The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath

Each army consisted of several divisions; the Kauravas had eleven while the Pandavas controlled seven. A new division ("akshauhini") includes 21,870 chariots and chariot-riders, 21,870 elephants and riders, 65,610 horses and riders, and 109,350 foot-soldiers.
At various times during battle, the Supreme Commander could order special formations ("vyuhas"). Each formation had a specific purpose; some were defensive while others were offensive. Furthermore, each formation had specific strengths and weaknesses. The formations were named after the animal or item it resembled as follows:
·Krauncha vyuha- Heron formation
·Makara vyuha- Fish formation
·Kurma vyuha- Turtle formation
·Trishula vyuha- Trident formation
·Chakra vyuha- Wheel or Discus formation
·Kamala vyuha- Lotus formation

Here's a little something on samsaptakas of the Trigartas.

Warriors Sworn to Victory or Death

Thanks a.r. That was very interesting.Even though they knew, they would never be able to kill Arjuna, they still wanted to batlle him till the last.They were the earliest "suicide squads".

In that site
http://members.cox.net/apamnapat/ent...tadhyumna.html
it is mentioned that Drishtadyumna is killed by ashwatama.Is this true? I thought he will survive the war.can somebody clarify this?

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Originally Posted by viggop

Thanks a.r. That was very interesting.Even though they knew, they would never be able to kill Arjuna, they still wanted to batlle him till the last.They were the earliest "suicide squads".

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Their main objective was to challenge Arjuna and drag him away from the main stream war area so that Drona can have an unrestricted access to Yudhistira and capture him alive...

THis was a ploy by Drona ( as Duryodhana wanted Yudhistira to be captured alive )

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Originally Posted by viggop

In that site
http://members.cox.net/apamnapat/ent...tadhyumna.html
it is mentioned that Drishtadyumna is killed by ashwatama.Is this true? I thought he will survive the war.can somebody clarify this?

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Drushtadhyumnan will be killed in the night after the war gets over ( I mean when Duryodhana was down ).. Besides Drushtadyumanan, the sons of Draupadhi will also get killed by Aswathama...

What a wasted life for Drishtadyumna.He was born for taking revenge and his life ended after the objective.

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Originally Posted by viggop

What a wasted life for Drishtadyumna.He was born for taking revenge and his life ended after the objective.

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I too wonder .. I dont see any justification at all for the creation of Drishtadyumnan... As his father had ditched his childhood friend Drona and Drona took revenge and there ended the matter.
The reverse revenge which Durupadha wanted had no justification at all...

Balaji
If you do holy yagas with such objectives such as revenge and vengeance,it will bring destruction only.It'll never turn out to be positive nor will it bring good things to the world.Ravana also did his tapas asking for immortality.But, he did not get it and finally he died causing a lot of deaths.Look at Vibhishana.He did not ask for immoratlity but still got it.

just to extend what you so correctly pointed out.......draupadi who was also born of the yagna ended up childless (her sons were killed by ashvatthama, kripa, and kritavarman after duryodhana was mortally wounded), and indeed indirectly caused the decimation of the kuru race including her own clan (the panchalas).

what comes around goes around...........

dhristhadyumna- born to kill drona............killed
shikhandi-amba reborn to kill bheeshma.......killed


if you ask me the whole story hinges around bheeshmas vow or around shantanu preventing ganga from drowning her eighth child. either way the events triggered off seem to inevitably lead to the division and ultimate ruin of the dynasty.

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Originally Posted by dr#

dhristhadyumna- born to kill drona............killed
shikhandi-amba reborn to kill bheeshma.......killed .

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Did everyone else become immortal, that one specifically points out only to Shikandi or Dristadyumna?

Bheesma wasn't born to destroy anyone - he too died!
Drona wasn't born to anyone - he too died!
Ultimately, everyone died, did they not?

These things happen for a purpose. One cannot hope to find morals for everything!

drona and bheeshma died in battle according to their dharma.....and to their expectations.

the ones i mentioned died ignobly, and panchali lost her children causing her great suffering. i just wanted to further illustrate that ill curses tend to backfire on the protagonists......well except drupada who ironically did die in battle.

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Originally Posted by dr#

drona and bheeshma died in battle according to their dharma.....and to their expectations.

the ones i mentioned died ignobly, and panchali lost her children causing her great suffering. i just wanted to further illustrate that ill curses tend to backfire on the protagonists......well except drupada who ironically did die in battle.

