The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath

What I have heard about chakra vyooham.It is supposed to be known as Padma Vyooham in which Abhimanyu died,,i think

Suicide warriors belonging to kauravas side challenge arjuna and they take him away by taunting him.Because his ego was punctured by these guys,arjuna goes after them inspite of Krishna's advice.Meanwhile, as there is no one to enter Padma Vyooham,Bhima requests Abhimanyu to enter as abhimanyu claims knowledge of entry.Bhima assures abhimanyu that he & other pandavas will also help him in his return.Abhimanyu enters the vyooham with Duryodhana being the central warrior in the vyooham.Jayadratha had got a boon from Lord Shiva that he can defeat all pandavas except arjuna for a day.He uses this boon and wards off Yudishtra,Bhima,Nakula and sahadeva from following abhimanyu into the vyooham and they are unable to help him.

I think it was one of duryodhana;s son who finally kills abhimanyu with the blow in the back.By that time, he is very tired as all his weapons are broken.Karna breaks abhimanyu's bow by shooting from behind as per Dronacharya's advide.All these actions are adharmic.

I think Karna's bow is called "Vijaya". Arjuna does kill Karna's sons.I think one of the sons also took to drive karna's chariots in the war

Yes, Karna's Bow is called Vijaya.

I have no doubts it is the greatest literary work. But I cannot withstand the morals in it.

I do not even agree that Pandavas were legitimate claimers of the throne. It was Bhishma who should be the ruler. When he himself supported Duryodhana why were the Pandavas wanting the throne ? On what rights ? The entire administration was supporting Dhuryodhana.

Next thing is I do not believe word by word of this epic. Karna was the son of a Charoteer. But he was hailed and praised by Dhuryodhana. I see in Dhuryodhana the heart and mind to accept a lesser previleged man. For me he looks more virtuous than Pandavas.

Pandavas won the war by crooked means. They did not have experience to rule. They had no expert advicers like Bhishma/Dhuryodhana. Then how did they rule ?

Based on what I read, this war was the greatest genocide in Indian history. And all because of Pandavas. No where in Mahabharatha there is evidence that Dhuryodhana and Co were not good rulers. Their people were after-all happy. The Pandavas were simply the "rebels" or the "destroyers". All for "greed" of power. They could have been the insurgents in real life.

Just because they had Krishna on their side, they won the war. In anycase, why did Krishan support Arjuna ? Just because Arjuna is related ? Or because he asked him for help first ? Should he not, instead, think who the people of the country fovoured ? Kauravas with the intellectuals on their side obviously were better administrators.

Also I feel this classic keeps reminding us of "birth based caste system" again and again. Even good charectors like Krishna and Karuna are finally merged into the Kshatriya caste as if Vyasa watched their conception and birth. It is this thing that irritates me.

The next thing I hated was the charector of Draupadi. She was simply irritating for me since child-hood. How can Pandavas share her. And how can she even live sleeping with so 5 men ? Or is she a Tibetan ?

Also Draupadi is the one who humiliates Dhuryodhana and so she is the one directly responsible for the war which costed so many lives.

Bhishma and all Kauravas have great respect in me including Gandhari.

May be I am a descendant of Kauravas. In that case I wish to rather take revenge on the Pandavas.

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Originally Posted by pizzalot

Next thing is I do not believe word by word of this epic. Karna was the son of a Charoteer. But he was hailed and praised by Dhuryodhana. I see in Dhuryodhana the heart and mind to accept a lesser previleged man. For me he looks more virtuous than Pandavas.

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NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!

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Originally Posted by Raghu

NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!

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I would rather put it this way. Karna was rejected by Pandavas because of he was poor and lower in Status. He was disqualified after he won the contest. It was Dhuryodhana's brave and broad mindedness that appealed him. See, he need not have made him a King. He could have had him as a slave and yet made him work for him against Arjuna. If he was really after his talent he could have very well gone to woe Krishna himself, with whose support he was sure to win. But since the beginning he did not try much. It was at the behest of Shakuni he finally went to ask for HIS help. Dhuryodhana was humiliated by the Pandavas especially by the ugly Bhima. He was also humiliated by Draupadi. He just wanted them to be destroyed. He was not a smart politician in any way like Pandavas. He was a outspoken person who spoke out his heart. But the Pandavas were the real cunning people. There are a lot of incidence this is proven.

