Islamic Invasions ! Hindus Persecutions !

Kannan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Ayodhya

That link says that there were Carvings of Vishnu on some of the pillars.

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There! Do you mean to say, they have to live as second class citizens, submitting to the whims and fancies of Hindutvadis, who come up with a new mosque for destruction everyday? How can you expect them to feel safe in such an environment? Is this not religious extremism?

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All I'm saying is, that if they really wanted to live in peace, then they wouldn't have a prob giving up a mosque that was abandoned religiously. Like I said, n Islamic Culture itself it is said that if a Mosque isn't wordhipped in for more than 7 months then it looses it's sanctity. They could have been more understanding to the sentiments of Hindus.

I see myself as a Hindutvadi also, and I know that if there was a Ram Temple which was abandoned which had little significance to cultural or religious aspects of Hinduism, and for whatever reason, that land had importance to Islam @ the same magnitude as Ayodhya to hinduism, I wouldn't mind givign that land up for a mosque.

when i said "Any mosque taht was built on a site with a previos hindu temple. etc etc" that's a different scenerio. In the case that i mention in this post, I wouldn't mind too much, giving that land up.

But that's not how they thought. The way I see it. That part of Ayodhya is too important for us to let go. It would be great if the muslims were more understanding to hindu sentiments. Unfortunatly tthat's not how things went.

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What use are his ideologies when he doesn't even qualify as a patriot?

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Just because he wrote an apology doesn't mean that he isn't a patriot. He took part in the independence didn't he? But there's no point in debating Savarkar. Because that will just make the Debate go into a million other things in Indian History....I'll refrain from it.

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Originally Posted by Surya

*Sanskrit Mantras Must Not Be Used In Hindu Temples!!!! This Is Tamil Nadu, And People Should Only Use Tamil Mantras, Regardless Of What Importance Sanskrit Has In The Religion!!! ARRRGH!!!!

I wonder where Mr. KK got the Idea that the Islamic Prayer things that flow out of the Loudspeaker are Tamil... Why not tell muslims that Only Tamil Islamic Religious Songs should be used in Tamil Nadu? This is an example of Psuedo Secularism....Which basically means A rule for the Majourity, and another Rule for the minorty (Favoring It).

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h

Hmm, this is a point worth thinking deeply over!!!!

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Originally Posted by Surya

*Sanskrit Mantras Must Not Be Used In Hindu Temples!!!! This Is Tamil Nadu, And People Should Only Use Tamil Mantras, Regardless Of What Importance Sanskrit Has In The Religion!!! ARRRGH!!!!

I wonder where Mr. KK got the Idea that the Islamic Prayer things that flow out of the Loudspeaker are Tamil... Why not tell muslims that Only Tamil Islamic Religious Songs should be used in Tamil Nadu? This is an example of Psuedo Secularism....Which basically means A rule for the Majourity, and another Rule for the minorty (Favoring It).

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May be the Tamil Hindus want to understand what is being said of them to God. They perhaps believed the rumour that priests called the Tsunami by reciting some sanskrit mantras following someone's arrest. They simply may not want another Tsunami and perhaps. It may be like, "hey, what are you telling God about us this time ?", you know.

Also why can't you see it this way. Many locals can benefit from employment as priests in temples if it was OK to recite Tamil scriptures isn't it ?

So what is wrong there ? Is it not a policy favoring the Tamils ? You are a Tamil aren't you ? So what is your complaint ?

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Originally Posted by Surya

But that's not how they thought. The way I see it. That part of Ayodhya is too important for us to let go. It would be great if the muslims were more understanding to hindu sentiments. Unfortunatly tthat's not how things went.

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All your grievances understood Surya. But why did you not fight it through the courts and set a good example ? It is not OK to insult the judiciary system of the majorities Surya. You see you have set a bad precedent now which the terrorists are taking advantage of. If you break the law then they can too and that is what is happening. All because of the ruthless thoughtless actions of the Hindutvas.

