Go away!! Shooooo ... This thread is for Stupid people only!Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnayak
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Go away!! Shooooo ... This thread is for Stupid people only!Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnayak
Nice story indeed. Story-- because no sane person would have asked only a 14 years exile. she would ve asked a permanent ban of Rama. But for the author wanted a story neatly woven he chose 14 years of exile, only then the hero can come back and reign his throne...Quote:
Originally Posted by Raghu
Post deleted by moderator
rajasaranam and idiappam,
Pls stay away from this thread if you dont like what is being discussed.. Posts that are sarcastic or ridculing the epic will be deleted..
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't they applicable the whole way? I mean the ethics, and so on mentioned in Ramayan are applicable completly even today right? :)Quote:
(1) In practical-Life... how far they are applicable?.. Are they just Theories only?
That challenge his belief in these "Theories"?Quote:
(2)What are all the challenges... obstructions or Hurdles one may come across in Life?
Excellent answers posted by Raghu to some of Sudhaama Sir's questions. :thumbsup:
Thanks Viggop, we need more & more challenging questions like these posted by sudhama sir to have better meaning full life.Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
I hope sudhama sir comes up with more questions like this to open our mundane eyes!
... Ramayana-Message to Humanity.. . Continued.
Mr."Raghu" and Mr. viggop,
// "viggop":-- Excellent answers posted by Raghu to some of Sudhaama Sir's questions. :thumbsup //
// “Raghu:-- Thanks Viggop, we need more & more challenging questions like these posted by sudhama sir to have better meaning full life. I hope sudhama sir comes up with more questions like this to open our mundane eyes!//
Thanks for your Feedback- message… but both of you are foregetting the Main-point that… these Questions relate what?
… To Ramayanam… and Not your Common-Knowledge on it… without any link with the Topic undertaken here.
So to say… we have to RELATE the ANSWERS for the Questions linking with therelevant contexts of RAMAYANA…
… which only is…. the Scope, Aim and Purpose…. of the Questions.. towards LIVELY-DISCUSSION from all of you Friends here.
To start with, I take up one Question.. which I will answer myself…
…furtheron, all of you friends can pick-up the Thread of continuity. .. on the other Questions and progress forward.
// Which are the Ante-forces of Evil.. hidden within Man.. which ditch him / her… towards his Failures or Sufferings or Sins ?//
Mainly Two out of Six.. They are …. (1) Over-desire / Greed ….. (2) Anger / Wrath.
The whole Ramayana was caused mainly because of these two Evils of different characters.
(1) OVER-DESIRE / GREED :--- Rama, Seetha, Dasaratha, Kekaya-King, Mandhara (Kooni), Kaikeyi, Ravana,Indrajith,Vali,Soorpanaka
(2) ANGER / WRATH :--- Rama, Lakshmana, Ravana, Soorpanaka, Sage(Rishi) who cursed Dasaratha, Valmiki
RAMA:---
(1) On Seetha’s desire,.. rather Greed.. to possess the rare Specy Deer, Rama ran after it … ONLY TO CATCH…. and…. NOT TO KILL it… But he killed it… because under the a Spur of a Moment,… he felt it as a challenge to his Valour and that he is being deceived by some trick by the Deer… which thoughts kindled his Anger and Wrath to finish the same Animal, which the couple wanted to Nourish as a Pet. Thus he was engrossed with the Opposite feeling of Anger in place of Love.
Not only he failed to implement the purpose of his endeavour but also on his intention to fulfil the desire of his lovely wife Seetha-devi.
If Rama would Not have killed the Deer, the miserable turn of Ramayana,… yielding and succumbing to the Evil-scheme of the Wickeds Villains Ravana and Mareecha would have failed and the Hero and Heroine would not have to suffer the undue Miseries at all. This one event made Rama to weep out of shame and loss for the first time in his immaculate Life… alongside Seetha’s cries as an innocent Victim of Wickedness.of the Villain-Enemy.
