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Vijay, I'm sorry if my casual remark (with a smily ofcourse) hurt you...It was just an inference...it's true you never said so...however, I do sometimes get a thrill out of vimarsanam:-))
It's really something that people can get so much emotionally attached to the profession of IR, and really feel for him:-)
"I personally dont credit that as absolute truth but for all I know, this might be his real philosophy - the creative flourishes we identify and enjoy in Devar magan may all be just spontaneous for him."
Rajdes, no its not. With Kamal and IR its a different ball game. Include MR,KB too. Andhi mazhai's final tune was selected after 27 attempts (of course Kamal picked the first one after listening to all the 27 tunes). I guess even R. Sundarraajan works on his songs with IR. There are probably a few instances where IR got what the director wanted in his first try itself. Even for the latest mallu film, whose recording sessions are included with the song the director says that IR tried 3 tunes and the director picked one.
Its only for those paadavathi Vijaykanth/Sathyaraj movies listed above made by some unknown directors that IR just gets the first tune off of his tired head and asks the director to either keep it or leave his place. Or he comes out with equally medicore 7 tunes or so from which the director HAS to pick one. I know for a fact that this has happened many times. Even IR has admitted to boredom in TFM and that has amply reflected in his songs.
"In his perception, probnably he doesnt do it consciously. If that is so, it is hardly right of us to criticize that. "
Whether he does it consciously or not might be a moot point. The point is there were innumerable number of "bad" songs or songs where it was obvious that much thought has'nt been put into the process. And not co-incidentally most of those songs have been from bad films/directors a sample of which I have listed above. Whether he did that intentionally is just speculation. But based on his own interviews and from some others in the industry whom I have heard and spoken to in the past, there were many films where he showed blatant disinterest. (I dont buy that he was compelled to do those films and so on, especially with the power he had in the 80s. Also big MDs before and after him have been more selective or even if they werent, have given their best to a higher percentage of films than IR did in the 80s)
"If the latter is of lesser quality in our perception, how can he be blamed for giving less attention to the latter"
For someone who has good exposure to music, has been listening to TFM, IR and other music for along time this distinction can be made(between a medciore product and a creative attempt)with a certain amount of confidence. . Otherwise you could end up arguing that all of SA Rajkumar's songs are as great as IRs and its only in OUR perception that their songs sound different in quality :-)) I agree to a certain extent that its subjective. But in many instances the distinction is not that blurred, atleast to me. There is probably a reason as to why all the songs from those films I listed above were neither criticaly acclaimed nor were commercial successes nor do even hardcore IR fans remember them.
"IMO, we should drop this question of %'s of good songs etc. Just enjoy his flourishes. "
I do enjoy his flourishes. But its just my angst that a composer of his creativity could have cut down on those bad projects which would have made his overall resume look even more impressive, taking a cue from his predecessors. Right now, someone could even argue that in order to give 1 good song in the late 80s, IR had to give 5 bad ones. Its like as if he needed 6 tries to get it right.
tmrrmt, you could email the doc to RR(admin). He will probably link to it at the beginning of this thread. You could also email that to me, actually I appreciate that. I am trying to write a series/article on 'What to look for in the music of IR'. This will help me.
"Right now, someone could even argue that in order to give 1 good song in the late 80s, IR had to give 5 bad ones. Its like as if he needed 6 tries to get it right."
This is probably the case, who knows. IR does not seem to know how a song becomes a hit or atleast wants to. He just does, what he feels like at that moment. He probably did it for money, he probably did it for being the 'numero uno' or monopoly. He probably did it to prove that a lowly guy form a village can do film music whether it is folk, classical or modern. He probably did it to spite all those who probably insulted him in his early part of the career or who still try these things through some media. Whoever claimed IR is a paragon of all virtues or an ideal human ?. He just happens to be a really really good MD, in my books. I am sometimes even happy that he did so many films, even though it is frustrating to fast forward some songs (especially when on LPs :-( ). Because at the end of the day (or period ?) we have so many songs worth listening to again and again after culling out the so called 'crap'. This sort of music (in format and structure) is not )available elsewhere (or from other current MDs). And we also have a MD who is capable do doing bigger/structured works in WCM format (for bgm etc). This is not possible without having all that work experience. It is all a skill and genius is 99% perspiration, right ?.
I agree with vijayr 100% - IR's qulaity was going down in the late1980s.
I guess IR preferred to work in Ramarajan/Rajkiran type of movies becase he probably enjoyed the importance he got in their movies. (I remember seeing lot of Ramarajan movie posters featuring only IR – he cannot expect the same in BR or KB movies). Basically these people were just trying cash-on IR's popularity, so they probably accepted whatever tunes IR gave. Most of plots were also very simple; they did not pose much challenge to IR. He could have always redirected the traffic to people like GA and Deva.
vijayr reminds me of one Nakkeeran's dialogue from "Thiruvilaiyaadal" (roughly translated) I am the one who gets very happy to see quality, and at the same time I am the who one gets very angry to see crap.....
njv - you can not stamp someone "Thankless" just because he is a critic. I also love raja's music, but I can not be a HCIRF like some other people in this forum. To some extend these people are responsible for the degeneration of quality... the focus shall be on the "music", not on the "person". They get transfixed on the "person" somuch, they forget "music".
Kiru, I agree to a certain extent with your points. Its just my wish that rather than gaining work experience by accepting those kind of films he could have consolidated/compiled all musical ideas which came to him spontaneously(and which he thinks were good) but werent used in films or specifically sit down and compose some serious pieces like say HTNI and release them. Or atleast do more devotional albums along the lines of Ramana maalai/Guru Ramana geetham and so on. Even if he had limited himself to just KB/Manirathnam/Kamal/Fazil/Balumahendra/RV Udayakumar he would have had atleast 10-15 films/year(in TFM alone).Another 5-10 movies say, in Telugu/Malayalam. Rest of the time could have been spent on something more creative. There's only so much that he can gain from working on a Ramarajan or Vijaykanth film. As IR himself had said once his attempt to do HTNI or NBW was to "dust himself" off from time to time. Dust that had accumulated from years of working on paadavathi films. But in the end, I guess he was the kind of personality who couldnt firmly say a no to those who tried to cache in on his name. Maybe that was his weakness. As an IR fan you sometimes feel let down a bit when you see a lot of sub-par songs from a composer whom you respect. But so far, thats been my ONLY grouse with IR.
His positives still outweigh everything else by a huge margin.
Vijayr,
The Paadaavathi movies or dhandams you are talking about are mostly by newcomers or a director waiting for a break. since it has happened for many directors that IR's music had proven for them to be successful, these people too would have gone to IR for the same purpose. remember IR was considered lucky and at a period of time he singing the title song was considered Auspicious. Most of these people come from villages to make it big in films and IR should have had a soft corner for them as he too was struggling once upon a time like them. But they were not competent enough in bringing out IR in his best. hence they, the movie and songs failed miserably.
I dont see anything wrong in Ramarajan,Rajkiran movies, whats so grouse in those songs :?
Vijaykanth- i accept but for movies like Sathriyan, captain prabhakaran, bharathan, Chinna gounder etc., most of his movies were craps.
Any way you have comeup with the final statement i believe :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayr
vijayr,
I think I can see your point and angst. Hell, I share that angst :-). My point is when the man is so indifferent to it, why we should(read you should) waste so much time explaining to people why a lot of crap came out from his baton. See ?;-)
Bottomline is, IR decided to do his share of crap films for one or more of the many reasons outlined by Kiru and perhaps some more too. As a listener,we can definitely crib at the man's lack of selectivity but beyond that, he has his own reasons. Like I said, once we start on that line of questioning his choices, I can even go so far as like "why did he marry and waste his time on samsara sagaram - he could have used that time to produce more quality music? " ;-)
That would be going nowhere. This is IR. Johnny is as much part of him as Pickpocket. He has been both artisan and artist. [/i] Some people love him for being an artisan and infact, reject the artist in him!! [/i]
That being the case, I could even interpret his mediocre output as a gift to his mediocre listeners(though there are absolute craps with no audience, I agree. You wouldnt believe this, I know people who love IR only for the aatha songs of Rajkiran and Ramarajan movies!)
Personally, that aspect of IR is what fascinates me - I know many people who identify IR with a specific type of music and reject all his other aspects and still are mad fanatics of him. That includes , as I said, hardcore Aatha song fanatics, purely telugu dabba song fanatics and 70's IR songs fanatics etc
It always reminds me of the 5 blind men and elephant story -each perceiving an elephant according to the part he touched and felt!
I understand IR has becime a fav punch bag for many. It is not as if MSV is an angel. That his quality nosedived after the parting of
VR combination is well known. He has infact more craps to his discredit than IR. Iam one of those unfortunate few who suffered many junks from MSV in the name of host of films Mangala vaadhyangal, Porter ponnuswamy , kALTHOON etc to name a few in the late 70's which had not even single song worthy of listening. If we can gloat over the melodies of MSV, we can also gloat over those of IR.
I dont know why we are getting dragged into IR's failures instead of the his style of composing and orchestrating which the title of the thread seem to suggest.
Art is highly subjective. Case in point is the mother sentiment songs that someone brought out. Someone even went to the extent of trashing all Ramarajan and Rajkiran movies and IR's music in them. I can clearly see that those people are easily taken in by the "sound quality" and orchestration and forget that every work of art at the end of the day must reflect the culture and thoughts of the land to which it belongs. IR's western classical also will have the thamizh ethnic feel in it.
Classic example was the "Do Anything" piece from How to name it. It had a grand western classical opening and soon shehnaai more like the nayyandi naadhasuram (a pipe instrument which I call pee pee :lol:) joins in a rustic thamizh naadu feel note. I was thrilled to hear an instrument used by the most simple folk instrumentalist find a place along with grand flow of violins and flutes. It was IR's way of elevating the sound of the land he came from to a grand scale where it merged with music from other instruments which "people" generally see as grand and "Stylish". There are many friends of mine who thought that the musical piece had been spoiled by the use of the "ethnic" instrument. They said that the rest of the world will not accept such experiments. They were soon surprised as the unbiased western ears to whom I played this music loved the new sound. I realized then that the lowly attitude that we have is to be blamed if IR's music hasn't reached all corners of the globe. As a contrast there have been many of y friends who were disappointed and surprised with the lack of enthusiasm from strangers to the music of a different creator whose musical forms they(my friends) thought was more western and of high quality and therefore automatically appealing to them (the strangers or westerners).