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Panchali lost her children causing her great suffering! Did all the other mothers whose children died in the battle, enjoy that? They too suffered, didn't they? Then why only point out Panchali? The fact is these things happen for a reason! One cannot go into the pros and cons or the morals of every act!

i suppose so

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Originally Posted by dr#

just to extend what you so correctly pointed out.......draupadi who was also born of the yagna ended up childless (her sons were killed by ashvatthama, kripa, and kritavarman after duryodhana was mortally wounded), .

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No No it was Aswathama who killed all Pandavas children while Kriparcharya and Kritivarma were on guard, while aswathama were killing the children in the tent, while they were sleeping. Lord Krishna will this was going to happen, so he will take Pandavas to do some sort of Pooja or Yaga.

Yes. Raghu is right. It was Aswatthama who killed the sons of Draupadi while they were fast asleep in their tents. The other two were forced to stand guard while Aswatthama did this. I quote from Srimad Bhagavata:

"When in course of the Mahabharata war the wrriors of the Kaurava and Pandava hosts had allen like heroes and when Duryodhana (son of Dhrtarastra) had hsi thigh broken by a stroke of the mace dealt by Bhima (who had the appetite of a wolf) Aswatthama (the son of Drona) severed the heads of Draupadi's sons while they were asleep and presented them to Duryodhana--an act which he imagined would please his master (Duryodhana) but which really proved most distasteful to him since everbody would strongly condemn such an odious act." (Srimad Bhagavata, Book One, Canto 7, Sloka 13-14)

Duryodhana was lying with his broken thighs in the battlefield. He was alive, undergoing all the pain and suffering of death for more than two days. In the meanwhile, Aswatthama went to him and asked him to be announced as Commander in Chief, in order to fight with the Pandavas who were alive. Duryodhana consented. But he did not expect this kind of foul play. He was clearly displeased and dismayed with Aswatthama.

Mr. Harikrishnan,

I understand while Duryodhana was down after he was hit on his thighs… he will chide Krishna and the pandavas by pointing out all the negative tactics used by them to eliminate their main rivals…. And while he completes his chiding… with the words…. I LIVED LIKE A KSHATRIYA… AND I AM GOING TO DIE LIKE A TRUE KSHATRIYA….
As soon as he uttered those words, I heard the Devas will shower him with flowers…. And it happened twice in that moment….. and this will make Krishna and the entire pandavas totally ashamed….
Besides, Krishna will admit that what Duryodhana said was correct, Pandavas could never have won the Kauravas through normal war methods and only by negative tactics, could have defeated…

Can you pls enlighten us on this ..

When Duryodhana was lying for 2 days, somebody could have attempted to cure him and make him fight again? After all, breaking the thighs does not mean death? Does he die because of loss of blood ? Why did not Bhishma kill him immediately , like say crushing his head etc. after breaking his thighs. Sorry for such silly questions but i'm curious to know.

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Originally Posted by viggop

When Duryodhana was lying for 2 days, somebody could have attempted to cure him and make him fight again? After all, breaking the thighs does not mean death? Does he die because of loss of blood ? Why did not Bhishma kill him immediately , like say crushing his head etc. after breaking his thighs. Sorry for such silly questions but i'm curious to know.

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Viggop,

The wound which Duryodhana got from Bheema was not only on his thighs ... but also on other parts of the body and it was a deadly blow.. Remember besides, the thighs were BROKEN.... How he can get cured in such a case ??? He was physically dead.. clinically alive... Had some breath to talk to Aswathama and give final instructions...

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Originally Posted by viggop

When Duryodhana was lying for 2 days, somebody could have attempted to cure him and make him fight again? After all, breaking the thighs does not mean death? Does he die because of loss of blood ? Why did not Bhishma kill him immediately , like say crushing his head etc. after breaking his thighs. Sorry for such silly questions but i'm curious to know.

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As Balaji rightly pointed out, this kind death is slow. It is something similar to dying on the crucifix. Jesus was crucified by about 9 in the morning and gave up the ghost by about 3 pm. It takes an even longer time some times. I have to give an entire description of the process.