Thus Rama shows to Humanity…”Oh my dear Children… Look… when I did good I enjoy, and when I erred even to a little … See the grave Resultant Misery caused
Because of my minor mistake of Anger…
So my dear Children… under all Circumstances.. even if the Circumstances WARRANT… and… JUSTIFY… never lose your Balance.
… lest you too will have to suffer at the hands of the Wicked-Enemies..
Your INNER-ENEMY is…. YOUR ANGER hidden within you… which is the Worst-Enemy than the Exterior-Enemy.
Beware… I have shown you by my Life-Experience… my dear Children ..
… BE HAPPY without giving the least room for ANGER… which is under your control.
Sudhamma Ji,
Thanks for the elaborate post. :D
But there are a couple things that I don't understand...which JG brought up earlier.
Almost everything that RAM does has some sort of message right?
What is the message in making Seetha Devi walk on fire to inspect her chastity?
Is it because A King must always be respected by his people, so he does it to....prove to his kingdom that the Chastity of his wife is flawless?
I know the story with a common man's conversation with his wife, which RAM overhears, and all, and I know that Shree Ram's actions are justified in this, but I just want to know the justification.
Thanks. :D
SuryaQuote:
Originally Posted by Surya
as far as I know Devi Sita jumped into fire not to please Shree Ramachandra but it was a curse by some Rishi, which Shree Ram was aware of it, hence he asked Devi seetha to Cross the fire
Post deleted by moderator
These Two Topics of Seetha on Fire... and the King's Sense of Honour even to his one of the Subjects... a Washerman... are good questions needing descriptive replies. We will reply these Questions under the relevant contexts when we take up .later.
Now the Topic under current discussion... is..
... How far the the Two Factors... of OVER-DESIRE / GREED as well as ANGER / WRATH of the Characters .. have caused or influenced the Ramayana events...?
Starting from the Hero Rama... I have made the initial posting,
Furtheron.. others are invited to continue.. on the same Topic of OVER-DESIRE / ANGER in Ramayana.
From my layman's exposure to Ramayana - I was told the practice of "Sathee" started with Seetha herself attempting the jump into the fire.
So, eversince that, Hindu women were told that it was an honour and blessing to jump into the funeral pyre of their husbands. If they were reluctant, then somebody made sure they were pushed in!!
How true is the above, folks????
Yes! Fortunately, the British put out the fire!
Dear Friends,
I am surprised and PAINED to note that my Requests on a reasanable fact.. is being IGNORED
... and the SUBJECT IS BEING SCATTERED HERE AND THERE... withoutany COGENCY ... resulting in Haphazarad Disorder of the Topic..
Let not the holy-sense of Devi-Seetha's Agni-pravesam... be DENIGRATED so cheap twisting it towards the Suicidal SATHI..
...which used to be performed after the DEATH OF HUSBAND... and Not in front of him while he is alive..
Sudhama Sir, OK I will try my best, please accept my advance appologies if I am wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Ram- He got angry and frustrating while chasing the deer, as he could not get it, so he shot the deer dead
Sita - I do not know whether greed is the rigt word here, perhaps Over desire?, SIta fell in love with deer's beauty, not realising the danger behind the illusive(maya) deer.
The moral behind this two aspect is that OVER-DESIRE and ANGER will make one emotional ,at that time your intellectual skills are blinded leading you into self desctruction.
am I right, sudhama sir?
...
... GREED and ANGER ... the WORST ENEMIES in Human-Life
The greatest blunder in Ramayana was the Over-desire of Seetha to accompany her Husband… to Forest… while he has undertaken the SAINT-HOOD.
Even though out of the duly Sincere-Love she offered to equally undertake Sainthood… it was the first time ever in the History for a Man-Saint to take with him his wife also… even though a Saint… which spirit itslef is contrary to Saint-hood. Because a Saint renunciates every worldly attachment… including his Wife, Parents, Brothers and others as well as the Wealth and Wordly-pleasures..
Whereas Seetha’s joining with her Saintly husband… even though as a Woman-Saint was not only a Violation of Renunciation-code but also an interference and burden to her husband in a different order of life… totally alien to her Married Life.