To relate to Rajkiran movies, the two movies he directed might not have had the subtlety of an "alai paayudhe", but it had emotions of the natives captured in an efficient manner and vocalised by IR. I loved it like millions of other thamizhars which seems to be come as a huge surprise to the many intellectuals that haunt this forum. My expectation from IR is not to concentrate only on carnatic-Jazz-WCM-blues fusion. My expectation from IR is to take the soul of the land he comes from in a vehicle of fusion which he has PERFECTED like no one else to the whole world. If Thiruvaasagam is the first step, then I am waiting to go the full journey with his music, no matter how "un fresh" or "repeated " it would seem to many. To harp on this I would like to narrate a couple of incidents which I will continue in subsequent posts.....
to be continued....
Incident #1.
I recently bought an album "Six pieces of silver" a collection of Jazz pieces by Horace silver a renowned Jazz guru. It was recommended by a jazz buzz friend of mine. I bought the CD and played it. It had 10 tracks that all sounded the same. I liked all the 10 pieces even though there was very little variations. I asked my friend to explain this lack of variety and "Freshness". He explained to me that jazz performances are live and not arranged and recorded. It is a mood of the mind and the music flows in the same vein as it would flow from a cut- vein. The goal is to reach a "bluey" mood and stay in it as long as possible with the music being a tool to set the mood. The key is , if the mood is attained, then even slight variations in the wind of the players will get the listener jump in joy. Thankfully I was not pre conditioned to get 6 different tunes, or else I would have thrown the amazing music album to the dust bins. I find that many listeners are preconditioned when they listen to IR's music. Some want him to keep importing the latest arranging computers and reprogramming rhythms all the night in the name of composing songs. There was one "critic" who was terribly displeased with the use of "tabla" in IR's songs. No not with the quality of tabla, but the Tabla itself. Well what can one say about these people and how can you weigh the genius of a man based on the words of such "critics"!!!
Incident #2.
I was lost one day while getting back to my home (I was new to the area). As a feeling of panic was gripping me from all sides, I heard "Shenbagame Shenbagame" drifting in the air reassuring me . As I walked in the direction of the flow of music, I stopped near a small makeshift hut of a construction worker where a tape recorder (of the very famous "tea kadai" quality- which cannot play back the compositions of modern music director with good quality) was playing the song while the construction worker and his family were having their dinner. I chatted with him for a while on various things including the song that was being played. Later on this gentleman helped me to find my way back home. I really enjoyed that "home coming".
Jai.you are hardly seen in the hub these days(work pressure I presume)but when you come,the words flow in torrents. :D :thumbsup:
Kiru - long time ago, I had drafted a letter to be sent to the President of India APJ Kalam - can I send you the scanned version of the same as email attachment, since it is hand-written ?
Thanks
thumburu, MSV is not exactly an angel but those few films you are talking about of MSV came mostly in the late 70s after he had been in the industry for almost 2 decades and at the tail end of his career. I am talking about IR's quality even in the 80s which was considered HIS decade.
In fact IR's junk in the 80s alone outnumbers MSV's bad albums from the late 70s. When you consider IR's output in the 90s, he easily wins the contest :-)
MSV's quality didnt nosedive after his split with TR. Looks like you havent listened to many wonderful albums between 1965 and 70. Most IR fans's knowledge of MSV is limited to a few MGR films and the few KB films that
he did in the mid-70s and all those late-70s films. They havent heard enough of him to make a judgement.MSV has been composing since the fifties.
"My point is when the man is so indifferent to it, why we should(read you should) waste so much time explaining to people why a lot of crap came out from his baton. "
rajdes, I am not trying to explain his bad products. I am just expressing my frustration at those. His indifferent attitude only incenses me more. We are talking about work ethics here. MDs in those days used to toil on each and every song until they got what they wanted. With IR it was limited to a few big directors/actors(except his first 5 or 6 years). Definitely talent-wise IR is right there at the top. But when it comes to work ethics he ranks 4th or 5th behind MSV, GR,KVM and even ARR at times.
"Like I said, once we start on that line of questioning his choices, I can even go so far as like "why did he marry and waste his time on samsara sagaram - he could have used that time to produce more quality music? ""
Again professional life is different from married life.
It was IR who used to crib often that he was being given the same situations again and again. No MD before him like MSV goes publicly cribbing about the quality of films he has to score music for nor complain that he was given the same situations again and again. If he didnt like it so much he could have opted not to score for it. Thats my stance as a fan.If he thinks film music didnt give him enough scope beyond a point, he could have done what his predecessor or his successor did instead of tarnishing his resume with innumerable number of uninspired products. Thats my grouse.
Marketing products like TIS in the late 80s would have been easier too.
"I know many people who identify IR with a specific type of music and reject all his other aspects and still are mad fanatics of him. That includes , as I said, hardcore Aatha song fanatics, purely telugu dabba song fanatics and 70's IR songs fanatics etc "
True, there are fans even for Deva. Like I said earlier, how do you maintain the distinction? There might be fans even for Manmadha raasa. But for someone who has listened to IR long enough, even amongst the amma/aatha songs you can separate those that had some creativity/soul in it(like "en thayenum kovilai kaakka marandhitta") from the other run-of-the-mill "kadamaikku composing" songs.