Surya, I have a great idea to support your Ayodhya crusade, if only all of us could solve a small riddle.
We all know how great the olden minds were. They had symbloically hidden so much of truth in stories and puranas.

So, what if we locate the monkeys of Ramayan to stand witness to the the golden years of Ram rajya. Sure they were very brave, truthful, intelligent and human like with established kingdoms. Tell us Surya, who they are and we will get them for you.

Pizzalot: Advise you to desist from such sarcastic and insulting comments. Prove your points using sensible arguments. Do not resort to such unworthy tactics.

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

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Originally Posted by dsath

Can some one please explain me what pseudo secularism means?

[/tscii]

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YOU WANT AN EXAMPLE ?

WHAT CONGRESS HAD BEEN DOING ALL THESE YEARS IS PSEUDO SECULARISM

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Dictionary meaning of secularism:

1)Religious skepticism or indifference.
2)The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

Is that what BJP's eu-secularism stands for ? so what are they doing camping around Ayodhya campus ?

Abt the Temple problem, if one claims that since the Mosque was not used for praying and lost its sanctity, then how do you explain building a temple that was not there was 100s of years.
Even if there had been a Temple, should we civilized people retort to the same tactics of some barbarians 1000 yrs back. Whatever happened to humanity and tolerance?
I can't comprehend the Temple logic at all. Its pure RSS style public stunt. After the incident even people who didn’t know such organizations existed knew abt it.Whenever the BJP feels they are loosing ground, they bring up the Temple issue and have all the media attention they want.
The number of inter-community problems increased after the demolition.
Surya u mentioned abt the Kovai bomb blasts. I was born and brought up there and no one in their wildest dreams thought that such a situation would befall their beloved city. Had the mosque not been demolished and Advani kept his distance from our soil, then CBE would have been a glorious city now. Its a shadow of what it used to be. Personally i can never forgive the saffron brigade for what they did to my hometown.
This sentiment is widely shared by many people and thats the reason the saffron brigade will never stand a chance in TN.
Sadly the damage done will take a long time to rectify.

On any given day if i have to choose between peace/development of my hometown and a temple somewhere up North which i am never likely to visit, i will choose my hometown. I think any sane individual would.

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Originally Posted by Surya

Kannan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Ayodhya

That link says that there were Carvings of Vishnu on some of the pillars.

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1. Wiki doesn't provide any credible references to substantiate the info on pillars.
2. The findings themselves have been mired in controvery and even the courts have stayed the use of any archeological evidence in arguments.
3. There were no pillars found on the site. Only what look like pillar bases. Even on this point archeologists differ.
4. See here for an alternate view on the so called evidence:
http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-habib110703.htm
5. More importantly, there are many other places in Ayodhya, where Ram is believed to have been born. Why go after this particular site.

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Originally Posted by Surya

All I'm saying is, that if they really wanted to live in peace, then they wouldn't have a prob giving up a mosque that was abandoned religiously. Like I said, n Islamic Culture itself it is said that if a Mosque isn't wordhipped in for more than 7 months then it looses it's sanctity. They could have been more understanding to the sentiments of Hindus.

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The mosque was rendered unusable due to an original government order barring worship in the place. How can you claim then that they stopped worshipping of their own volition? Effectively, the muslims are barred from worshipping in the place and then they are told that since they haven't worshipped there for 7 months, the mosque can demolished. I don't see any logic in this.

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Originally Posted by Surya

I see myself as a Hindutvadi also, and I know that if there was a Ram Temple which was abandoned which had little significance to cultural or religious aspects of Hinduism, and for whatever reason, that land had importance to Islam @ the same magnitude as Ayodhya to hinduism, I wouldn't mind givign that land up for a mosque.