My theory is since because they won the war they had become heroes. If Dur was so cunning and wicked, he would have gone to hell. But see he goes to heaven. Inspite of winning the war the Pandavas were stopped at the heaven-gates and cursed to hell. It was just one of them ( I forgot to say it earlier, Yudhirshtra is my only favorite among the Pandavas ) who was granted the privelege of the heavens. In the heavens Dhur and Karna and other Kauravas were already there to greet him.

It is as though God gave the Pandava terrorists what they wanted on the earth but gave the Kauravas the eternal peace.

It is the off-springs of the Arjuna(grandsons) who finally ruled the earth. I am pretty sure they went to hell after they die.

In short anyone who supported or supports Pandavas went or will go to hell. On the other hand Kaurava supporters like me are good, plain and non-cunning people so we will must be going to heaven.

You must remember here that Dhuryodhana even let the sons of the incapable Pandav to rule for a while. He took their Kingdom (Indraprastha) rightfully back after they lost it to Dhur. What face did they have to ask for it afte 14 years ? If I lose something in gamble it is gone forever isnt it ? It was so unfair for others to intervene and say Dhur had to to retuen it back after 14 years. See, even here those cowards made politics. This simple guy Dhur did not know how to do politics.

Pandav, the incapable, had all his sons very wicked and cunning. "younger" they were more wicked they become. Dharma was OK. But Bhima onwards their wickedness and cunningness grows. Nag and Saha should be nothing but pile of wickedness and cunningness. Karna was not really the son of Pandav.

Mahabharatha is a great epic. No doubt about it. But one should read the hidden values in it. The Pandavas won the war and so whoever wrote it could not explicitly say the ruling Pandavas were correct. But the truth is hidden in many places. It is not a good idea to let someone ( who could be descendants of Pandavas ) to read it and explain it for you because they will have an hidden agenda.

Krishna is an exemption here. Though he supported Arjuna/Pandavas, he was in-fact punishing him for his/their greed. He wanted to be the "best" warrior and asked his Friend and Relative Krishna to teach him and only him the Chakravyuga a war strategy. Karna taught him and only him and see how knowingly he made Arjuna suffer by letting Abi die ? Thus even though Krishna helped Pandavas on earth he was actually helping Kauravas and Bhishma to go to heaven.

Dhur means wicked. How come all of the Kaurava names start with Dhur or Wicked ? Will any parent name their kids as "Wicked" ? This itself is a proof that the epic was writers were sponsored by the victorious Pandavs. They made themselves as heroes and their opponents as wicked. They must have simply asked them to name all the Kauravas as meaning "wicked". In reality they all must have had different names and titles. May be the people hailed them as even good.

But the writer is a genious. He has embedded the truth in several places so that even after ages if one reads with an intelligent mind, he can discover the truth.

In anycase the writer makes it easy for us to know who was right and who was wrong. Only the good goes to heaven. And here the Kauravas were the good ones.

Jai Dhuryodhana !

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Originally Posted by pizzalot

I would rather put it this way. Karna was rejected by Pandavas because of he was poor and lower in Status. He was disqualified after he won the contest. It was Dhuryodhana's brave and broad mindedness that appealed him. See, he need not have made him a King. He could have had him as a slave and yet made him work for him against Arjuna.

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NO, That is against Kshatriyas Dharma, Only a King can fight another King

Raghu, several rules were broken during the war See Bhima killed Dhur hitting him on the thighs against the rules.

A woman killed Bhishma against the rules.

Karna could have easily killed Arjuna even not being a king.

Also there are lot of evidences Dhur and Karna were friends. Karna was even playing chess with Dhur wife. Dhur never felt jealous about Karna. He is always described as an impulsive person. He could not have been a strategic and cunning person at all.

Hi

Hold on,

I will give a detailed, explanation :-)

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Originally Posted by pizzalot

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Originally Posted by Raghu

NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!

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Jai Dhuryodhana !

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Pizza, dont make a fuss here. This is one of the serious threads going on in this forum.....Talk with some sense and dont throw whatever you feel like....

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Originally Posted by Raghu

Hi

Hold on,

I will give a detailed, explanation :-)

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Raghu Sir or others, please dont waste your time in explaining or responding to these kind of childish pranks...I think we are seriously discussing here...better not consider non-sense here!

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Originally Posted by srivatsan

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Originally Posted by Raghu

Hi

Hold on,

I will give a detailed, explanation :-)

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Raghu Sir or others, please dont waste your time in explaining or responding to these kind of childish pranks...I think we are seriously discussing here...better not consider non-sense here!

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No No.. dear Mr Srivatsan,

Please do not hurt any Hubber... by hitting at him/ her personally. In your opinion, may be what he says...is a NONSENSE...but...

