Yeah I remember that interview. Was searching for that online and landed upon this interview. An interesting one for sureQuote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Printable View
Yeah I remember that interview. Was searching for that online and landed upon this interview. An interesting one for sureQuote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Geniuses are mostly quirky and RAJA takes the cake for "foot in the mouth" syndrome . Anyways his music is sweeter and that should be the sole reason for us to celebrate him
I think the tamil translation of what he wanted to say would be "naa solliya ivanga munnera poraanga?", which is not so bad.
Another interesting interview is the one that appeared on bbc tamil long time ago. I also feel that IR basically has a few ideas/answers for certain things/questions, and says the same thing in every interview (his answer for choosing raagas for songs, for instance, has been repeated several times).
and that 'Paravai parakrathu' anecdote is also oft repeated :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ananth222
Audio of Bhagyadevata likely to release in first week of April:
http://entertainment.in.msn.com/sout...mentid=2372149
thanks,
Krishnan
You cant call that "anecdote". Its is his concept of how music should evolve...he says music should happen as naturally as the bird flies... of course he repeats that often...Quote:
Originally Posted by rajasaranam
Also its a matter of contradiction that a person who believes natural, spontaneous outcome and not conscious about the process makes music which is often rigid in structure almost like a mathematical formula....
eagle,
I agree with you on the mathematical precision of his music. I wouldn't call it a contradiction. I would probably call it a paradox. By all the available evidence Raja does seem to compose every song spontaneously yet his mind is able devise everything according to certain precision. No clue on how he is able to do that.
I am neither a musician nor a someone who learns music but still I am able to feel the precision in his work. The thought that comes to my mind whenever I hear any of his songs is the word 'mathematical precision'. Even in his works which we may not like or appreciate much, I see a lot of precision. There is something either in the way he thinks or in the way things come to him spontaneously, which this precision to the fore. Very difficult to explain what I mean.
Probably music also follows some laws of nature - only certain sequence of notes seem to be considered music and the really good ones stay in your head..just like numbers ..if you can see a pattern in them you remember. The trajectory of an object thrown up in the air is a parabola. When matter disappears energy created in mc**2 and the list goes on..If IR is mathematical..think about the guys who devised the mElakartha system of raagams !!!
I think IR just starts of with some swaras from a given raagam and then probably for him the composition "just falls into place". In the recorded version of a compositional exercise...kaRRil varum geethamE..as soon as IR sings the tune..vaali says ha..kalyani ..and IR responds .."aamaam annE". So the man is BSing when he says he does not pick a raagam..or maybe he start on a few notes..then he probably corrects course to certain swaras etc..which happens to be in a raagam..the fact that he knows the raagams well gives him no alibi..or maybe these things happen so fast in his head..he claims he is not consciously doing it..
Hi Kiru,
Howdy. I was thinking abt the same thing.. But could it be that he creates the peice and then realizes the structure/Raaga and formulates the rest of it based on that.. I remember when i met him several years ago and we asked him about the rare raaga's that he has ventured, he said the same thing .." Ithellam nan pre-meditate pannni pannathilla.or something to that effect."
Also when he composes, he only does the first few lines for the lyricist to pen the words right.. So the pattern evolves first, then the recognition about the pattern/raaga and then he composes/improvises the rest of the song to fit that structure .. again this is my guess.. i have not seen a complete composing session...
maybe..i do not know..but very interesting topic and it will be curious to understand how this progress works..
many of the songs he has done, the raaga fits so well to the situation..It cannot be sheer coincidence every time.. probability does not work that way..
Cheers
MSK
To a guy like me who does not know anything about raaga or western musical systems (I remember subbudu once said raaja is real raaja in western music) how his music appears mathematical? Mostly his interlude arrangements makes me think so... It never fails to impress me albeit bad lyrics(the ones that creates a sudden desire :hammer: to meet the lyricist) , repeated situations...Quote:
Originally Posted by kiru
(BTW can interludes also follow a particular raaga? )
I agree with you music nature analogy.. but in a different way..many people have told and i also experienced that even the most boisterous of his compositions never disturbs you. it just becomes part of the environment and at times you are almost unaware of it.