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Are you sure the saffron brigade would do the same? No, they wouldn't. And anyway, the people of Ayodhya themselves don't want this controversy to continue and accuse the outside forces of precipitating the situation. Like dsath said, only a person whose town is demolished would understand the pain. Not others who don't give a hoot to whether the town stood there or not.

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Originally Posted by Surya

But that's not how they thought. The way I see it. That part of Ayodhya is too important for us to let go. It would be great if the muslims were more understanding to hindu sentiments. Unfortunatly tthat's not how things went.

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You don't see the point. This case would be taken as a precedent and new mosques would continue to apprear on the radar for demolition. Even VHP has said that they wouldn't stop with this demolition. And it's not just about the mosque or the temple. It's about whether they can lead a life of equals in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Surya

Just because he wrote an apology doesn't mean that he isn't a patriot. He took part in the independence didn't he? But there's no point in debating Savarkar. Because that will just make the Debate go into a million other things in Indian History....I'll refrain from it.

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Yes, but not before I quote a part of his letter:
"Moreover, my conversion to the constitutional line would bring back all those misled young men in India and abroad who were once looking up to me as their guide. I am ready to serve the government in any capacity they like, for as my conversion is conscientious so I hope my future conduct would be." Contrast this with Bhagat Singh, who refused to plead for clemency. I can go on about him, but let's stop here.

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Originally Posted by kannannn

Yes, but not before I quote a part of his letter:
"Moreover, my conversion to the constitutional line would bring back all those misled young men in India and abroad who were once looking up to me as their guide. I am ready to serve the government in any capacity they like, for as my conversion is conscientious so I hope my future conduct would be." Contrast this with Bhagat Singh, who refused to plead for clemency. I can go on about him, but let's stop here.

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Now this is interesting, Kannann could you please direct me to a link where i can read the whole letter please?

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Originally Posted by kannannn

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Originally Posted by Surya

Kannan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Ayodhya

That link says that there were Carvings of Vishnu on some of the pillars.

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1. Wiki doesn't provide any credible references to substantiate the info on pillars.
2. The findings themselves have been mired in controvery and even the courts have stayed the use of any archeological evidence in arguments.
3. There were no pillars found on the site. Only what look like pillar bases. Even on this point archeologists differ.
4. See here for an alternate view on the so called evidence:
http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-habib110703.htm
5. More importantly, there are many other places in Ayodhya, where Ram is believed to have been born. Why go after this particular site.

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The archeological discoveries that VHP makes are endless. The discovery of horse bones in Harappa also tells a similar story.
They employ distortion techniques to write their own history, the history they want instead of the history that was. The numbers of people distorting our history to fulfill their own selfish needs are increasing by the day. I wouldn't mind if they publish such things in their own journals, but changing history books in schools is a bit too much even by their standards.
As a result no one is able to review our history impartially. Most of our accepted theory is very Euro-Centric and the new ones are saffron-centric (which results in threads like this). Give us a break. Can’t we explore history for the sake of it and know what really happened and for Heaven’s sake accept it and move on, instead of being stuck in a muddy pool. Bring on the geneticists and archeologists who have a passion for the subject and not for politics and revenge.

dsath, here is the link:
http://pd.cpim.org/2002/june02/06022...rkar_story.htm
It is from the website of CPI, but what does it matter as long as it is true!

Another one from Frontline (doesn't produce the full letter, but gives many interesting points):
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl21...5001808300.htm

and yet another one on the rejection of the mercy petition. This sure is interesting:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl22...8001903700.htm

Thanks Kannann.

Regarding critics abt Hinduism, i came across this article. Strangely its written by an American educated Pakistani and these are his observations on a single historical figure. But some of his general observations of the Hindu society in general are interesting.
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cg...end=319&page=1
In a sense the saffron brigade wants revival while the rest of the society wants reform.

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Originally Posted by kannannn

dsath, here is the link:
http://pd.cpim.org/2002/june02/06022...rkar_story.htm
It is from the website of CPI, but what does it matter as long as it is true!

