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IR relies on his creativity and talent. I don't think the current MD's would even stand a chance at those times with minimal technology.
Now current MD's are surviving because of technology. They are able to cleverly steal others work, modify them as much as possibe to avoid being 'seen'.
so, the talent for them is how clever they are in cloaking themselves.
To this day, to me, IR is the greatest composer on earth.
to call "entha poovilum" or "aha vanthudichi" as plagiarism is sheer stupidity and ignorance. In both cases (and most other cases where there are "similarities"), the song applies to a different situation/mood. It is very nicely adapted, to be a tribute to the "copied" tune while bringing in an original viewpoint. Using the humming for a comical situation or building an Indian folk song over a spanish classical dance piece is sheer originality in art. What really defines it is the additional original stuff in the song, not the little bit that is reproduced. There are other composers who "reproduce" complete songs, devoid of any original contribution.
Would anyone here say that "And we had a talk" from HTNI is a "copy"? But the same ppl who call the above songs a copy would also call this one a copy. The only reason they don't is because they are too ignorant and stupid to know there was someone called Bach and that he composed such a piece.
ananth222, while I do understand what you are implying here, it does bug me that IR shd have taken even the first two lines of some of these tracks - not that his stature as a genius is in question, but it does leave a certain bad taste in my mouth - cant explain it
Why? IMO, starting a pallavi with the danza tune and developing it into a folkish song is more original than forming tunes in established carnatic raagas formulated 100 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by irir123
I feel that all these "copying" allegations come out of the jubilation of the accuser at having unearthed a similar sounding tune. If someone had heard the original tune first, they'd actually react pleasantly to the innovative adaptation.
'வேண்டாம் ரீமிக்ஸ்… ராஜாவின் ஒரிஜினல் போதும்!'
Quote:
ரீமிக்ஸும் தமிழ் சினிமாவும் பிரிக்க முடியாத சமாச்சாரம் எனும் அளவுக்கு இன்று எல்லாப் படங்களில் ஏதாவது ஒரு ரீமிக்ஸ் பாடல் இடம்பெற்று விடுகிறது.
பெரும்பாலும் இளையராஜாவின் பாடல்களைத்தான் ரீமிக்ஸ் என்ற பெயரில் போட்டு குதறி வைப்பார்கள்.
இதைவிட, அந்தப் பாடலை அப்படியே அதன் ஒரிஜினல் வடிவிலேயே போட்டுவிடலாமே… மனம் குளிர ரசித்துவிட்டுப் போகலாம் என பல ரசிகர்கள் ஏங்கியிருக்கிறார்கள்.
இப்படி ஏங்கியவர்களில் புதிய இயக்குநர் சுந்தரபாண்டியும் ஒருவர் போலிருக்கிறது. தான் முதன்முதலில் இயக்கும் ‘வைகை’ படத்தில் இசைஞானியின்ஒரு இனிய பாடலை அப்படியே அதன் ஒரிஜினாலிட்டி கெடாமல் ஒலிக்கவிட்டு அதற்கேற்ப காட்சிகளை அமைத்துள்ளார் (அந்தப் பாடல் காட்சியை படமாக்கிய இயக்குநரும் சாதாரணமானவரில்லை… அதை மனதில் வைத்துக் கொண்டு படமாக்கியிருந்தால் நல்லது!).
இதுகுறித்து சுந்தரபாண்டி கூறியதாவது:
இசைமேதை இளையராஜாவின் இசையில் ஒரு பாடலை கேட்கும்போதே, முடிவு செய்துவிடலாம், இந்தப் பாடலின் முதலும் முடிவும் இப்படித்தான் இருக்கும் என்பதை. அதை இப்படி அப்படி சின்ன மாற்றம் செய்தால்கூட பாடலின் ஜீவன கெட்டுவிடும். அந்த அளவு கச்சிதமான இசைக் கோர்வைதான் அவரது ஆர்மோனியத்திலிருந்து பிறக்கும்.
ராஜா சாரின் இசையில் ‘அலைகள் ஓய்வதில்லை’ படத்தில் இடம்பெற்ற ‘ஆயிரம் தாமரை மொட்டுக்களே…’ பாடலை, ‘வைகை’ படத்தில் ரீமிக்ஸாக வைக்க நினைத்தோம்.
‘ஆயிரம் தாமரை மொட்டுக்களே…’ பாடலை எப்போது யார் எங்கே கேட்டாலும், பாடல் முடியும் வரை அங்கேயே நின்று கேட்டுவிட்டுத்தான் நகர்வார்கள்.