You know, with the hands raised up, spread and nailed, the lungs get constricted and breathing is restricted. Therefore, the person on the cross would try to stand erect so that the lungs may relax and function properly. He cannot stand like that with one foot nailed on the other, for a long time and his knees would buckle, making his hands hang from the cross, which would once again constrict or squeeze the lungs, as the rib cage would narrow down in such a posture. The process goes on and on. And therefore, the legs are broken at the knee joints when being crucified, so that the person cannot use his legs to stand erect. This quickens death and minimises the suffering.

Similarly, Duryodhana fell down with the blow on his thighs. He could no longer stand. Obviously, he would have been wounded with the blows of Bhima on other parts too. But breath was still running. He could see others, speak with them etc.

Even natural death is a very slow process, which most of us do not notice. Excepting in the cases of massive heart attacks and haemorrhages, natural death takes a minimum of five to six hours. I was with my father and my mother during their last hours, sensed they are sinking and watched the process. Sorry for the digression. But I just thought of sharing another information. :-)

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Originally Posted by S.Balaji

Mr. Harikrishnan,

I understand while Duryodhana was down after he was hit on his thighs… he will chide Krishna and the pandavas by pointing out all the negative tactics used by them to eliminate their main rivals…. And while he completes his chiding… with the words…. I LIVED LIKE A KSHATRIYA… AND I AM GOING TO DIE LIKE A TRUE KSHATRIYA….
As soon as he uttered those words, I heard the Devas will shower him with flowers…. And it happened twice in that moment….. and this will make Krishna and the entire pandavas totally ashamed….
Besides, Krishna will admit that what Duryodhana said was correct, Pandavas could never have won the Kauravas through normal war methods and only by negative tactics, could have defeated…

Can you pls enlighten us on this ..

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Yes. The last hours of Duryodhana are quite moving. Bheema kicks him on his cheeks and his head. Dharma chides him for doing this. Duryodhana tells him at that time. 'Just do not mind it. In a few more hours dogs, wolves and foxes are going place their feet on my head. Let him do whatever he wants.'

And then, he says, 'What I ruled was the very swarga. What is there for you to rule over? Go and be the king of the graveyard! (pOi sudu kAttai aaLungada!)

It is a very long debate. Those last moments were moving, no doubt. What he says is right. It is doubtful if Bheema could have won if Duryodhana was not beaten on his thighs. It is not that Bheema was any less adept with the mace. Duryodhana anticipated this moment ever since Pandavas went on exile and was training himself with the mace, with a steel statue of Bheema. He was practising every day; whereas Bheema's practice was not that intense. You know why the rabbit is faster than the lion. In the Aesop fable, the lion wonders how could this rabbit run so fast, faster than its own self. The rabbit answers, 'You are running for the sake of getting a meal for saving yourself from hunger; I am running for the sake of saving my life.'

All the other points that you observe are there in the text. It is really moving. But Krishna gives every word of Duryodhana back. Do you think that he would remain silent at such an unjustifiable stance? If it was wrong for Bheema to beat him with the mace on the thighs, the history of adharma of Duryodhana starts from their boyhood, from poisoining Bheema as a lad, from attempting to burn all the five Pandavas and Kunti in the house of lac.... it is a very long stream of unrighteous deeds, which ended up with one blow on the thigh.

This needs a prolonged discussion. This question cannot be answered in a short two-three para long reply. Every bit of an argument, point of view, and every line of thought in the Epic has got its own validity, its own strength and at times its own weakness. Every character is just as human as we are. That is why both the epics remain unquestionaly great, over thousands of years.

Dear Mr. Harikrishnan,

Thank you very much for the information on the final moments of Jesus..another great Messenger of God... Amazing is your thorough knowledge and reading and understanding of the subject...
Thank you again for sharing your personal experience also...
Nice explanation of the process ...

YOU HAVE BROUGHT VALUE AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE DF.... Please continue your great work....

Dear Mr.HariKrishnan Sir
Thanks for the clarification about duryodhana's death.The final moments of Jesus Christ which you have described are really painful to even read.:-(
Why does the human mind think of such cruelties to other human beings.:-(

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Originally Posted by viggop

Dear Mr.HariKrishnan Sir
Thanks for the clarification about duryodhana's death.The final moments of Jesus Christ which you have described are really painful to even read.:-(
Why does the human mind think of such cruelties to other human beings.:-(

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Viggop,

I have not gone in detail. What I have written on the last hours of Jesus is just about 20%.