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<diggr>
Wow People's democracy in the net. Its ages since i read one. Thanks again for directing me to the link Kannann. :)
</diggr>

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Originally Posted by dsath

Regarding critics abt Hinduism, i came across this article. Strangely its written by an American educated Pakistani and these are his observations on a single historical figure. But some of his general observations of the Hindu society in general are interesting.
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cg...end=319&page=1
In a sense the saffron brigade wants revival while the rest of the society wants reform.

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Interesting article dsath. Just left me wondering. What is it about Maharashtra that so many freedom fighters and reformists have emerged over the years from this state?

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Originally Posted by Surya

Rohit,
Welcome back..Long time. :)

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Thanks Surya. Yes, it is long. :wink:

Who are the Hindus?

Advaita, Qualified Advaita and Dvaita are the three central doctrines of Hinduism that are mutually incompatible with one another as the names themselves clearly indicate. However, there is one element that is common in all three doctrines and that is, they all categorically reject the creation of the universe and life from the outset and use the concept of absolute monism, qualified monism and dualism as their respective bases for their respective doctrines.

Advaita, for the very nature of its adopted base of the absolute monism, cannot accommodate the doctrines of karma and reincarnation. If it ever did, it would instantly collapse and falsify itself, for karma involves action while reincarnation requires one to be born and reborn; both of which absolute monism must be devoid of, if it has to remain valid within its doctrinal boundary. Now when karma, which involves action, and reincarnation, which requires birth and rebirth are both incompatible with the Advaita doctrine, the question of genocide not only becomes devoid of any context but it also becomes absolutely non-existent for anyone who truly holds Advaita as a valid doctrine.

Though, the doctrines of Qualified Advaita and Dvaita are perfectly compatible with the tenets of karma and reincarnation, any genocide of the believers of Qualified Advaita or Dvaita is, by default, attributable to their past karma; and therefore their genocide becomes an absolute non-issue. Tolerance is the only option available to the surviving rest in order to exhaust their karmic account until it becomes completely empty of all the bad karma.

The only possible way to recognise the genocide of the victims is to treat them as human beings, as either created beings, but they must belong to a Non-Hindu religion that prescribes a perfect Creator God; or else, treat them as naturally evolved human beings. In either case, the case of genocide of Hindus becomes absolutely baseless and is not contestable on the religious ground.

On the other hand, secular human beings with limited tolerance to provocation have the rights to defend their identity and self-respect depending on the situation and provocation encountered.

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Originally Posted by Badri

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Originally Posted by Surya

*Sanskrit Mantras Must Not Be Used In Hindu Temples!!!! This Is Tamil Nadu, And People Should Only Use Tamil Mantras, Regardless Of What Importance Sanskrit Has In The Religion!!! ARRRGH!!!!

I wonder where Mr. KK got the Idea that the Islamic Prayer things that flow out of the Loudspeaker are Tamil... Why not tell muslims that Only Tamil Islamic Religious Songs should be used in Tamil Nadu? This is an example of Psuedo Secularism....Which basically means A rule for the Majourity, and another Rule for the minorty (Favoring It).

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Hmm, this is a point worth thinking deeply over!!!!

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Yes Indeedy!! :mrgreen: :P

Dsath & Kannan, :)

I see that it isn't giong anywhere about Hindutva and the Ram Temple Movement. There is no point in trying to justify the acts of hindutva forces, because it's a completly different type of ideology, to what secular people are used to. What we see are just blunt facts, which have repeted in history.

No matter how you try crucify Hindutva, the fact still remains...

U take the number of Hindus murdered by Muslims all over the world, and the number of Muslims murdered by Hindus all over the world, the death of Hindus easily Outnumber the Muslims. Starting with the Mogul Invasions to the murder of Innocent Hindus last month. Thus this thread.