உலகின் உயர்தரமான எந்த இசைக் கருவிகளைக் கொண்டு மாற்றி இசையமைத்தாலும் கூட இப் பாடலை ரீமிக்ஸ் வடிவில் நம்மால் ரசிக்க முடியாது என்பதே உண்மை.
ராஜாவின் இசையை மீறி எந்த ஒரு சாதனையையும் எங்களால் செய்துவிட முடியாது என்பதால், அவரது பாடலை சிறு சேதாரமும் இல்லாமல் அப்படியே படத்தில் பயன்படுத்தியிருக்கிறோம். ரீமிக்ஸ் என்ற பெயரில் அந்தப் பாடலைக் கெடுக்க விரும்பவில்லை. அதுதான் இந்த மண்ணுக்குப் உலக கவுரவம் தந்த இளையராஜாவுக்கு நாங்கள் செய்யும் மரியாதை…” என்றார்.
A blatant lie :evil:Quote:
அவரது பாடலை சிறு சேதாரமும் இல்லாமல் அப்படியே படத்தில் பயன்படுத்தியிருக்கிறோம்.
Interesting Q&A Irir/Ananth :),
Quote:
Originally Posted by ananth222
:lol: :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by ananth222
ananth222 - its a similar feeling I got when I discovered that some of (the late) Sujatha's and Kamal's movies were blatant inspirations/takeoffs from English novels and movies respectively
its not that either of these men could NOT have done everything entirely original, it sucks when they do NOT acknowledge the original creator in their works (at the time of composing/writing) and later we discover them
in IR's case, the only excuse can be, if the producer/ director asked/insisted IR to compose a tune based on the same and IR had no other choice and had to oblige
irir123,
Your views on films and novels being inspired and you being disappointed is fine. Mostly because the whole film or novel is taken and changes made to suit local taste, but the whole thread is taken from the movie. Case in point could be 9 to 5 and Magalir Mattum.
In case of these songs, I would rather think them to be similar to what many poets / lyricist do. That is, take a couple of lines of another poem and build a new poem / lyrics on that. For example, Gulzar takes Ghalib's couplet, "Ji Doondtha Hai" and then builds his song on that and it is beyond doubt an original song. Similarly, Veturi takes 'Dorakuna Ituvanti Seva' of Tyagaraja and builds his lyrics on that and it is original. I would take these songs in the same fashion.
(If you see the poster who had posted these samples, his intention is clear. I mean if someone can call MSV as 'Copy Cat' and put up a disclaimer when he talking about Rahman's 'inspirations', you can see where is his coming from.)
As dochu says lot of current MDs are masters in hiding their inspirations and also getting their 'inspirations' from far off and not oft heard places like Azerbaijan / Armenia etc. I listened to the links you posted and the other youtube links and could marvel at Raja's talent for seeing something that no one could possibly see. Like 'kadhal vandiduchu' in a hard rock number.
Sureshs65
what would you call this then ?
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f...eada0a1ae8665a
This is from John Williams (the guitarist) classics - Williams playing some famous works - I think IR adapted it for Johnny's main theme!!
but the resemblance is startling!
irir123, the prelude starting notes(probably the first three chords) must have let you feel that it is similar. But come on, that sort of start is prevalent in most WCM compositions. There must be a very strong flow in the song to be considered plagiarised. I can understand that you cannot tolerate plagiarism. But IR does not do blatant stuff.
When it comes to music, the composer must have had some sort of pre-determined influence and style that he comes up with when he composes. IR is affected strongly by bach's style of using sonatas and counterpoints and most of his interludes have atleast three different rhythms playing against each other. If you consider such as plagiarism than thalaivar can go to jail.
I agree on the acknowledgment count. But really, if he acknowledged Antonio Ruiz Pipo for a folk song from "murattu kaalai" starring Rajini, how many people would have got it? I feel he does these things for personal amusement. (IR atleast acknowledged Bach and Thyagaraja in HTNI)Quote:
Originally Posted by irir123
As for similarities in other songs.. you guys should listen to country music. you will say everyone is copying from everyone.
irir123,
I am not trying to claim that songs were not copied. As I had said earlier, there are a few instances where the whole song has been copied. It is just that we need to differentiate between what has been cut and pasted and what has been taken and new structure built upon. Understanding this and accepting the cases where the song was indeed copied does not mean we are diminishing the music of Raja.
What is interesting is that in many cases where you cannot even find the resemblance Raja has openly said where he has adapted it from. (I remember him telling this about an Aboorva Sagodhararal song and a MSV song. There was no way that I would have connected these two. Same thing about 'Inji Idupazhaga' and a S D Burman song)
sigh :-(
My original post (that triggered off the whole copy discussion) was not indented to showcase someone "copying" IR at all.
