Yes that is true, Rama avatar was totaly different to Krishna avatarQuote:
Originally Posted by viggop
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Yes that is true, Rama avatar was totaly different to Krishna avatarQuote:
Originally Posted by viggop
Observe our thoughts.....................
Thoughts gives rise to desires which when either can be fullfilled. If not fulfilled, then there is sorrow which leads to anger and then loss of memory, delution and destruction.
Interestingly, fullfilled desires either gives pride or jealousy. If the desire fullfilled is less than the other's fullfilled desires, it gives rise to jealousy. If the fullfilled desires are more than other's fullfilled desires, then Pride comes. With pride or jealousy, loss of memory, delution and destruction happens. The desires again feed further desires and the loop continues. This is the loop of samsara.
Gita, second chapter, 62-63 verses , krishna talks about how insatiable desire can cause destruction. This applies not only to many characters in Mahabahrata, each and every one of us living in this world.
Dear Pradheep,
I will get back to you n your above post very soon, thanks :D
Panchali Sabatham was written by Mahakavi Subramaniya Bharathi
Find a urai for that in this excellent website.
http://www.harimozhi.com/ListArticle...ngArticleId=22
Also,that site contains lot of other information on Tamil literature.
Unarguably a very knowledgable set of verses! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Dear lordstanher
Indeed great knowledge given by a king to another king which holds good for all humankind for all ages.
[quote="pradheep"]
Gita, second chapter, 62-63 verses , krishna talks about how insatiable desire can cause destruction. This applies not only to many characters in Mahabahrata, each and every one of us living in this world.[/quote]
correct, but many take this greatest epic as a fantasy, without realising it's full potential, this a teaching to us mundane ppl, about dharama/adharma,karma,mukthi/moksha, but are we actually applying or atleast taking these into consideration in our so called mundane materialistic maya life?? :cry: :cry:
Dear Raghu
That is the nature of the Ego mind, not to "think and analyze". The ego mind is weak that it has no support and so tend to rely "other's views" to validate. Instead if the intellect is strengthened then it will start to use it (practice) and then will determine whether it is a truth or fallacy. I find sadly that many people instead of this approach just enjoy the story, the theme, the poetry and literature beauty. Of course that is good to enjoy the poetry, but it is only outside cover.
It is like receiving a pack and instead of opening and looking at the beautiful diamond necklase, people tend to enjoy only the pack. Others who do not know the potential through the worthy diamond remarking it as a glass piece.
This is so correct, dear Pradheep!,They just judge the book based on it's cover!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Dear Raghu
Through the story of MBH we can understand everything from creation of the ego and how it gets caught in samasara and finally how it is freed.
Look at the name of shant-anu, a part of the peace who is the descendent of Bha-rath (Bha is bright light and rath is body) whichmeans embodiment of bright light which is Brahman itself. This Shant-anu then falls in love with Ganga (bliss) and seeks it. Rest is history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pradheep
Dear Pradheep,
Is the above story of Bhisma the greatest commander ?
Dear Raghu
Yes about bhisma, who is the eight of vasu's representing the ego (body attachment), the 8th principle needed for birth to occur. This is why bhisma takes the oath to safe guard his kingdom (attachement to the body, body is kingdom here)
Bhishma is the greatest warrior and one who always follows dharma.There was no one who could defeat him in battle(not even Arjuna).In the battle with Bhishma, arjuna lost all desiure to fight twice and got dejected.Both these times, it seems Lord Krishna ran towards bhishma with the disc in his hand saying that if arjuna refuses to fight Bhishma,he'll kill bhishma himself.both times,arjuna begged Krishna to stop and said he'll fight Bhishma.Krishna did this just to enthuse Arjuna.He could have sent the disc from the chariot and it would have killed Bhishma.There was no need for Krishna to rum towards bhishma with that disc in hand.
Finally, bhishma was defeated because he refused to fight a woman(re-incarnation of Amba).This was one of Krishna's tricks again.Arjuna hid behind Amba and sent his powerful arrows at BHishma and bhishma refused to respond as Amba was a woman.Finally,he sent so many arrows that it became a bed of arrows.
But BHishma is just a great character that he could choose the time of his death.ALso, Lord Krishna himself recommended that Yudhistra clear doubts abt dharma from Bhishma when he was lying in the bed of arrows."Vishnu Saharanamam" was told by bhishma to yudishtra in this setting and he also cleared all doubts on Dharma to Yudishtra.
