true roshan, manidhargalin adipadai gunam maaruvadhillai...........adhai naanum unardhaen indha nool-in vayilaga.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Roshan
Printable View
true roshan, manidhargalin adipadai gunam maaruvadhillai...........adhai naanum unardhaen indha nool-in vayilaga.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Roshan
Maddy,
Just as a clarification, my post wasn't in response to your or anybody else's criticism against reservation systems in terms of "fairness." If it boils down to asking how fair the system is to the "quota-less" people, well, I don't have a good answer. I think that much of "unfairness" will be bestowed upon some sect or the other. So, it better be on that sect which is already reasonably well ahead of others overall. I stress on "overall" here, because sweeping all those belonging to a particular sect as "developed" or "forward" is bound to come with its own anomalies. (The key point here is that I'm assuming the existence of caste-based profiling, which is unavoidable for a society that is still coming out of it.)
[About the casteist oppression over the centuries, the way I see it (and, needless to say, I'm open to learning otherwise), it's hard for me to believe that a population of around 3-4% (ok, at worst, it could have been double that in the past) could have been solely responsible for the oppression of the rest of Tamilnadu. But, nevertheless, what's evident is that historically the people who're classified as OC now have had access to all these "facilities" which most others didn't.]
My original point, um, runs in parallel trying to point out why meritocracy by itself is not "truly" fair in these matters -- professional education etc. What Tamilnadu did to professional engineering courses is a good example. The government let in as many private institutions as possible, thus greatly widening the gates for professional courses like engineering, that the whole notion of being exceptionally talented to become an engineer became completely obsolete. As there's an industry which can take all these engineers and is still hungry enough, this was a very good stroke. Not many states did this, and as a result, they don't produce as many engineers as Tamilnadu produces every year. This serves as a great example of how "volatile" the notion of merit is.
There's an alternative explanation to 69% reservation system which I am quite reluctant to bring up here, as it may not seem ethical, but is quite practical. The Tamilnadu goverments' approach to reservation system has been demographical, and that's a major reason for its effectiveness. It's designed in such a way that nobody loses too much in the game. The candidates who fall under OC would, at the maximum, amount to around 12% (well-informed folks may correct me) of the total lot (all the rest have a quota!), and they contest in the open for 31% of seats, as against 100%. This might be termed as "unfair" in a truly fair world where everyone is already "equal," but in a world of palpable inequities, it's still not so bad a deal. This coupled with the way institutions offering professional courses were expanded in TN, made the restrictive deal for the OCs somewhat irrelevant. As per the Indian constitution, more than 50% of seats can't be reserved. This expansion also addressed the issue with 69% reservation -- as per the Indian constitution, reservation can't exceed 50%. Along with this expansion, a proportion of the "newly created" seats (the proportion derived from the overall proportion of OC population in TN) were also allocated to accommodate the "quota-less" people who are denied a seat because of the excess 19% quota, effectively bringing down the actual reservations close to 50%.
>digr.>
Maddy,
As a matter of personal interest, is Saint Raghavendra known to have denounced the caste system? Just curious, as I've not heard about it before.
<end digr.<
Wel said!Quote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
Joe, pls come up with ur views........ofcourse, there will be arguements over it...........ofcourse, it stuck me badly, when someone equates all our successes/hardowrk to backdoor entry........parava illa, i hope u didnt mean "all".............
i dunno, y reservations are always taken as a tool for revenge or atleast thats how its been depicted as..............i understood the real usefullness of reservations when i was 22.....till that time, i thot reservations were a tool to drive us out of the country...........first of all this notion has to be abolished..........
secondly, arguing against reservation in higher education doesent mean one is entirely against reservation or trying to pretend.........
thirdly, concerns about creamy layer, atleast for me, is a genuine one............everyone are equal before law..........we are simply negating this law with reservations.......so, someday we have to uplift all sections and bring a level ground to stop reservations...........if a part of backward sections only keep getting good benefits, then how are we going to see allround upliftment..............and when are we going to stop reservations and when will India be a true liberal nation.....agreed, there is a selfishness on my side, but there is a podhunalam also involved..........
lastly, i request anti-reservation arguementators to be bit open minded in their outlook on villages, reservation etc,,.,...
Joe,
This doesn't mean I am endorsing such a reservation scheme. Only that I am able to see the way it works.
Effectively, this scheme amounts to breaking down the population demographically and allocate suitable quotas for all castes except a select few, for whom reasonable number of open seats are made available. In other words, the situation is not that bad because the "quota-less" candidates contesting for the 31% open seats (which is in reality close to 50%, as one should include the seats added to meet the constitutional limit!) are low. In this manner, the demographical approach works quite well, and I wanted to bring in that aspect into this discussion. (On the other hand, if there were a larger proportion of people contesting for the same proportion of open seats, the problem would have been much graver.)
superb post with statistics equa........but on ground, "247/300 is not enough for admission to colleges but 200/300 is more than enough for admission" still exists....if u have gone thru engg. counselling u'll understand better.........btw, the remaining 31% in TN also includes BC,OBC,SC/ST....i mean they can compete in those seats as well.......but yes, reservations are a must in graduation levels - absolutely no doubts.........
//dig// there are stories on how raghavendra taught shlokas to lowercaste boys, how he accepted mustard seeds from a lower caste person and forced his cooks to cook with that mustard seeds......and ofcourse, he settled in a place that was offered by a muslim king...........but yea, his focus was not reformation but madhwa philosphy......//end dig//
Thanks for your understanding ..Let us not take things personally ..My arguements here also not for my personal benefits .. So far I(or my own family) haven't untilsed the reservation .Either I didn't get any scholorship since my parents were Govt .employess.Quote:
Originally Posted by MADDY
I agree with you to some extend that there are large no of poor people who don't even aware of what banefits they can get ,but few others are utilising it to full extend ..This inbalance should be reduced by focusing more on least educated people from the ground level.
yeah, also, folks have to sacrifice the best college and opt for the next best to get the course of their choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by MADDY
Reservation, though is bit unfair to OC, is the need of the day. Also, creamy layer exclusion has to come in.
The only way to avoid all these ignorance is to provide high quality education for all the ppl free of cost.... Why not a govt try this to see whether it clicks or not... Moreover the inflation rates are skyhigh these days... What will a poor auto driver do to get his son/daughter educated....Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
there has to be some neutralisation... The only way possible is to get everyone educated...
Looking at some of the returns after 20 yrs from many Insurance policies I feel that the inflation rate will be even higher during the coming years...
There must be a way so that all the ppl of India and TN come up in life and are looked upon equally...
Why not give a person quota based admission by checking up with his DAD or MOM's IT returns... So that the govt knows who are all really backward and who are not....Quote:
Originally Posted by sriranga