It was a case of "using" IR's stuff for a commercial ad and wondering whether he gets any proceeds out of that from Saravana stores or ad agency (as IR was at one point of time known as royalty-savvy and a pioneer in getting proper compensation for music makers).
I don't think the ad-maker is claiming it's his original music or anything like that (which is what all these discussions are about).
On a similar topic, those movies that use IR songs liberally as BGM (not the remixes, the originals themselves) don't seem to show any "nanRi" titles.
Does it mean they pay the music companies that own rights to the originals? (siRu ponmaNi in subramaiyapuram, for e.g.)
IR's copies / inspirations / adaptations / acknowledging - non-acknowledging / paying-not paying etc is a different subject altogether.
I remember reading those days that each time AIR plays a film song, the film's producer got one rupee :-) That was as per the agreed terms between AIR & movie producers, as a compensation.
There may be similar arrangements between those having rights and those who use them. For e.g. if Sun TV shows a song, it has possibly paid something to the owner of the original. I was only asking about such industry practices / lack thereof.
I don't mean to continue, but just my 2 c.
irir123 - I can understand what you meant by bad taste after learning IR's flicks from other sources. I was shocked too. but for such a talented guy to do something like that - there must be a reason. Either way with or without reason, considering his accomplishment, I treat it as a drop in an ocean.
In future, who knows, as we advance in technology and information, we'll learn how the current MD's or hiding their 'copying'. Already itwofs sites are pretty good at it.
I think someday, we may advance so much that, there might be a 'google' search wherein you feed a piece of music as mp3 or something and then find similar ones.
People like IR, MSV etc had real talent and did not depend on tech.
Just like irir123 I also feel "let down" when I hear "IR has copied" something. Anyways, this is the first time I got to hear the originals.
My take is - many of the songs are original compositions based on a line or a phrase. My understanding is, this is a genuine/valid exercise in composition - அடி எடுத்து கொடுப்பது whether this is in lyrics or music (though it is like getting a help and so not a truly/wholely individual effort) . The funny thing is that this concept of "creating a composition" itself has become a "endangered art form". Many film songs today the pallavi and charanam are out of character. After IR, only ARR seems to do a good job. For eg. I find lots of "sore thumb"/notes in kaadhal valartheEn (from YSR). In munbe Vaa, I find the ending part ....malli etc not in line with the rest of the tune.
Hey..I am not a music expert, but I dont get this feeling in IRs or MSV or earlier MDs' songs.
That apart, we have gone past the composition of a song kind of world to a "building a song from parts" world. The new MDs are like Product Managers who pick voices, pick chords from a library, or even accept changes in tune from singers. So the current MDs are playing an "integrator" role rather than a "creator" role.
Ultimately, we have to see who is the most creative musician and I think we all dont have any doubts about that on IR, I think.
Listen to Bach's badinerie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVxwuirUX-M
the first few seconds have been used ditto by IR in an interlude. Can you tell which one? And no one has raised the copy allegation on that yet, cos no one has discovered it yet.
Have you heard "Spanish caravan" by The Doors?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JklQQ4f52RY
It uses Albeniz's "Asturias(Layenda)" ditto (and I've never seen an acknowledgment).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfFbuT3I6A
Why isn't anyone crying "copy"??
I feel all this "copy" talk is just a tool for ignorant people to belittle something they don't even understand. It is sad to see knowledgeable people also buying into it. Somehow, people take liberties judging IR in a way they wouldn't dare to do with any other artist of his stature.
ராஜா தனக்குப்பிடித்த வேறொருவரின் இசையை உள்வாங்கி இசை அமைத்தால் அது தவறில்லை. ஆனால் அதே மற்ற இசையமைப்பாளர்கள் செய்தால் தவறு. இந்த அணுகுமுறைதான் பெரும்பாலான ராஜாவின் இசை ரசிகர்களுக்கு இருக்கிறது. சிவாஜியின் நடிப்பை நல்ல நடிப்பென்று ஒரு கூட்டமும், மிகையான நடிப்பு என்று விமர்சனம் செய்யும் ஒரு கூட்டமும் இருப்பதுபோலத்தான் ராஜாவின் இசைப்பாடல்களுக்கு வரும் விமர்சனங்களும். விமர்சனங்களே வரக்கூடாது என்ற தன்மையில் தான் ரஜினி, கமல், ராஜா, ரகுமான் போன்ற புகழடைந்தவர்களின் ரசிகர்களது இணையத்திரிகள் இயங்கி வருகிறது. இதுபோன்ற தனிவழிப்பாட்டு முறை எந்தவிதத்திலும் பலதரப்பட்ட நல்ல விஷயங்களை எடுத்துச்செல்ல, பதிவு செய்யத் தவறிவருகிறது.