I feel that Hindutva doesn't have to be justified to anyone. It's a feeling that rises in the minds of many hindus, it also depends on the enviorment one is brought up in. Rather than trying to Justify it, I'm going to embrace it and move on. (i will TRY not to justify it. ) :P

Reg Hindutva in Tamil Nadu:

I do not agree that Hindutva will not have a strong foothold in TN. When I was in India this march, I saw a significant increase in the number of youngsters who attend the Everyday RSS Shakas, as ooposed to the number of youngsters who attened when I went there in 2004. And this is in Chennai. Other Areas like Vandhavasi, Nagarkoil, even Kovai (Dsath, I don't know what yuo mean about the ppl of Kovai not forgiving Hindutva, after the Kovai Blasts, the number of RSS supporters in Kovai has increased Significantly in many areas.) have an increase in their number. Other southern states, like Andra and Karnataka also have an increase in the number of people who attend their shakas. Norther Support for Hindutva doesn't need to be explained. 8-) I'm not going to argue on this, u can believe it if you'd like, or discard it, it doesn't really matter.

A couple things about The Thread:

*Even if look @ hindutva forces as Fanatics, (I don't) why is it that Hindu Fanatics are getting a tougher treatement and getting curcified, more than Islamic Fanatics? This thread is about Hindu Persecution, and somehow it's the hindu that get blamed for everything. This is what annoys me to the core.

*I don't see why this thread is a result of Saffronizing history. Are you denying the fact that Religious Persecution against hindus NEVER Happened?


If changing the title of the thread to "Islamic Aggression, which resulted in Hindu Persecution." will make this thread discuss what it was meant to discuss, then so be it..I hope Eelavar changes the title to that. :)

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Originally Posted by Surya

Are you denying the fact that Religious Persecution against hindus NEVER Happened?

If changing the title of the thread to "Islamic Aggression, which resulted in Hindu Persecution." will make this thread discuss what it was meant to discuss, then so be it..I hope Eelavar changes the title to that. :)

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Surya, please define precisely what do you mean by Hindus. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Rohit

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Originally Posted by Surya

Are you denying the fact that Religious Persecution against hindus NEVER Happened?

If changing the title of the thread to "Islamic Aggression, which resulted in Hindu Persecution." will make this thread discuss what it was meant to discuss, then so be it..I hope Eelavar changes the title to that. :)

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Surya, please define precisely what do you mean by Hindus. :thumbsup:

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Rohit, :)

In this case: The same definition the Govt uses when taking it's statistics.

People who call and called themselves as Hindus (U know what I mean by calling themselves as hindus, I know the term hindu is new and all, but u get the idea.) and those who worshipped gods who are defined today as Hindu Gods, like Shiva, Ram, Krishna, Muruga, Sudalai Maadan, Karuppu Sami etc.

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Originally Posted by Surya

Rohit, :)
In this case: The same definition the Govt uses when taking it's statistics.

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From where the Indian Government gets its definition, what is the original source of the definition? Is there any definition of Hindus in the Indian constitution? :D

Hmmm..Not sure. :oops: Why does it matter to the discussion, if we're going to use that definition for the discussion? :)

Eelavar,
PURRRFECT!! :thumbsup: :D

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Originally Posted by Surya

*Even if look @ hindutva forces as Fanatics, (I don't) why is it that Hindu Fanatics are getting a tougher treatement and getting curcified, more than Islamic Fanatics? This thread is about Hindu Persecution, and somehow it's the hindu that get blamed for everything. This is what annoys me to the core.

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Is it very hard to understand ?

They murdered the Father Of The Nation and still justify publicly. If not for The Mahatma there is no "India" as we know today man ! How can you expect India to be lenient on people who have a murderous history. In fact it is time for a genocide of the fanatics. Simple Government bans seem to be very in-effective. Sure anyone can be patriotic and take weapons and parade. But that is when the government is unable to protect the people. What case have you got to let them parade with weapons against 10%population scattered in small pockets who are economically and socially weaker ? Does it make any sense ?

