuote:
Like in school, the end of the school day is exam. If you fail you have to repeat the same class
when one understand the Self, this question vanishes, then there is no question of when will everyone attain moksha. Who is Kalki, the conquering mind is Kalki, the one with the arms and weapons to fight the Ego.Quote:
If this vicious cycle keeps repeating itself, Without everyone attaining moksha, who will the world come to an end? Kalki avathar? So the result of all the sins commited by humans, the world just comes to an end through Kalki?
When everyone is drowning, first we have to save ourselves first before we save others. If not we will drown ourselves with the other one whom we want to save. When we save ourself (attain Moksha) this question will cease to exist. That is the catch-20 in this situation.Quote:
when will everyone attain moksha?
Dear PradheepQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Yes in Gita it is Clearly Explained, your next body & life is decided upon ur desire at the time ur atma leaves this perishable body, this makes perfect sense.
but sorry to divert the topic slightly, u mentioned about dreams, yes to a certain extent, u would dream about thinks which are in ur subconsiousness but some time u dream about things which you never ever thought about, how would you explain this?, do u think these thoughts could have been bought along with ur atma from ur previous life??
Dear RaghuQuote:
think these thoughts could have been bought along with ur atma from ur previous life??
In dream state there is no sense of the "I" (body), but the mind that is active still clings on the thoughts it has generated and weaves further thoughts - dreams. Like in awaken state how the mind can bring about thoughts totally unrelated, in the dream state also mind can generate that.
When there is only one Atma, where is the question of ur atma and my atma that brings thoughts from previous life?
Dear Pradheep,Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Atma transmigrate from body to body till it attains mukti. in the process of transmigrating it carries it karma with it, correct, now thoughts are part of the karma right?, so logicaly it would sense, that thoughts which comes in ur dream which are not related to the karma of your current body, are thoughts carried forward from ur last life?, correct?
Tat Tvam Asi =??
Tat =??
Tvam =??
Asi = ??
Should it not be Tvam Tat Asi?? Just curious!
Dear Mr "Idiappam"
// Tat Tvam Asi =??
Tat =??
Tvam =??
Asi = ??
Should it not be Tvam Tat Asi?? Just curious! //
The Overall-meaning will not change, nor become different... even if the order of the words are changed.
Raghu wrote:
.Quote:
Atma transmigrate from body to body till it attains mukti. in the process of transmigrating it carries it karma with it, correct, now thoughts are part of the karma right?, so logicaly it would sense, that thoughts which comes in ur dream which are not related to the karma of your current body, are thoughts carried forward from ur last life?, correct?
This is just a belief, is it not? (I a not questioning the value of this belief). There are others who do not have this believe, or believe completely different things. Is belief equal to truth, even if a million people say so? (I am aware that this question can be asked to the adherents of other beliefs too..).
.
Merely believing that belief is truth, or the only truth, is harmless as long as we approve of the the right of the others to believe similarly. Harmony is possible withe many such abosolutist beliefs going around. Only violence through which some want to enforce his/her belief as truth will destroy the harmony. This is applicable to all believers who believe i mysticism, mystic phenomena, or versions of religious truth.
Raghu wrote:
.Quote:
Atma transmigrate from body to body till it attains mukti. in the process of transmigrating it carries it karma with it, correct, now thoughts are part of the karma right?, so logicaly it would sense, that thoughts which comes in ur dream which are not related to the karma of your current body, are thoughts carried forward from ur last life?, correct?
This is just a belief, is it not? (I a not questioning the value of this belief). There are others who do not have this belief, or believe completely different things. Is belief equal to truth, even if a million people say so? (I am aware that this question can be asked to the adherents of other beliefs too..).
.
Merely believing that belief is truth, or the only truth, is harmless as long as we approve of the the right of the others to believe similarly. Harmony is possible with many such absolutist beliefs going around. Only violence through which some want to enforce his/her belief as truth will destroy the harmony. This is applicable to all believers who believe in mysticism, mystic phenomena, or versions of religious truth.
Dear pradheep,Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
No I don't believe in one Atma, there is Paramatma, which contains many billions of atma's, is this not explained in Gita???
pls enlighten me, if I am wrong, thanks
Dear RaghuQuote:
No I don't believe in one Atma, there is Paramatma, which contains many billions of atma's, is this not explained in Gita???
where in Gita is there about many atma's. There are many bodies (forms), but one Atma. Atma (consciousness) is in manifested and unmanifested state. What we see through brain is the manifested |(awareness) and there is the unmanifested aspect. Manifestation is in many forms. The illusion (maya) is that there are many atma's but there is only that one Param-atma. This is the meanignof the song in thirumandiram-marathai maraithathu maa-matha-yanai...and same is the meaning of ponnai maraithathu ponannai poodanam...
If you say Atma are many, then atma becomes an object.......Atma is not an object. Sorry your belief is questionable and we can discuss. If this maya is cleared then you get the self knowledge. But you will know only when there is an end to ego-awareness. So Raghu understand the Maya get out of it.
[/quote]
Dear idiappam,Quote:
Should it not be Tvam Tat Asi?? Just curious!
read thirumandiram 2288 - pinnai ariyum .....
which says only when the ego-awareness ends the self is known. So tat is important and not tvam. There is no maya about the Tvam |(ego|) but on Tat and asi. So Tat is given the priority. Wealready have the "I" notion. All the scriptures talk about renouncing this "I" , then when that is acheived how can again the "I| be talked first?. Can you understand this?.
Pradeep,
Thanks for the responce.
About the Atma being dual etc.
Aren't there differnet beliefs about that in Hinduism itself?
Duaitham, and advaitham? :D
Duaitham, and advaitham?
Yes. There are. It is based on how the truth is explained. But even in duaitham, the truth is only advaitha.
Nonsense! HOw do you know??? Did you go there and see??Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Mr. Pradeep, :) explain this Advaitham,Duvaitham and Vishshtathvaitham through Paramathma & Geevathma cocept. Then You will come to know the difference.
f.s.gandhi
Dear Pradeep
Keep this Advaitham,Dvaitham discussion to a separate thread.No need to discuss them in Mahabharatha thread.Discuss only about the epic here.Thanks for your understanding.
I heard a new story from my friend about Shakuni.
Can someone confirm whether it is true.
It seems that Dhridarashtra jailed shakuni and all his brothers because he was unhappy that gandari married a blind man.All of them were given a grain of rice to live.All the brothers decided that they'll make shakuni live and sacrificed their lives by giving their grain of rice to shakuni.Shakuni was hence filled with feeling of vengefulness.He vowed that he'll destroy the kaurava race. he then made the dice from his father's bones.Then, he did everything to corrupt duryodhana's mind so that a war with pandavas became inevitable.He knew that pandavas will ultimately win the war but he wanted to destroy the kauravas as revenge for his father and brother's death.
Is this story true? It is present in the mahabharatha?
The 'he' here refers to Sakuni, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
so that was the reason behind Shakuni's mind, to defeat the Kuravas, he tacticaly inflicted a war , knowing the entire Kurava clan would be demolished :shock:
A.R.
'He' refers to shakuni. any idea whether this version is authentic?
ViggopQuote:
Originally Posted by viggop
never heard of it!
same here, viggop.
Yes, I have actually heard this story a long long time ago! The story goes that he uses the dice made from the bones of his father's thigh bone, which were supposed to obey him.
A drama in Bengali was written by Monoranjan Bhattacharya called Chakravyuha, which talks about this story of Shakuni being imprisoned and seeking revenge against the Kaurava clan.
I am not sure of any supporting evidence in Mahabharatha to validate this story. It could well be a fictional offshoot of the orignal story
Dear Iddiappam, Gnadhi and viggop,
Yes, I will Keep this Advaitham,Dvaitham discussion to a separate thread. see you there in the new thread Advaitam - the final understanding
Dear Mr. "pradheep"
// Dear Iddiappam, Gnadhi and viggop,... Yes, I will Keep this Advaitham,Dvaitham discussion to a separate thread. see you there in the new thread Advaitam -..... "the final understanding".... //
Oh! I see... ADWAITHAM - THE FINAL-UNDERSTANDING ???
... Welcome... I, the UNINVITED GUEST will also participate there...
... so as to counter your ONE-SIDED argument .... which I am observing patiently so far.
Please ensure the active participation of more Hubbers well-knowledged ... like Mr. badri99... Mr. Thiru... Mr. Aravindhan and so on.
Their participation will NULLIFY anybody's mischievous postings ... Violating the Hub- Regulations.
Let us discuss that high aspect of Human-Emancipation... in a HEALTHY APPROACH...
... without any Ill-will or Fanaticism Nor Hatred towards any Faith or Group of People or even any Individuals,
.. true to the Spirit of such an Applied Wisdom-application..
... worthy for the Most advanced Creature on Earth.... so called HUMANITY.
