Viggop: Can I try my hand at answering this, or was this question addressed only to Hari Krishnan?Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
:wink:
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Viggop: Can I try my hand at answering this, or was this question addressed only to Hari Krishnan?Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
:wink:
Badri, please go ahead.
As far as I am concerned, I belong to that category of persons who have reasons to believe that what is described in the epics are true, at least in part and the geographical/historical references that they contain can be traced back. The details given are so vivid.
But as for the point that is raised now, this is one of those points where the story moves away from history to a matter of theory.
Please go ahead and give your views. The question might have been addressed to me. But everyone has his/her view, which nonetheless deserves attention.
Regards,
Hari Krishnan
Thanks Hari Krishnan.
Well, we find an answer to Viggop's query in the B.Gita where Krishna says that those who perform the various sacrifices that are detailed in the Vedas attain to Heaven and enjoy the pleasures therein. Ch IX Sh 20
Traividyaa maam somapaah pootapaapaa
Yajnairishtwaa swargatim praarthayante;
Te punyamaasaadya surendraloka-
Mashnanti divyaan divi devabhogaan.
But thereafter, after having enjoyed those vast heavens, when the accumulated merit is finished, they have to return to the world, as evidenced by the next shloka.
Te tam bhuktwaa swargalokam vishaalam
Ksheene punye martyalokam vishanti;
Then again, he says that those that desire the objects and undertake the various rites and rituals enjoined in the Vedas are forever coming and going. (heaven and earth). But those that do not think of anything else except me attain Moksha.
As Viggop rightly said, there is no coming from Moksham. Again as Krishna says, "Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama" Attaning which there is no return, that is My Abode or Moksha.
From this, it becomes clear that heaven and hell may well be different planes of existence to which the Jiva or the soul attains to and enjoys/suffers the fruit of those specific actions which take the jiva there. When that gets over, the Jiva is born again.
However, all the other actions that the Jiva does during its earthly sojourn give the results too - the good and the bad that we enjoy even when we are born and live on Earth.
So, specific karmas enjoined in the Vedas or prohibited by them take man to heaven or hell. All other karmas merely sustain him on earth giving him various joys and sorrow. But to get beyond heaven, hell and earth, is Moksha.
And in fact, seen from this angle, one can even understand how or why even Duryodhana can go to Heaven. How good or bad a person is has nothing to do with going to Swarga. This is clear if we look at the behaviour of Indra as mentioned in the epics, there are times when he really stoops pretty low. Also consider Nahusha who became Indra for a while...his behaviour too was not noteworthy, despite attaining to such a high status. Then what to say of people who merely by force of their acts can attain to heaven without a corresponding mental or internal evolutionj.
One must not think that ordinary good acts will take us to heaven. If that were the case, then we will neither have joy nor sorrow in this life on earth. If all joys were to be enjoyed only in heaven, and all sorrows only in hell, then why do we say "poorva janma karma" when good or bad comes into our lot in our day to day life?
This alone clearly indicates that doing certain karmas, certain yagnas, yagas, or say dying in the battlefield doing the duty (veera swarga) etc can take a Jiva to heaven for a specific period of time. When that is over, he comes back. So going to heaven is not the final achievement. Moksha alone is the final emancipation.
Of course, seen from a Jnana point of view, all this is meaningless. It is only when seen from a Karma point of view that all these make sense.
Thanks Badri for your detailed explanation.
:-)
Yes Badri is right, Lord Krishna says in Gita, that if one does good deeds, he will get a place in heaven for an 'X' period of time, same goes for hell, if one conduct evil deeds, he will go into hell, again for an 'X' period of time, then once these X time periods have expired these atmas will take an another birth in the form another perishable body.
In Mahabhartha as far as I know only Karna and Bheeshma, and sudhama, Lord Krishna's dearest friend(from child hood) will attain Mukti, the rest including the Pandavas will only go to heaven.
The process of attaining mukti, is by self realisation, knowing ur Bhraman(origin) and free ur self from Maya, devote your bhakthi to Iswar or Isa as it is known in Gita, and just think of only Iswar, and this is the ONLY way to Mukti.
any other suggestions
Raghu, when in a nutshell, you have captured the essence of Jnana and Bhakti margas, what else is there to add or suggest!!
Of course you are right! All the Vedas, Upanishads, and Sutras declare that only by Jnana or by Ananya Bhakti can the Lord be known. And knowing Him, of course, is becoming Him, or merging with Him.
thanks Badri anne, I just wanted to clarifications from other intellectuals like you, as the saying says.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbadri99
'Known is a drop unknown is an ocean, who knows him self knows all'.
thank you.
