thiruvasakam in symphony

And I contributed more personally with time and money as well as thro' many of my nontamil speaking Kannada, telugu friends who contributed decently ( BTW, my name is still missing from the donor's list, I am happy my friends names from NY, NJ area is in the list,)
Thro' the same avenue, I had an opportunity to interact briefly with IR , apart from my self gratification of having seen and interacted with the genious whose music has always played a predominant role in my life , I could only confirm his egocentric attitude a few times ( knowingly or unknowingly, that's probably how he has always been I think) which I had only read till then, still he could immediately again talk in the most modest way ever , so as MSK said, he probably could be good or bad, but definitely little eccentric, as many have known about him thro' media.

Now personally despite his creativity, talent and contribution to TFM and being a hero for some , Idealistic person for some, and a special position in my own personal life, I have always thought people in film industry are corrupted in one way or other, some even unknowingly because of being either too naive or some one else around them running their show ( this could be the case in IR too)

Fr.Jegath, I have had few phone conversations and met personally once in Chennai, he seems to be ( he is actually one, atleast for me) very well learned man but certainly me and many others would agree that he really put a llot of his personal time, efforts and money ( I am not sure how much or in what all forms, unless he shares that info in a public domain, he doesn't have to, but to be a honest way in making everybody believe with true figures), on the same note, me and many would agree that his or TM's experience in bringing a musical project from the time of conception to reaching people, is probably zero, they do not have prior experience , ( For people asking, not everybody has prior experience in starting a project, yes that is true, and because of this lack of experience the success rate and other outcomes will be definitely different than those with experience), with this big deficiency, the whole project attempt which in itself is first of it's kind in many ways,
1. project thro' donations from public ( OK with me , but the organizers need to be accountable, and I disgaree with MSK about the analogy with Khatrina or Tsunami funds etc, if it is a genuine charity org. they are totally transparent to everybody whether one donates or not, atleast in US and few other countries, and there are websites to check how the money collected exactly was spent by these organizations and they are monitored by IRS and Feds)
Genuine , I meant Red Cross and many such big ones, but ofcourse there are always scammers all around with any fund raising who play around, fooling with fake identities and giving feds and IRS also a run, most recently there was a practical joke with Khatrina Disaster how more scam artistes appeared on the web collecting funds even faster than feds coming for rescue operations), now if TM wanted to be clean and transparent if not as big as Red Cross, especially with more projects in pipeline, their website should have made every honest attempt to give a better picture from the get go till the project completion, everybody knows what a disaster the updating of the original TIS site was from the beginning, totally unprofessional and lack of experience speaking allover.

2. project funding thro' personal loans ( there might have been similar projects , but the endpoint , outcome, source and objective should be clear to the people doing themselves and to public, since a big share came from public also, in our case neither of them knew all these), again lack of honest and proper sharing of financial transactions is a big big minus. Public wouldn't have worried about personal loans but for just ridiculing depending on their own perception if no public donations were involved.

3. Project ambitions/endpoint totally either misconceived or reported misleadingly thro' media, fund rising events, user groups, forums ( numerous examples, money from project would be spent for futur TM projects, to be spent for IR's International college of Music, to be donated for Tsunami relief ( give me the biggest break here, why make statements when even someone had to make a contract agreement although at a later date under "DURESS", now who should believe this statement about contributing to Tsunami fund or making an agreement under " DURESS", BTW the definition of "DURESS" has too many meanings, one of them being "Constraint by threat" I don't know if KR on one side had a Gun and YSR had a Veecharuvaa on the other hand :roll:


So, TM or Fr.Jegath were too naive ( don't appear by his interactions in the past but appears so thro' his statement now ), in dealing with the agreements or financial transactions or copyrights thinking IR as a Saint or had some personal vested interests ( vested interests I mean both good and bad)
Some queries/comments for fr. Jegath's statement,

1."Reasons, I don’t intend to discuss in public" it's fine but it's like making a statement to tell people I don't wAnt to make a statemnet in public.
Due to lack of legal documentations at several stages probably he is in a position " mellavum mudiyame muzhungavum mudiyama", 2."Tamil Maiyam and Ilaiyaraaja Trust are holding joint copy rights, that too only for Tamil." if there was legal copyrights what prevented them in marketing the project in Tamil populated foreign countries Like many parts of Europe, Australia etc, again poor coordination, decisions made this only a dream, despite many volunteers from forum offering expertise in proper marketing ideas, it's too late now that many have illegal copyrights on the MP3 versions.

3."Tamil Maiyam doesn’t have rights for tracks or interpolation in to other languages".
why and how? If this was the original agreement and TM agreed then, there is no legal or personal accusations whatsoever that can be made on IR.
I remember TISK telling, how they had to cross several hurdles at several stages during the actual Hungary recording and final Sony studios master copying and mixing here in NY
The hungary symphony orchestra space rent and recording facility would'nt allow the thing to happen if the payment didn't happen in a matter of few hours at the last minute, and how a Texas based business man donated a huge amount and the money had to be wire transferred overnight etc...etc... and as many don't know then and now, IR was totally oblivious of the fact that there was a big possibilty of the entire session to have been cancelled due to lack of funds why... why? It wasn't a birthday party surprise cake to IR , what made TM OR TIS-USA to keep these things informed , (if IR also was going to be partner of copyrights) about the financial difficulties, I strongly doubt if TM was clear enough with IR himself with the financial constraints , difficulties and hurdles, for who knows, IR still may be thinking adaan ellam public money yai thane selavu pannanga, Welgate panam samadhichi TM kku kudutha enna kudukkalenne enna?
4."The agreement was signed under duress as IR had total control and possession of the tracks."
Phleaa...se, how come IR had total control, if every penny at Sony studio, Hungary , Bombay were being paid by TM presumably.

Anyway, instead of using words like " transcending" etc., If TM believes strongly with proper documentations legally they still can Tarnish IR's image for good reasons, if there is only any legal evidence that IR directly was the cause for the monetary losses , which I doubt given the scenario that TM as agreed for these eventualities not forseeing them.

Kiru, I can visit ur yahoo group, but what good the user group in itself would do, if nothing is transparent except for making statements with heavy language.

MSK and Kavin can't agree more with many of your posts.

Rajasaranam,
If u strongly believe with complete and clear picture of the entire financial , copyright agreements, first and foremost u probably can do is call a press meet thro' TM or yahoo user group and bring the whole issue to the public again If there is any grounds at all,
athaivida innum venumna, irukkave irukku "sunTv" who can easily take a sweet revenge against IR's recent Jaya Tv association , TIS-USA has all the fundraising events video clippings with all those nice , humble, innocent talks of IR ( I believed him then , I still believe, because I don't have anything transparent not to believe )

lastly personal question, ungalukku Kadavuzh, nambikkai illada kaaranathaal, I see u fuming about IR's contribution to "Mookambikai's" donation, what irks u in this regard, would u have been happy if same IR had contributed same 27 lakhs towards " AIDS prevention or some such cause.
In late 80's , after Armenia Earthquake, IR thro's minimally publicised concerts in TN contributed close to 1 crore and this was in many many news media.
If there is a foul play in the entire event from IR's side, it is yet to be proven, about all those who are breathing heavy, not able to dust, or listen to IR's music after this entire unestablished discussions, I think some Dfers have already answered it including rajsaranam, BTW, I didn't know Avvaiyyar drank Kallu... super pa(r)tti ya irundurukkum poleye, it's the music u beleive in not the creator.



Prabhudas

"MSK and Kavin can't agree more with many of your posts. "

so you actually agree with Kavin that TM has to pay royalty to IR? Because thats what he said.

"I have always thought people in film industry are corrupted in one way or other, some even unknowingly because of being either too naive or some one else around them running their show"

classic chappakattu. How can a person get "unknowingly" corrupt or can be so "naive" to get corrupted? How can IR be naive and business-like, cutthroat-like at the same time?
In this case no one surrounding IR was running the show. He was directly involved.

I guess Tamilmayyam should have secretly sold all the rights not trusting IR right from the beginning. Because thats what some of you guys are accusing them of - of being sincere. here "naive" is used to replace "sincere". I guess if TM had pre-empted IR into getting all the rights and left IR in deep debt it would have been interesting to see your reactions. Will you accuse IR of being "naive" then and ignore everything? will you say Fr.Gasper was "unknowingly corrupted" and that it was IR's fault that he wasnt business-like or opportunistic?

viyajr, thanks for enlisting support for my views. but no thanks. some people in this forum will be able to discern what is truth and what is non-sensical in my posts. while some of the posts of mine were meant to humor you, some extremist statements were also meant to pull the pendulum towards the centre, when the opinions tended to be one sided.

prabhudas and MSK's posts make better sense to me. TISK as usual hides behind someone elses posts, advising people not to respond to me with stock statement YIA. He still has not come out with explanations to specific questions which only he can answer. If he is campaigning in a public forum, then he should be aware that questions will be asked from skeptics. if his intention is to give out partial truths and get few people to part with their money, then he should be aware that there will be some who will question his intentions so that some of those who are willing to give him the money are in a better position to decide for themselves.

rather than seeing it as two individuals IR and Fr Gaspar, lets discuss this from the perspective of two organisations. Tamil Mayam and IR traditional music art and cultural trust (the Trust).

Shall we say that these two organisations with different agenda came together to make Thiruvasagam? TM had tamil culture and tamil social agenda while the Trust with heavy leanings in music. Both are relatively unknown organisations IR provided the public image.

In a partnership between these two organisation what to they give each other. IR gives his creative ability and TM promised to generate funds and awareness for this project. What did either organisation expect out of this. I suppose expectation were unlimited because the idea had huge potential.

IR's Trust besides making money from TIS also will look for recognition as an organisation of substance and promise in traditional music. The Trust can in future approach other potential donors for funds based on the finished product of TIS.

TM firstly will be looking at spreading its wings with all the tamils abroad, since the project gives them credibility to approach people and show them what TM can achieve. Producing TIS is not the end, but what they can subsequently achieve is more important. Such as connecting rural tamilnadu with computer network, YMCA kind of organisation throughout the world and many more such ambitious projects. How they come out in helping TIS is important.

Well what was the outcome? TIS did not shake the world as expected. It was a mediocre though unique album. It did not live up to its hype. People recieved it with mixed reaction. It did not have the potential to make huge sums of money maybe in long term it may but that is not good enough for either organisation. The prerelease hype and marketing ensured that it didn't go into oblivion.

Since the production was not by any music labels, Sony and Saregama could only be approached for distribution. Since they did not produce it their commitment to TIS would have been limited. It would have been a case of release and sit on them. Again this was not good enough for either organisation. TM has no experience in music production and hence it is unlikely to understand this, while IR's Trust has many years of experience with music industry.

Since it did not make as much money as expected, the two organisations are trying to share the spoils and both are unhappy and putting blame on each other. Which happens in loss in business, each one trying grab whatever little they can.

TM as an organisation, will move on to their agenda, which is more social change than music. They will continue their relationship with tamils abroad for support for their future projects. IR's Trust will have to continue its mission in music and it has only TIS to work on till another comes along. Hence statements like, God willing more such projects.

TM is trying to retain its well wishers by coming out as victims in this association.

I see TIS-USA as a partner of TM rather than IR's Trust. TM is accountable to TIS-USA. TIS-USA will dissolve soon and the individuals concerned are likely to become TM's arm in USA which should be encouraged and supported to continue with their vision.

Quote:

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so you actually agree with Kavin that TM has to pay royalty to IR? Because thats what he said.

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What answer do u need as u have framed a question out of ur own imagination and assumption,
Need to read posts carefully as opposed to obssessively keep replying , I said many of their posts again I said many of their posts, that doesn't mean I agreed with every post :wink:

Quote:

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classic chappakattu. How can a person get "unknowingly" corrupt etc....

---

chappakattum illae Maavu Kattum ille, go read Fr.'s statement , remember there was a auditor for IR, there are people like auditor, managers and what not who all can play a role.
When IR auditor had to say that, why not TM auditor ? TM agreed for some vague reasons, yes very vague reasons, u can't have a business in this way , no chance... dosen't it glare so obviously there are some more reasons why the whole agreement issue had to happen under "DURESS", and what are those reasons, not just releasing the album to get name but also to get the money
( personal loans) invested back also and probably many other.


[quote] I guess Tamilmayyam should have secretly sold all the rights not trusting IR right from the beginning."
U can guess 1000 things and feel free to infer yourself as it's ur guesses

[/quote "Because thats what some of you guys are accusing them of - of being sincere. here "naive" is used to replace "sincere". I guess if TM had pre-empted IR into getting all the rights and left IR in deep debt it would have .... [/quote

I am not accusing nobody ( Brooklyn style), I made my personal comment, if someone else is accusing, do a thesis and ask them more questions :D , I didn't find anybody accusing TM personally, all who have made comments have told that there is no appropriate legal documentation to begin with or at any stage or even at the time of marketing, it will not hold water
If IR was in that situation, adhe kadhai daan, "Govinda Govinda", Engeppa Raasa, un Auditor enge ponaru, paperle appadi sollaliye, appo avvalodaan....nnu kadhai close panniruppanga, and because of IR's nonmedia friendly attitude even media couldn't have done anything unless he used some political or celebrity connection
BTW, don't u believe that at some point of their career (mostly during the initial carreer) not just IR many many people in film business would have had situation where producer cheated or didn't pay money etc etc..., believe me it happened then, it happens now, it will happen forever till the legalities are properly taken care of ,
and in instances where there are political connections and public clout because of their popularity and influence, many of these are settled thro' mediators, say some big brother acting as a mediator or using power or some big celebity interfering etc...etc.

Lastly, if there was no personal loans involved in this entire project, does anybody think, TM would have bothered even a bit about losses, yeah.. right, project mundijichu, public fund le, Rajavukku peru kidaichuchu, TM kkum peru kidaichuchu, Welgate panam panna enna innoruthen panam panna enna nnu adutha projectle loss aagama panam eppadi panna mudiyum nnu yosichiruppanga ( panam not for themselves to TM organisation) , TM panna pannirunda, they might or might not have anounced too.