...we the other Hubbers at equal status have no Moral right to comment or criticis so.... out of the way...

... deviating or CONTRARY to the Spirit of a Public Forum ... especially of Global purview ...

... OPEN TO ANYONE of the World... either Knowledged or Radically IGNORANT.

Our friend is just putting forth his Thoughts, Knowledge and Contentions on Mahabharatha...

..in an UNUSUAL DIRECTION... as much as he is able to perceive in his own VARIED OUTLOOK.

Even though it is our Great Indian Heritage Treasure... of IMMENSE HUMAN- VALUES ...

...Exemplary for Global Mankind... ETERNALLY. .. We believe quite opposite to His views.

So I am VERY HAPPY that one friend we got anew... who has kindled our thoughts...

... as a Spur for Knowledge on this Great SIMPLIFIED Gospel in the practical Life approach while dealing with various types of personages.

Even the Gods and Prophets like Jesus, Krishna, Siva, Sankara, Ramanuja and the likes too... were badly criticised and opposed face to face.

If they wanted they could have resorted to any measure directly or indirectly to FINISH the existence of such opponents.

But they had not taken such an ELEMENTARY APPROACH...

Whereas they the Exemplary LEADERS OF HUMANITY... have availed such oppositions...

... as the best opportunity to improve on their noble sides... by countering in FINER DETAIL...

... perceptible even to a Totally Ignorant Commonman.

So let us follow their Footsteps... by trying to answer the Questions raised here... if you can...

...Irrespective of the person behind the Question..Otherwise please keep silent.

At the same time I hope our new Friends on the opposite side too will NOT FORGET...

...to reciprocate our gentlemanly approach conforming to the norms of Civic manners in the public...

...and hence will not take up an Intentional differing approach... but only an OPEN MINDED outlook ...

...nor use any Terminolgies OFFENSIVE OR WOUNDING to the Opponents.

We welcome any healthy criticisms and oppositions subject to the bounds of such Intellectual Human norms.

I am closely watching how you on the other side are handling this Challenge.

Finally I will step in... to impress him... making to decide himself as to what is correct and what is Non-sense....

...On this Mahabhaaratha, the Immortal DRAMATIC GOSPEL...for the Global Mankind.!!!

the extract of the epic mahabharat in my opinion is that " The Truth [Dharma] never ever be defeated" it does not matter whether adharm is more powerful in comparison to dharma.


some of my frinends was always criticised to lord krishnas diplomacy with karna & others in the mahabharat at my student life when there any discussion
about mahabharat occured.


karna was more powerful than arjun
bhism pitamaha was also very experinced and powerful, overall kouravas were more powerful than pandvas , than why pandvas win that battle?


and the answer is only the lord krishna [ i.e. gyan, truth, dharma,]
what is the main roal of the lord krisna in this battle ?


he was only a driver(saarthi) of arjun`s wheicle (Rath), and he motivated arjun
to be indulge only in the karma without expecting its result.
he dont touched any arms (shastras) in the whole battle.


though its true that lord krisna plays diplomacy in the battle but it was to establish dharma,truth, to save the world. it is also true that lord krishna has tried to his extreme that the battle of mahabharta does not takes placed, but the god also failed in front of hungerness of property, greediness, selfishness, lustness & diplomacy of kouravas.
so to neutralize poisions of kouravas (adharma) the god krisna used another poison of diplomacy. there are nothing seems odd about it.


if we got virul fever we are not taking another poision in the form of medicine to kill appropriate viruses?
if one got small wound in his feet and by neglecting proper cure to it,if that feet gets more infectected and begin to rotten then to save his life it is a wise choise that he should relive all affection to his feet, and live his reminded life with one feet.


i learn this through the epic mahabharat.

Sudhaama Sir, Sorry if I had over-gone...

I do not know why many persons rate Arjuna inferior to Karna. There have been many many instances where Arjuna's valour been explained Mahabharatham.

Arjuna, by his capacity did penance and Got Pashupathasthra from Lord Shiva. For this, he even fight with Lord Shiva and only after impressed by Arjuna's valour Lord Shiva gives him the asthra...

Secondly, in the time of vana vasam, when Dhuryodhana was arrested by some Gandharwas, in the forest, Karna was severly hurt in the fight with Gandharvas and escaped from the battle field. It is Arjuna and Bhima who fougt with those Gandharvas and saved Dhuryodhana.