Bhishma had to fight along with Duryodhana because of this "chenchotru kadan".He ate the food offered in Kaurava palace and he even said that it corrupted his mind about dharma.His character has to be analysed in detail.
Pradeep, SRS, Rohit: Kindly take the discussion on Vedanta, I, and other related philosophy to the new thread
"Understanding I - Vedanta"
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=4467
All unnecessary digressions have been removed.
Let this thread discuss Mahabharatha as an epic if hubbers still want to.
What Vighop mentioned about Amba’s incarnation was SHIKANDI.. Amba actually loved another prince Salva and Amba had 2 more sisters .. Ambiga and Ambaalika… At the time of Swayamvaram, Amba will wish to marry her lover but Bhishma will propose to his brother . There will be a mini battle but ultimately Bhishma will win ( including the lover of Amba ) and will take all the 3 princess to Hastinapur. When Bhishma’s brother realizes that Amba’s heart had already gone to another person, he will gracefully accept her wishes and will let her go back to her lover. But Amba’s lover , as he was defeated by Bhishma, will not accept her and he will also tell that as he had lost in the battle , Amba is no longer his lover. This will prompt Amba to go back to Hastinapur but again will get disheartened and this time will be very furious towards Bhishma and will take the support of Parashurama.
Parasurama , originally the Guru of Bhishma … will have a big fight with Bhishma and at one stage when Bhishma will try to use PAASUPATHA ASTHIRAM… one asareeree will shout… to stop using it. At this stage , Parashurama will concede his defeat . Amba now realizing that nobody can beat Bhishma will pray to Lord Shanmuga. Finally Lord Shanmuga will appear and will give a garland and will say that … anybody who wears this garland WILL BECOME A SHATRU TO BHISHMA. The point to note that even Lord Muruga also will not bless somebody to kill Bhishma .
Amba .. being impatient will commit suicide and will take re-birth as ( Shikandi ) a son of Draupadha. ( Here I have no idea on how the garland will be in Draupadha’s palace ). When he grows up, casually he will wear the garland and immediately everybody will start screaming at him that he has become a shatru of the great Bhishma.
Krishna will finally use Shikandi on the 10th day of the battle. The previous night, after heavy pressure from Duryodhana and Shakuni, Bhishma was about to take a vow that the next day, he will destroy the entire Pandavas and this stage, Krishna will realize that its time to INTERVENE and restore balance in the war.
What happens the next day is history now.
When Bhishma sees Shikandi in front of Arjuna , he will recollect his past birth and will also remember his pledge that he will never take up arms against a woman.
Thus , through Krishna’s creative thinking , Arjuna will defeat ONE OF THE GREATEST CHARACTERS .
Please correct me wherever my references are incorrect
Its interesting to note that Lord Muruga appeared before Amba and gave that garland. This also proves that the Avatharam of Lord Muruga had happened before Mahabaratham . And, it had happened in Tamil Nadu. Does it mean that Tamilnadu existed during Mahabharat period. Anybody can enlighten us on this . Sorry for digressing from the main topic.
Wish to know more about the war between the Pandavas group and The Gauravas group. What is interesting to note is that the boundaries of various kings who participated in the great war did not extend beyond Kandahar , Shakuni’s kingdom( Afghanisthan )in the West and Anga ( West Bengal or Orissa ? )
Does it mean that there was no country after Afghanistan.
In the same breadth , was there no civilization beyond Bengal in the eastern side ?
Learned seniors Mr. Sudhama and Mr. Badri can throw some light on this please ?
About Rajneedhi and Dharma being preached and followed in Mahabaratha…
I have one more query..
Dirudhirashtra was the first son , followed by Pandu and Vithura. Ideally Diru should have been the king but for his handicap of being blind.
After Pandu was made the king , he left for Forest for various reasons which is well known. After this episode, Diru will be made King again and he will rule it for sometime until the next generation grew up.
My point here is, Duryodhana also had equal right to the kingdom as he is the son of the existing king , Dirudhirashtra.
In what way , this becomes Adharma ?? Infact I feel Duryodhana , by being a natural successor to the throne had better RIGHT over the throne compared to Yudhistra.
Any counter argument on this pls ?
I have few more questions…
During the exile of Pandavas, Duryodhana ruled . Any information is available on how he ruled the kingdom. I have heard vaguely that the Duryodhana ruled well and the subjects were totally happy and satisfied with the administration.
The only negative aspect of Duryodhana was his envying the Pandavas.
Can somebody come out with the facts please.
