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kiru,
what is most appropriate translation of sandham in english ( in lay man terms say in a Hindi song, or a Nora Jones song, or is sandham apt or used only in Tamil songs?)
Also Thalam in Tamil songs are rhythm arrangements for the particular song? if Thalam is rhythm pattern, should it be defined strictly and not altered for each specific song?
Prabhudas
"If something can be changed, it cannot be called by that name. In tamil, letters are classified as kuril, nedil and sandham is basically lists the sequence/combination of this. "
Thats only in the written form. When you vocalize the lyrics into a tune, you can change the inherent structure of a line, break a line, elongate a word etc. A classic example always given is the the following song:
avaLukkenna azagiya mugam
avanukkenna iLagiya manan
nilavukkenna iravinil varum
iravukkenna uRavugaL tharum
This was the original lyrics written by Kannadhaasan.
But instead of blindly tuning the lyrics with 3 words/line, MSV wonderfully splits it the following way
avaLukkenna,.....
azagiya mugam avanukkenna,
iLagiya manan nilavukkenna,
iravinil varum iravukkenna,
Now if MSV were to convert this tune into vocal syllables(sandhams) and give it back to Kannadhaasan after say a month or two, even Kannadhaasan wouldnt realize that these were his own sandhams. He would come have come up with an entirely different set of lyrics. They both were creative artistes who played mind games with each other all the time.
ThaaLam is something that is in the composer's hands. He can also have different "nadais" for the same tune/sandham depending on his creativity.
Can you believe that the charaNams of "ponmagaL vandhaaL" were actually written to the tune given by MSV? Notice how the sandhams go in the charanam. Blows you off everytime. He was easily capable of working both ways
I think I understand. (I wish I could listen to the song online. But dont know the name of the movie). Looks like, it is possible to add filler notes, between the notes for which there is lyrics. This is a innovation on the presentation side and I still think it is closely related to the tune setting. The sandham remains the same ie. the beats are determined for 'avalukkena'. Not much leverage there.
Yes, sandham is present in all languages. It is called meter, in English. Listen to 'Twinkle twinkle little star' song in the eponymous movie. The same rhythm/beat pattern, but the tune is different.
Only in our language, the musical concepts are well developed. The kuril/nedil are represented by tha na tha na naa. Traditionally, in TN musical notes were sung only using tha na na. (sa re ga ma pa da ni were later day introductions into our land).
I dont think, MSV's genius is in doubt. He is a master tunesmith. But I think, IR also is good at setting lyrics to tune. He tunes music using the traditional way. Given lyrics, he can immediately break it up for the sandham. Once the sandham is derived. It is a matter of stretching/contracting tha, nas picking on a scale/raagam.
Every MD tries to do something different. Film music is popular music. So change is important. With IR, he has references for every aspect of music. For tunes, it is MSV, for lyrics it is Kannadhasan. With these standards, he goes about trying to innovate. His innovation is to present the tune (almost as good as MSV) but with more western classical music aspects. Because of his goal of trying to embellish the tune with more harmony, he will guitar/piano chords, bass lines, single-note here and there etc. Whenever the song had more chords, I have seen people here (like Srikant) accuse IR of making up the tune from the chords, inherently spoiling the smooth flow of the tune. So some people might think of this as progress/innovation, while others might think of this as 'spoiling the tune'. It is totally two schools of thought in conflict. Personally, I feel, the tunes of MSV flow with more 'ease' than that of IR. But the IR tune will be more catchy and more harmonised. Since I like a more filled out background/harmony and the slightly rhythmic flow I like the music of IR as well. A little bit of 'ease' in the tune has to be compromised for adding the harmony notes/chords.
More later.. (interesting thread)
Here is the link for the song
http://www.raaga.com/channels/tamil/movie/T0000157.html
"This is a innovation on the presentation side and I still think it is closely related to the tune setting. The sandham remains the same ie. the beats are determined for 'avalukkena'. "
You are right. The strict definition of "sandham" refers to the written part which remains the same. However the MD can innovate during the tune setting process like you have mentioned and can alter the lyrical structure.He can break lines in a different manner and elongate/compress certain words to impart a different mood.Instead of sandham I should have used the word "meter" in my earlier post."Meter" is spoken more in the context of length of each note in the tune. Sandham is attributed to the written part.
For example in the song
aththaan, en athhaan, avar ennaithaan
Kannadhasan puts a comma after "aththaan" and hence what does MSV do? While setting the tune, he stretches "aththaaan..." in a yearning sort of way,gives a mini-pause to acknowledge the comma and then proceeds with the rest of the line. But it wont be very obvious to the listener and the tune would still have a natural flow.
