IR Compositions: Lyrics and Situation

sivasub,
:-)

Actually you're only supporting my point and why should I pounce on you - especially when I don't know Telugu :-) If you please read my posts in the previous pages, it'll be easy for you to see my actual bias :wink:

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Originally Posted by Sanjeevi

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.

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எந்த கிணத்துக்குள்ள சார் இருக்கீங்க? ஓ வைரமுத்துவோடது வா?

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In a way I have to agree VM's influence is more than IR's...
IR = 1976-1992 ( 16 years) - 3 National awards.
VM = 1980-2000 (20+ years) - 5 National Awards. Actually his output in Tamil was very low between 1986-1992, because of his break-up with IR. I do accept VM's work has not been that great recently.

venkkiram is not in well. You are... in IR's well. Tamilnadu, India, rest of the world moved past IR long time ago. There are few people like you still hang on to him. You listen his songs, his BGM, dig-up his rare works and enjoy every minute details in it. I do not say that is wrong. That is your choice.

But I can not accept when you insult/degrade others to praise IR. Let us see some of the statements made by people like you.

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது.

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This statement insults VM.

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Originally Posted by kiru

There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him.

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This goes one step more to insult every one working with IR.

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Originally Posted by app_engine

Musing more on this 'lyric' aspect, I think the degeneration started much before him, when vAli started off in a big way with his "eulogising" MGR (and KaNNadAsan's prolificity took a beating due to his personality clashes / politics and various other factors by the 70's). The more heard movie songs of 70's had no appreciable lyrics or music but political agenda on horn speakers, IMO. Forcing mEttukkudi's to go to lyrics they could not understand / appreciate much (indhi / abba-boneyM).

That way, it won't be wrong to say that IR kind of brought back attention to Thamizh lyrics once again to TN people :-) Except that save a brief association with VM, he possibly couldn't get opportunities to work with extraordinary poets.

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This statement insults every poet from 1970s, just to praise IR. Why see only see MGR/Sivaji songs? What about Balachandar's movies in 1970s?

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Originally Posted by Plum

If any one md in tn can do justice to tamil, that is IR. For that, he'd need poetry of the calibre of bharathi or thiruvasagam. If he doesn't rate current kavignars, that is his prerogative.

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Basically plum says IR does not respect current poets. (And that is true!!)

You are the same people who trashed, insulted, ridiculed ARR for a long time, for only one reason: He dethroned IR. Only recently, these insults have come down after Oscar. (Now, do not stamp me as ARR fan, I like every one's music.. I like IR, ARR, HJ, Deva, VS and more)

Praise IR whatever way you want, but do not insult/ridicule others.

Sanjeevi - Most of the above "you" does not refer to you, but generally refers to a group called "die-hard IR fans". This is not a personal attack on any one. If anyone feels that way, I am sorry.

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Originally Posted by app_engine

ok, my digression:

Since when this 'national award' thingy has become a gold standard for determining quality of "lyrics' ? :lol:

I can't believe that most (rather any) of those "judges" can appreciate poem of even one language and to expect them to compare many poems of a variety of languages and judge the best is simply expecting too much. That too by simply sitting through a few sessions where "engilees captions" are the only window (I would recommend 'kadalOrakkavidhaikaL' DVD for anyone who want to appreciate Thamizh poem with engilees sub-titles :lol: Nauseating!)

In addition, most movies with great songs / better lyrics are not even presented to the NA panel. Only a few savvy producers even take them there - i.e. those with "connections".

Please don't bring down the stature of VM by quoting NA's! He has got great credentials otherwise :-)

End-digression

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app_engine,

I accept NA is not the best yard stick to measure. (I just did in the previous post again :roll: ). But how can you counter absolutely impossible comments like these?

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

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Originally Posted by genesis

This statement insults every poet from 1970s, just to praise IR. Why see only see MGR/Sivaji songs? What about Balachandar's movies in 1970s?

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How many KB songs of 70's were in 'kOlAmbi speakers' or 'tea stalls' or such public places? Only AIR partronised some of those. There again, all weren't "great poems". ( என்னடா பொல்லாத வாழ்க்க'க்கும் 'வள்ளி வள்ளி என வந்தாளு'க்கும் என்ன பெரிய வித்தியாசம்?)

It's not just my personal opinion about the state of TFM in 70's but an acknowledged "general perception" that it was dismal. People found it "low class" to even associate themselves with Thamizh songs but preferred to be identified with indhi or abba/boneyM. Whether die-hard VM fans and others accept it or not, VM himself would not have shot into such prominence had IR not elevated TFM into a different platform.

Why, even VM had some mentoring by IR at his entry period, can he or anyone deny it? As the details of ladAi between him and IR are not known (possibly will never be open to public), I don't want to comment on either of them for breaking that alliance.