Karna's and Bhishma's characters have been highly sophisticated, esp on the Dharma vs Adharma issues, what is adharma from one sides's view (Pandavas view), during the incident when Draupadai was molseted in the court, was completley oppsite to Bhishma's view, ie his dharma was to be loyal to Kauravas though his side was on the evil side,!
Similarly though Karna knew he was the eldest of Pandavas, he fought against them, and vowed to Kill Partha, he knew if partha was killed, kauravas would have won the war, so he was doing his dharma (loyality) to his beloved friend Duryodhana, but on the other hand what he was doing was adharma, from pandavas /Kunti's point of view!
So how does one chose, what is adharma and dharma, in a dharma sankata situations like these?, is it influenced by the circumstances?
Once Sudhama sir has clearly explained this, but it did not get into my thick head, can some enlighten me please?
correct, I have often wondered about this?, can some one pls enlighten me as to why this was regarded as Dharma, ie Duriyodhana being King??Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Quote:
Karna's and Bhishma's characters have been highly sophisticated, esp on the Dharma vs Adharma issues, what is adharma from one sides's view (Pandavas view), during the incident when Draupadai was molseted in the court, was completley oppsite to Bhishma's view, ie his dharma was to be loyal to Kauravas though his side was on the evil side,!
Similarly though Karna knew he was the eldest of Pandavas, he fought against them, and vowed to Kill Partha, he knew if partha was killed, kauravas would have won the war, so he was doing his dharma (loyality) to his beloved friend Duryodhana, but on the other hand what he was doing was adharma, from pandavas /Kunti's point of view!
Raghu,
My view point is :
Karna who previously was identified as a Charioteer’s son was made a king instantly by Duryodhana when he challenged Arjuna at the time when the Pandavas and Gauravas were displaying their respective skills.
So, Karna had an obligation , a sort of quid pro quo relationship with Duryodhana to fulfill and he was forced to support him for all Duryodhana’s misdeeds. This only is the main reason for Karna to be with Duryodhana to fight against Pandavas. This in no way can be defined as a Dharma… If someone can still counter on this.. probably this can be coded as MithruDharma..
There is no incident of Karna coming across Duryodhana before this episode and hence there was a need for Duryodhana to identify someone to challenge Arjuna and he found someone in the form of Karna… What happened subsequently was a friendship built over a period of time. Certain events like when Duryo’s wife and Karna were playing dice…. Etc were all melodramas.. to highlight the level of friendship .
Bhishma is a revered soul.. A great character… In his prime of youth, he sacrificed everything for the sake of his father and he will take a pledge that he will stand by the king of Hastinapur.. This was the prime reason for him to fight for Kauravas finally .
The only negative aspect was… when Draupadi was illtreated in the arena.. he should have stopped that incident … There is no justification for him to remain quiet… whatever may be his commitment to the throne..
The same will be applicable for Acharya Drona as well.
Both Bhishma and Drona had to face their end for being quiet during this Draupadhi episode . But for this incident Bhisma was the most perfect character in this Great Epic. A fitting response from SriKrishna will come in the form of Vishnu Sahasranamam being told through Bhishma after the war.. That reflected SriKrishna’s respect and regard for Bhishma.
Dharma can be essentially classified into individual dharma (ID) and Fundamental Dharma (FD).
Karna, Bhishma etc adhered to Indiv. dharma. Now, ID is ok as long as it does not conflict with FD. FD is the more universal dharma. For instance, during the humiliation of Draupadi, it is FD to prevent it from happening. And in the sastras proclaim that when ID conflicts with FD, it is FD that has to be followed, and not ID.
If ID is to be held supreme, then each person will start violating the social and legal norms in the excuse that it is his ID. A man might become a burglar on the pretext that it is his ID to protect and provide for his family.
I hope I have been able to bring out the difference clearly. It is the mark of the wise and the discriminating to be able to understand which Dharma is more applicable in a given scenario. That is why Vibheeshana chose the right path, while Kumbhakarna erred.
Similarly, Bhishma, Drona etc made the mistake of adhering to ID, and failed when it came to FD.
Mr. Badri,
Your analysis of ID and FD is nice. I think this will be applicable to even Acharya Drona as well . Drona considered his ID higher than FD and his loyalty to Dirudhirashtra and for not having reacted when Draupadhi was illtreated paved way for his end. Eventhough the means adopted to kill him were not correct, he had to die for taking ID.
Badri AnNe
So If ID and FD comes in to conflict, then chosinf FD over will be dharma, while chosing ID over FD will be adharma, this is indeed a 'Dharma Sankata' situation.