Similarly when Padavas were in Agnynatha Vasam in Upaplavya desham, Kaurava forces, including Bhishma and Drona invaded Upalavya. Karna too was in that force. Every one was single handedly defeated by Arjuna, that too with a novice charioteer...

So I dont think, Arjuna is inferior to anyone. Karna may be a great warrior with equal might to Arjuna. But he was not all that a "gem" in Character...proofs to follow!

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Originally Posted by srivatsan

Sudhaama Sir, Sorry if I had over-gone...

I do not know why many persons rate Arjuna inferior to Karna. There have been many many instances where Arjuna's valour been explained Mahabharatham.

Arjuna, by his capacity did penance and Got Pashupathasthra from Lord Shiva. For this, he even fight with Lord Shiva and only after impressed by Arjuna's valour Lord Shiva gives him the asthra...

Secondly, in the time of vana vasam, when Dhuryodhana was arrested by some Gandharwas, in the forest, Karna was severly hurt in the fight with Gandharvas and escaped from the battle field. It is Arjuna and Bhima who fougt with those Gandharvas and saved Dhuryodhana.

Similarly when Padavas were in Agnynatha Vasam in Upaplavya desham, Kaurava forces, including Bhishma and Drona invaded Upalavya. Karna too was in that force. Every one was single handedly defeated by Arjuna, that too with a novice charioteer...

So I dont think, Arjuna is inferior to anyone. Karna may be a great warrior with equal might to Arjuna. But he was not all that a "gem" in Character...proofs to follow!

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Dear Mr Srivatsan,

I did not mean that you have transgressed your bounds.

But I wanted to caution you ...NOT TO CONSIDER CHEAP or Get Emotional ...

...NOR DISCOURAGE the opponent on the Contrary stand to your Belief

.... There lies the Rudimentary Norm for any OPEN-FORUM like ours.. where even a Schoolboy may raise his doubts and Questions here....

.... while we don't know the person behind the Voice.. So my Suggestion is.... as I already stated...

... Take it as another Best Opportunity to analytically JUSTIFY YOUR STAND... the Truth.

In fact I wholeheartedly thank our new Friend for coming forward to participatehere along with us.

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Originally Posted by Raghu

NO, That is against Chathiriya Dharma, Only a King can fight another King

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mm.... I think the soceity was much more divided in those days. Mahabaratha, being a great epic portrays these things clearly. The caste system which is one of the things followed strictly in those days is a nice example for this.

RaghuJi, I think if we should respect only talents then Kirubachariyaar should not have prevented Karna just because of the fact that he is not a king

In that case, DHURYODANA was bold enough to break this old nastiytradition. :)

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Originally Posted by srivatsan

I do not know why many persons rate Arjuna inferior to Karna. There have been many many instances where Arjuna's valour been explained Mahabharatham.

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Dear Srivatsan, :-)

Pls dont address as me sir, I am not worthy of it nor I am old enough for that :-), I am lot younger than you assume :-)

Right on your above point, My knowledge isbased on Mahabharatha serial by Ramanand Saagar, and the Mahabharth book.

Krishna has many times, Explained to Karna was better Warrior than Partha (Arjuna), in many occasion, before Karna led the war as Commander in charge in Gurushetra, Arjuna will be over joyed, arrgonace and ego will blind his Eye, Krsishna would say 'Partha, dont underestimate Karna's ability, he is a far better warrior than you, you can only win him over deciet and wickerdness!

Then we all know all the six deceits Karna has been under

1) Kavasa Kundal - Cuuningly deprived from him
2) Curse from Parashuram
3) Nakasthra issue
4) Curse from bhramin saying that his chariot will be stuck in earth
5) His chariot will walk away -- (he was the Uncle of Pandavas, Can some one remind me his name)
6) ????

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Originally Posted by srivatsan

Arjuna, by his capacity did penance and Got Pashupathasthra from Lord Shiva. For this, he even fight with Lord Shiva and only after impressed by Arjuna's valour Lord Shiva gives him the asthra...

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Yes this is true, Aum NamaShivaya

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Originally Posted by srivatsan

Secondly, in the time of vana vasam, when Dhuryodhana was arrested by some Gandharwas, in the forest, Karna was severly hurt in the fight with Gandharvas and escaped from the battle field. It is Arjuna and Bhima who fougt with those Gandharvas and saved Dhuryodhana.

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This is Common in any war fare, you are right Arjuna single handedly defeated the Kauravas, including Karna, but Karna single handedly defeated Pandavas for the last 5 days he Commanded the Kauravas!