I'm not a big fan of VM's works with ARR - NA or otherwise, they just pale in comparison to the numbers he worked with IR in nativity & poetic beauty (It's possible IR-VM songs didn't have much karuththu but I don't care about karuththu biz in movie songs at all - nativity, smoothness and beauty are what I look for in poems, karuththu is optional).

Again, if all v.ram, g.sis want is for us to acknowledge that ir was an arrogant prick, a half talent propped up by circumstances and vm, I say let's acknowledge and stop this here.
What I find funniest is the claims on vm being more influential than ir on tn movie scene. Apparently, ir died in 1992 accorfing to g.sis. Adhukkappuram tamizh padamE parkala pola. Why argue with such a vidhandAvadhist?

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Basically plum says IR does not respect current poets. (And that is true!!)

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Hello, dont put words in my mouths-u :-)
There is a if somewhere in my statement and that means it is conditional logic. Raja doesnt respect lyricsits-nu only people who have scanned his mind can tell. Maybe you did. Maybe you have special gifts - I dont.

This arbitrary killing of Raja's career at the 1992 mark is a hallmark of certain anti-Raja campers. There has been great music from him since then - Hey Ram, GURU if you want absolute standards, and many more if you merely want "excellent". Anniyan, Youth ellAM great kavidhai-amam but IR post-1992 oNNUmE sollikaradhukku illaiyamam. And we should believe these guys are honest critics-Amam.

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

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Ah come on. It is one thing to say that VM's best was with IR but completely another thing to say the above statement.

He has written beautiful lines for Rahman like the memorable கிழக்குச் சீமையிலே

காயப்பட்ட சொந்தத்துக்கு கண்ணீர் விட்டா
சாயம் போன வாழ்க்கையிலும் சாரம் இருக்கு
இவுக பொழப்புக்கு நீர்வார்க்க தான்
ஈசான மூலையில மேக...ம் இருக்கு

And if the colloquial-simple-beauty card is played I find it hard to look beyond:

வாசப்படி கடக்கையில வரலையே பேச்சு
பள்ளப்பட்டி தாண்டிபுட்டா பாதி உயிர் போச்சு

To claim that VM's was no good without IR is not a balanced statement at all.

btw மேற்பார்வை ??

Dear friends,
PL listen IR's new films and the lyrics.

Film - Jaganmohini

SLong - Nilavu varum neram

Whos the lyricist???

Sanga yilakiya vaarthaigal ellam
azhaga use panni,
IR composition la oru paatu..

Lyrics told the character of the period...

Tats IR...


starting lines nothing spl. edho reason irukum..

Stanza is very nice...

oru yilakiya kavidhaiku IR compose pannina madhiri.

kaatu aruvi kootai vandhu
aravanaika vandhadhae..

idharu pin varum lyircs in 2nd stanza

very nice.....

velai pola
vizhigal paaiychuma
valigal thangavilai
meendum oor prvai parthidu
very varthai ilai

comings lines are nice...

unnai seravae
mannil vaazhgiren
indha naal varai

andha purathil
undhan arugilae
sondha paravai anen
anjanagalai theetum
vizhiyilae unnai
theeti ponen
ven puravi megam polavae
ilamai konjam
varambu meeratum
manmahdan maiyinal
maiyal kodu mannava

Ingae IR in rasanai and invovement ai feel
pannugiren......

Yes Usha. I am also quite impressed with the lyrics in JM. I had written about that when I wrote a brief review of the songs. Unfortunately, the CD is not out in Bangalore and when I checked a couple of web sites, they didn't list the lyrics. One review had mentioned Vaali, so I guess he must have written atleast one of the songs.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

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Ah come on. It is one thing to say that VM's best was with IR but completely another thing to say the above statement.

He has written beautiful lines for Rahman like the memorable கிழக்குச் சீமையிலே

காயப்பட்ட சொந்தத்துக்கு கண்ணீர் விட்டா
சாயம் போன வாழ்க்கையிலும் சாரம் இருக்கு
இவுக பொழப்புக்கு நீர்வார்க்க தான்
ஈசான மூலையில மேக...ம் இருக்கு

And if the colloquial-simple-beauty card is played I find it hard to look beyond:

வாசப்படி கடக்கையில வரலையே பேச்சு
பள்ளப்பட்டி தாண்டிபுட்டா பாதி உயிர் போச்சு

To claim that VM's was no good without IR is not a balanced statement at all.

btw மேற்பார்வை ??

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Agree with that. This is another extreme position in this debate. I think much of IR's lyrical decisions are based on structuring his ideas musically, and fitting in words accordingly, poetic beauty be damned, although he can, if the occasion demands, do justice to great lyrics as well. If a lyricist, I'd be extremely frustrated with IR. But to use that as a stick to beat him with is unwarranted, as is happening with certain agenda-driven parties here. It is extremely laughable tos ay that VM's influence is from 1980-2000 while IR's influence on TFM was between 1976-1992. Eh? Even today, you see his influence looming like a large shadow, sometimes to the detriment of the movie in question, in the last couple of years in superhits and critically acclaimed movies.