Tamil roots of sanskrit words

Òá½õ - ÀÆí¸¨¾¸û.

¦ÀÕõÀ¡Öõ ÀÆí¸¨¾¸û ¾¨ÄÓ¨È ¾¨ÄӨȡ¸ ¦ÅÌ ¸¡Äõ Áì¸Ç¢¨¼§Â Å¡ö¦Á¡Æ¢ÂÇÅ¢ø «øÄÐ ¦ºÅ¢ÅÆ¢î ¦ºö¾¢¸Ç¡¸ ÅÆí¸¢É; À¢ýÒ, ¡áÅÐ ´Õ ÒÄÅ÷ «Åü¨È «Æ¢Â¡Áø ¸¡òШÅìÌõ ¦À¡ÕðÎò ¾¢ÃðÊò ¦¾¡ÌòÐ "þÐ þýÉ Òá½õ" ±ýÚ ¾¨ÄôÀ¢ðÎ, þí¹Éõ ¦ÅǢ£Π¸½¼¨Å¸§Ç þýÚ ¯Ä¸¢ø ¸¡½ì¸¢¨¼ìÌõ - ÅÆíÌõ Òá½í¸¦ÇøÄ¡õ.

±Ø¾¢¨ÅôÀÐ, «Åü¨Èô À¡Ð¸¡òÐ ¨ÅôÀ¾üÌ: «¾ü§¸üÀ, Òá½õ ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÖõ ÒÃò¾ø (= ¸¡ò¾ø) ±ýÛõ ¦º¡Ä¢Ä¢É¢ýÚ §¾¡üÚÅ¢ì¸ôÀ𼧾.
Òá½í¸¨Ç µÐž¡ø Áì¸û ¸¡ì¸ôÀÎÅ÷ ±ýÈ ¿õÀ¢ì¨¸Â¢Öõ, ¸¡ò¾ø ±ýÛõ ¦À¡ÕÙñ¨Á¨Â «È¢óЦ¸¡ûÇÄ¡õ.

Òà + «½õ (Ţ̾¢) > Òá½õ ¬Â¢üÚ.

«½õ ±ýÀÐ ´Õ ¦¾¡Æ¢ü¦ÀÂ÷ Ţ̾¢. ¸¡Ã½õ, §¾¡Ã½õ ±ýÚ ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø þùŢ̾¢ ÅÃ측ñ¸.

¿¡Ç¨¼Å¢ø Òà > Òá ±ýÈ «Ê¡øÖìÌõ, ÀƨÁ ±ýÈ ¦À¡ÕÙñ¼¡Å¾¡Â¢üÚ.


Compare: kaappiyam from kaappu + iyam, kaappu - protection ( a thesis or book to protect and preserve language or literature.)

¬º£÷ > ¬º¢ (¬º£÷Å¡¾õ) ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø.

Å¡úòÐõ§À¡Ð "±øÄ¡õ º£÷¦ÀÈ ¿¼ì¸ðÎõ" " ¡×õ º£Ã¡¸ðÎõ" ±ýÚ Å¡úòÐÓ¸ò¾¡ý, " ¬ - º£÷" ±ýÈÉ÷.

ŢʦÅûÇ¢ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø¨Ä ´ôÀ¢Î§Å¡õ. þÐ, þÄ츽ò¾¢ø "Å¢Êó¾ ¦ÅûÇ¢" , Ţʸ¢ýÈ ¦ÅûÇ¢, Å¢ÊÔõ ¦ÅûÇ¢" ±ýÚ Ó측Äò¨¾Ôõ ¾Ø×õ. ¬¨¸Â¢É¡ø þ¨¾ Å¢¨Éò¦¾¡¨¸ ±ýÀ÷. Ó측ÄÓõ ¦¾¡ìÌ¿¢ýÈÀÊ¡ø Å¢¨Éò¦¾¡¨¸Â¡Â¢üÚ.

¬-º£÷ ±ýÀÐõ ¬É º£÷, ¬¸¢ýÈ º£÷, ¬Ìõ º£÷ ±É Ó측Äò¾¢üÌõ ÅÕõ.

"¬º£÷ ¯ÁìÌ!" ±ýÚ ÜȢɡø, º£Ã¡ÅÐ ¯ÁìÌ! ±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû.

þÐ À¢ý ¬º¢ ±ýÚ ¸¨¼į̀Èó¾Ð.

À¢ý §ÅÚ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸ÙìÌõ ¦ºýÚ ÅÆí¸¢É þ¡ü¸û.

Great, Bis_Mala, your explanation of the origins for "AsIr" - "Asi"!

Dear bis_mala,

I could not follow your message since I last my tamil fonts storage :!: However I may reinstall in my computer soon :!:

One of our hubber friend asked me in my mail box about some of his purana words' roots. I answered in his personal box. I am just reproducing it here also.

We always should take the meaning of the words depending on the passage that contains the theme within it. Then The actual meaning can be very easily derived.The words are sometimes becoming "Aakupeyar" in meaning.

Then finding Etymology of the words shall be easier.

The first rule we have to apply is that any word in its origin should have vowels since vowels are man's first phonetical syllables.

Miraculously, Tamil has preserved its vowel starting words in usage eventhough they turned consonant starting words for various usage later and we have to also note that tamil has withstood long time uninterrupted by phonetically changed tamil of north India (Vadapaal tamil).

If we observe the core meaning of both Vowel starting and pertinent consonant starting cases, it would be same. Then we have to look into "Oru Porut Kilavikal"-synonyms.

In the case of "Sumba / Nisumba" I take the pronounciation as "Samba / Nisamba" and you have to inform me if you find any difference.

'Samba'- is consonant starting word. Am turned sam just like in Ambalam(Am)- Santhai(Sam) both having same core meaning.

'Ampu' was used by man to get some result / benefit (Payan / Payanpaadu / Nalam)

Ampu turned sambu to specify the same meaning. Sambu is God Sivan's name to specify "Nala malip pavan"(Worthful).

Nisampu is opposite to this just like in Saththam-Shabtham- NiShabtham(opposite).