Isn't it that drops form the ocean? Isn't it that the more you know the most you don't know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raghu
While I was going through some of the postings about the Drona and Durupadha friendship turned enemity and finally bitterness ending up with Killing Drona..... ( really really indigestable ... No one will shudder to think of killing his friend.... Such was the enemity )
The same Maharabaratham also highlights the incomparable friendship and the bondage between SriKrishna and Sudhama.
Its we ordinaly mortals who look for levels and divisions... but for the Almighty... all are one.....
The episode of Sudhama getting prepared for meeting his childhood friennd Krishna who is a King now and all he had was few pieces of Aval.... which he took it hesitatingly and met Krishna. How Krishna welcomes him and attends to him with great care .....
Krishna will also ask him ... Friend what did you bring for me ?? and will not wait for him... He will search and find a small piece of aval... packed in old cloth... and will GLEEFULLY have it....
While writing this... enakku mei silirkiradhu........
Krishna knew everything..... He wanted to honour and please his childhood friend.... and took the aval.... with the enthusiasm of a kid...... Just to show that he is the same old Krishna to Sudhama.......
We should learn from Ramayana and Mahabaratha.....
Mate you may be suffering from a lung infection, better you consult a doctor.Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Earlier I raised a query on Amba getting boon from Lord Muruga. It was Lord Karthikeya who gave that garland to Amba and told her that the one who wears this garland will become a Kshatru of Bheeshma….
As Lord Muruga was present at that time , does it mean that Lord Muruga’s Avatar and the entire Surabadhman episode all happened before Mahabaratha… Does it also mean that Tamilnadu was existent during that time… as Lord Murugan is Tamil Kadavul..
Sorry for this digression…
Hi,
I was going thru the posts - highly enlightening!
I have a question about Dronacharya - At the time of the war, Bheeshma (because of his oath), kripacharya (because he was the Kula Guru and thus probably bound to Hastinapur) and many others side with the Kauravas for their own reasons, though reluctantly. But, why did Dronacharya have to side with them? He was not the Kula Guru and so, I do not see how he could have been bound by duty to the king/country etc. When Vidura, who was the prime minister, could refrain from taking sides, what put Drona in a position to side with the kauravas?
If this has been already dealt with in the posts earlier, please refer me to the right place.
Sorry for the digression.
Yes Balaji anNe, lord Krishna's friendship with sudhama, and Karna's friendship with Duryodhana are an example of how friendship should be,Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
the scene when Lord krishna will run out of his palace, once he hears that his friend is in dwaraka is still fresh in my mind, this is HOW FRIENDSHIP SHOULD BE, , NON SELFISHNESS
Balaji
Skandapuranam is told by Valmiki to Lord Rama.He mentions about Saravana Poigai.This is present in Valmiki's ramayanam.So, Skandha was there at that time of Ramayana.
Lord muruga was mentioned as kartikeya in Mahabharath and Shrimad bhagavatham, but there is no mention of Lord Ganesh in either of these epic, could some one correct me, if i am wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
thanks
It is well recorded that Ganesha was the one who actualy wrote the entire Mahabharatha, while Vyasa dictated it!
Yes, Lord Ganesha was requested by Sage Vyasa to write .. However, Ganesha laid one condition that he will have to narrate without a pause... for this Vyasa requested Ganesha again that Ganesha before writing, should understand the essence and meaning of every word and then write.... This gave some breathing time to Vyasa to narrate...Quote:
Originally Posted by sbadri99
It is also heard that Lord Ganesha, to write , broke his Thantham to write
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
yes Badri anNe and balaji anNe, i agree it was Lord Vinayagar who wrote the epic, but in the actual Mahabhartham epic as far as i know, Lord Ganesh is not mentioned at all, even all the demi gods, like indran, chandran, bhoomi devi, etc etc are all mentioned but No Lord Ganesh :cry: :cry:
Out of all the Vedic Gods... the Scriptures say... that Ganesha and Hanuman are the HUMBLEST Gods on Earth. ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Raghu
... and especially Lord Ganesa demands Humble-attitude as the RUDIMENTARY -CHARACTER..... more than Bhakthi ... (from His Devotees.)
... for Happiness and Success with least Obstructions and Delays in Life
Such an exceptional Quality to the highest degree... was much appreciatedby Lord Vishnu... and so...