ராஜாவே சொல்லிவிட்டார். எம்.எஸ்.வி, ரகுமான் மற்றும் தனது இசையெல்லாம் இசையில் பல்வேறு சுருதிகள் தான் என ராஜாவே சொல்லிவிட்டார். அப்படியிருக்கும்போது, ஏன் இந்த இணையத்தளத்தில் எம்.எஸ்.வி, ராஜா, ரகுமான் போன்ற எல்லோரது இசைப்பாடல்களையும் ஒரே இடத்தில் ஒரே திரியில் நாம் எல்லோரும் பகிர்ந்து கொள்ளக்கூடாது?
THe Bach piece is adapted in the 2nd interlude of 'manjal nilavukku' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj11EyIozaMQuote:
Originally Posted by ananth222
from 3:33 onwards, right ? thats a very short piece and a clear inspiration, but developed well by IR
I can point out several other hidden usages in other IR songs as well - they dont bother me much - for instance, the song"madai thiranthu" sounds a bit like BoneyM's "one way ticket" - the feel is the same, may have been inspired
but the aforementioned pieces in kalyanaraman etc are a different story
I agree with kiru. Music today seems to be more an integration thing than composing stuff. Looking for consistency in the whole song seems to be a thing of past (if you don't take Raja into consideration). Many parts of the song do not match the spirit of the song. Hope I am not opening another thread of discussion here. We have already frustrated app_eng enough :)
app_engine, informal-a IR works a desiyamayamakkittanga :-)
Ilayaraja in Goa
June 09, 2009
Goa, which is directed by Venkat Prabhu, is moving on at a rapid pace and shaping up well. The film is jointly produced by Soundarya Rajinikanth¡¯s Ocher Studios and Warner Bros. Yuvan Shankar Raja has scored the music for this film.
Premji Amaren plays a significant role in Goa, which has Jai and Sneha in the lead roles. As per sources close to the Goa unit, Premji will feature in a song sequence in the film. According to the grapevine, Premji had requested on having his uncle, Maestro Ilayaraja render his voice for the song and conveyed the same to his cousin Yuvan. Thanks to Yuvan¡¯s effort, everything turned out fine with Ilayaraja giving his consent.
-- சாருலதா இணையத்தள சமீபத்திய கட்டுரையிலிருந்து...
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சமீபத்தில் இளையராஜாவின் திருவாசம் பாடல்களில் ஒன்றை ரொம்பவும் நெக்குருகிக் கேட்டுக் கொண்டிருந்தேன். அவந்திகா “உங்களுக்குத்தான் இளையராஜாவைப் பிடிக்காதே?” என்று ஆச்சரியமாகக் கேட்டாள்.
“ஆமாம், பிடிக்காது.”
“அப்புறம் இது என்ன?”
“ம், என்ன?”
“இதை இப்படி உருகி உருகிக் கேட்கிறீர்கள்?”
“ஆமாம், கேட்பேன்.”
“அடச்சே, லூஸு... உன் கிட்ட கேட்க வந்தேன் பார்” என்று தலையில் அடித்துக் கொண்டே போய் விட்டாள்.
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Venkiram,
Andha loosukku ippo thaan "naan oru loosu" enra gnaanam vandhirukku pola :)
When I read last week in his blog about his recent obssession with 'Soudharya lahari' of 'Adi Shankara' I thouhgt... " romba thooram illadi nee Raaja kitta vanthu searrathukku " :lol: itho vanthu konde irukiraar :twisted:Quote:
Originally Posted by raja_fan
ராஜாவின் இசையும் சில கோணல் எழுத்துக்களும்
http://vigneshram.blogspot.com/2009/...g-post_13.html
Watched SPB's 'Ennodu Paatu Padungal' on Jaya TV when the program was more than half over. The judge was a mridangam artist. I think his name is Srinivas. When I switched on, he seems to have just spoken in detail about Raja and said what a genius he was. He then wondered as to how someone could think of using mridagam aggressively when communicating first love. He said, "I can understand someone using tabla or some other soft instrument but this man used the mridangam" and went on to vocalize the 'solkattu' of the mridangam beats which start "Ayiram Tamarai Mottukale". He ended by saying, "What can I say? Only he can do it. He is great." SPB sang the first line of the song and was nodding his head to what the mridangist was saying. He also sang a nice rhythm based 'Guru Vandanam' (his own composition) at the end of the program.