Bible is my favourite too. The wealth of lterature belongs to humanity. As far as it is handled with respect. No single community can lay absolute right or claim over it.

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Originally Posted by Hari Krishnan

I have not gone in detail. What I have written on the last hours of Jesus is just about 20%.

Bible is my favourite too. The wealth of lterature belongs to humanity. As far as it is handled with respect. No single community can lay absolute right or claim over it.

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Please go ahead with the balance 80%. It seems some hubbers here are capable of writing a historically inaccurate stories in to a perfect time scale recrds, even in hour basis. I accept these are good literature (only in literature point of view). I hope you might have read the all the parts of these kind of holy books. Please explain the balance. I will join little later.

[quote="r_kk"]

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Originally Posted by Hari Krishnan

Please go ahead with the balance 80%. It seems some hubbers here are capable of writing a historically inaccurate stories in to a perfect time scale recrds, even in hour basis. I accept these are good literature (only in literature point of view). I hope you might have read the all the parts of these kind of holy books. Please explain the balance. I will join little later.

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I can sense the sarcasm over there. I am not visiting the ForumHub to while my time away exchanging words on who is right and who is not; or to judge the historical accuracy of any particular incident; or to bandy words. I am just sharing whatever came in my way and whatever I learnt, appreciated, enjoyed.

Number one. This is a thread on Mahabaratha. It was just incidental that I referred to a parallel from Bible. I had my reservations while doing so. Now, here is the result. :-)

When I said I have written only 20% of what I know, I was trying to tell Viggop that this incident is even more moving. Period.

Number two. I am not for throwing challenges and for picking up the gauntlet. Let the gauntlet lie as it is there. No problem. :-) I don't consider this issue worth another word.

Number three, please excuse me. Or you may even like to forgive me, if you so please. I do not have time for quarrels. As I said already, I have better things to do.

Dear HariKrishnan Sir
Let us continue on Mahabharatha in this thread as you say.Though I understood your intentions when you explained the heart wrenching incident in Bible,some people might misinterpret it.

Viggop:

I have been a Hubber from year 1999. I was confining myself to Tamil Literature section, though. Though I have never been interested in Indian History thread - in those days that is to say - I joined these two threads on the Epics just because of the keen interest evinced here and just because I thought I have something to contribute.

If something is perceived to be inaccurate, let that be stated openly, instead of baiting me. I know that the question is about what I had stated (9 am and 3 pm). That's how it is described in books by respected authors. When I say that Duryodhana was lying in Samantha Panchaka, with his thighs broken, for two days, and if I am asked to substantiate, I can quote chapter and verse from Mahabaratha or Srimad Bhagavata. In a similar manner, if a question is raised on the veracity of what I have written, I can understand that. I am either going to substantiate, or say 'I don't know; I know only this much.' There ends the matter. I don't see a purpose behind pulling me into an unwarranted challenge. :lol: I am not interested in quarrels and this fish is seasoned enough not to bite a bait. :lol:

If at all I can contribute something positive, I would unhesitatingly and very happily come forward. And that's that. Thank you Viggop.

Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

For all the sins that he had committed on Pandavas ( and various adharmas ) , ultimately Duryodhana reaches Swargam only ( which is normally assigned for Punya aathmaas ) ….. What is the justification for this ?? Is it because he died like a true Kshatriya in battlefield …. Or any other reason… I am not able to understand this…… Pls enlighten us…
And also the shower of flowers which the Devas did to him ….

Pl enlighten us on this…..

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Originally Posted by S.Balaji

Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

For all the sins that he had committed on Pandavas ( and various adharmas ) , ultimately Duryodhana reaches Swargam only ( which is normally assigned for Punya aathmaas ) ….. What is the justification for this ?? Is it because he died like a true Kshatriya in battlefield …. Or any other reason… I am not able to understand this…… Pls enlighten us…
And also the shower of flowers which the Devas did to him ….

Pl enlighten us on this…..

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Dear Balaji AnNe


Ok let me try, Harikrishnan sir, pls correct be if I am wrong.