" Personally, I feel, the tunes of MSV flow with more 'ease' than that of IR. But the IR tune will be more catchy and more harmonised."
I agree. I dont doubt IR's ability to compose tune for lyrics either. "Mari mari ninne" is a supreme example. I just wish he did more of that. Especially when the quality of lyricists he worked with werent great in the late 80s, asking them to pen the lyrics first would have probably been less of a challenge to them and slightly more of a challenge to IR. When you are used to composing the tune first, after a long time your mind sub-consciously starts giving out tunes that are all inherently set in the same 4/4 beat and has certain kind of predictable patterns. This then carries over to the rhythm patterns too.Atleast when IR did some of those medicore films that didnt provide him any inspiration in the late 80s, he could have adopted pattukku-mettu as some sort of self-imposed challenge. To me, its equivalent to composing a song in a pre-determined raaga. Its an additional constraint that forces the composer to alter his imagination and think in a slightly different way leading to fresh surprises in tune formulation and rhythm pattern.
Vijay, Thanks for your description on those songs of MSV.
Kiru , Thanks.
With my barely minimal music knowledge I agree with your last paragraph, IR indeed lost or losing his experimentation, one reason he mentioned about his lesser interest in film music these days is
" after 825 odd films, adhuve repeatation..a povarudhule enukkum edhuvum pudhusa seyya edhvum ille, adaan non film music le sila albums pannalamanu"
Prabhudas
Hi Vijay,Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
For someone who doesn't no anything about music, this is an awesome explanation. But, I didn't understand the last para about the song "ponmagaL vandhaaL", sandhams in the charanam". can you please explain?
--Thanks.
It is wrong to assume that Raaja creates tune first. In most cases, he creates visual palettes/progression(visual Poetry?) in his mind first and then he creates a tune for the visuals. Nothing but Wind theme music description in the cassette cover is an example of this method.
IMO, this is the best way to compose Indian FILM songs. The exception is when you have poet like Kannadasan transcending the visuals with words. The fact is, there is no poet in 80's who had that talent to consistently transcend the visuals so, it would have been disaster for Raaja to worked with a poet first. Of course, It didn't help the poet that the film song situation were totally crappy for most part of 80's. Simply put, Raaja tune was more powerful than the poetry of 80's and he had talent to create tune in very instrumental and total abstract sort of way. So it was natural Raaja adopted this method more strongly in later period of his career.
There is one more practical reason. Producers mostly had 1 to 2 hrs session to create tunes with Raaja in his peak days. And normally Raaja can create 5 to 6 tunes in 2 hour session but the most poets were not able to come up with lyrics for 5 songs in just 2 hours. So, raaja would create the tune and let the poets take their own time and "figure" out the poetry later.
The main culprit for bad quality of songs is the bad quality of films story/song situation and it is not because of the choice of method made by Raaja.
"IMO, this is the best way to compose Indian FILM songs"
After some point in time this will give way to repetition in rhythms and sandhams as can be seen in many late 80s songs of IR. You have to force yourself to think differently once in a while. Attempting both methods in equal measures gives scope for innovation. It also encourages the lyricist more rather than using him just as a word-filler
"
The main culprit for bad quality of songs is the bad quality of films story/song situation and it is not because of the choice of method made by Raaja."
Bad films and movies have always existed. Good MDs have always found a way to elevate those movies with their music. That includes IR (in his early years for films like Karumbu Vil etc. )
"The fact is, there is no poet in 80's who had that talent to consistently transcend the visuals so, it would have been disaster for Raaja to worked with a poet first. "
True, but he could have tried more. Probably less than 5% of his songs were lyrics first, in my guess. It could have been more like 20%. There were quite a few talented lyricists like Mehta, Muthulingam etc. who werent properly utilized. Instead GA and Vaali ended up penning ordinary songs for IR more often than not.
I understand the practical reason behind the working methods - constraints in sessions time etc. but the loser is art and the listener. One way would have been to avoid those kind of films altogether beyond a point, but we know he didnt.
Thanks senthil.v for making my thoughts more clearer. That was what i wanted to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by senthilv.com
Moreover Most of the times when raja comes up with a tune words are also added to it and he sings out the words to the lyricist [ atleast the first few lines] and there after the lyricist take over and write the full song.
Recently in an interview GA mentioned the first song of VM. Raja was ready with the tune and it was VM's first song for film and when raja Sang out the tune to him VM was dumbstruck and was not able to come up with anything. It was Raja who gave the lead and said 'Ithu oru Pon maalai pozhuthu....' ippa ezhuthunga. rest was history.
How can he stop breathing :!: even when he knows the air is polluted.Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr