Kamalhassan's Ideology in his films

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Originally Posted by kalyan

here is another school of thought that among the samanars of the town Ennayiram, only those priests who were involved in the debate committed suicide and the remaning Jains converted to Himduism and were absorbed s a distinct sect of Brahmins. even today, tamil iyers have three main divisions: VadamAL, BrahacharaNam and Ashtasahasram. the word "Ashta" (meaning 'eight') and 'sahasram' (meaning 'thousand') is a literal translation of eNNayiram. there is a school of thought that the ashtasahasram brahmins are the descendents of the jains from eNNayiram

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. Oh ok ! That's interesting.

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Originally Posted by kalyan

where he says "sivan pErAl samaNargaL kazhuvEtrappattanar" and tries to portray Shaivies / hindus in a bad light.

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Kalyan, the point is, 'why should Hindus today be offended by this' ? Taking offence comes from the assumption of a strong continuity. Today's catholic is horrified by the inquisition. He isn't offended by the mention of it.

The point of Kamal not sufficiently criticizing the failings of other persuasions, this has been widely discussed here. Particularly around the time of UPO.

I for one felt he was humouring extreme Muslim critics , who weren't really 'deep' enough for someone like Kamal to engage in conversation with. And worse still, he was half-apologetically defending his film and establishing his credentials. Something he would just not bother doing with the extreme right from the other end of the religious spectrum :-)

OTOH some (like B(K) ) thought it quite necessary that he establish his record and defend himself.

AppuRam andha thread-ai thaNNi oothi aNaichu, pootti vachchu, kaayappOttOm-nu ninaikkuREn. :lol2:

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Originally Posted by Srimannarayanan

Near Kanchipuram , we have a temple for "Thulukanthaman"

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There is a temple in Nungambakkam for துளிக்கானத்தம்மன். I don't know the associated myth though.

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Originally Posted by P_R

Today's catholic is horrified by the inquisition. He isn't offended by the mention of it.

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I carefully avoided touching that :D னெறைய matter இருக்கு, especially regardig the Goan one. அப்புறம் பெசுவோம் :)

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by Srimannarayanan

Near Kanchipuram , we have a temple for "Thulukanthaman"

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There is a temple in Nungambakkam for துளிக்கானத்தம்மன். I don't know the associated myth though.

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very much expected and understandable :)

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Originally Posted by kalyan

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by Srimannarayanan

Near Kanchipuram , we have a temple for "Thulukanthaman"

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There is a temple in Nungambakkam for துளிக்கானத்தம்மன். I don't know the associated myth though.

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very much expected and understandable :)

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adhu enna espettEsan?

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by kalyan

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by Srimannarayanan

Near Kanchipuram , we have a temple for "Thulukanthaman"

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There is a temple in Nungambakkam for துளிக்கானத்தம்மன். I don't know the associated myth though.

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very much expected and understandable :)

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adhu enna espettEsan?

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most local hindu names are based on a local deity. hence i expected a deity with a similar name in those areas :)

As usual, oru loooong post.

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Originally Posted by equanimus

Just to clarify, by 'spiritual,' I mean metaphysical ruminations..

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Originally Posted by equanimus

...isn't it striking that Kamal invokes someone like Thirumoolar in the first place? I certainly do agree that Kamal has no time for religious hokum. So yes, he's demystifying Thirumoolar, but the question is if he de-spiritualizes.

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To me, demystifying and despiritualizing are the same. I think the most important function of spirituality or religion is to keep the mystery aspect alive. This is what gives meaning to religion (mythology), personal or private. If the mystery aspect is lost, if all can be explained in physical-mental-emotional terms, then one is cutting out a whole dimension of the human experience and therefore has to loop back to this world with its dual principles. I had already raised this point in the Richard Dawkins debate.

Keeping this post to Anbe Sivam alone, I didn't catch this mystery aspect anywhere in the film, as we agree. Sure, some metaphysical questions are raised (by Anbarasu for instance, who raises the question of "why such a system?" when the kid dies, as a theist would do; but somehow doesn't recall the 'vidhi' term, contrary to a Hindu's regular fall-back to the why question). But Nallasivam doesn't offer a metaphysical answer, so I am forced to consider the movie to be only humanitarian, not spiritual.

Also, every character in the movie who plays a role in raising or answering those questions assumes that God is "good" somehow, which is again a juvenile viewpoint of religion/spirituality and fails after a certain amount of thought about the matter. For example, Lord Shiva is also the great destroyer.. mercilessly ripping through the world at each final phase, irrespective of the good-bad nature of the people in it. The Buddha, considered to be the most compassionate being, also appears in horrendous forms in Buddhist mythology. God is therefore not just 'goodness' or 'good', but is infact transcendent to the definitions of goodness-badness that arise from the mind and which change with time.

Thirumoolar does in-fact take this view of God, verse no 21 here

http://ia331331.us.archive.org/0/ite...h015044mbp.pdf

starts like this

"Eesan irukkum iruvinaikku appuram"


and thereby closes the argument "To be good is to be God-like". Assuming that Thirumoolar was consistent in his view of spirituality, he could not have meant the being-compassionate attitude of Nalla when he mentions "Anbe Sivam", for its just one side of the coin. Of course, in human terms - God's grace, aruL, paasam, etc... nnu solraaru, but none of this has anything to do with the human definitions of good-bad. Even being the monstrous Kalabhairavar, Thirumoolar would agree that Shiva is utmost merciful, while KH's Nalla would disagree (like Govind questions after the Tsunami in Dasavatharam).

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Originally Posted by equanimus

I'm not sure which interviews you're talking about. I've seen interviews where he quotes Adi Sankaras and Jesuses of the world, calling them atheists of their times, interviews where he traces Periyar to the heritage of Siththars. The metaphysical terrain of myths like Ramayana and Mahabharatha are touched upon at the drop of a hat in his films.

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Adishankara(s?) and Jesus(es?) sure went against the grain during their times, but to claim either were atheists is strange and seems illogical to me. Periyar matter pathi theriyaadhu...

Love and Light.

Bypassed most of k-g's,equa's and P_R's posts :oops: (no time now to read/absorb/think)

Small question regarding the dialogue in the climax of Thevar Magan and one dialogue in 10A i.e in P_R's words the alleged impotency of the alleged omnipotent-Why makes KH think that if a GOD exists his job is to prevent famine,orphans,tsunami,poverty etc etc etc.

Am surprised that for a man of his intelligence,his thoughts on this subject in his films should come across as so childish.

Taking this line of argument,if Rama,Krishna,Ganesha are failing in their so called duties which KH and his like expect them to do,then is not Allah,Jesus also failing????????Then why relate only Hindu motifs to bad in the world and berate them/say they do not exist?

Have read a couple of his interviews where he speaks with more authority and knowledge.This makes me think if he is sending out a politically convinient image of a secular,leftist intellectual.I hope not!

Without really getting into the atheist/agnostic/theist debate,Mani has kept his films(the ones I have seen which is everything expect Unnaru,the Mohan-Ambika-Radha one and Raavanan)free of these debates.He really has not given an in-your-face insight into his personal beliefs.Even the limited number of interviews he has done are free of such discussions.Wondering how Mani came in when KH is being discussed.They hardly have anything in common.

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Originally Posted by Cinefan

Am surprised that for a man of his intelligence,his thoughts on this subject in his films should come across as so childish.

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His is a response to the general public expectation about God.

That is what I meant when I say Kamal's ruminations about the subject will always be 'social' and not 'personal' a la Woody. The concept of 'God' as a Supreme, harmony of the existence etc. is less interesting to him, than the 'wide' belief that he is an intervener who will bring justice.

For those who are claiming kamal as anti-brahmin and pro-(non-Hindu) religion, i thought to point krishnaveni paatti who considered the dead poovaraaghan and uttered the words"poda poda jaathi pisaasu" but alas, following the next scene, where govind aka kamal-the-writer says " unga paattikkum unga bagavaanukkum (mind) just not there" he shatters the beleif. why such useless dialogs?

There is another live comedy where ulaganaayagan portrayed 'certain' 'specific' paarpana magalir as spoiling tamil spell and diction when they spell "saapteLaa" as "shaapteLaa" if this is a stupid thing which spoils the language then what about the whole nadraas bashai, and counless accent which he fondly takes on screen???? avingellaam thamizhai naasthi pannalayo? what a discrimination, sir? THis live comedy happened in a Vijay TV Promo for UPO