If there is such a thing as ID and FD as you have mentioned, then Karna, Bhishma, Drona and Arjuna are all adharma vaathis, right?
Raghu,
Karna, Bhisma and Drona.... are all cannot be classified under Adharmavadhees... Unfortunately, they had to stand by Duryodhana who was an Adharmavadhee
Why did you add Arjuna to this list ??
Balaji AnNeQuote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Any one who supports adharmam are adharmavadhees in terms of Fundamental Adharmavadhees, though they may be Individual Dharmavadhees, Karna, Bhisma and Drona fall into this category!
1) Killing Karna when he is unarmedQuote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
2) Killing Karna's son from behind
3) Using Sikandi as a shield to kill Bhishma
this all shows the adharma's inflicted by Arjuna, and also shows his Cowardness, esp towards Karna!!!
Raghu Ji, :D
I have a question.
Arjuna wasn't supporting adharmavadhees, he was fighting them, but used some adharma ways while doing it. "beat them with their own tool" kind of thing.
Isn't all that justified since Arjuna was fighting for Dharma even though he did some things that are considered as Adharma along the way?
Regards. 8)
Dear Raghu,
Pointing out at Arjuna being adharmavaadhee as he killed the mighty 3 in an adharma way... there are 2 more instances where Arjuna was adopting adharma to eliminate the enemy :
1. Poorisiravas... He was fighting with Satyaki and was about to kill him ... when under the directions of Krishna, Arjuna will shoot an arrow which will cut Poorisiravas's right hand...
It was not as per Yudha Dharma as Poori was fighting with another guy and not with Arjuna. Poor Arjuna had to do it as per the wishes of Srikrishna...
2. Jayathratha
3. Bagadhathan
I will give more details on this shortly
Jayathratha the earlier day was instrumental in blocking the path of other 4 pandavas as Drona created Chakravyugh and only Abhimanyu knew how to pierce but was not taught on how to come out of it. WHile he went in successfully, the breach was stalled by Jayathratha and he was unbeatable that day while all the 4 pandavas tried their best to enter.
Poor ABimanyu got killed by the entire group.
Arjuna got wild and he took an oath that if he does not kill Jayathradha the next day before sunset, he will commit suicide.
The war next day went almost up to the sunset as Jayathradha was a valiant warrior.. and he was also protected by the entire Kaurava force.
At one stage Krishna will do a maya act and will hide the Sun God for few moments.... Everybody will think that the sun has set and will start celebrating the moment including Jayathratha...
Arjuna , at this moment will send an arrow which will cut Jayathradha's head and will carry all the way to his Father's lap...
( there is another big story of Jayathradha )
Ultimately, Arjuna could not have killed Jayathradha but for Krishna's guile and magic.
Raghu,
If you talk about adharma being adopted by Arjuna doing the war,, the list is endless :
1. Bhishma .... was defeated ( but not killed ) through the shield of Shikandi...
( I had written a posting on the background of Shikandi )
2. Drona... Was about to use Bramastra and destroy the entire pandava army when ... under Krisha's advise.... Bhima will kill an elephant by name Aswathaama and shamelessly tell Drona that he had killed Aswathama... Drona .... for him ... Aswathama was life and he will reconfirm with Yudhistira who will also shamelessly say that yes... Aswathama is killed... but in a mild tone.... an elephant... Drona will not hear the second sentence of Yudhistra and will give up arms and will lay in yoganishta when Drishtadyuma will cut his head..
3. Karna..... You know the whole story...
Karna's curse was momentary as he will forget all the skills what he had learnt from Parasurama... but Arjuna could never have killed Karna as he is equally matched in skills...
Arjuna had to kill him while Karna was trying to lift his chariot wheels.
4. Duryodhana...... The whole world knew that he cannot be beaten in mace fight..... and as per the war rules.... one should not hit before hip.....
Beema ... under the advise of Krishna will hit his thigh and he will also collapse.
5. I have mentioned already about ... Poorisiravas.
6. Bagadhathan was an old brave warrior... and known for elephant fighting and is a specialist.... Due to his ageing... he will wear a cloth to hold the extra flesh which was coming before his eyes....
At one stage. Bagadhatha will use the Ankush and chant Narayan astra... and will throw at Arjuna... but krishna will appear before him and will absorb that astra... .WHICH OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE KILLED ARJUNA INSTANTLY.
As this was Narayana Astra... Sri VIshnu's astra.... Krishna happily will absorb it and will protect Arjuna.