Duryodhana had only 3 negative aspects with him,

1) Deceit
2) Jealousy
3) disrobing of Draupadai

It was Duryodhana's jealousy over Pandavas that led to war, but his brain was shakuni, Duryodhan was a puppet for Shakuni, and he had NEVER used any Yuth Adharma in the war, where else pandavas NEVER respected or followed Yuth Dharma, and he did fight till the last breath of air!

But Pandavs on other hand always used adharma to win the war, in cases of Karna, Drona and Bheesma !

besides your Moksha alias Mukti is not calculated on this birth ,here I am talking about the Atma within Duryodhana , this atma has gone through many transmigrations of bodies, along with it, it carried all its Karma, be it good deeds or bad deeds, so according to his karma his atma has attained mukti, perhaps Duryodhana's atma has done more good deeds than evil, similar to Pandavas, so we cannot say that, Duryodhana was evil and how come he attained Mukti, these all depend on Poorve Genma Karma!

ellam avan seyal

Om NamShivaya

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Originally Posted by Hari Krishnan

I can sense the sarcasm over there. I am not visiting the ForumHub to while my time away exchanging words on who is right and who is not; or to judge the historical accuracy of any particular incident; or to bandy words. I am just sharing whatever came in my way and whatever I learnt, appreciated, enjoyed..

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Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,
First of all I am not against you or any one writing here. I am against the concepts of converting or justifying myths through scientific or historical data. I accept MB is a great epic and uncomparably good literature. As long as it is discussed in that aspect, I never even bother to interfere. If some one says, a human can hold the so-called soul as per his wish even after his major life supporting organs were pierced by multiple number of arrows, I have no option except placing my views, even if you compare it with a better altered so-called historical evidences with accurate time scales.

Please go ahead....

Mr r_kk,

Thanks for your views. What I have written on Duryodhana is supported by the actual text from Vyasa Bharata and Srimad Bhagavata, It is not I who say that Duryodhana was lying there for two days, but Vyasa and Suka. Therefore your allegation should most properly be levelled against them and not against me.

Speaking of the last moments, if at all interested, please go through the words of Satyavan (Savithri) that Vysa gives, narrating all the symptoms and the pain that he is going through. He speaks of 'his head being pierced with thousands of nails at the same time; profuse sweating; pain on the back and chest.' Anyone who reads this portion can see what Satyavan was describing was nothing other than a heart attack.

May be, heart attack is a recent development and did not exist during the time of MB.

Every kind of view is welcome, as far as I am concerned. It is a free for all forum. But every freedom comes with its limitation. Why at all should I write the balance 80% for somebody to come and examine later! Am I taking some university exam or what!

I am presenting certain facts, support them with textual evidence and give an appropriate interpretation, from my point of view. How I do it is my business. If the interepretation is not convincing, yes, please go ahead and say why you think it is not convincing. Or raise a question on its validity. Sarcasm and veiled threats won't help in any manner.

Mr Hari Krishnan! That was by far the most level-headed statement made on this Hub in a long time.

Personally, I have great respect for r_kk's sensible views, but the superb way in which you demonstrate your total lack of interest in getting into any argument is laudable.

And besides, r_kk, faith is a personal prerogative! If one man is willing to believe that a man can hold on to his life for as long as he wants, or that a woman could wage a war with death and bring back her husband to life, it is Faith. Not all logic in this world can pierce that faith, and as such, it is a wholly unnecessary and unwarranted intrusion for anyone to cast any aspersions on that faith.

I do agree that you are extremely sensible in your views. And it is also clear that you do not subscribe to many views expressed in this or similar threads. That being the case, it is best if those that believe are left to their belief! There is no gain for either party in trying to do anything about the other.

And I think Mr Hari Krishnan's superb example is worthy of being emulated.

With this note, I hope all digressions will once again be ended, and we can resume discussing the epic and its stories.

Mr. Hari,
I thought 9 am - 3pm was your own view. If you would have told the source reference, I wouldn't have asked for the balance 80%. I thought raising comments on 20% may not be worthwhile.

Any way, let me stop here and allowing this discussions to flow.

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Originally Posted by r_kk

Mr. Hari,
I thought 9 am - 3pm was your own view. If you would have told the source reference, I wouldn't have asked for the balance 80%. I thought raising comments on 20% may not be worthwhile.

Any way, let me stop here and allowing this discussions to flow.