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Originally Posted by srivatsan

So I dont think, Arjuna is inferior to anyone. Karna may be a great warrior with equal might to Arjuna. But he was not all that a "gem" in Character...proofs to follow!

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No Ajuna was inferior to many warriors like Bhishma, Jeyadrathan, Dronacharaya, Angaraj Karna, even to Aswathama to certain extent!

Raghu Sir

May I get explanation for :

1. Why did Drona ask for Ekalaivan's thumb finger -
So that Arjuna will not have any equal warrior
or THE DIRTY CASTE WAR HERE ALSO :twisted:

2. Drona I believe told Karna that he can teach only Kshatriyas -
If yes, why did he teach his son who was a Brahmin guy ?

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

RaghuJi, I think if we should respect only talents then Kirubachariyaar should not have prevented Karna just because of the fact that he is not a king

In that case, DHURYODANA was bold enough to break this old nastiytradition. :)

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Indeed!!! Only TALENTS should be appreciated , teh casts, class and all that Crap should not come in at all.. But yes though I loudly applaud Dhurodhana for his bold move, there were self fish reasons behind it, he wanted some one to defeat Arjuna, he knew Only Karna can do it, so he made use of the circumstances wisely!

small request, dont call me Ji, Machi sounds better, Sariya Machi
:-) :lol:

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Originally Posted by Raghu

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

RaghuJi, I think if we should respect only talents then Kirubachariyaar should not have prevented Karna just because of the fact that he is not a king

In that case, DHURYODANA was bold enough to break this old nastiytradition. :)

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Indeed!!! Only TALENTS should be appreciated , teh casts, class and all that Crap should not come in at all.. But yes though I loudly applaud Dhurodhana for his bold move, there were self fish reasons behind it, he wanted some one to defeat Arjuna, he knew Only Karna can do it, so he made use of the circumstances wisely!

small request, dont call me Ji, Machi sounds better, Sariya Machi
:-) :lol:

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Raghu sir

I think Duryodhana accepted Karna as his friend even before Karna could prove his skills ( remember that display day )
I dont see any vested interest here by Duryodhana

Pl enlighten me here

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

Raghu Sir

May I get explanation for :

1. Why did Drona ask for Ekalaivan's thumb finger -
So that Arjuna will not have any equal warrior
or THE DIRTY CASTE WAR HERE ALSO :twisted:

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Hello, this was one of Krishna leela, Drona knew Ekalaiva was better archer than Arjuna and he feared that He may excell him (dronarcharya) in Archery and may pose a threat to the Pandavas, as he felt that he may Join the Kauravas against the Pandavas.

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

2. Drona I believe told Karna that he can teach only Kshatriyas -
If yes, why did he teach his son who was a Brahmin guy ?

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I dont think Dronacharya taught Aswathama any Archery skills,

Could Sudhamma Sir pls, enlighten us on this.

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Originally Posted by Raghu

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

Raghu Sir

May I get explanation for :

1. Why did Drona ask for Ekalaivan's thumb finger -
So that Arjuna will not have any equal warrior
or THE DIRTY CASTE WAR HERE ALSO :twisted:

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Hello, this was one of Krishna leela, Drona knew Ekalaiva was better archer than Arjuna and he feared that He may excell him (dronarcharya) in Archery and may pose a threat to the Pandavas, as he felt that he may Join the Kauravas against the Pandavas.

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

2. Drona I believe told Karna that he can teach only Kshatriyas -
If yes, why did he teach his son who was a Brahmin guy ?

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I dont think Dronacharya taught Aswathama any Archery skills,

Could Sudhamma Sir pls, enlighten us on this.

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Raghu Sir

I think your version may be wrong.
There is no Krishna leela here on Ekalaivan episode. Besides, Drona had no reason to fear that EK may join Kauravas as during that phase , THE ENTIRE PANDAVAS & GAURAVAS WERE VERY YOUNG & NOONE FORSAW ANY EVENTUAL WAR
In other words, Drona didnt have any disparity between Pandavas & Kauravas during this phase .
Pl clarify me


As per you Drona didnt teach Aswathama.
Then how did he learn the art of archery ? Infact he had divine weapons I believe

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

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Originally Posted by Raghu

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

RaghuJi, I think if we should respect only talents then Kirubachariyaar should not have prevented Karna just because of the fact that he is not a king

In that case, DHURYODANA was bold enough to break this old nastiytradition. :)

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Indeed!!! Only TALENTS should be appreciated , teh casts, class and all that Crap should not come in at all.. But yes though I loudly applaud Dhurodhana for his bold move, there were self fish reasons behind it, he wanted some one to defeat Arjuna, he knew Only Karna can do it, so he made use of the circumstances wisely!

small request, dont call me Ji, Machi sounds better, Sariya Machi
:-) :lol:

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Raghu sir

I think Duryodhana accepted Karna as his friend even before Karna could prove his skills ( remember that display day )
I dont see any vested interest here by Duryodhana

Pl enlighten me here

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No, Duryodhana only saw and met Karna during the archery competition, it was Shakuni who told Duryodhana to make Karna his friend, it was the wicked Shakuni indeed!

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This is Common in any war fare, you are right Arjuna single handedly defeated the Kauravas, including Karna, but Karna single handedly defeated Pandavas for the last 5 days he Commanded the Kauravas!

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Raghu machi ! That is not 5 days.. It is only 2 days in which he commanded his side !
Pithaamagar - 10 Days
Dhronaacharyar - 5 Days
Karna - 2 Days
Salliyan - 1 Day
Total - 18 Days ! Please correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with your views regarding Karna.. Ofcourse Karna is a better warrior than Arjun.

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Originally Posted by Raghu

No, Duryodhana only saw and met Karna during the archery competition, it was Shakuni who told Duryodhana to make Karna his friend, it was the wicked Shakuni indeed!

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Could be ! But a person like Duryodhana (the prince) need not accept a person (who is son of a chariot driver) as his friend.

He could have made him as one of his subordinates or some other person by giving him the same kingdom.

But he accepted him as his friend rather than blindly following the advices / misguidance from elders like Kirubaacharya or others that being a king he should not do that. Hope I am clear. I think Duryodhana excelled here in breaking the tradition here :)

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

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This is Common in any war fare, you are right Arjuna single handedly defeated the Kauravas, including Karna, but Karna single handedly defeated Pandavas for the last 5 days he Commanded the Kauravas!

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Raghu machi ! That is not 5 days.. It is only 2 days in which he commanded his side !
Pithaamagar - 10 Days
Dhronaacharyar - 5 Days
Karna - 2 Days
Salliyan - 1 Day
Total - 18 Days ! Please correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with your views regarding Karna.. Ofcourse Karna is a better warrior than Arjun.

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Selva Anne

PERFECT . :D

I think Karna was the commander for just 2 days after Drona fell
Your listing of days is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

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Originally Posted by Raghu

No, Duryodhana only saw and met Karna during the archery competition, it was Shakuni who told Duryodhana to make Karna his friend, it was the wicked Shakuni indeed!

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Could be ! But a person like Duryodhana (the prince) need not accept a person (who is son of a chariot driver) as his friend.

He could have made him as one of his subordinates or some other person by giving him the same kingdom.But he accepted him as his friend rather than blindly following the advices / misguidance from elders like Kirubaacharya or others that being a king he should not do that. Hope I am clear. I think Duryodhana excelled here in breaking the tradition here :)

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Selva Anne :D

Golden words ! what you have mentioned here.

True. Duryodhana could have easily made him his Dhalapathi instead of a King .

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

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Originally Posted by Raghu

No, Duryodhana only saw and met Karna during the archery competition, it was Shakuni who told Duryodhana to make Karna his friend, it was the wicked Shakuni indeed!

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Could be ! But a person like Duryodhana (the prince) need not accept a person (who is son of a chariot driver) as his friend.

He could have made him as one of his subordinates or some other person by giving him the same kingdom.But he accepted him as his friend rather than blindly following the advices / misguidance from elders like Kirubaacharya or others that being a king he should not do that. Hope I am clear. I think Duryodhana excelled here in breaking the tradition here :)

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Selva Anne :D

Golden words ! what you have mentioned here.

True. Duryodhana could have easily made him his Dhalapathi instead of a King .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

Selva Anne
PERFECT . :D
I think Karna was the commander for just 2 days after Drona fell
Your listing of days is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT :thumbsup:

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Nakeera Thanks ! :)
Yup.. Karna - Dhuryodana bond is one of the interesting things in this great epic.

Lord Krishna's attempts to pull karna to the Pandavaa's side failed miserably because of this :)

i am glad, very very glad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

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But he accepted him as his friend rather than blindly following the advices / misguidance from elders like Kirubaacharya or others that being a king he should not do that. Hope I am clear. I think Duryodhana excelled here in breaking the tradition here :)

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indeed, Karna and Dhuriyodhana friendship TRULY the greatest

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raghu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by selvakumar

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But he accepted him as his friend rather than blindly following the advices / misguidance from elders like Kirubaacharya or others that being a king he should not do that. Hope I am clear. I think Duryodhana excelled here in breaking the tradition here :)

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indeed, Karna and Dhuriyodhana friendship TRULY the greatest

:clap: :clap: :clap:

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Raghu Sir

No doubt the friendship between Karna & Duryodhana was an epic by itself

One small digression here :

Rama with Guhan ( not a king )

What is your opinion ?

HI all wait wait....I hear lot of voices, saying Arjuna is inferior almost to all. One says, Arjuna inferior to Karna, Arjuna inferior to Ashwathama, Arjuna inferior to Ekalvya...what is happening here.....enna du idu siru pulla thanamaa irukku,,,....?:)

Ok fun apart.....B.R. Chopra's Mahabharatha shd not be taken as a good source of Bharatham. Vyasa Bharatham translation or Cho's Mahabharatham pesugirathu will be a best bet...

I am not a great fan of Arjuna. If you wanna ask me , I am fan of SriKrishna the super hero, Bhishma the great and Drona the great, who incidentally happens to be my ancestor.

First addressing the 5 curses of Karna....(please refer Raghu's post) Karna's defeat to Arjuna (without the direct aid of Krishna) was before getting these 5 curses. So Arjuna still fairs well.

Karna' s unleash havoc on the last 5 days of war, was not very considerable. I dont say, he was a dummy. Karan was indeed and equally good warrior as Arjuna so, he did what Arjuna could have done or a bit less. But the real Havoc was done by Bhishma and more from Drona.

The beauty in Mahabharatham is that Arjuna never considered Karna as his enemy, but an opponent. But Karna considered Arjuna as his enemy.

Regarding Karna and Dhuryodhana friendship....media, films and poets have exaggerted this issue so much. Many thinks that Dhuryodhana offered out of his greatness....as per Bharatham, it was not. Actually on the show-day of kauravas and Pandavas, by all means, Arjuna's and Bhima's valour were exemplary and people seemed to enjoy it very much. When Karna came in to challenge, Krupa told that that was not an open competetion and it was exclusively for the scions of Kuru vamsam, to show their people and parents what they have learnt, and it was not becuz of castiest semtiemtns or something....

Out of jeolousy, Dhuryodhana was already dying and he badly wanted someone to counter Pandavas. Karna came at the right time and Dhuryodhana used him and moreover, he believed that Karna is one power unit to counter Arjuna, which is indeed truth, and that is why he wanted Karna to be on the Top...

We should give notice to an issue here....When Karna was made the king of Anga, the elders in the family accpeted him. This is to ascertain that in olden days, Varna was praticed according to Job and not by birth!

Dear Srivatsan

If Karna and Duryodhana friendship was exaggerated, so is Arjuna's skills, yes, I agree Bhishma Pithama and Dronacharya created more havoc than Karna.

But There is No way Arjuna would have won the war without Killing Karna in a Yuth Adharma, all these 6 curses on Karna , Favoured Arjuna.

The other yuth adharma is the killing of Abhimanyu by the Kauravas, including Angakraj Karna!

Then as matter of revenge Karna's son was killed by Arjuna in Yuth adharma way..

The Entire Pandavas won the battle by deceit and wickedness, They moral behind this is to ' To keep Dharma alive, there is nothing wrong in using adharma to keep dharma in Control'.

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Originally Posted by Raghu

If Karna and Duryodhana friendship was exaggerated, so is Arjuna's skills,

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Mr. Raghu, I take "Jaya" written by Vysa as my reference....and not poems. Defintely, as per Mahabharatham, Karna is not all that herioc when compared to Arjuna. Arjuna was a real hero, and Vyasa has not exeggerated any one's character, including that of Sri Krishna

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raghu

But There is No way Arjuna would have won the war without Killing Karna in a Yuth Adharma, all these 6 curses on Karna , Favoured Arjuna. .................................................. ..............................The other yuth adharma is the killing of Abhimanyu by the Kauravas, including Angakraj Karna!

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Is it Yudha Dharma or yudha Adharma,....was it intentional....or typo? Ok Arjuna wouln't have won Karna sans these 6 curses.But according to MahaBharatham, even with those 6 powers that Karna had lost, Karna couldn't have won Arjuna

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raghu

Then as matter of revenge Karna's son was killed by Arjuna in Yuth adharma way..

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I dont think, Arjun killed Karna's So in an Adharmic way....if, So plz show proof from Vyasam Bharatham...
Infact, even when Karna's chariot was struck, Arjuna stopped fighting., It is Krishna who confused Arjuna to kill him, reminding Arjuna of Karna's role in Abhimnyu!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raghu

The Entire Pandavas won the battle by deceit and wickedness, They moral behind this is to ' To keep Dharma alive, there is nothing wrong in using adharma to keep dharma in Control'.

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Sorry...I dont accept this stmt fully. I accept that they had to chose the Adharmic way to defeat big shots like Bhishma or Drona., but not as whole.

Srivatsan

If you have doubts on the way the Pandavas eliminated / annihilated the Kauravas,
well I can write an essay on this.

Take a sample :

While Karna was trying to lift the chariot wheel which was dug deep ( dont say that it was a curse & all ), under instructions from his Master Krishna, Arjuna cut Karna's head

ITS A SHAME ON THE PART OF A KSHATRIYA . DISGUSTING

The way Jayathratha was killed is another classic case of deceit

How Drona was silenced to Yogic posture is history and well known to all.
The greed for land made Dharmaputra ( of all the persons ) to utter a falsehood which made Drona lose all his interest in life

Srivatsan

I have just given a few examples

[quote=Raghu]="srivatsan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raghu

The Entire Pandavas won the battle by deceit and wickedness, They moral behind this is to ' To keep Dharma alive, there is nothing wrong in using adharma to keep dharma in Control'.

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Sorry...I dont accept this stmt fully. I accept that they had to chose the Adharmic way to defeat big shots like Bhishma or Drona., but not as whole.[/quote:c0009f8031]

WHAT :twisted:

Read Mahabaratha again back home dude :evil:

Right from the great grandsire Bheeshma to Duryodhana, the ridiculous Pandavas resorted to ADHARMIC MEANS / INGLORIOUS MEANS TO ELIMINATE KAURAVAS

The list is huge :

1. Bheeshma
2. Drona
3. Karna
4. Poorisiravas
5. Duryodhana

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

Srivatsan

The way Jayathratha was killed is another classic case of deceit

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If Jayathratha can hide himslef the whole day as coward, then the tactics Krishna used can also be employed. Moreover, Jayathratha doesn't qualify for a "Veera" looking at his hisotry on those 10 days of war.

I second your opinion about the way, Karna, Drona and Bhisma were eliminated...the argument is, Pandavaas, dint go by Adhrmic way in the whole of the war. After-all why shd Krishna Stand with them all along, becuz they had Dharmam with them......So one cant say, it was a wholly adharmic war.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nakeeran

Read Mahabaratha again back home dude :evil:

Right from the great grandsire Bheeshma to Duryodhana, the ridiculous Pandavas resorted to ADHARMIC MEANS / INGLORIOUS MEANS TO ELIMINATE KAURAVAS
.......5. Duryodhana

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Cool dude.....regarding Dhuryodhana....Bheema, vowed to break his ties in the war...remember on the day of Drowpathi's vastrabharanam....Bheema said, he will break Dusshasana's heart and Dhuryodhana's ties...unfortunately, it is against Gadhayudha rules....but...rest of 99 kauravas were killed in a fair fight only....

I rpt Nakkeeran....I dont say Pandavas won the war in a purely Dharmic way...they did follow Adharmic ways...but that doeasn't mean they dont have valour....

Srivatsan

THE COWARD PANDAVAS WOULDNT HAVE WON THE WAR BUT FOR KRISHNA's GUILES & THE NEGATIVE ( ADHARMIC ) METHODS ADOPTED BY THEM TO ELIMINATE THEIR ARCH RIVALS

Are you aware ,Drona was about to use Brahmastra & this made the Pandvas to utter falsehood

I REPEAT, THE PANDVAS WOULDNT HAVE BEATEN THE KAURAVAS ON DIRECT COMBAT .

AFTER HAVING SUFFERED HEAVILY FOR 9 DAYS AGAINST BHEESHMA , THEY HAD TO RESORT TO WICKED WAYS ( YOU MAY SAY ITS SMART WAY )

Again, on Duryodhana's end, the whole world knows that he was the best amongst the lot on Mace fight & even his guru Balarama had acknowledged it

It was Krishna who signalled to Bheema by reminding his vow. Else Bheema would have been finished shortly.

FOR ALL THE EVILS OF THE KAURAVAS, AS THEY FOUGHT AND DIED LIKE TRUE KSHATRIYAS, THEY WERE SENT TO HEAVEN