Arjuna will cut the cloth which was protecting the eyes of Bagadhatha...
This will make Bagadhathan virtually blind as he will not be able to see anyting.
At this time... Arjuna will send an arrow which will kill Bagadhathan....
The above are all what pandavas did....
The one adharma what Gauravas did was.... killing abimanyu as a group .... when he was without arms.....
But for this episode... the war was won by pandavas purely but wicked and adharma methods...
Dear Raghu..
You have created 2 wonderful threads….. Ramayana and Mahabaratha…
I suggest onething….. Shall we take up topic by topic in both the epics… and analyse…so that it will form a sequence…. It will also be easy for others to follow..
What do you feel ??
Surya...Quote:
Originally Posted by Surya
I think what Raghu is driving is ....... Arjuna is known for his mastery over warfare..... A great warrior.... He should have won over his rivals by adopting YUDHA DHARMA.... while he followed YUDHA ADHARMAAA... to kill all his rivals....
I am sure... but for that act.. he could never have killed Karna / Bhishma.....
Both were skilled archers and great warrior.s
Raghu: In the case of Arjuna, again it is the classic case of ID vs FD. What he did may look adharmic, but that is from an ID point of view. As a soldier, as a warrior, he had to follow a personal code of conduct, which is ID in this case. But as a citizen of the world, in the general interests of all, the Dharma Yuddha was being waged. It was his duty as a Dharmic person to overcome the forces of Adharma. Hence, this is Fundamental Dharma.
Besides, while all of argue or point out Krishna'a apparant "adharmic" suggestions, we must also not forget the opinions of all the people, including Drona, Bhisma, Sanjaya, Gandhari, Dritharasthra etc. that
Yathra Dharmo thatra Krishna
Yathra Krishno thatra Jaya
meaning, where there is Dharma, there is Krishna, where there is Krishna, there is victory.
That even the so-called enemies acknowledged the fact that Krishna would be dharmic gives us no real authority to question or discuss any adharma on the part of Krishna. Again, as Krishna himself declares in the Gita, he is Dharmakrit, the author of Dharma.
Also, one must understand that the influence of Kaliyuga was already being felt during the war. Every Yuga has a Yugadharma. And as the story goes, Dharma stands on all 4 legs during Kritha Yuga, 3 during Treta, 2 in Dwapara and only one leg during Kaliyuga.
So, when all these collective influences, and the entire concept of individual vs fundamental dharma is considered, only then can one truly understand the real significance of Krishna's actions during the war, his advice and suggestions to the Pandavas. In isolation, in the absence of these facts would only lead to erroneous conclusions.
The entire war started because of Adharma only.If only Duryodhana had given the rightful share of the kingdom back to Pandavas(atleast 5 villages!). but he refuses to do that.Sudhaama Sir had already explained the death of Duryodhana.It was duryodhana who was adharmic and lied to Bhima on his weak spot while Bhima told the truth.Hence,Krishna pointed it out to Bhima that the weak spot was the thighs.
As We all know, the Lord was the SuthraDhari.He moved his pawns(characters in mahabharatha) in all directions as per his wish.All the world is a stage!
Surya :D ,Quote:
Originally Posted by Surya
Yes it is, Lord Krishna clarifies this in Gita
BalaJi AnNeQuote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
This is the first time, I am hearing about Bagdhathan, can you pls tell me a bit more bout him?
thanks :D
correct, 100% correct!Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Yes please :) , but i don't know where to start :? , so please have the honours :)Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji anNe
Dear Viggop,Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
I think the Duryodhana episode goes like this….
When Draupadhi was treated very badly in Rajyasabha… at One stage… when Draupadhi was pulled in by Dushashan, Duryodhana will ask her to sit on his thighs…. This will prompt Bhima to take a vow that during the war, he will break the thighs of Duryodhana and take revenge. (He will also take a vow that he will kill the entire 100 kauravas).
The same vow will be reminded very tactfully by Krishna when the fight between Bhima and Duryodhana reaches a peak stage. Duryodhana will emerge very stronger and that stage Krishna will realize that this fight should it get extended… Duryodhana will emerger victorious and will decide to apply that ploy of hitting below thigh . Duryodhana was so confident that Bhima will not stoop down to such levels that he will break the war rules of mace fighting but it will come a deadly blow to him.
Leave apart the dharma angle…. It was a shameful act by the entire Pandavas for having adopted negative approach to killing their main rivals.
My point is that Bhima and Arjuna are well known warriors and superior in their craft. They should not have ventured into timid tactics.