... Goddess Lakshmi, named Ganesa as... VISHNUPRIYA... which is one of his 108 Names...
... and is chanted during Archanas TO Ganesa, as ... VISHNUPRIYAAYAI NAMAHA ..
Such a God... of utmost Humble character...despite his Great Godly- might..
... Will write his own Greatness?.. or at least mention His own Name in Writing Mahabharatha?..
While Ganesa was writing Mahabharatha with the Coventional- Writing-Tool ... "Ezhuththaanhi"....
...Vyasa at one stage, took it as a Challenge... and started dictating too fast to follow in writing. but Ganesa did not lag behind. and so counter- challenged by matchingly fast writing.
But for such a Superfast Speed and force of these two sorts of mutual-challenges, the Ezhuththaanhi could not cope up.... So it got broken.
Then Ganesa felt it as another challenge of Circumstances... or an Obstacle..!! ... To the God of Obstacle-Clearance...!!!
Within a Trice of a Second... Ganesa broke one of His own Horns and continued writing fast, ensuring unaffected Speed.
Vyasa immediately shed tears... seeing this Remarkable gesture of Sacrifice...
... by this SMALL-BOY Ganesa...
... just to keep up to the Commitment ... coupled with the Utmost sense of DUTY.
Vyasa blessed Him and advised to leave the Broken-Horn unchanged... as a Divine-Message to Humanity... that...
DUTY IS THE TOP-MOST PRIORITY... Over all other Considerations ... including One's Self-Interests in Life.
Dear sudhama sir
Wonder ful posts, esp the last line.
by the way, pls reply to P.messages i have sent in the last couple of weeks.
thanks a lot sir
HariKirshnan Sir
I'm awaiting your post on Duryodhana's ascent to heaven. :)
Raghavan's little story on the above is really worthy reading. Please do go through Yudhistra's journey in heaven...
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...768&highlight=
Our epics have a lot of references to demons, are these demons a divergence from our ancestry in evolution, that emphasized on physical strength rather than intellect ?
In ramayana we do have monkey kindoms, are they also similar species that diverged from ours. Vaali/sukriva 's kingdoms had so many monkey soilders that are amenable like humans.
Dear friends,
I am a newbie here. Rarely have I seen such scholarly discussions on the Mahabharatam as I see here. My namaskaram to all the people who have contributed to the discussion.
While glancing thru the previous pages I saw a query from someone, on why Duryodhana with all his sins ended up in heaven. Since I have a theory of my own I would like to share it with you all. Let me whether I am right or wrong.
For all his sinful nature, Duryodhana personified the human element of bravery and manliness. He was the man who had no fear even the most dangerous circumstances. He embodied pride and self confidence. Let me quote from the Mahabharatam, where Duryodhana with his thighs broken down, in deep pain, with all his hopes dashed and himself awaiting death, tells Sanjaya to console his parents thus (note the number of times he asks with pride - who is more fortunate than himself)
Quote :
My parents are not ignorant of the duties of battle. Instructed by me, O Sanjaya, tell them that are afflicted with grief these words: I have performed sacrifices, supported a large number of servants properly, governed the whole earth with her seas! I stayed on the heads of my living foes! I gave wealth to my kinsmen to the extent of my abilities, and I did what was agreeable to friends. I withstood all my foes. Who is there that is more fortunate than myself? I have made progresses through hostile kingdoms and commanded kings as slaves. I have acted handsomely towards all I loved and liked. Who is there more fortunate than myself? I honoured all my kinsmen and attended to the welfare of all my dependants. I have attended to the three ends of human existence, Religion, Profit, and Pleasure! Who is there more fortunate than myself? I laid my commands on great kings, and honour, unattainable by others, was mine, I always made my journeys on the very best of steeds. Who is there more fortunate than myself? I studied the Vedas and made gifts according to the ordinance. My life has passed in happiness. By observance of the duties of my own order, I have earned many regions of blessedness hereafter. Who is there more fortunate than myself? By good luck, I have not been vanquished in battle and subjected to the necessity of serving my foes as masters. By good luck, O lord, it is only after my death that my swelling prosperity abandons me for waiting upon another! That which is desired by good Kshatriyas observant of the duties of their order, that death, is obtained by me! Who is there so fortunate as myself? By good luck, I did not suffer myself to be turned away from the path of hostility and to be vanquished like an ordinary person! By good luck, I have not been vanquished after I had done some base act! Like the slaughter of a person that is asleep or that is heedless, like the slaughter of one by the administration of poison, my slaughter hath taken place, for I have been slain as unrighteously, in contravention of the rules of fair fight! The highly blessed Ashvatthama, and Kritavarma of the Satwata race, and Saradwat's son Kripa, should be told these words of mine, 'You should never repose any confidence upon the Pandavas, those violators of rules, who have perpetrated many unrighteous acts!'
(MBH Shalya Parvan 9.61 Tr. Kisari Mohan Ganguli)
End Quote
Romani...
Well said.... Kisari Mohan Ganguli is one of the veterans on epics......
Yes....its true that despite Duryodhana's wickedness and animosity towards Pandavas...he was a good ruler....administered his subjects well...
Lived like a true Kshatriya...and died as a Kshatriya....in a warfield
He finally reserved his rightful place in Heaven....
... Why SWARGA for Duryodana.?
Duryodana was NEVER THE RULER KING on the Throne... but only his father Dhritharashtra, even on the day when a grave Injustice was meted out to Dhraupathi... on the commands of Duryodana... the EMBODIMENT of wickedness.Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Mahabharatha nowhere praises Duryodana under any context ... but the Negative.
When the Question of Successor to Dhritharashtra was taken up for consideration... the Royal- Scholars -Team headed by Bhishma declared Duryodana as Unfit to become a King...
.. and only Yudhishtra was the most suitable and the best Qualified to occupy the Throne... by the dint of all the tenets of a Ruler Successor..
Such a spark of negation and Denial for the claim by Duryodana... enraged him against Bhishma and Pandavas... which was further fanned up by Karna.
Despite all the Negative points towards his discredit, Duryodana got qualified to reach SWARGA ... by the following justifications.
(1) Mahabharatha occurred at the final stages of Krishnawathara.. and so it forms part of it. Only on the appeal of Bhoomi-dhevi, Krishna had to take another birth on Earth, just to annihilate the mass of worst Sinners and establish the Greatness of Righteousness... especially amongst the Ruler Kings.. In that respect He needed the Co-operation of the Positive and Negative forces as well. Duryodana trapped under extreme Jealousy became IGNORANT on Life-principles.. Thus he fell in line with the machinations of Krishna, resulting in destroyal of all the mass of the Wicked forces in the shape of Mankind. .. which part of service to God even though on the Negative side, deserves recognition.
(2) As Kshathriya, Duryodana's duty was to face the War. He did it DUTIFULLY, for which he was rewarded.
(3) The most important factor is SAJJANA- SAHAVAASAM...Sasthras affirm, that even a worst Sinner can be condoned .. if he befriends and supports Good people so called Sajjanas. Duryodana was fully qualified in that respect by his TIMELY SUPPORT to Karna, as well as to keeping the Stalwarts like Bhishma, Kripa, Drona and so on.. along with his side... He even befriended Lord Krishna . Such high values of Royal- strategy should not be left unrecognised.
So,.. for taking the WRONG-SIDE... those Good people Karna, Bishma, Drona, Krupa and such others were miserably punished.
... while on the other side... just for joining and patronising the Sajjanas the RIGHT GREATS... the Wicked Duryodana was provisionally exonerated to Swarga. .. postponing his other part of facing the music for his sins.
One IMPORTANT factor... we must not forget. Swarga is ..ONLY A TEMPORARY STATUS of pleasure, on completion of which one has to take the due rebirth and face the past Remnant Karma.
Not similar to MUKTHI... Liberation from Rebirth... the Greatest outcome of God's grace saving from further onslaughts of sufferings.
Eternal Life- Lesson for Mankind... from God.... more by action than by Words.
Yes, Like Sudhama sir said, Duryodhana never ruled Hastinapur, it was under the admin of His Father!
But one MUST accept the fact, that Duryodhana never used Yuth Adharma to in the war, well, may be except when abhimanyu was killed by a group of warriors, including Duryodhana him self!
One Criminal cruelly murdered his own mother, and then conducted her last rites, sincerely with pomp and great show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raghu
In such a case,...Does he become qualified to be GLORIFIED... or CONDONED?
Sudhama Sir, who duryodhana? :shock: , pls explainQuote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama Sir
My words can be taken in Two different senses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raghu
(1) One as a Simile... Similarity... Parallel Example, similar to Literatures, including Thirukkuralh. So to say, the Answer whatever is due in the Example, will become applicable in the case of Duryodhana too.
(2) Two in the direct sense.. or Metaphor.. Imagine Dharma as Duryodana's mother he had already murdered tyrannically inch by inch since long years all through his past life....