And secondly, I am not trashing ALL Rajkiran/Ramarajan movies. In fact Rajkiran did only 3 or 4 movies with IR and all of them had decent songs. But a lot of crap churned out for Vijaykanth/Sathyaraj/Ramarajan/Murali and other one-time heros in the late 80s.There were other junk Ramarajan films besides the 2 or 3 hits like Karagatakaarn/EOP/Pudhupaattu which had just 1 good song out of 5 and thankfully most of them escape my memory now.
And if we come to the 90s,especially post-1995, the less said the better.
There are so many faces to IR and some of them like some face and few other like many faces. Thats a pro and con for IR. There is nothing wrong for vijayr (who I believe is a hard core IR fan and critic) to be critic about IRs recent work, since he only demands more from IR, which is good for all of us anyways.
Coming to post-1995, the taste of TFM in general changed. People want fast and peppy number. If you look at IR songs from Annakili to AOKK, they all have a IR touch, but for younsters who are exposed to ARR music (and the like) directly, IR music is something hard to accept (the same reason why some of IR fans cant accept MSV music, which are gem and had much better lyrics than IR or ARR days).
If you look at HFM, it changed from soft melodies to disco to fast and peppy, but recently going back to melodies (Kisna, Veer Zaara, Parineeta (best melody in recent years), Nazar, Lucky, Zehr .. you can keep on going, the fast and peppy ones are very few - dbhoom, bunty and bubli). Hopefully when this virus that got TFM now slows down, people will start liking melodies (by then IR might have retired totally from FM and may be focusing on his music college/lecture around the world), then people will start respecting IR and they will realize what IR did for us.
As far as I am conerned, I changed from being a IR fan to IR hard core fan to IR devotee. Nothing in this world, can ever change my respect and love for IR. I do like ARR, HJ, VS, YSR and Bharadwaj, but my religion is IR.
It is highly unacceptable to expect even more than 50% of the songs composed by IR to be classics. Given the sheer number of songs he has composed, the number of hits we have is already phenomenal, and worth a lifetime of listening.
It is the motivation that drives people to do extaordinary things. When IR entered TFM, he undoubtedly was motivated, and that reflected in the awesome works we got from him then. But, over a period of a decade, he might have lost it. This does not mean that he has run out of ideas, or stopped producing great music. It is just that the percentage drops a little bit, and may be we have to wait a bit to get the quality we are used to get so very often.
This is where competition comes in. Competition not in the true sense. But, someome to compare. And this happened with the arrival of ARR. I'm very sure this DF would just be 25% of what it is now, but for the fact that we have two greats in TFM. Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying ARR produces better music than IR. If there has to be a comparison, it has to be done on level grounds. We should not compare ARR's music to a MR/BR film with IR's music for an unknown producer/director. Given that, not many would deny that IR's best works are far superior than any music director's best works as far as film industry is concerned.
Motivation and competition brings out the best in anyone. That is what makes people to compare. And it adds more responsibility to produce better end-products. But for this factor, we would never be talking about average/bad works of IR. We would just be content with his good works, and just not talk about his mediocre efforts. We should also realize that not all projects deserve the best of efforts. Neither do we know what made him do those.
Given the number of songs IR was composing during the late 80's or early 90's, even one good song out of five would give us 10-15 songs an year, which is very good. And beyond doubt, his recent works have been good. Most of the songs were situational. But that is what film music is all about? Even an excellent song that is out of context would break the flow of the film, and reduce the film's impact. Situational songs are best seen with the movie.
The *most* important aspect of film music is BGM. And IR has never let us down in this department even in his so called *mediocre effot* movies.
It is definitely disturbing for HCIR fans to read so much and hear about IR's "dhandam" songs. But we are talking about facts! All it takes to break this bad effect is just to listen to any one IR classic. And we have many many many of them...
This is certainly an interesting thread, and some of you have articulated many thoughts I have had about IR taking on way too many projects in the 80s. IMO the good albums with directors like Mani Ratnam, Bharatiraja, Bhagyaraj, and actors like Kamal, Mohan, and Rajini are worth more attention than his bad albums, but we mustn't forget that the guy did an ungodly number of films at his peak, and perhaps if he had taken fewer films and more time on those fewer films the music would have been even better.
I think for a time after the arrival of ARR he wasn't producing music that was too good. But in the past 5-6 years ARR has grown increasingly busy with projects in Hindi, LOTR, etc. and so producers go for other MDs, and IR too has benefitted from this more open playing field by getting better projects here and there. It also doesn't hurt that some filmmakers like Fazil and Kamal Hassan are fairly loyal to him. Albums like Pithamagan, Virumaandi and AOKK, while not classics, show that he still has creativity in him.Quote:
And beyond doubt, his recent works have been good.
I'd like to see him get another BIG film project. Something on the Mani Ratnam level.
I second dragun's thoughts.......i think if IR had done fewer movies he could have just made gems and only gems........IR's movies,strangely, most of them had only 1 good song and 4-5 crappy songs......i had seen a ramarajan movie with that "oorellam un paattu" song which is a gr8 song but the rest were unbelievably horrible...........but his albums for Mani,KB,BR contained good songs thrughout.......
again, analysing such a gr8 mannnn itself is a foolishness......IR is IR for wat he is......and so many ppl. still worship him,call him god,even support his sons...so i think IR is one of the gr8est men in history of TN......
one more fascinating thing abt IR is the hatred that his followers have for ARR and only ARR.......hatred that IR-fans have for ARR is unprecedented and it has shadowed whole of ARR's career......ARR has been bashed for the past 13 years continously.....and the best thing is that IR-fans bash ARR only and not any other MD.....subbudu, for instance had punctured ARR with his reviews but he has good words for HJ :lol: .......i cant believe it.....
my dad used to tell me that IR was also bashed by MSV supporters, but that was a for a short period of time(1-2yrs), but in ARR's case it has been his entire stay......i dunt think MSV-TKR were ever bashed by anyone cos GR did not have any fan following, IR was bashed by MSV-fans for 2 yrs or so, ARR has been bashed by IR-fans and is still been bashed, which will continue as long as ARR is alive, HJ,YSR get bashed by ARR-fans very rarely....SUCH IS THE GR8NESS OF IR'S MUSIC THAT HIS SUCCESSORS GET BASHED SO MERCILESSLY...... :)
All this MD-bashing (for people like IR and ARR) comes from this overzealous mentality in Tamil film. People are so quick to raise a dynamic personality to superhuman status, whether it is MGR, Rajini, MSV, IR, ARR, whoever, that not only are they unwilling to hear criticism of that personality, they have to go out of their way to unfairly bash (this is different from criticising) their competition.
However, I haven't really heard much true IR bashing from ARR fans here. The venom is mostly going from IR fans to ARR.
Its one thing to say that Dhina or Deva is a bad MD, its totally false to say that IR or ARR is.
Maddy and Dragun
The reason why IR fan bashing ARR is because he is the only one comparable to IR in TFM, thats the reason.
Dragun
In IR forum, you will see IR fan bashing ARR fans. Go to ARR forum, you can find lot of ARR fans bashing IR fans. Infact I stoped coming to ARR fan forums, because ppl call IR as pig and later they say "i mentioned pig as uvamai"
All these bashing only hurt the fans a little bit, but not IR or ARR or it does not reduce their greatness.
I am a member of IR yahoo groups and there is a strick rule against bashing any other MD, even mildly. I donno if ARR forums don't have such rules. IR is the first MD in my opinion who broke all the rules that limited creativity for MDs. ARR has faithfully followed IR's footsteps and continued the trend set by IR. Only wish is if he could be more prolific so that we can keep hearing new music from him more often.
Getting back to IR, I have the following opinion or guess about how he lets creativity flow.
In my college days there was a friend who used to do adzaps and creative funny skits. We used to brainstorm and rehearse a lot before the college day. During those sessions, he will spout hundreds of creative ideas. we actually voted and chose the best three ideas and practised all of them(just in case any of the other teams hit upon the same idea). He never thought about cancelling ideas in his mind before telling it to us. We used to ask him y dont u just tell the idea u feel is the best, he said that he didn't want to restrict anything as he wanted his mind to be as open.
IR knows that any patterns of musical thought are worthy of being heard. and when he does composing, he doesn't think of himself as a maestro. If he starts thinking abt himself as a maestro, he wouldn't do certain scores thinking that it is not worth his "maestro" title. That is a limiting process. If he does that, then those musical are lost to him. So he does not mind scoring a "highwaysle" song in manasellam. To him even that is music and of the same pristine quality as "nagumomu". IF he decides not to make "highwaysle", he might not do many other things and that might be a huge loss to us the listeners. It is un limited music flow in which even a tin can be the source of a beautiful melody.
IR's hit rate might not have improved, but he doesn't bother.
Like the age old adage "Thottanaithoorum manarkeni", which means that water source in sand will spout more water as you dig more., IR keeps digging and more nectar comes forth. However sand also keeps piling up and it is natural. However if the person digging doesnt like the sand, he/she will not get the water. and with every dig he/she might not get water always. IR keeps trying in his own effortless way.
It's like saying Kamal hassan can do 50 Maharasans as long as he gives a Thevar Magan or Nayakan here and there.
Flame suite on (for people who think I am thread crapping)
Jaiganes,
that was a nice analogy on a creator's work. I haven't read a lot of history on all those well known past claasical musicians
( Bach, Mozart, Beethoven etc..) but the truth is each one of them have produced music which probably have atleast a few works of them either didn't see limelight or not well appreciated or probably plain simple works without any critical acclaim, same goes probably with carnatic classical music ( my guess with no knowledge) I think probably not every single keerthanas or krithi by Thyagayya is practiced and appreciated equally or for that matter not every single raga is adopted by musicians with the same equal importance or creativity and it is this part where IR has been praised to have excelled ( the variation, situational context and the varieties in the same familiar ragas etc.. etc..) way ahead of his times and way ahead of others, one reference always comes to my mind from a lengthy 12 or 14 part series of article written by one Mr.Laksmi Narayanan ( if I am not wrong) which appeared on the net 6 -7 years ago on mostly IR's music, the ex: I think 'panthuvarali' raagam ( if I am wrong, some one correct me) supposedly used as for sad ( pathos) based compositions which was used by IR in movie " Getti Melam" for the song " pudhu pudhu dhaagame" by KJY and SJ (I think) giving a totally different feel with no pathos feel whatsoever, there are many more such situations, anyway, about the so called "dhandam" songs, was there, is there now and will be there for ever with every possible MD on the earth except if the MD dies after 2 0r 3 successful movies as happened in the premature death of Mahesh ( that includes all those whom I mentioned above), and similarly every MD since the beginning of talkie cinema and IR and ARR are no exceptions. ARR has had his share ( from the time he entered till NEW his last best effort in Tamil probably was KKS, too good IMO, and I am talking about only Tamil movies) it is the amount of total works these two have produced which are uncomparable in terms of total number of movies and hence IR's dhandam songs may appear as more in number , believe me, even if one considers only 30% of IR were classics, this feat is just unimaginable by any MD amounting close to 300 movies which stands apart.