Since Sanskrit is Artificial language this kind of arrangement was made (there is no much vocabulary to specify the opposite / parallel words. For example 'Akal' is used with jalam combined many times to specify nearly 50 various 'Jalam')

Mahi saasur= Mahi+Saa+ Asoor. Hear mahi means earth / world. Asoor means "Uyirmaiyaana"- ever living / energetic / enormous. 'Saa' is as 'Sariyai'

Aka- Akanda- Akalam(breadth)- Akilam-(parantha Ulakam)

Aka-Aki-Maki is the evolution. Note Aki is vowel starting. Maki is consonant starting. Any consonant starting word is of later origin.

Ayir-Uyir- Ayira- Asura is the evolution.

Dumra Lochan = Dumra + ulochu +an

Thumi is from umi and both words means "Thuli(very tiny),Thooral(small drop), Vettu (sudden glimpse)"

Thumi turned phonetically Dumir-Dumra.

'Ul' is the root of 'Ulai' and both means 'alai kintra' (poising / flowing here and there) or showy in some instances like in Ulakam / Ulokam(Metal).

Ulaivu-Uloiyu-Ulochu is the evolution.

'Human Eye' portrays this tendency and hence eye is named as "Ulochan" in Sanskrit.

Eventually, 'Dumra Lochan' means 'Sudden glimpse of eye'.

Hey 'meena Lochani – Meena lochani', Actor Arjun starrer-Vidyasakar music- tamil movie song is an example :!:

f.s.gandhi

FSG sir! thank you so much. I enjoyed reading your post and noted your points.
anbudan b.i.s_mala.
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LAAVANYAM.
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¯Ä¸ò¾¢ø þøÄ¡¾ «ÆÌ!
þó¾ Åð¼¡Ãò¾¢§Ä§Â þøÄ¡¾ - §¾ÊÉ¡ø ¸¡½ì¸¢¨¼ì¸¡¾ ÅÉôÒ!!

ÍÕì¸Á¡¸ì ÜȢɡø, " þÄ¡ «ÆÌ!"
«ÆÌ ±ýÀÐ Á¢¸ò ¦¾Ç¢Å¡¸ ¯ûÇÐ. ¦º¡ü¸¨Çô À¨¼ìÌõ§À¡Ð «ùÅÇ× ¦¾Ç¢Å¢Õì¸ìܼ¡Ð.
´Õ «Õ了¡ø¨Äô §À¡ð¼¡ø ¿ýÈ¡¸ þÕì̧Á!

þÄ¡ «½¢! ¬Á¡õ, «½¢ ±ýÀÐ µ÷ «ÆÌ ÌÈ¢ìÌõ ¦º¡ø¾¡§É!

þÄ¡ «½¢! > þġŽ¢!

¦ÀÂ÷¡øÄ¡ö ¬ì¸¢ §ÀẢâÂ÷¸¨Çܼò ¾¢¨¸ì¸¨ÅòÐÅ¢¼Ä¡§Á!

¬õ!. «Ð§Å ºÃ¢Â¡É µº¨É(§Â¡º¨É), ´Õ "«õ"¨Áô §À¡ðΠŢ¼Âò¨¾ «Ó츢Ţ¼Ä¡õ.

þÄ¡+«½¢+«õ = þġŽ¢Âõ.

±ôÀÊ §ÅüÚ¦Á¡Æ¢ò §¾¡üÈõ ¦¸¡ÎôÀÐ?

þġŽ¢Âõ > Ä¡ÅñÂõ!!

õõõõõ... þô§À¡Ð þÄ쨸 «¨¼óÐŢ𧼡õ! ¡Õõ ¸ñΦ¸¡ûÇ ÓÊ¡Ð, ¿ÁÐ Ä¡ÅñÂò¨¾!!

ulakaththil illAtha azaku!
in-tha vaddAraththilEyE illAtha - thEdinAl kANakkidaikkAtha vanappu!!

surukkamAkak kURinAl, " ilA azaku!"
azaku enpathu mikath theLivAka uLLathu. soRkaLaip padaikkumpOthu avvaLavu theLivirukkakkUdAthu.
oru arunjsollaip pOddAl n-anRAka irukkumE!

ilA aNi! AmAm, aNi enpathu Or azaku kuRikkum solthAnE!

ilA aNi! > ilAvaNi!

peyarssollAy Akki pErAsiriyarkaLaikUdath thikaikkavaiththuvidalAmE!

Am!. athuvE sariyAna Osanai(yOsanai), oru "am"maip pOddu vidayaththai amukkividalAm.

ilA+aNi+am = ilAvaNiyam.

eppadi vERRumozith thORRam koduppathu?

ilAvaNiyam > lAvaNyam!!

mmmmm... ippOthu ilakkai adain-thuviddOm! yArum kaNdukoLLa mudiyAthu, n-amathu lAvaNyaththai!!

ÐÅõ ±ýÈ À¢ý¦É¡ðÎ The suffix 'thva"
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¸Å¢òÐÅõ, þóÐòÐÅõ ±ýÀÉ §À¡ýÈ þýÉ À¢È ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø -ÐÅõ ±ýÈ À¢ý¦É¡ðÎ (suffix) ÅÕ¸¢ýÈÐ. ¾òÐÅõ, ¸¡ÄÉ¢òÐÅõ ±ý¦ÈøÄ¡õ ¾¡Ç¢¨¸¸Ç¢ø ¸¡½Ä¡õ. þÐ ¾Á¢ú - ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢Ä¢Õó§¾ À¢È «Âø ¦Á¡Æ¢¸ÙìÌô ÀÃÅ¢ÔûÇÐ.

«òÐ ±ýÛõ º¡Ã¢¨Â ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ¦¾¡ýÚ ¦¾¡ðÎ ÅÆí¸¢ ÅÕÅÐ. - РŢ̾¢Ôõ «í¹É§Á ÀÆí¸¡ÄÓ¾ø ÅÆí¸¢ÅÕž¡Ìõ. «Ð, þÐ, ±ÕÐ ±Éî ÍðÎô ¦ÀÂ÷ ¦À¡Õð¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¢ø ÅÕÅÐ ÁðÎÁýÚ; «Æ¢òÐ, «¨¼òÐ ±É Å¢¨É ±îºí¸Ç¢Öõ þÐ ¯ûÇÐ. " ´Øì¸òÐ" "Å¢ØôÀòÐ" ӾĢ ¦º¡øġ𺢸ǢÖõ «òÐ þÕ츢ýÈÐ. "¯¨¼òÐ" (=¯¨¼ÂÐ) ±ýÀ¾¢ø Ð ¯ûÇÐ.

«õ Ţ̾¢Ôõ «Èõ, ¾¢Èõ ӾĢ ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø ÅÕõ.

¸Å¢òÐÅõ < ( ¸Å¢+ Ð + «õ) or ( ¸Å¢ + «òÐ + «õ) It does not matter which as both are from Tamiz.

¸Å¢òÐ = ¸Å¢Â¢Û¨¼Â. «õ = ÀñÒ «øÄР̽õ.

¾òÐÅõ ±ýÀÐ:

¾ý > ¾. then ¾ + Ð + «õ = ¾ý ̽õ «øÄÐ ÀñÒ. «Ð ¡¦¾É¢ø ´ýÈý ¯ûÇ£¼¡¸¢Â ̽õ ¬Ìõ.

-ÐÅõ ±ýÈ À¢ý¦É¡ðÎõ ¾òÐÅõ Ӿġ¸¢Â ¦º¡ü¸Ùõ ¾Á¢ú ãÄí¸Ç¢Ä¢ÕóÐ À¨¼ì¸ôÀð¼¨Å.

þô§À¡Ð ÐÅõ ±ýÀÐ "òÅ" ±ýÈ¡¸¢ «Âø ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢ø ÅÄõÅÕ¸¢ýÈÐ.



thuvam enRa pinnoddu The suffix 'thva"
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kaviththuvam, in-thuththuvam enpana pOnRa inna piRa soRkaLil -thuvam enRa pinnoddu (suffix) varukinRathu. thaththuvam, kAlaniththuvam enRellAm thALikaikaLil kANalAm. ithu thamiz - thirAvida mozikaLilirun-thE piRa ayal mozikaLukkup paraviyuLLathu.

aththu ennum sAriyai thamizil thonRu thoddu vazangki varuvathu. - thu vikuthiyum angnganamE pazangkAlamuthal vazangkivaruvathAkum. athu, ithu, eruthu enas suddup peyar porudpeyarkaLil varuvathu maddumanRu; aziththu, adaiththu ena vinai essangkaLilum ithu uLLathu. " ozukkaththu" "vizuppaththu" muthaliya sollAdsikaLilum aththu irukkinRathu. "udaiththu" (=udaiyathu) enpathil thu uLLathu.

am vikuthiyum aRam, thiRam muthaliya pala soRkaLil varum.

kaviththuvam < ( kavi+ thu + am) or ( kavi + aththu + am) It does not matter which as both are from Tamiz.

kaviththu = kaviyinudaiya. am = paNpu allathu kuNam.

thaththuvam enpathu:

than > tha. then tha + thu + am = than kuNam allathu paNpu. athu yAthenil onRan uLLIdAkiya kuNam Akum.

-thuvam enRa pinnoddum thaththuvam muthalAkiya soRkaLum thamiz mUlangkaLilirun-thu padaikkappaddavai.

ippOthu thuvam enpathu "thva" enRAki ayal mozikaLil valamvarukinRathu.

I wanted to write more Mr/Ms/Mrs.(confusion) bis_mala :!: I couldn't do much with my limited time :!:

You are doing perfectly What I expected :!: Continue your posts frequently :!: Lot of hubbers are following you-including me :!:

Since sanskrit is an artificial language, with one tamil root more no. of sanskrit words happened to be evolved. Explore that aspect also in your posts whenever time permits :!: Thanks a lot :)

f.s.gandhi

Miss S~mala. (B.I. initials ).. Thanks for the compliments contained in your post. Best regards.

Dear Miss bis_mala,

There is one more case like this in my business communication in Saudi Arabia to UK.

In UK a company called 'Flexitallic Ltd.'- supplier to our company and a person called Shirley Tolliday whom I have made frequently emails for quotations addressing MR in name for the past six months. Last week that person sent me mail stating that She is Miss and not Mr.

I thought she would have disapointed but she sent me message that she was not upset stating that I must know whom I am talking to which may lead me respecting in its true way.

I believe, I was not making you upset.

Thanks.

f.s.gandhi

Quote:

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I believe, I was not making you upset.

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Dear FSG aNNa. not to worry. not upset.

anbudan

Miss S~mala

[tscii]Dear FSG.

Many Dravidian linguists speak of lexical borrowings by Tamil from Sanskrit. For them, the basis for such thinking is simple. If a word is found in the Sanskrit Lexicon and is also in use in Tamil, then it is assumed that Tamil borrowed it from Sanskrit. The Tamil Lexicon was developed by the then University of Madras based on the Sanskrit Lexicon as to etymology. Hence the Tamil lexicon merely mirrored the Sanskrit Lexicon without independent research for Tamil..

Relying entirely on the opinion-based conclusions Max Muller and William Jones, Sanskrit lexicographers took a firm stand on the antiquity of Sanskrit. Hence for example, when Tamil also had the same word albeit with a slightly different (allegedly “Tamilised”) pronunciation, the Sanskrit lexicographer concluded, ignoring Tamil that it must be a Sanskrit word. All the Dravidian linguistic departments and institutes still follow the Sanskrit lexicon as their gospel. (Since they proceeded on the presumption that Sanskrit was the mother of Indian languages (MST theory prevailed), Sanskrit lexicographer of yesteryears could simply include as Sanskrit all from other Indian languages in his lexicon, the justification being provided by MST)

This was also the reason why Dr Vaiyapuri Pillai of Madr. Uni thought that Valluvar's kuRaL was liberal in borrowing from Sanskrit and it must therefore be a much later work than the Sangam literature. Furthermore scholars belonging to a certain class writing books in the l8c and 19th c ACE said that many words now proven to have Tamil roots were Sanskrit.

We must bear in mind that thus, 18c propositions are now being repeated ( repetition does not make it a fresh piece of evidence ) all over by various independent and salaried Sanskrit, pro-Sanskrit and Dravidian "linguists", powerless to contradict the Sanskrit lexicon even if they wanted to. Furthermore Sanskrit institutes and departments are superior (in organizational setup and lineup) to Tamil (Dravidian) Departments and institutes, whether they are doing linguistic research or not.

Ultimately, all of them are relying on the dates given for Aryan arrival in India, by the early Western historians. Those proposing the falsity of ARYAN INVASION / MIGRATION THEORY have no reason to rely on the estimated dates given by Western historians to date other "documents" such as the Vedas and Upanishads. Their stand also necessitated a fresh explanation and definition for the terms "Aryan" and "Brahmana" and caused a collapse of the theory of their own superiority . The claimed antiquity of Sanskrit also stands without any basis or foundation to support it.

There is really no proof as to the antiquity of Sanskrit. It was also never a "language" spoken by any linguistic group of any given region in India. Why Max Muller and William Jones thought it was a language spoken by any linguistic group of any given region in India is really not known. If Aryan is not a race then whose language is Sanskrit? If then "Indo-European" words in Sanskrit were just borrowed words through contact with old Persians of those days, is Sanskrit still an Indo-European language? (Counter query: Then why certain features of the language are close to Indo-European or Indo-Iranian?)

Whether Sanskrit is an Indian language or Indo-European, why is it called Sanskrit meaning a refined language? What was it refined from? The refined comes from the crude and not the other way round. Where is the unrefined language? What evidence is there to say Prakrit derived from Sanskrit? Answers are also required for all these and many other questions that may arise in the course of our study.

Since there are so many gray areas, the only way to determine whether a word is Tamil or Sanskrit is to examine its roots or possible roots. If the word can be explained by Tamil roots, it is a Tamil word. Sanskrit being a never-spoken liturgical code language, it borrowed from various then existing languages including Tamil to formulate the prayer/liturgy codes. This is the basis on which I intend to carry on my discussion in this and related topics.

Among the various categories of persons in the world, a scholar or linguist is one who is allowed to make any statement in connection with his field, whether true or false. You cannot prosecute him for it if it were wrong. But a doctor or persons of other profession are not so privileged. Thus a doctor cannot knowingly and falsely certify one as having AIDS when he does not have it!! But a linguist can say anything about a word. You cannot litigate on his statement whether you relied on it or not! Do you think otherwise? More so in the field of antiquity of Sanskrit or something where everyone seem to doing scholarly guesswork. Linguistics according to one Western writer, is a faculty to which someone who is not wanted in any other faculty would go!! It is also a field, which has to dance to policies and ideologies. That requires the consumers in the field to be really cautious (caveat)!!

Dear sister Ms. bis_mala, :)

I agree all of your views. When persons like Mr.Vayapuri pillai is there, wrong leading will always happen.

The lexicon makers forgets one thing. When they find a word in Sanskrit they have to ask for more 'Oru porut kilavikal' - synonyms evolved in that language. Sanskrit is dead now. So if they could not find in its literature they have to search sankritized pattern of such word in other indian languages which they cannot.

I find more than 70 % words of hindi is tamil remaining from semetic group which also ends with tamil roots. You can very easily fit tamil sentences into Hindi without changing their pattern.
'Pichasu'(language of demon) which prevailed all over India before paly and prakrit was tamil and "Maayon" worship was followed all over India.

I am learning Arabic now and when I go deeply I understand lot of literary tamil words used there :!: Now I find reading Arabic very easy. :!:

Anybody had better learn chinese and japanese through tamil than English. The process shall be easier.

When tamil dies or turned into some other language and tamilian identity is closed in India perhaps Indian scholars that you noted may accept tamil's motherliness. They have Psychological barrier like other ordinary indian citizens. What to do bis_ mala :?:

The sanskrit proudness among scholars is just like English proudness among masses of India and this is due to its latest accredition in the chronolgy of world history. We need not worry about that. Paavanar led "akara muthlai"- tamil lexicon. We have to follow this way and advance more :!:

f.s.gandhi

Dear FSG

Siva == Sivapu? Rudra means red?

Does this mean Tamils visualised Shiva as very fair in colour?Shiva wears tiger skin.
Parvathi is dark in colour
Vishnu is always dark in colour(wearing yellow cloth)
Lakshmi is fair(red cloth and lotus)
Brahma is also fair in colour.Saraswathi is also fair but wears white cloth only with Vedas and veena in her hands.

I'm surprised at white cloth of Saraswathi as "white" for women in TN meant different connotations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viggop

Dear FSG

Siva == Sivapu? Rudra means red?

Does this mean Tamils visualised Shiva as very fair in colour?Shiva wears tiger skin.
Parvathi is dark in colour
Vishnu is always dark in colour(wearing yellow cloth)
Lakshmi is fair(red cloth and lotus)
Brahma is also fair in colour.Saraswathi is also fair but wears white cloth only with Vedas and veena in her hands.

I'm surprised at white cloth of Saraswathi as "white" for women in TN meant different connotations.

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Aram - Araththam(Raththam)- blood, uruththiram(uru+thiram)Uthiram,Sevappu-Sivappu,Sekkam-Seveil, Sevvazhai, Sevviya - all specifies Reddish colour. Siva is reddish colour in nature. Human skin of black shadowed light fair is called reddish skin.

In 'Tamil's elderiness to world languages thread' I wrote about Arabians-reddish people. The root is 'Aram'.

Hence siva is not fair in colour. But Black with fair shadow. If you see the colour of blood you will come to know.

kadavul- means kada+Ul= "Ul kadantha thanmai" - meyyari nilai.

Without blood there is no breathing. Hence tamil people identified the god as red as "Ul kadantha thanmai".

Parvathi - Sakthi - okay. Vishnu is from 'Vinnu'. He was called 'Maayon'. Maayon worship is mentioned in Tholkappiam. He was 'Aayar' (marutham milk man) God and he was later termed as Kannan. Kan-means black. Karunan-Krunan- Krishnan is the evolution.

Later during 4th century CE Krishna was made as "Avathara Purushar". Elakkumi(Lakshmi) was called 'Nappinai' in tamil culture.

Brahma is from tamil Paraman and when Vaishna culture was on top during 6th century CE Brahma stories were written. Historien P.T Srinivasa Iyengar mentions that 'Foot story'(i.e. third foot measurement -purana) is the later imagination of third "KADALKOL" occured in tamil country. Visit 'History of tamil' column for tamil Gods.

Saraswathi is also a God evolved in Gangai valley civilization(Saraswathi river civilization) or Vedhic culture during 2nd and 3nd Century CE.

f.s.gandhi

wonderful explanation FSG!

Till this time, i took it as if Shiva's colour was fair!

excerpts from Thiru A P MASILAMANI's posts from the topic 'Is Tamil Derived From Sanskrit.'

FORMATION OF THE WORD NAARAYANAN AND ILAKKUMI

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T: viN > vuNNu > borrowed by others as vishNu. (the sky-god).
You know that rain - water comes from the sky!
Thus, prosperity, ilakkumi became the consort of viN.

niiraayinan > naaraayaNan
naaraayaNan > naaraayaNi - (later concept ) consort of naaraayaNan.

Ilakku > ilakkuthal
Ilakku > ilakkiththal
Ilakku > ilakku + (u)m + i (suffix) = ilakkumi.
Ilakku = any symbol, then: a demarcated place, then: any place.
By 1400ACE or so, Skrt took in the word ilakkumi as lakshimi.

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ORIGIN OF THE WORD ILINGAM AND THE WORD IZU

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LINGAM

ilingam > lingam > Skrt: linga, ling.

ilu > ilangu (or ilanku) = shine, emit light.
The term ezutu was derived from izutu.

izu (pull, draw) > izuthu > izuthu. You write by drawing (pulling) the pen or writing equipment towards, away from, and to the left or write. Even the English word draw is similarly formed. The earliest man had to draw pictures first which later evolved into characters and letters of the alphabet. The Tamil term ezuthu and the history of writing in many major languages will prove what the early man did. Examination of language and its terms can unfold to you history that can take you back to thousands of years. .

izu changed to ilu. z>l interchangeability. I have written something about this before, as far as I can remember.

excerpts

ilu > ilingam: (originally) meant a ray of light reaching you from a body above, as though it is pulled or descending towards you. Saiva scriptures say that Sivam is oLi vadivinan. This should have been represented by a elongated cylindrical thing, which later evolved into the present lingam in the temples. The receptor of this ray of light is represented by something surrounding it tightly as if penetrating. That completes the picture of the ray and its reception.

This word ilingam tells you a nice story. ilu + ingu + am= ilingam. Ingu varum oLi vadivu. The root words and the picture are entirely Dravidian..

As everything else, things change and we have ilingam represented as man - woman objects, which may be a different way of depicting the god - man relationship.

ilingam > lingam > Skrt: linga, ling.

ilu > ilangu (or ilanku) = shine, emit light.

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ilingam > lingam > Skrt: linga, ling.

ilu > ilangu (or ilanku) = shine, emit light.

Good, Mr Neduncheziyan. Thanks for bringing up.

Good to know that Vishnu also came from tamil word "vinnu"
and "Krishna" from "kannan"

What about names like "Rama" , "Sita"
Does these names have Tamil Origin too?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bis_mala

ilingam > lingam > Skrt: linga, ling.

ilu > ilangu (or ilanku) = shine, emit light.

Good, Mr Neduncheziyan. Thanks for bringing up.

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emit light?

eruption ... comes to my mind :lol:

áÁ(ý) º£¨¾.

The word evolved as follows from Tamil root word:

" ir" (Tamil rootword) means "darkness", "hours of darkness(night time)".

ir - iravu þ÷ > þÃ× ( vu × suffix ).
ir - iraa þ÷ > þá ( aa ¬ suffix)
(other words with aa suffix: kalaa, nilaa, ulaa and so on ).
ir - iruL þ÷ > þÕû ( uL ¯û suffix )
(other words with uL suffix: aruL, poruL, maruL, theruL ).

Do you recognise the root (ir) giving birth to other words?

ir - iraam - raam. (meaning the dark man. Like Krishna, Rama was also dark.)
ir - irraam - iraaman (Tamil form).

Conclusion: Ram is a northern Dravidian word formed from the Tamil root "ir".

ir - iravi (sun). iruLai avippavan or azippavan. avi = azi, means destroy. avi also means cook. avi (rootword) has several meanings or connotations.

ir - iravi - ravi = sun who destroys darkness.

Original meaning of the word "raam" is : black deity. Sanskritist later composed a new etymology for the word to hide its origin and original meaning.

Seetha is claimed to have come from Sri (Sanskrit) which came from "thiru" (Tamil) which in turn came from "thiraL" collection or collection of riches, accumulations.

It is claimed by Skrt exponents that it evolved as follows: sri devi > sii thEvi > siithaa. But sri has been explained above and it came from Tamil and devi (thEvi ) is a Tamil word also. Devi has been explained before.

Pl note that the English word "accumulations" can also mean riches as in "perpetuities and accumulations". (phrase used in land law).

However, Swami Nyanapragasam said it derived from chezi ¦ºÆ¢, (¦ºÆ¢ > ‚ )). The parent root for both thiraL and chezi is: °. I cannot give it in detail here.

Bebeto:

iruption? no eruption! emitting light is the meaning.

Dear Bis_Mala
Thanks a lot for the explanation.Actually, there is supposed to be a pre-Kamba ramayanam in Tamil which was supposed to be very old.Parts of this are put in Project Madurai by one Mr.Chadrasekharan. Even purananooru uses the word 'rama'.This probably means Rishi Valmiki might have composed ramayanam in Thamizh and also later in sanskrit!!!

Grateful viggop!

Best regards to you.


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Å¡ø vaal = àö¨Á. purity. (vaal has other meanings too. not relevant)

Å¡ÄÈ¢Åý ¿üÈ¡û ¦¾¡Æ¡÷ ±É¢ý. (ÌÈû).

vAlaRivan n-aRRAL thozAr enin. (kuRaL).

val Åø = ÅÄ¢¨Á, strength.

Å¡ø + Á¢Ì+ þ = Å¡øÁ¢¸¢. (àö¨Á Á¢ì¸Å÷).

Åø + Á¢Ì + þ = ÅøÁ¢¸¢ corrupted to Å¡øÁ¢¸¢ = ÅÄ¢¨Á Á¢ì¸Å÷.


þÕû¾£÷ó¾¡÷ = ÓÉ¢Å÷. þÕû§º÷ þÕÅ¢¨ÉÔõ §ºÃ¡¾Å÷, ¦ÅýÈÅ÷.

þÕû¾£÷ó¾¡÷ > þÕû¾£÷ > þÕË÷ > þÕÊ.

û + ¾£ = Ë ( according to grammar ).

þÕÊ > þÕ„¢ > â„¢.

irudi > irushi > rishi.

þí¸¢ÕôÀÐ "þÐ" «øÄÐ þí¸¢ÕôÀ¨Å : " þ¨Å".

þÐ ±ýÈ ¾Á¢ú¡ø. ÁÄ¡ö¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø "þòÐ" (itu) ±ýÚ ÅÆí̸¢ÈÐ.

Á¢¸ô ÀÆí¸¡Äò¾¢ø þíÌ þÐ ±ýÀÅüÚìÌ §ÅÚÀ¡Î¸û þø¨Ä.

þÐ > º¢ò¾¡ù. (º£É¦Á¡Æ¢) þò > º¢ò. = means here.

þ > †¢ > ¬í¸¢Ä¦Á¡Æ¢. here.

þ > º¢òÐ (þí§¸) ÁÄ¡ö¦Á¡Æ¢. situ.

¾Á¢úî Í𦼡Ģ¸û ¯Ä¸ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢ý ±í¹Éõ ¾¢Ã¢ó¾É ±ýÀÐ ¬ö×ìÌâ Ţ¼ÂÁ¡Ìõ.

þÐ ¿¢ü¸, þ¾Ã ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÅÆí̸¢ÈÐ. þÐ ±í¹Éõ «¨Áó¾Ð?

þÐ + «È = þ¾È > þ¾Ã.

þÐ «øÄ¡Áø, þÐ ¾Å¢Ã ±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû. «ôÀÊ¡ɡø "ÁüȨÅ" ±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû.

þ¾Ã ±ýÈ ¾¢Ã¢Òî ¦º¡øÄ¢ø ¯ûÇ «·È¢¨½ Ţ̾¢ÀüȢ ¯½÷× Á¨È§Å, «î¦º¡ø Á¡ó¾¨Éì ÌÈ¢ì¸×õ ÀÂýÀð¼Ð.

¯¾¡¸Ã½Á¡¸, "þ¾Ã Á¡¾Õ¼ý ¿£ ¸Ç¢ì¸§Å¡" ±ýÈ Å¡ì¸¢Âò¾¢¨É §¿¡ì¸×õ.



ingkiruppathu "ithu" allathu ingkiruppavai : " ivai".

ithu enRa thamizssol. malAymoziyil "iththu" (itu) enRu vazangkukiRathu.

mikap pazangkAlaththil ingku ithu enpavaRRukku vERupAdukaL illai.

ithu > siththAv. (sInamozi) ith > sith. = means here.

i > hi > Angkilamozi. here

i > siththu (ingkE) malAymozi. situ - here in Malay.

thamizs suddolikaL ulaka mozikaLin engnganam thirin-thana enpathu Ayvukkuriya vidayamAkum.

ithu n-iRka, ithara enRa sol thamizil vazangkukiRathu. ithu engnganam amain-thathu?

ithu + aRa = ithaRa > ithara.

ithu allAmal, ithu thavira enRu poruL. appadiyAnAl "maRRavai" enRu poruL.

ithara enRa thiripus sollil uLLa aqRiNai vikuthipaRRiya uNarvu maRaiyavE, assol mAn-thanaik kuRikkavum payanpaddathu.

uthAkaraNamAka, "ithara mAtharudan n-I kaLikkavO"" enRa vAkkiyaththinai n-Okkavum.

Do not worry about ra>Ra difference. Historically it was ignored for sometime (stone inscriptions evidence).

Ra is actually a double ra written together with a tail hanging down. Also see how Ra occurs in MalayaLam. Ezuththachchan must have realised this clearly.

Note: It is usual for words to acquire a consonant or lose one when they travel from one language to another and from this side of the border to the other. Example:

chinthu (Tamil/ Northern Dravidian) > hinthu (Hindu)(Iranian) > Hindu > þóÐ (¾Á¢ú)
in-thu (thamiz)

This has been explained by others in Is Tamil derived from Skrt thread. The same rule applies to the words of other languages given in the above post, which are compared to Tamil words.

I want to know the root of 'Subramanyan'.This is another name for Lord Murugan kept only by Tamils.

Dear viggop,


subramaniam
------------------

Í -- ͨ¾ (Tamiz) Íñ½¡õÒ, À¡ø, mortar (¦Åñ¨Á ¿¢Èõ).
Í -- Íò¾õ (white signifies cleanliness )
Í -- Í츢Äõ Skrt. (white) (usage: skrt: Íì¸¢Ä Àðºõ, Í츢Äõ(semen)


ÍôÀ¢Ãͨ¾ - ¸¡ð¦¼Õ¨Áô À¡ø ( ¦Åñ¨Á).
ÍôÀ¢Ãõ - ¦Åñ¨Á, ´Ç¢.

From the above, we have to bear in mind that chu (Í) refers to white or whiteness and purity.

Íñ rootword of Íñ½¡õÒ.

Íñ½õ
Íñ½¡õÒ

Íñ > ÍðÒ (Íñ, + Ò suffix) > ÍôÒ. = white.
ÍôÒ + þÕ + «õ = ÍôÀ¢Ãõ something in which whiteness and/ or purity resides. immaculate! ÍôÀ¢ÃÁïºõ = clean bed, probably of clean white spread.

ÍôÒ(Tamiz) > ÍôÒ subbu (skrt) > subra (skrt).

maNi - Á½¢ = (something pure and precious, e.g. a gem )

subramaNiam - a pure and precious (divine) entity.

Íñ > Í used as prefix in many words denoting purity.


Please note that (sivaththal),* sivappu is pronounced colloquially as suvappu and su Í can also mean redness. According to some researchers, su preceded si in development. Thus it can variously be interpreted that suppu refers to the red deity or ¦ºù§Åû. Either way, chu is the root word and is Tamil.

subramaniam
------------------
The last -am is suffix. Dont' bother about it.

su -- suthai (Tamiz) suNNAmpu, pAl, mortar (veNmai n-iRam).
su -- suththam (white signifies cleanliness )
su -- sukkilam Skrt. (white) (usage: skrt: sukkila padsam, sukkilam(semen)


suppirasuthai - kAdderumaip pAl ( veNmai).
suppiram - veNmai, oLi.

From the above, we have to bear in mind that chu (su) refers to white or whiteness and purity.

suN rootword of suNNAmpu.

suNNam
suNNAmpu

suN > sudpu (suN, + pu suffix) > suppu. = white.
suppu + iru + am = suppiram something in which whiteness and/ or purity resides. immaculate! suppiramanjsam = clean bed, probably of clean white spread.

suppu(Tamiz) > suppu subbu (skrt) > subra (skrt).

maNi - maNi = (something pure and precious, e.g. a gem )

subramaNiam - a pure and precious (divine) entity.

suN > su used as prefix in many words denoting purity..

<quote>
suN > su used as prefix in many words denoting purity..
</quote>

like suprabhatham
supraja(kausalya supraja rama) --- good/pure son

Quote:

---

like suprabhatham
supraja(kausalya supraja rama) --- good/pure son

---

yes! good.

Quote:

---

praja

---

This word is from Tamil piRa = be born.

The word praja is forged by simply adding the ending -jaa or -ja to the Tamil word. (dropping the intermediate "i" so routine in Ta > Skrt )

The evidence points to Tamil being extensively used in the making of Sanskrit!!

Consider the word praja in all its Sanskrit connotations.

procreation , propagation , birth offspring , children , family , race , posterity , descendants , aftergrowth (of plants) , a creature , animal , man , mankind ; people , subjects (of a prince) ; seed , semen

All these meanings of the word praja are still relevant to Tamil root word: piRa.

<quote>
The evidence points to Tamil being extensively used in the making of Sanskrit!!
</quote>

It could be Tamilians who actually created sanskrit to communicate with North Indian people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by viggop

<quote>
The evidence points to Tamil being extensively used in the making of Sanskrit!!
</quote>

It could be Tamilians who actually created sanskrit to communicate with North Indian people.

---

And it was not understood, at all, by those in the north, either.. Ha, what a waste!

"It could be Tamilians who actually created sanskrit to communicate with North Indian people"'

That is streching it beyond a limit, but it is for sure that Sanskrit was highly influenced by Tamil durings its creation, just like it heavily borrowed from prakrits. MST is true as long as the 'M' stands for Mongrel

«ñ¼ôÒÙ¸ý - Á¢¸ô¦Àâ ÒÙ¸ý.
«ñ¼¡ = Á¢¸ô¦Àâ À¡¨É.

þÅüȢĢÕóÐ "«ñ¼õ" "«ñ¼¡" ±ýÈ ¦º¡ü¸ÙìÌô "¦ÀâÂ" ±ýÛõ ¦À¡Õû/¦À¡ÕÙõ ¯ûÇÐ ±ýÀÐ ¦¾Ã¢¸¢ÈÐ.
Á¢Ì ¦ÀÕ¨Á¨Âì ÌÈ¢ìÌõ À¢ÃõÁ¡ñ¼õ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø «¨Áó¾Ð ±ùÅ¡Ú?


¦ÀÕõ «ñ¼õ > ¦ÀÕÁñ¼õ > À¢ÃõÁ¡ñ¼õ!!

þÐ À¢ý À¢ÃõÁ+«ñ¼õ ±ýÚ À¢ÈÆ ¯½ÃôÀð¼Ð ±ÉÄ¡õ.

À¢ÃõÁ¡ ±ýÀÐõ À¢È, Àà ±ýÀÅüÚû ´ýȢĢÕ󧾡 «øÄÐ "¦ÀÕÁ¡ý" ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÄ¢ý ż¦Á¡Æ¢ò ¾¢Ã¢À¡¸§Å¡ ¸Õ¾ò¾ì¸Ð. þÐÀüÈ¢ §Á§Ä ÜÈôÀðÎûÇÐ.

§ÀÃñ¼õ ±ýÚ ¦¸¡ûÇ¡Áø "¦ÀÕõ «ñ¼õ" ±ýÚ (ÅÕ¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø ¯Â¢÷ Ӿġ¸ Åó¾Å¢¼òÐõ) ¯ÕÅ¡ì¸õ ¦ºöÅÐ, §ÀîÍ ÅÆ츢ø "¦ÀÕõ" ±ýÀÐ ÀÂý¦ÀÚõ Ũ¸ ¸Õ¾¢.


aNdappuLukan - mikapperiya puLukan.
aNdA = mikapperiya pAnai.

ivaRRilirun-thu "aNdam" "aNdA" enRa soRkaLukkup "periya" ennum poruL/poruLum uLLathu enpathu therikiRathu.
miku perumaiyaik kuRikkum pirammANdam enRa sol amain-thathu evvARu?


perum aNdam > perumaNdam > pirammANdam!!

ithu pin piramma+aNdam enRu piRaza uNarappaddathu enalAm.

pirammA enpathum piRa, para enpavaRRuL onRilirun-thO allathu "perumAn" enRa sollin vadamozith thiripAkavO karuthaththakkathu. ithupaRRi mElE kURappadduLLathu.

pEraNdam enRu koLLAmal "perum aNdam" enRu (varumoziyil uyir muthalAka van-thavidaththum) uruvAkkam seyvathu, pEssu vazakkil "perum" enpathu payanpeRum vakai karuthi.

"brammaandam" is wrong or sanskritised pronunciation.

What is difference between word "poi" and "Pulugu"
Is there any other word in Tamil denoting "lie"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by viggop

What is difference between word "poi" and "Pulugu"
Is there any other word in Tamil denoting "lie"?

---

There is a slight difference in their usage. "puLuku" has the connotation of a shameless, bare-faced lie and is therefore a little more perjorative than "poy".

There are a number of dialectual words meaning "lie" used in some parts of TN which have slightly different connotations. Words used in villages in the Thanjavur area include "puraLi" which specifically means deliberately decietful lies to cause trouble, "poccam" which carries a strong sense of moral repugnancy, and so on. And, of course, every dialect has its own repertoire of colloquial expressions used figuratively to mean lie. In my family, for example, we use phrases like "muzam pODarAn", "noNTi ADarAn", and so on.

There are quite a lot of words/expressions in Tamil language for the word lie! I am not able to collect all for you. Hence the following is not exhaustive. Secondly please note that some of the words given here may have other meanings as well, for example, the word aRRam. There may also be words which are hybrid or considered so generally (mixture of Tamil with other language). e.g.AkAcapajncAgkam.

poy and puLugu came from the same root word, but in usage, appear to have different connotations. poy is lie, (generally). "pulugu" is more on the side of lie that is harmless, spoken for the purpose of fun, boasting, surprise, esteem, tricking, trap etc (others you can imagine). One who regularly lies in this manner is known as puLugan or puLugiNi. But not everyone knows the subtle differences in these words and hence they may be used interchangeably.

Here are some for your to digest.



1 acAkacam
2 AkAcapajncAgkam * stupendous lie, as an almanac written in the air
3 Akatam
4 amAntam
5 aRRam
6 cannivEcam
7 coRpuraTTu
8 curi-ttal . to circumvent, accomplish by trickery
9 cuttappoy downright lie
10 illatan2apAvam * total negation, as in 'there is no lie in the mouths of great ones'
11 illAtapoy downright lie, utter falsehood
12 immi lie;
13 kaimmai lie
14 kaLLaccol 1. lie, falsehood; 2. pretence, pretext
15 kaLLam
16 kappi lie, bare-faced falsehood
17 kappuviTu-tal to lie, utter falsehood
18 kara-ttal to conceal, hide, disguise;
19 karaTiviTu-tal to disseminate a lie
20 kaRpitam 1. that which is invented, artificual; 2. fancy, imagination; 3. lie, fabrication
21 katai 1. a long story, anecdote, or narrative; 2. epic; 3. perun3katai , the story of utayan2an6; 4. fabrication, falsehood, lie; 5. romance; 6. fable; apologue; fiction; 7. message, communication; 8. manner; 9. talk, conversation, chit-chat
22 kazuttal lie
23 kirAntu-tal lie in concealment;
24 kiRi 1. falsehood, lie; 2. stratagem, article; 3. deceit, fraud, playful mischief, practical joke
25 kiruttimam 1. that which is artificial; 2. falsehood lie, fraud; 3. a class of demons
26 kimarimUttal 1. slander; 2. exposure of secrets; 3. falsehood lie
27 cazakku
28 caLam

When you have something that you can give and you decide to hide or not to give it away and tell a lie, this is known as "karavu". KaravuLLa uLLam urugum (kuRaL). Also note "poy" can also be negatively expressed as: "uNmaiyinmai" or "meyyazivu" or something. It all depends who is the user and how able she is in playing with words.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bis_mala

poy and puLugu came from the same root word, but in usage, appear to have different connotations. poy is lie, (generally). "pulugu" is more on the side of lie that is harmless, spoken for the purpose of fun, boasting, surprise, esteem, tricking, trap etc (others you can imagine).

---

This is true of modern usage, of course, but I would have said that "puLugu" was originally the stronger word.

Is puLugu Tamil?

In German Luege or Lug (poetical) means lie.

Aravindan wrote:

Quote:

---

This is true of modern usage, of course, but I would have said that "puLugu" was originally the stronger word.

---

I had taken some time to draft my response to viggop independently and without view of anything contained in your (last ) post. I had posted it without any amendment as I drafted.
As further elaboration by me on the usage and meaning of the word would bring me outside the topic of this thread, I wld leave it as it is!! But this does not mean that I am trying to limit anyone here from delving into the 'ancient" usage of the word. By all means do so if you think it is relevant and if you have the materials..

Azhahan wrote:

Quote:

---

Is puLugu Tamil?

---

Yes it is!! Thank you for pointing out a similar-sounding word in Ger.

pul > punmai (pul+mai, suffix). baseness.

pul - pullaRivu - pullaRivANmai.
pul> pulai > pulaiyan. ( one of low status)

pul > pol > poy, 1. falsehood, lie. 2. hole. (and other meanings).
pul > pol > poL > poLLal : a hole in a tree.
pul > pol > poL > poLLamaNi (unbored precious stone).
pul > pol > ponthu : a hole. (pol+thu(suffix) = ponthu. not ponRu. see: man+thiRam = manthiram, not manRiRam )
pul > puL > puzai, 1 hole. (aalappuzai )
pul > puL > puzu, something that liives in holes or grows in closed surroundings, a worm.
pul > puL > puLugu (puL+ (u) + ku ), a lie.
pul > pullaanguzal. (a 'holed' instrument )
pul > puL (that which comes out from an egg (concept of closed surrounding again) ) - a bird.

The root here is "pul" which means a hole, a closed place or something base(derived meaning).

I do not wish to go extensively into this. The above examples suffice to show that poy and puLugu are actually "statements with holes" and that was how the ancient Tamils considered them when deriving their words!!

pul > pulai (something base) > (pu)lai > lie (English)!!!
puLugu > luege or lug (german).

Nothing surprising. More often, you have to behead a Tamil/Dr word to get the Indo-European!!

I want to know the origin of "Vimal"/Vimala/Nirmala/Nirmal/Shymala"

It means pure in sanskrit.
"Mala" means impure.Does this come from the Tamil word "malam" meaning impurity?

Dikshitar priases Goddess in his evergreen Kriti "akhilandeshwari rakshamam" as
"nikhila lOka nityAtmikE vimalE nirmalE shyAmalE sakalakalE"