Sometime back i read a book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" The central idea in that book is inquiring two aspects of human nature romantic and rational. Romantic (not the romanticism charu is accusing raaja of :) ) in the sense the wholesome experiences.. zen like .. rational in the sense the inner workings, mechanics analysis of everything... he tries to see whether both can co exist at a moment and concludes that highest quality is possible when it does.
All the artists, writers, musicians falls into either of this two qualities or inclined to be either too romantic or too ratioanl... this applies to even ordinary mortals like us...
I know one guy :wink: achieved a perfect combination of the two thus brought a highest quality in his creations...
Good posts by Kiru, MSK and eagle. I completely agree with Kiru's observation
IR has reached such a level of consciousless competency that music comes naturally to him and falls in its place without any wasted notes or "aba swarams". His music is akin to a flow of serene stream, with no jerks and no running inspate. May be he doesnt decide on a raga for composing, but the musical patterns that cross his mind during that magical moment conform to a particular raga like "sudha dhanyasi" or "mayamaLavagowlai" etc. Recalling his new raga invention during ARR felicitation, IR does bother about what raga his composition fits into, may be after and not before. Raja himself states that good music adheres to laws of mathematics like "kaala pramaanam"
Infact, some of the ideas too, like shruthi-bhedham etc, occur naturally. He doesnt have it as an agenda, to showcase something outstanding but does it in a very non-challant manner. exceptions could be only when the situation demands a change in the colour or mood of the song, he might switch to a different raaga. but mostly, music just flows. and at a very broad level, it is the same for most composers - music just coming in. Thats why some songs (by every composer) have parallels in other songs (by them). just like how you can sometimes predict the tune/beat played by a classic instrumentalist, sometimes, we can predict the same about some songs of composers. and it doesnt mean repetitiveness, it is just logical for that composer to end that particular tune that way, according to his style. it comes naturally to him.
it is very true in the case of IR too... be it any music, it just comes to him...like a stream
Could not something about the situation he composes for count for most of his musical decisions?
In independent albums, he has leaned heavily on the masters. His 'How to name it' has a glorifying argument of unity between Thyagaraja's 'Thulasi dala' and Bach's orchestral works, both spiritually inspired and driven with the same bhava.
His 'I love mozart' was a direct praise of mozart's music created in typical mozartian fashion.
Like poets praise poets in poetry, Raja has praised Thyagaraja, Bach and others in their own musical form in these albums.
Now for this, he chooses a musical strain from their works that identifies them 'uniquely' and creates strands with precision and care to bring them in one strand without 'shruthi bedham' - (recall sruthi matha and layam pitha) This is to me his underlying genius. Once you have the strand in the mind ready, inspired by the central theme of musical work, if it is a song in film, then the situation and characters, if it is an independent album, the theme of it (recall India 24 hours ), then all he sets about doing it is to avoid things that are out of place there (che che idhu sariya varaadhu in thiruvasagam putril vaazh aravum song), normalizing it to the point he is left with just the bare minimum of notes that expresses the feel and theme succintly. Probably that is why we feel it is so precise and a great example of being minimalistic while not sacrificing the grandeur.
I think all of us who have listened to IR a lot are on the same page here. Whether it is people like me who are music ignoramuses or knowledgeable people here.
In the ceremony referred here, IR's reference to BMK's 27 notes etc show how technical he is. He is a much more serious composer than other film music composers, to understate it. I think Kamal called him isai vingnani. I think this is a very very astute observation. NOt only he is able to compose in the indian music paradigm (which I call "linear") but also in the Western paradigm of harmonies and more specially counterpoints/counter harmonies. In the Italian tour CD, he plays a 3-note composition linearly and then says, "idhai orchestravukku piricuhu koduththa eppadi irukkumnu kElunga". So a linear composition is broken into multiple parallel strains/thread of music. People here who are into software, will understand the challenges in multi-threaded programmaing, same sort of challenges exist in music too. More later.