For all those who missed the nonstop Kannad IR 24 hours streamimg music from Kannadaaudio.net few weeks ago, it was just too good. I wanted to share a info on one of the songs from the very first IR movie in Kannada (Mathu Thappad Maga) which had this song " Bhanu mugilina..." by SPB and either VJ or SJ, a kannada version of the classic " Edho Ninaivugal" of Agal Vizhakku which was entirely different than the tamil version in terms of orchestration, interludes, totally mind blowing with no tabla based rhythm as opposed to tamil version, I wonder how I missed this song before, I don't know if it is available in CD, but the broadcast quality was good. Now I am not sure if tamil version came first or kannada, I know the Kannada film was released sometime in 1977 or 78. Similarly the songs from "Geetha" another classic from 1979, way way ahead of times still fresh and I can't imagine any new MD coming even close to the compositions such as " aene Kaelu koduve ninage naaneega" ,"Geetha sangeetha" etc..
Jaiganes, few months back you had mentioned about a CD compilation of IR's late 70 /early 80 hits, did u buy this CD in Bangalore, How is the quality of the recording of the songs? and lastly, Bangalore gang ( IR fans ) have/had any meetings among you ? just curious, let me know if u have any in June , July.
Prabhudas
jaiganes & Prabhudas
I really enjoyed your posting. Thanks a lot.
Jacky
Kamal give Maharasan here and there, but the rest of them are sincere attempts. He make mistake while finishing them, so it is not well received by masses, but nevertheless he is another great artist India have and exclusively Tamil Nadu have.
njv,
I just wanted to say mediocre efforts need not be justified.
A sincere attempt for a song like "highwaysla" could have helped the producer and the upcoming hero. He need not give another Ilayanila, just a decent song will not hurt! And this is a lot different from writing college skits where you aren't playing with anyone's money.
Kamal stopped his Kuppais in early 90's but IR did not. AOKK did not stay one full-day on my hard drive but i still listen to "study for violin" to enjoy its classical richness and soul.
" it is the amount of total works these two have produced which are uncomparable in terms of total number of movies and hence IR's dhandam songs may appear as more in number , believe me, even if one considers only 30% of IR were classics, this feat is just unimaginable by any MD amounting close to 300 movies which stands apart. "
Prabhudas, there have been MDs before IR who have scored for atleast 1500-2000 songs with a much less dhandam percentage than IR. We are just comparing percentages, not the total number of dhandams. Agreed that IR has a high number of classics as well(certainly not 30%, more like 10-15%, numbering about 300-400 songs)but he could have avoided the 2000+ mediocre-to-junk range quality songs easily, if he wanted to. But he is still adding to the junk list."ennada ninacha" from AOKK is worse than some of the T.Rajendar songs I have heard in recent times.
"It is un limited music flow in which even a tin can be the source of a beautiful melody. IR's hit rate might not have improved, but he doesn't bother"
i think any sound and every sound wont account to being called music........naai kuraikkaradhu kooda musicnnu sonna MDs oda gathi enna aachunnu makkallaku theriyum.........
To prabhudhas:
Yes. I bought it in Landmark bangalore and the rcording quality was good.Quote:
Jaiganes, few months back you had mentioned about a CD compilation of IR's late 70 /early 80 hits, did u buy this CD in Bangalore, How is the quality of the recording of the songs?
I don't know of any such meetings, would love to join in myself after June 27th.Quote:
Bangalore gang ( IR fans ) have/had any meetings among you ? just curious, let me know if u have any in June , July.
To Jacky:
Maharasan is a full length feature film and it was not directed or produced by Kamal. He did it for the sake of his long time associate GNR. And I love that movie and particularly the "1 KG chicken joke" Never thought Kamal-Senthiland Goundamani combo can be so effective. Punch dialogue "Vadivelu enna periya computeraa daa?". Music on the other hand tends to be viewed very subjectively. Prejudice against arts like music, dance and paintings are overwhelming, whereas a film or a play is plain story telling and hence is universal in appeal. So If I say i like "vaanathai paarthaen, bhoomiyai paarthaen" by chandra bose for Rajini's Manidhan, there will be millions who simply don't like it. So being closed minded about music will make you only to count the "dhandams" thereby robbing you of the pleasure of enjoying good music. Why IR makes the so called "dhandams" is something only the man can explain. We can only speculate and if we are going to do only that in the name of a discussion, then I would rather discuss about alien abductions and bermuda triangle than dissecting IR's ego or lackadaisical attitude.Quote:
It's like saying Kamal hassan can do 50 Maharasans as long as he gives a Thevar Magan or Nayakan here and there.