After posting I realized my last line could be confusing. It was not SPB who sang the Guru Vandanam. It was the mridangist who sang it.
Luckily one 'punyavan' has loaded this part, which I had referred to, in youtube. Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbas3DwfmMY
The mridangam vidwan, Srinivas, talks about Illayraja after 4 mins into the clip.
You can hear Srinivas singing a very nice Guru Vandanam here:
Starts after 3 mins into the clip.
Missed giving the Guru Vandanam song link. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYN6o...eature=related
IR trying to get back into production again ?
http://entertainment.oneindia.in/tel...er-170609.html
http://www.thetimes.co.za/Entertainm...spx?id=1009199
Quote:
ISAI Nyaani Illaiyaraja made one of his rare public appearances when he graced the launch of the audio of Valmiki, the second production of Vikadan Talkies. Anandhanarayaanan, a former assistant to director Shankar, makes his debut as a director in Valmiki. Akil, who made an impressive debut in Balaji Sakthivel’s Kalloori, plays the lead role opposite Meera Nandan and Devika. The event was also attended by directors Shankar and Lungusamy. In his address, Illaiyaraja spoke of the reasons for his reluctance in making public appearances, saying his words were always misinterpreted. As if to prove this point, the English press of Tamil Nadu have spoken of Illaiyaraja’s “arrogance” and “aloofness” in his speech when he spoke about his life, which revolves around music. Of significance was his comment about director Myss-kin and how he had not heard from him since the re-recording of the film Nandhalala. He added that such contact between them was unnecessary as they had a mutual understanding of each other (Mysskin was also one of the speakers). The English press have taken one tabloid’s English translation and have since gone on surfeit of lies and half-truths about Illiayaraja’s arrogance. It is sad when a musical genius like Illaiyaraja, who shaped the destiny of music in Tamil cinema, is shown little respect by a generation of journalists who, in all probability, have little idea about his accomplishments.
Ilaiyaraaja, Yanni and Butterfly Dance
The above link showcases Yanni's lifestyle and music and a excerpt from the article compares Yanni with thalaivar. Basically Yanni composed this song called Butterfly Dance which is a very unique form of music.
the link here :
Butterfly Dance by Yanni
But the article writer claims that thalaivar already composed such a style for the film MTK, the song is ooru sanam(which the orchestration was all by thalaivar).
Ooru Sanam
http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?...date=6/25/2009
Bhagyaraj recalls an episode during mundhAnai mudichchu days. As his first film 'suvar illAdha siththirangaL' and the subsequent silver jubillee hit 'mouna geethangaL' had GA as MD, he was firm about using GA for MM it seems.
(Bhagyaraj meanwhile had used MSV for oru kai Osai / andha 7 nAtkaL, Shankar Ganesh for darling^3, IR for indRu pOi nALai vA, thooRal ninnu pOchchu & vidiyum varai kAththiru, which are not mentioned in this article / speech)
As AVM was insisting on IR, Bhagyaraj had to go to him. As expected, IR refused pointing to the fact that GA was the director's first choice. Bhagyaraj had to reason with IR as "is GA an african, is he not your own thambi etc. " and it took a great deal to make him agree it seems :-)
Commercially, MM is the biggest ever hit for Bhagyaraj and only very few films in TF history can match its success (i.e. within TN). To this day he is recognized for 'murungaikkAi samAchchAram' than anything else :wink:
Velu Prabhakaran's 'Kadhal Arangam' has been changer to 'Kadhal kadhai' and set to release in july as per a paper AD in ThinaThanthi. Hopefully audio should be released soon.
An old Trailer Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcr2YJzkvF4
Trailer of 'Prem Kahani'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8to0yjphiw
Visuals look good and Sheila Looks fresh. Hope the Director doesnt spoil both :)
Thalaivar's Mouna Raagam Score discussed in the Cultural Study of Music in Google Books.
Original Source :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr J Vijay Venkatraman
http://selventhiran.blogspot.com/200...g-post_29.html
intha kodumaya enna solla
K,
If someone listens to the song for the first time in the movie hall, however great the song may be, what they see on-screen will have a great bearing on how they like the song.
If they've listened it prior -like those of us here in this forum - then the opinion will be on musical considerations alone and the video won't have any impact even when viewed later.
Ofcourse, people may dislike a movie's songs for many reasons; but to write that vAlmIki is IR's end etc only shows that the person has a pre-planned agenda. Such "opinions" have zero credentials for "review". That too when an IR-long-timer like me enjoys at least four songs from this movie for more than a month continuously, such opinions automatically earn their place in the garbage:-)