From Guitar Prasanna's article on IR ( found here: http://www.raaja.com/Rv-prasanna.pdf )
Nothing brought it out better than the speeches during the ARR felicitation - compare IR's speech full of music terms, with Harris Jeyaraj's speech about keyboards and manuals... ramarkable!Quote:
“Have you written invertible counterpoint up a tenth?” Raaja (I am taking the liberty to call him affectionately as “Raaja” since he is after all, a “Raaja” in what he does!) has asked me this question a few times– a question I don’t encounter much, at least in India. In an age where most musicians (of course only in India!) spend their time reading the latest software manuals rather than reading books on harmony, counterpoint, orchestration or Carnatic ragas or whatever, Raaja is and has always been an anachronism.
Thanks for the article Ananth. Found it to be quite nice.
Its quite fascinating if you try to explain music in non musical terms...Quote:
Originally Posted by kiru
In many ways Raja is very similar to Tyagaraja. Many people swear that Tyagaraja's compositions are as spontaneous as you can get. At the same time, great musicologist like S Ramanathan and S R Janakiraman marvel at the fact that Tyagaraja adhered so strictly to the grammar and in some cases defined the grammar. There was a combination of precision and spontaneity in his compositions. Though Raja deals with a different form of music, I see the same combination of spontaneity and precision in Raja's works.
"THE WORLD OF MUSIC" journal reviews Ilaiyaraaja's "THIRUVASAGAM - A CLASSICAL CROSSOVER"
http://www.vwb-verlag.com/Katalog/m816.html
Reviewed by Hollie Longman
irir123, congrats on another achievement. But just one thing to clarify. Thalaivar has done symphony, India 24 Hours,miss world 1996(music) and a orchestral piece for a international music festival just two years back. I feel he does have recognition amongst global musicians just that we do not hear of it that much. :?
The symphony never got released and the only people who know abt it are ppl like us who have been TOLD abt the symphony and a few ppl associated with the symphony, who are not agents and have no compulsion to spread the word abt the same! it would have been a different story had it been released through a label like Sony et al!
India 24 Hrs is not known to ppl even in TN, besides maybe a few hundered who visit this forum or maybe in IR's yahoogroup!
the orchestral piece for the festival was in 2004 and not 2 years ago - and even that does not find mention anywhere in sites that should be carrying the items!
the whole point in getting reviews in authentic musicology journals is to have a permanent record of sorts
we cannot forever live under the 'illusion' that IR is known everywhere
IRIR123,
I find a good narration of the album.
They have described well about the sounds they hear in the tracks, the usages, orchestral ornamentation, how things are put together etc.. , pointed some historical periods for a track etc..
But I don't find the following.
What do they remember about the musical that is UNIQUE after they finished?
what is the mood that they hear in their mind or what the musical work make them think or learn
something from it. Don't you think, it will add more value?
I supported enthusiastically IR's Thiruvasagam album.
But When MSVTIMES introduced me the thiruvasagam - ponnoosal by Shri.MSV which was done long back in a traditional style like Krishna Gaanam or subramanaya bhujangam etc... my mind and manasu liked it better for a devotional mood (That's my musical taste!) for its healthy rhythms, resonance and expressive vocals.
IR and MSV worked in totally different style though for me MSV delivers HIGHER emotional satisfaction LIKE his krishna gaanam... I seem to listen Ponnoosal often than TIS these days.
COMPARISON TO BETTER KNOWN SIMILAR WORKS, SIMILAR STYLE OF MUSICIANS & particular usage of the element of music which is different or effective way etc.. will get more attention to TIS-Ilayaraja, don't you think? We need to be careful though, some artists may not like it. :)
Same time they can do in a respectful manner with out hurting anybody's feeling.
If you submit for GRAMMY- world music awards, they will compare with the peer's similar works... then they decide why is it BEST to give AWARD!
vinatha. :)
baroque - if we start expecting them to write exactly what we perceive and expect them to perceive as well, then we might as well write a review and send the same for publication somewhere!
the CD was sent to the journal and they sent it out to someone in their regular roster of reviewers who did the review, and thats about it!
IR is unique to you, me, us coz we grew up listening to him! hence we are 'emotionally' attached to his music - thats fair
but its unfair, impractical to expect everyone from the West to appreciate his music the same way we do! we must also keep in mind that ppl in the West have a much more objective way of looking at things - for instance, how many Indian reviewers would have mentioned the use of 'a capella' in 'Polla vinaiyen' ?? or the mention of asymmetric musical elements (referring to Indian raagas) alongwith harmonies in "poovar senni mannan" ??
check the reviews of TiS by Indian reviewers, most of whom are fans who simply vent out their emotions in the form of 'oh, it went into my soul' 'its amazing' 'its mind-boggling' 'its phenomenal' etc etc!
we dont want that any more - what we need is a proper objective review from musicologists who know what they are writing and a language which westerners can easily identify with!
It might be devoid of emotion, but thats the way things work elsewhere - and we better be prepared for all of that - and thats the most professional way of doing things as well, if we want IR's works to be recorded and recognised for a long time to come
living in the safe cocoon of our instinctive, knee-jerk emotions is not the way to go! such reviews give us an understanding as to how IR's genius is working to create such emotions in us! its all upto us to discern the same - as fans, IMHO, we should evolve and mature too
Will a Grammy nomination have to be made the same year, the album got released/produced. Can it be nominated after a few years?
I don't think that the spiritual aspects or analysis of mental effects would find a place in a technical article like this one. Maybe other journals on spirituality and music and emotions can deal with that. Personally I feel Indian listeners put way too much emphasis on the perceived spiritual effects of the arts. And I feel IR would have achieved much more if his music was not so ruled by his spiritual endeavors.Quote:
Originally Posted by baroque
btw, this is my favorite line from the article::2thumbsup:Quote:
One might expect the song to sound chaotic due to its vast contrasts in musical style, however, order is established through Ilaiyaraaja's discipline in using musical classifications in their conventional forms. He does not change either the "Western" or "Indian" sounds, but adapts the contexts in which they appear in order to achieve a sense of continuity.
irir123 & anand,
EAST or WEST... we listen music
emotionally, intellectually and physically.
that's why I was curious about the missing emotional part.
otherwise it is just a narration of a musical content.
Comparison is a part of the review as well.
If they can name few IR's peers works, how IR fairs against them GOOD, BAD and UNIQUE will be fantastic too.
:)
GREAT work you are doing.
love you, vinatha. :)
When the CDs were sent to FILM SCORE MONTHLY, the reviewer had absolutely no idea as to who the composer was, or what the music was all about!!
I simply left it to them to review the same in whichever way they thought it fit and thats how the review came out
all these spiritual/metaphysical/bhakthi elements cannot be described, since they are in the mystical realm and are subjective and hence no attempt can ever be made to 'quantify/quantitate' them in the crude sense of the same
from that perspective, these reviews bring a different set of views on IR's music by people who have never listened to him, heard of him before!
The emotional part is OK when described by an individual - but the reviewer has a responsibility in describing the CD in a generic sense, that will be instantly accessible to scholars/students of musicology!Quote:
Originally Posted by baroque
just kidding, but the emotional part is best left to front bench viewers and others in a movie hall who get shaken/stirred watching PVasu style amma and thali sentiments in our films! or fans who throw coins, papers, confetti in halls (like Alankar, kamala etc in Chennai) when their favorite stars come onscreen!
objectivism is the hallmark of any well-written critique of works of art in the West - collective emotionalism rests mostly in the domain of evangelical subjectivism!
A good review always expresses the EMOTIONAL PART along with TECHNICAL and PHYSICAL content. That's my understanding. :)
whatever...
you are doing good. :) vinatha.
baroque - I think you are missing the point - how can you describe 'emotions' ? for ears trained and used to listening to music based on harmonies and very few glissandos (thats wat they call 'gamakas/brighas' in the West), Indian classical music often sounds even funny for the first time listener! that being the case, how in the world do you expect them to 'understand' the 'emotional' element in the musical sense ??
if you were to listen to Handels Messiah or Vivaldi's Four Seasons, without anyone telling you what those tracks mean, can you describe the emotions they invoke ??
its a cultural thing that will take time to sink in
I was only curious to know their emotional perspective. No big deal. :)
They review WORLD MUSIC. They may have wider exposure.