To jacky again:
Then the onus should be on the director. In the same movie, the final half an hour IR's music is different, because the director bothered to tell the story only then. Trust me, I have seen this movie a couple of times and I felt that the last half an hour was very good, and wished only if the first 2 hours had been tight like "Idhayathai Thirudadhe". For that movie, IR had given 3 good songs (IMO)Quote:
A sincere attempt for a song like "highwaysla" could have helped the producer and the upcoming hero.
1. Indha jodikkuyil (marriage song sung by Vijay Yesudas)
2. Chinna kuyile kuyile(sung by karthik)
3. The last pathos song sung by hari haran. (I didnt like it to begin with, now after repeated listenings in Sun Music I am afan of this song).
now these may not be ranked in the "classics" list of IR, but they are good ones and went well with the story (again IMO).
To vijayr:
We would love to know more on there MDs who did 2000 songs and gave only 200 crap songs. Maybe we should see them in the light of the music scene then. However comparing MDs from different time lines where the scenario of the music and movie industries were different is an odious task IMO.Quote:
Prabhudas, there have been MDs before IR who have scored for atleast 1500-2000 songs with a much less dhandam percentage than IR.
To vijayr again:
Well That mediocre to junk was necessary according to IR because there was a requirement for them too. and then lets not jump into why did he accept such a business proposal. Maybe he needs to keep in touch with music 18 hrs a day, since he doesn't discriminate and even crappy music to your ears is just music in his mindset, doesn't feel that he is doing a crappy job. Why do Mathematicians keep solving simple puzzles that is below their range? Well, just to be in touch with maths and numbers. Same way IR keeps in touch with music to beimmersed in it. If he is going to wait for BR or a BM movie, then he has to spend months doing nothing. Thats fine by a software developer like me. But for a genius like IR , it would be hell. plus he had a studio with some 100 musicians depending on him to score continuosly. Who is going to pay for them, music critics or critical fans like you sir? So maybe he took crappy Ramanarayanan and thiagarajan projects. "If it helps 4 people , nothing is wrong" perhaps he believed in that. Now all these could be the reasons behind his "so called" "dhandams". I am going to stop speculating right here. I like IR's music and it is possible that there might be many more MDs who are better than him. However he is the one who has captured my imaginations for more than 20 years. So vijayr, you can keep on counting his "dhandams" happily.Quote:
but he could have avoided the 2000+ mediocre-to-junk range quality songs easily, if he wanted to.
and finally to maddy:
Well again subjective. I liked "Who let the dogs out" it had only dog barking as the interlude and it was so interesting.Quote:
i think any sound and every sound wont account to being called music........naai kuraikkaradhu kooda musicnnu sonna MDs oda gathi enna aachunnu makkallaku theriyum.........
(just suppose) If the dog barking is your pet and it is warning of a thief trying to break in, then there is no sweeter music than a dog's bark!!! :lol: Cheer up.
Sorry for the looong post. I guess I couldn't avoid it.
Jaiganes,
"So being closed minded about music will make you only to count the "dhandams" thereby robbing you of the pleasure of enjoying good music"
Certainly not. I chafe off the dhandams and my playlists are a good companion. But a dhandam is dhandam and complaining about it is no crime - Be it IR or ARR. And snubbing it off as closed-mindedness is something i just can't agree.
This might seem completely off topic given the arguments going on above...but since we're supposed to discuss IR's composing techniques, suggest you guys check out 2 songs from the Malayalam movie 'Achuvinte Amma' - 'Shwasathin thaalam' and 'Thamara kuruvikku'...both are available in coolgoose as well as musicindiaonline/ raaga. These 2 tracks have an intro, probably by Director Sathiyan Anthikad Raja sings with his harmonium a few bars. And then the actual song starts. Very neat.
Karthik
www.itwofs.com
This kind of overscrutinizing IR's work has stripped off the
enigma and magic from his work. This I feel is a great disservice to the creator in him.
Why isn't anybody doing it for MSV?
vijay, don't hastily conclude that IR fans don't listen to other MDs.
if u take me , I prefer TFM till 1990. 90's is the worst decade for TFM (this is strictly imo) and
Iam convinced that IR's quality drastically fell post 92.
But it is a natural ageing process like it happened for MSV in late 70's. Iam not defending his bad works. But comparison with ARR or MSV can be odious.
MSV, IR both being prolific had their share of bad works .
Being a 70's film aficianado, Iam aware of MSV's bad works like in
"Manipayal", "paadhugaapu", "grihapravesam"( a sivaji hit
where all the songs were bad), enmagan and many more and all these were during MSV's heydays .Only ARR has very few craps due to his per song onerous effort.
Thumburu, I was talking about the medicore stuff even in the 80s. Most of the movies I listed previously were in the 80s itself. Of course, post-1992, it gets only worse.
"Why isn't anybody doing it for MSV? "
Because in the late 50s and 60s, he maintained a very high percentage.
"But for a genius like IR , it would be hell. plus he had a studio with some 100 musicians depending on him to score continuosly. Who is going to pay for them, music critics or critical fans like you sir?"
well, who is paying for them now? These are all just lame excuses. Musicians arent bonded to IR. If he does less films they can always find another MD to work for. Same musicians play for different MDs.