... then preaching sermons to others and pretending as if he strictly follows the Rule-of War-Discipline and Battle-codes of practice.
All illusory and Self-centred Drama to cheat the Right-minded people.
A Simple example...
A murderer is rendered the punishment of Death. Can he ask back that the King also has become a Criminal by committing the same Crime of killing another criminal. So the King too deserves the equal punishment!!
Besides... the next and the MOST IMPORTANT MORAL LESSON ...in Mahabharatha...
Why God Krishna, showed Out-of- the- ways... to his followers Arjuna and Yudhishtra?... Can't He not have performed in the direct approaches and won over the Evils... without violating the War-Codes prevalent then?
By this does Krishna not deserve to be blamed for instigating Lawlessness, Violation of Moral-Codes, Partiality, Bias and Exploiitation of the Opponent's Dhaarmic adherences.?
I welcome Friends to answer this IMPORTANT QUESTION...
I will reply as the last... after hearing from all of you.
Mr. Sudhama....
Let me try to put my views on your question on Lord Krishna's acts of using Adharma... to finish the war...
Lord Krishna's main objective was reestablish DHARMA..... to do that ..... he didnt mind even doing ADHARMA... to render justice.....
this prompted him to venture into all adharmic ways to eliminate giants like Bheeshma, Drona, Karna and even Duryodhana finally....
( infact he will ask Arjuna to shoot an arrow on Purisiravas...who actually will be fighting another guy... Satyaki and not Arjuna... but still Srikrishna pushed Arjuna to shoot that arrow.... because... Satyaki was representing the Dharmic forces ..led by Yudhistira.... )
Probably this could be the reason...
There is also a saying in Tamil...
THANNAI KOLLA VANDHA PASUVAYUM KOLLALAAM...
Can someone enlighten me on this query :
The Mahabaratha epic covered few countries only...rather only Barath...( even considering Kandahar - kingdom of Sakuni to be part of India earlier ).... I could not see participants from other countries...
Does it mean that during this period..only India was in existence...
Or maybe even other civilisations (I can think of only the Egyptian/Sumerian) tat were in existence then were too far flung from India so there was poss' no chance of contact for them w/ India then.......?
Dear Balaji anNe,Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Let me try, pls pardon me if I am wrong, Dwapara yuga was supposed to be older than 5,000 yrs old, bharath, probably consisted of Afghanistan,Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet, and probably some countries which are situated above Nepal as well, Srilanka was never part of it, cos in Ramayana which was prior to Mahabharth occured in 'Satya Yuga', in which Lanka was clearly mentioned
In a TV program,Tamil professor Gnanasampandham said this story
The pandavas were jealous that Lord Krishna was always priasing Karnan.
So, they said to Krishna that they'll exceed Karna's magnanimity.So, Lord Krishna created a mountain of gold coins and a mountain of silver coins and asked pandavas to distribute to poor.Pandavas distributed to all the poor people who vame and asked for charity but the mountain of gold and silver coins never became empty.
Then,Lord Krishna asked Karnan to come and asked him to distribute the wealth to poor.When karnan was there, 2 poor people came and asked for charity.Karnan ordered the ENTIRE MOUNTAIN of gold coins to be given to one poor man and the entire mountain of silver coins to another poor man.Hence, it disappeared within a second.
Pandavas , on seeing this, were humbled and understood why Krishna regarded Karna's magnanimity better than themselves.
In the war, When Krishna asked Karnan to donate all his dharmas,Karnan gave it willingly to Krishna.A drop of karnan;s blood also fell on Krishna and because of this,even Lord Krishna asked "Whether you want anything from me?" Lord Krishna never gives anything that easily to anyone.Even the most devout will be tested and he will play with them for a while before handing out anything to them.But, a drop of Karnan's blood made even the Lord ask whether anything is needed from him! such is greatness of Karnan's magnanimous character.
When you come into contact with magnanimous people, you will also become magnanimous and the goodness will spread.
Yes, though Partha was Lord Krishna's beloved friend, he had the MOST respect for Karna
Hello This is my firat post! I am happy post my first post in this great topic!
MahaBharatha-The Jaya should be made the National Epic for its accomplishment to the Humanity!
Yes making it a National Epic wud be fine, provided the present gen. India has ne interest/regard for all this, which is rather diluted at present! :(
Lamby,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambretta
Ignorant is a bliss, what to do, ellam Mayaiyin vizhaiyatu :(