Aruna Sairam, L.Subramanyam, Ali akbhar Khar, Zakir Hussain, Ravi Shankar, Jasraj, Shiv Kumar Sharma etc.. WELL RESPECTED Indian musicians and they command HUGE respect from WESTERN audiences and music experts.
They have released several albums collaborating with western artists both classical and contemporary in big labels.
How do they review Yanni instrumentals like YANNI LIVE AT THE ACROPOLIS etc.. or appreciate Persian music?
********************************************
:ty: :ty: irir123 for reminding me Vivaldi - Four Seasons. :)
It's been long, I took time this morning to dig cds collections pushed way back or didn't check out for some time, forwarded some visibly .. :D
Ghulam abbas khan - tabala,
Fabulous DAVE Brubeck's Jazz track. :bluejump:
MOZART- Symphony No. 40 in G minor
Hayden: Symphony No.104 in D major
Beethoven: Symphony no. 9 in D minor, OP.125, CHORAL.
KENNY G Breathless.
THE VERY BEST OF EAGLES--hotel California :swinghead: , on the border, james dean, the best of love etc..
TOO MUCH MUSIC TOO LITTLE TIME!
vinatha. :)
Has the review been taken off ? I dont see a areview in this link now !Quote:
Originally Posted by irir123
MumbaiRamki
article can be downloaded from here
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c...4e75f6e8ebb871
It may amount to sacrilege .. tyagaraja never had any commercial pressures... BTW another aspect of raja's music is the expression of subtle of emotions.... i dare challenge that no one in tamil film music capable of doing that... it was really a era of subtlety with the lyrics of vairamuthu and the music of raaja... when i think of that particular aspect i remember songs from "un kannil neer vazhinthaal" ....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
Thyagaraja had terrible financial pressures..But he would not budge under it and sell his talent. He lived as a very simple poor soul till the end.
His samadhi at Thiruvaiyaru stands as simple as the saint..One wouldn't believe that this is the place which is visited by greatest vidwans every year !
eagle,
My intention was not to compare. The basic thing which I am in awe of is the fact that two great composers, in different genres, are accepted both as very spontaneous composers and also the most precise !!! It is like their brain is hard wired for the precision, which never leaves them even in the most spontaneous of times. No offense meant to anyone but compare it with the other music directors of today like Rahman, Harris or Yuvan. All of them work a lot on their compositions, chiseling to get the right sounds, but in many of their compositions I don't find the sort of precision that I find in Illayaraja's compositions. (It is a very difficult point to argue this point because I can't define what I mean by this precision. I can only feel it)
Amitabh's interview in "The Hindu":
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2009/04/05/...0550060200.htm
"Do tell briefly about your film that’s been shot in Penang…
The film is “Paa”, as in an endearing form of addressing your father. It stars Abhishek, Vidya Balan and myself. It is being directed by R. Balki who directed me in “Cheeni Kum”, that delightful film two years ago. Balki is a creative genius from the ad world. This is his second film. Our director of photography is from the south too, another genius, PC as he is commonly called, P.C. Sriram and we shall be having music from the great Ilayaraja, also from Chennai. That is all I am authorised to speak about the film at the moment."
thanks,
Krishnan
"இளையராஜாவின் இசை பற்றிக் கருத்துச் சொல்ல, இசை தெரியாவிட்டாலும் ரசனை உள்ளம் வேண்டும்"
http://www.thinnai.com/?module=displ...26&format=html
Shouldn't Sathyan Anthikad's movie audio be out by now? This is the one starring Jayaram and suppose to release for Visu. Any updates?
Sureshs65, the below link says its likely to release on Apr 23. Audio likely to be released this week.
http://malayalam.galatta.com/enterta..._23_23730.html
thanks,
Krishnan