"Well, just to be in touch with maths and numbers. Same way IR keeps in touch with music to beimmersed in it"
Thats fine. I know he has to be in touch and thats why I felt he could have done more non-filmi albums like HTNI/NBW, attempted projects like TIS back then itself, when it would have been easier to raise funds/market etc. or at the least done more movies in MFM/TeFM and done less junk films in Tamil.
"However he is the one who has captured my imaginations for more than 20 years."
"Why do Mathematicians keep solving simple puzzles that is below their range? Well, just to be in touch with maths and numbers."
Presumably not the ones who are into publishing quality stuff in quality journals. They deal with enough math there. Of course, like in other pursuits, you have the quantity crazy guys in math too, who may simply tweak a result here and there to get one more, just to up their publication rate. God only knows why they do that. The quality guys, on the other hand, take their own time to come up with a finished product that is then suitable for dissemination through a quality journal.
Time waits for no one. GR, KVM, MSV all bit the dust when the flavor of the particular era happened. Same with IR and now ARR. For ARR to achieve the heights of the 90's, he has to work much harder, since his competition has already learned all his trademark tricks of making a song happen. HJ is breathing down his neck like never before. A telephone mani pol is answered with kannum kannum nokia.
Coming to the discussion on hand, I agree with most of what vijayR says. IR's greatest classics are just that. But he also delivered innumerable crappy songs.
BTW, does anyone else also share my annoyance with the guy who presents that sapthaswarangal program on Sun TV? He keeps raving about isaignani all the time, even if the participants present crappy songs. I think he is going overboard with his adulation, which is basically not wrong, but when you are a presenter you should not bring your personal prefudices to bear upon the presentation. It is a contest and fairness should be present at all levels. Even if this guy doesn't award the final grades, his constant chirping about isaignani can be unwholesome to those who present songs from other MDs.
Vijayr wrote:
I never meant that.Quote:
Musicians arent bonded to IR.
music4ever wrote:
I agree but my question is why should you guys haunt every thread that tries to analyse the positive things about IR's music to keep harping on his failures? Sure you can open a thread on crappy songs of IR and keep playing your gramaphone over there. This thread was meant for people who wondered at the way IR composed countless(innumerable) melodies that captured the hearts of millions of music lovers. Please go somewhere else to prove that you guys are the best critics. Nowadays even writing review in rediff or any website has become very easy. You can go over there and bash IR's failures.Quote:
But he also delivered innumerable crappy songs.
What is it that you are trying to achieve by doing this? Atleast we are fans enjoying and reliving the pleasure of some good moments courtesy IR's music. What pleasure you derive out of this non-stop haunting of every IR thread and telling that IR produced crappy songs? I wonder why?
"He keeps raving about isaignani all the time"...that is not true. I had watched a number of episodes and A V Ramanan gives similar praise to all MD's (even SAR)...I'm sure he appreciates IR a lot (which is deserving too with a good percentage of participants choosing his melodies to enrich the program) but he never belittles others and gives them their due credit...
I feel that is one (rare) SunTV program with decency and some good standard...it has also contributed some decent singers to TFM I think...
app_engine, he is referring to the new comperer, T.SRaghavendar. AVRamanan's contract for sabthaswarangal got over sometime back. Nowadays, JayaTV's sabthaswarangal is good to watch and listen to.
Please listen to Swades and Bose before writing something like this. HJ breathing down ARR's neck?? Thats a JOKE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Music4Ever
Jaiganes, if you go to the beginning of this thread, when you werent around, you will know the reason as to why the thread digressed. Rajasaranam brought in a few points and I had to reply to those. Prior to that, I had mentioned some points w.r.t to composing tunes for pre-written lyrics and vice-versa. Anyways, this thread's intro doesnt say that this is only a postives thread or meant for only praising IR's works. It just asks about the technique that IR adopted and I guess you can have all kinds of posts here, both positive and critical ones. Sorry if it bothers you.
I understand that vijay. However you have made this point innumerable times in this hub. You go a long time back in this forum. I am a recent entrant. Appeal to IR fans if they go overboard in their adulation and bash other MDs. rajasaranam is not the type who will simply bash other MDs. In fact recently he opened a thread on extraordinary themes of ARR in the "Bose movie", sadly the response to this thread was pretty laidback. It seems that even the fans of ARR didn't want to talk about the great work by ARR. Whatever IR may have done over the past 30 years, he has definitely raised the level of ordinary music fans of thamizh nadu. Now he has done ordinary albums, nobody is denying that. Just that it needs no constant reiteration is my point. I hope I didn't hurt you in anyway. If I have, then you have my apologies.
"does anyone else also share my annoyance with the guy who presents that sapthaswarangal program on Sun TV? He keeps raving about isaignani all the time, even if the participants present crappy songs"
i do Music4ever.....i feel like giving him "ONE TIGHT SLAP".....and have u guys ever noticed-participants singing ARR songs do not win 1st prize......that happens in jaya tv singing programme too......pls do not bring some isolated example stating that karthik won in sapthaswarangal after singing a ARR song, my view is a generalised view and i've watched this for the past 3-4 yrs.........
mujhe toh lagta hain suntv and jaya tv programmes shuld be called "Abaswarangal"........just compare it with TVS-saregama on ZEE tv where judges consider ARR's songs as a benchmark for good singing.....