"Need to read posts carefully as opposed to obssessively keep replying.I said many of their posts again I said many of their posts, that doesn't mean I agreed with every post"

and you need to think before obsessively making jalra comments for IR. Because Kavin was actually defending his royalty comment in "many" of his posts, not just one post.


"go read Fr.'s statement , remember there was a auditor for IR, there are people like auditor, managers and what not who all can play a role. "

yeah right, as if IR didnt know what his own auditor was doing. auditor is there to take care of the formalities/paperwork, thats all.the orders come from IR.


"If IR was in that situation, adhe kadhai daan, "Govinda Govinda", Engeppa Raasa, un Auditor enge ponaru, paperle appadi sollaliye, appo avvalodaan....nnu kadhai close panniruppanga"

yeah but you would have come here and bashed TM left and right and atleast expressed your sympathy for IR, being a fanatic yourself. Thats what some people here are doing now, but for TM. And some of them include hardcore IR fans.

Guys..most of you here are like my friends..some more closely as I have been in touch with you over email. We all have one thing in common. We love the music of IR. That said..I see the situation as below..

Everybody involved, mainly Father and TISK, were totally in awe of IR and completely trusted IR. Because of this reason, they paid the expenses without getting anything in writing before hand that this would be a production of TM-TIS-USA and that they hold all possible copyrights. This should have been done atleast the first time they paid IR some money (I think 5 lakhs ?). This kind of trust-based interaction is atleast fine (personally I think not) when you are dealing with personal money but totally objectionable when dealing with public money. From the beginning, many people were asking for transparency in accounting (as Prabhudas mentions) and for TISK and Father to ignore this, is probably, they were drunk with the joy/arrogance of associating with a person of the stature of IR.
This is a lesson to all of us (as many were trying to impress upon myself) that skill in an art is different from personal integrity and moral character.
It is not that the Father felt betrayed, it is I and fans like me as well. We believed IR is a spiritual person, loves tamil and music and wants to do something for the good education of the youth of our culture. But it all seems like an exercise to satisfy ones and possibly make profit leveraging other people's efforts and public money.
Please note, I still trust and respect the Father and TISK, inspite of the naivete (sorry sirs, I have to say this) but this cannot be said of IR, anymore. I am really sad when I write this.

Prabhudas, please join the group, as TISK hinted, we have to make IR, who is silent, talk on this, someway or other. The group could come up with ideas for this.

"TM panna pannirunda, they might or might not have anounced too"

Prabhudas,
This shows a lack of trust on the Father. Is there something else we need to know ? Are you saying that TM and TIS-USA are trying to find a scapegoat for their own inefficiency in breaking even on this project ?
Do you think the choice of Wellgate was innocous and that there was no 'kickback' involved in the deal ? I am thinking the insistence on Wellgate and themselves being producer of TTLS as an incriminating evidence in this 'Bofors of the film music world' scandal. I am waiting to be proven wrong.

Kiru,

I did not want to talk on this further, but i think i will do it one more time to bring back relevance to this thread. The last resort for me will be to obstain from this forum for some time until the thread's relevance returns.

Shows the lack of

#1.Complete information

and questions the

#2. Need for us to even speculate/discuss/get involved given in this affair which is clearly between the parties involved ( Tm/IR/whoever else is invloved )-especially given #1.

#3. I am assuming that you are not a part of TiS-USA other than being a donor like me. If you are an office bearer of TiS-USA/TM/IR Trust etc, you should be taking this thru the right channel ( legal/Patent office/Copyright channels/Better Busines Bureau etc..) and not cry foul in this public forum which is for discussing music and related subjects and not about the biz affairs of the artists and their associates/biz groups. I could care less about the troubles of TiS-USA/IR/TM and hundreds of other great organizations like these. They solicited for donations and as a believer i helped them with my donations and bought CD's. There ends my deal !.

PLEASE MOVE THIS DISCUSSION TO SOMEHWERE ELSE or start another thread /yahoo groups etc.. or whatever you like..

Kiru, sorry to say this , but you seem to be overreacting to this and if you so strongly believe take it up legally with TiS-USA/TM and leave all of us alone. I could care less about who cheated who !! The lawyers would love to talk to you ( and get your money ).

Prabhudas, I did not say the Charity orgs are not accountable. I said when I donate money to these organizations, i trust them and do not go cry foul that they misused money etc etc.. If i come to know about such things then i will not donate to them next time. End of matter.. I will not start a Yahoo groups ( Sorry Kiru) to go fight against that Charity. I will blame myself for not checking everything about that org before donating my mnoney and thank God for that lesson and move on in Life. Hope this clarifies.


Cheers
MSK