Dear friends and sudhama
I was not allowed to start a new topic so I continue with an old post. Please check the thread "Significance of the Masi Maham - Siva & Sakthi Valipadu... so see you there in that thread.
so as to counter your ONE-SIDED argument .... which I am observing patiently so far.
Arguements (sam-vaada) is always healthy.
Hi Viggop, as you requested:
The Mahabharata (m) is a wonderful work of religious literature that teaches us valuable lessons in moral justice and human duty. It is a work that shall remain timeless forever.
While there may be no debate on the nature of its contents, the Mahabharata (m) is perhaps controversial due to the nature of its origin. While some claim that it based on hard facts, some others claim that it is based purely on fiction. The fact that the Mahabharata (m) is essentially a piece of religious literate does not help either side.
This is because religion is essentially about belief – one may choose to believe or not to believe. And until the concept of God has been comprehensively studied and explained, each person will be justified in holding his/her religious beliefs.
Having said that religious literature is unhelpful to prove beyond debate the nature of its own origins, one is left with three options to analyze the said origins: geology, archaelogy and non-religious literature studies. The first two are fairly obvious and speak for themselves.
The third, non-religious literature, is acceptable as a historical account of ancient events simply because it is removed from the realm of belief and is based firmly on factual events that happened prior to or during the narrator’s lifetime. Further, such literature attributes itself to human origins driven by rational human behavior.
Personally, for sometime now, I have been interested in knowing whether the Mahabharata (m) is actually a work of fact, fantasy or a combination of both. I came across this poem in the Purananooru, a literary product of the third Tamil Sangam, in the library archives of the Tamil Virtual University (www.tamilvu.org) The Purananooru, being non-religious in nature, qualifies to be considered as an historical account. The qualifications of Tamil literature in general are strengthened by the fact that its claims have always been verified by geological, marine and archaeological studies wherever they have been conducted.
I present here the poem, along with a (attempted!) translation, and wish to draw your attention to a few references that seem interesting. Please correct me if there are mistakes in the translation.
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Purananooru - 2
Like Land, fertile in its content
Sky that lies high above the Land
Wind that brushes the Sky
Fire that is fed by the Wind
And Water that is opposite to the Fire 5
You possess the qualities of the five elements
Patience to forgive the mistakes of your foes, if they cross the line the Expanse,
Power and Fury to crush them and Benevolence to grace him if he relents
Your greatness has grown to such extent
Your noble head is held in such esteem that even the ocean will sink 10
In your land which houses so many cities, Oh ruler of this prosperous nation!
The sky is the limit of your fame
The Five men, sitting on horses with shaking heads, whose
Land was taken by those with the thumbai flower -
The Hundred men, when both were exhausted at the battlefield 15
You gave them sumptuous food without any limit!
Milk, which turned sour and day which turned night
In contrast to the principles of the four Vedas
Without change (of loyalty) with your trusted people, remain powerful all your life
May you live long, without (military) tremor, piling on your success! 20
Like wide-eyed deer, and its children,
Of the saints of past who did their duty,
Sleep in the protection of the three-headed lamp
So shall we live in the protection given by You, like the Himalayas and Podhiyam hills
Sung by Mudinagarayar of Muranjiyur, in praise of Cheran Udayan Cheraladhan who provided sumptuous food
Points of interest:
1. There was a war between a group of five people and a group of 100 people
2. This war was caused because the 100 people took away land which rightfully belonged to the five people
3. The magnitude of this war was such that it lasted several days and it flouted the principles of the four Vedas
4. Cheran Udayan Cheraladhan sumptuously fed both the warring armies
5. This war occurred sometime during the period of the third Tamil Sangam (approx 18th to 2nd centuries BCE)
6. The existence of the four Vedas was known to the Tamil people
7. The Podhiyam hills (past/present not specified) were comparable in extent and proportions to the Himalayas.
Fantastic post Ramraghav, More realistic approach...
After reading so many mythical posts, I felt your post as really refreshing one.
Keep it up.
:clap:
Dear RamRaghav
Excellent Posts, but I was unable to read the Thamizh script, any ideas as to where I can down load thamizh fonts to read them??
thanks a lot!
Dear Raghu, why don't you use ekalappai? It can be used for reading and writing in Tamil, and is pretty simple to use. pm me with your email id, so I can send it over.
mahabaratha is a mere clash between two tribes at war with each other. krishna is a mere mortal as rama.
Yes! j.chenkalvarayan, Yes!
Chenkalvarayan
Krishna is never a mortal right from his birth.He is always a mayavi and even when he was a kid he'll destroy rakshashas and rakshashis.Rama avataram was of course a mortal