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Here are excerpts from The Bible:

"And straightway in the morning the Chief preists held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate." (Testament according St. Mark, Chapter 15, Verse 1)

"And it was the third hour and they crucified him." (Ibid, Verse 25)

"And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour." (Ibid, Verse 33)

""And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying E-lo'i, E-loi, la'ma sa-bach-tha-n-' which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" (Ibid, Verse 34)

Since he was brought to Pilate "in the morning" (first verse) the calculations of the 'first hour' and other references to hours, commence from 6 am in the morning, which is believed to be the first hour, when the sun rises.

Therefore, third hour is 9 am, the sixth hour is 12.00 noon and the ninth hour is 3 pm. This is the prevalent view.

If you 'thought' this was my view, I would better have been asked why I hold that view. Or the basis for what I say. Instead, you asked me to write the balance 80%. In what way would that substantiate what I had expressed in the first place? And then the question took a U turn and criticised an incident which was not discussed at all. The event that is mentioned in your second post refers to Bheeshma, which was not the point of discussion, at least for now.

And now you say that commenting on the first 20% is not worthwhile. Beautiful.

Now I have given the basis for what I wrote. I would not have done this, because I respect the purpose behind the thread. However, if people prefer to indulge in nit-picking, I have to throw the cards on the table, open for everyone to see.

I hope this matter stands clarified here, if at all it was clarification which was sought for, as it appears to be, on the surface. Shall we stop the discussion of Bible and Jesus in this thread, with this?

Yes.Let us continue on Mahabharatha in this thread.Why did Duryodhana find a place in heaven? I read that Yudishtra was so surprised to see him there.Yudishtra is supposed to have entred heaven with his body itself.

Dear Mr. Harikrishnan,

We have gained a lot from your valuable postings including the posting on Jesus....
Requesting you to enlighten us on Mahabaratha .....

Pl post on the justification for Duryodhana attaining the Swarga....

Thank you Balaji and Viggop. In fact, I started writing my view on the point raised by you last night, and was diverted mid-way. The point is not easy of answering in a short form. Give me time for a day or two. Let me think of how to present the subject. Or we can break it into convenient pieces and tackle it.

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Originally Posted by S.Balaji

Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

For all the sins that he had committed on Pandavas ( and various adharmas ) , ultimately Duryodhana reaches Swargam only ( which is normally assigned for Punya aathmaas ) ….. What is the justification for this ?? Is it because he died like a true Kshatriya in battlefield …. Or any other reason… I am not able to understand this…… Pls enlighten us…
And also the shower of flowers which the Devas did to him ….

Pl enlighten us on this…..

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Dear Balaji AnNe


Ok let me try, Harikrishnan sir, pls correct be if I am wrong.

Duryodhana had only 3 negative aspects with him,

1) Deceit
2) Jealousy
3) disrobing of Draupadai

It was Duryodhana's jealousy over Pandavas that led to war, but his brain was shakuni, Duryodhan was a puppet for Shakuni, and he had NEVER used any Yuth Adharma in the war, where else pandavas NEVER respected or followed Yuth Dharma, and he did fight till the last breath of air!

But Pandavs on other hand always used adharma to win the war, in cases of Karna, Drona and Bheesma !

besides your Moksha alias Mukti is not calculated on this birth ,here I am talking about the Atma within Duryodhana , this atma has gone through many transmigrations of bodies, along with it, it carried all its Karma, be it good deeds or bad deeds, so according to his karma his atma has attained mukti, perhaps Duryodhana's atma has done more good deeds than evil, similar to Pandavas, so we cannot say that, Duryodhana was evil and how come he attained Mukti, these all depend on Poorve Genma Karma!

ellam avan seyal

Om NamShivaya can some one validate my point here???

Dear HariKrishnan Sir

Please take your own time.But do explain how Duryodhana got into heaven.I think he must have sepnt sometime in hell too like all the Pandavas(except yudishtra).The concept of hell and heaven are somewhat confusing to me in Hindu context.We have the cycle of birth and death and that cycle ends only when we get Moksha.Moksha is merging with Brahmam or Shivam or Vishnu etc.So, does this this heaven mean being merged with Brahmam?Oncemerged, there is no seprate identity of a individual soul(jivatma),right? so, how come yudishtra has body too in heaven? Or maybe, this heaven is just another planne of existence and people in heaven too have to strive for moksha? I think i'm getting confused by reading various philosophies.:-(