If you are talking about Islamic terrorists, it is a different story. Any one who terrorizes should be treated with the same law. Behind closed doors, some people can worship them as martyrs of freedom fighters and so on. But the Hindutvadis do not even qualify for becoming heroes because 10% of people do not form the government. What are they against ? THERE IS NO REASON FOR YOUR MOVEMENT AND AS SUCH IT WILL DIE. Any success that you desire should depend on the people's ignorance and nothing more. They have to create new issues every day or else the movement is dead. With increase in eduction and awareness among people, your movement will die. There can be even a genocidal action against them by the people.

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Originally Posted by Rohit

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Originally Posted by Surya

Rohit, :)
In this case: The same definition the Govt uses when taking it's statistics.

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From where the Indian Government gets its definition, what is the original source of the definition? Is there any definition of Hindus in the Indian constitution? :D

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This thread is "Hindu Genocide" created by the Hindutvas. So let them define Hindus for us. Let them be very specific. Let them tell us who those people are who were killed in the genocide.

Krishna killed Shiva many times and Shivaites still want their revenge against Krishna and his followers.

Shiva humiliated and enslaved Dhaksha and Dhaksha's supporters want their share of revenge. Descendants of Sukhriva want their share of revenge against those who depicted them as monkeys.

Descendants of Ravana want their share of revenge against Ram who could have been only a petty king not significant enough to be recorded in the history. Ravana is described as a great king and his country is described as well forted, his people are well civilized and cultured and there was no Ram or Sita in their story. In every way their description seems to be very realistic. Mr. Ram's nation is described as no bigger than a village and yet it is the whole world for those who wrote about him. They claim an encounter with Ravana and killing him btw. Should the relatives of Ravana not take their revenge against those who wrote and worship this village-boy ? They belive these people have been force converted into Ram worship at the end of the sword.

Then there are Dhuryodhan worshipers , like me, who want to take their revenge on Krishna and his followers. In everyway Dhuryodhan is our hero. He was a great adminstrator and never fell short of being a good ruler. He had the best brains of those days to advice him. People had no grievances and were very happy. He had demonstrated excellent overseas relationships with other states like Orissa, Andhra and Karnataka. Bhishma himself who was the rightful heir to the throne was with him. He did not let the Pandavas rule because they were very intolerant to "inferior" humans like chariot drivers. They lived a luxurious life in Indraprasta while their people lived in forests. And this man Krishna supports these Pandavas. His people rewrite history, copy the Buddhist scriptures and re-tell it in bogus Mahabharat versions as Krisha's own Gita. I would myself like a genocidal action on them as they still continue their old habit of re-writing the history.

Now there are people like Rohit who say the central theme of Hinduism is Karma which blames people's status in this world for their sins. A low caste man is born so because of his sins in the previous birth and so their condition is very much justifiable. The in-laws blame the widow's sins in her previous birth for taking the life of the husband and her birth as a woman itself is a reult of her Karmic sins in her previous births she deserveds to be burnt and owned and all the BS ! The women, sudras and the animals want to take their revenge on those who insulted them.

IF YOU CALL ALL OF US AS HINDUS, WE FEEL THAT YOU ARE FORCE CONVERTING US INTO SOME UNKNOWN RELIGION.

Hey Guys,
You all forget one thing when talking about minorities...There are many hindu minorities throughout the world including Arab countries. So when you go allout against minorities in India, please remember your own countrymen are living in another country as minorities. So tolerance should be the word and not intolerance.

Our leaders know this... that's why they try to protect the minorities. It may sound a little selfish...

This title is even more provocative ! :oops:
Wondering how MODS have spared this one ! :(

Arul, :)
No one here is all out against minorities to begin with. :)

Selva,

What is provocative? Weren't Hindus Being Persecuted for their religion a result of the Islamic/Mogul Invasions in India? :huh:

Since the whole thread started on the basis of Francois Gautier's book, here is an article abt the same. Hope it opens some eyes.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/m...0801870300.htm

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

This title is even more provocative ! :oops:
Wondering how MODS have spared this one ! :(

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Exactly!!!
The mods look like Hindutva and casteist apologists themselves.
"No casteist or religious bashings please", they would say but Islam bashing is fine for them :banghead: :banghead:

Talking about a portion of Indian History is Islam Bashing?! :banghead: How do u guys come up with this stuff?? :roll: And why the hell are you bringing in chaste into all of this? Who was being Castiest? :?

Why don't you go back and take a look @ who brought Hindutva into this in the first place! :roll:

Also take a look @ who was being discussed before Hindutva was brought in! It was Mainly Mogul Kings and the Kashmiri Terrorists! :roll:

NOW:

IS IT POSSIBLE TO DEBATE TO DISCUSS A SECT OF INDIAN HISTORY IN THIS FORUM? WHY IS THIS TOPIC FROWNED UPON IN THIS SECTION? :banghead:

IF WE SAY THAT WE WILL NOT MAKE ANY REFERENCES TO PRESENT DAY MUSLIMS, WILL YOU STILL HAVE A PROB WITH THE TOPIC?

WHY WOULD THIS TOPIC OFFEND MINORITIES IF THEY THOUGHT THAT THE MOGUL KINGS WERE BARBARIC IN TREATING HINDUS??

Please answer these questions before you try to STEER this debate into a different Direction in which you people seem to be excellent in doing. PLEASE!!

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Originally Posted by Surya

I feel that Hindutva doesn't have to be justified to anyone. It's a feeling that rises in the minds of many hindus, it also depends on the enviorment one is brought up in. Rather than trying to Justify it, I'm going to embrace it and move on. (i will TRY not to justify it. ) :P

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Well, heart rules over mind!. All discussions are futile if no one justifies his/her stand. If everyone is cosy in their own beliefs, unwilling to give a thought to others' points and arguments, what is the need of this thread? Remember reading this somewhere - When the master is asked why he doesn't debate with anyone, he replies:"what people look for in debates are points that strengthen their own beliefs rather than points that may cast a doubt on their beliefs and force them to question themselves".

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Originally Posted by Surya

Selva,

What is provocative? Weren't Hindus Being Persecuted for their religion a result of the Islamic/Mogul Invasions in India? :huh:

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Surya :)
There were so many invasions on India.. Be it from the west or from the other side. but this title makes everyone feel as if India was invaded only by Muslims.
Then what can you say about the western people. Atleast, the invading by Muslims didn't had its presence on every province of India whereas the western invasion was quite atrocious.!
So, Considering that, I feel that this thread had been renamed just to
"Bash Muslims alone for everything and to project them alone in this"

P.S: I request the MODS to rename this thread or do the needful !

selva,

In fact no other invasions was bloody and destructor as the islamic invasions in India.. It is surely the biggest destruction caused to Humans without looking his color or religion..

This subject is so important for the world history not only Hindus..

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Originally Posted by Eelavar

selva,

In fact no other invasions was bloody and destructor as the islamic invasions in India.. It is surely the biggest destruction caused to Humans without looking his color or religion..

This subject is so important for the world history not only Hindus..

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So much more important because Francois Gautier thinks so too . :?

dsath,

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So much more important because Francois Gautier thinks so too .

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Have you already read the book ?

Gautier is not the sole who think and say that !
Look what Danielou and Koenraad Elst , two indologists, say !

Look even Sri Aurobindo one of our greatest modern philosopher !

Indians are the worst people when they must blame and condemn a crime !

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Originally Posted by Surya

Hmmm..Not sure.

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Exactly that is what the point is. There is no technical definition of Hindu in the Indian Constitution.

However, there is judicial definition of Hinduism given by the Indian Supreme Court in 1966. The first criterion is 'Acceptance of the Vedas with reverence as the highest authority in religious and philosophic matters.'

Irrespective of whether the Vedas recognise the term 'Hindu' or not, which it doesn't anyway, the law of karma and the doctrine of reincarnation nullifies whatever the claims of "Genocide of Hindus" or "Islamic Invasions! Hindus Persecutions!" are made. According to the defined Hinduism itself, all kinds of sufferings and tortures, whether they are caused through invasions, genocide or persecution, are attributable to the bad karma of the past.

If that is what it eventually comes to, why a true Hindu should shy away from accepting what he truely believes is the truth as preached?

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Originally Posted by Surya

Why does it matter to the discussion, if we're going to use that definition for the discussion?

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Which definition are you talking about Surya? So far, I have neither seen nor read any definition of the Hindu anywhere.

If there is no definition of Hindu, then it is much easier for someone to misuse the terminology and misapply where it is absolutely unfit for purpose. The whole scenario becomes much more prone to unfair bias and distortion by the one who talks so much about X but doesn't know what X exactly means!

Anyway, it does matter and it doesn't, depending on what purpose one wants serve through such discussions. It does matter if one truly wants to know what were the real causes behind all these perceived effects. It doesn't matter if people simply wants to sweep all relevant facts, situations and detrimental factors under the carpet and blame others for the hopeless consequences brought up by nothing else but the heedless and nonsensical acts of the past (read it as bad karma). :) :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Eelavar

dsath,

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So much more important because Francois Gautier thinks so too .

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Have you already read the book ?

Gautier is not the sole who think and say that !
Look what Danielou and Koenraad Elst , two indologists, say !

Look even Sri Aurobindo one of our greatest modern philosopher !

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Eelavar, i don't care what 'indologists' think or feel abt India. These Indologits are not Indians, even though they have lived in India and know a lot abt India. Do we always require outsiders to dictate what is important/unimportant for us? Their relationship with India esp Gautier's work reminds me of Hitler's views abt India.
Did Sri Arubindo say that Hindus have been persecuted a lot and we have to continually remind ourselves abt it?

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Originally Posted by Eelavar

Indians are the worst people when they must blame and condemn a crime !

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Eelvar compassion and change is what enabled India to carry on her culture. Whenever there were twists and bends we adapted and adopted suitably.
While other old civilizations have died, Indian civilization continues to evolve and flourish. If we start on the road of intolerance and blame game then we are sure to join the other older civilizations. If not today, its bound to happen tomorrow.
Despite many inadequacies (which pizzalot has written a lot abt) i am sure we will continue to reform and survive if we abstain from embracing extremists/fundamentalists.
We have had many reformists who have been successful in the past, what we require is more of them and their sensible voices to be heard amidst all the noise created by fundamentalists.

Rohit,
I was talking about this Definition:

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People who call and called themselves as Hindus (U know what I mean by calling themselves as hindus, I know the term hindu is new and all, but u get the idea.) and those who worshipped gods who are defined today as Hindu Gods, like Shiva, Ram, Krishna, Muruga, Sudalai Maadan, Karuppu Sami etc.

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On what Criteria does the Indian Census Beurau determine one as a Hindu then?

Selva,

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but this title makes everyone feel as if India was invaded only by Muslims.

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I don't see how it makes people think that...:?

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Atleast, the invading by Muslims didn't had its presence on every province of India whereas the western invasion was quite atrocious.!

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True...Maybe we should start another thread to discuss that then! :)

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"Bash Muslims alone for everything and to project them alone in this"

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We're not bashing present day muslims. That wasn't even the intent of the thread. The intent was to discuss the invasions, and the persecution that the people of India went throught for their religion, along with discussing Kashmiri Terrorism, and other acts of terrorism. :) Has nothing to do with present day innocent muslims. I see that they were dragged into this, but that too only because a certain hubber unneccerily steered the discussion into a whole different direction for whatever reason. :)