Even worse than her accompaniment… was her OVER-DESIRE / GREED to possess the Beautiful-Deer… which an ordinary Person, may aspire for…
…. a Queen Seetha no doubt deserves to seek for it… But not the Saintly-Seetha.
And the Saint Rama… after his Renunciation of all desires, his desire to fulfil the wants of his wife… again is another violation of Renunciation….
The Consequences of which both of them miserably faced making the story of Ramayana
ANGER of Rama.. ESPECIALLY THE SAINT…along with OVER-DESIRE of Seetha ..
… culminated in their SUCCUMBING to the Machinations of their Wicked Enemy Ravana.
So the Message for Humanity… Rama and Seetha show by action … more than words…
Oh my dear children… We burnt our Fingers… because we did mistakes and Blunders thus we miserably suffered UNDULY… mainly because these two Evils hidden within every human-being..
Don’t allow those Natural-Evils… GREED / ANGER hidden within you …
…to raise their ugly-Hoods… hindering your Hapiness and Success in Life.
....
.. Devi Seetha’s MESSAGE to HUMANITY.
Look my dear Earthly Children… even though my Husband Rama is the best possible exemplary Man with the Immaculate Human- Qualities, Model-Potentilaities Invincible Talents and Unparallel Competence in every respects…
… as also myself… an acclaimed Lovely-wife… with highest degree of Purity by Heart and Soul coupled with Pinnacle Qualities and Propensities.. ensuring strict-adherence to Self-Discipline and such other Human-Life-Principles…
.. We both unduly suffered … in Ramayana… Why ?... What WRONGS we commited? Because of …
(1)My GREED to accompany my Saint-Husband, even though with Selfless Love
(2) My GREED to possess a Deer … a SYMBOLISM OF ILLUSION..
(3) My ANGER on the unparallel Lakshmana, driving him out making me lose my Safe-guard.
(4) My GREED to such an extent… towards offering “Aiyam”(Honourable-Offering to Seers)…even in the Forest…. Violating the commitment to Lakshmana in crossing the House-boundary.
Consequently all the unnecessary and undue Sufferings in Ramayana… not only for me but also to my Great Husband, Emulative-Human Rama… alongside all others too…
… Only because of ME MAINLY… that too because of … My GREED and ANGER
So we BURNT OUR FINGERS.. just to show you as the GREAT LESSONS in Life by Experience…
LESSON :Any Human is not an Exception… even Gods too… Beware of GREED and ANGER..
Your Greatest INNER-ENEMIES, which can BEAT YOU OUT , in spite of all your Bests in other Respects.
Ram did not believe Seetha when she said Ravanna had not used her. So... to prove her chastity, she walked into the flames... had Ravanna used her, the flames would have finished her. BUT the flames did not. Of course, there is a larger message. The controversial one, about the value of sati. I personally do not see anything wrong with sati. Marriage vows are made for a lifetime. Many times, especially during Seetha Devi's time, the man was the sole provider for the woman. If the man died, the woman could not provide for herself, unless she married again. But as I said before, the marriage vows are for a lifetime. So... sati was a perfectly natural choice when the husband died. Also, does one not walk around the fire when he gets married? So that is probably why in sati fire is used; the marriage ends in a similar way that it began.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surya
digression *whoa SRS lose mom and daddy dear in one pyre eh? You could also say it was economical for not to have two pyres and save everyone the time to have to mourn all over again? And imagine the amount of white material and the shame of having a badluck widow...please atleast can choice of the wife matter or do we all need a push towards rejoining the inferno?*
back to the topic...from my experience with this epic i never hear much about the two other brothers....can someone share what they know of them?
As a modern woman of contemporary times - Now this is one aspect of the epic that I reject, whatever message it may contain, Pa!!! :x
The Woman was abducted and kept incarcerated by a villain who had a score to settle with Rama. But despite everything she had endured, she had to submit to some sort of inspection of her chastity??!!! No way Jose!! :x
All literature, whether it is modern or ancient epics, are written as mere stories by the writer. Whatever messages they may contain is merely subjective! So in that vein, I'm afraid, merely extolling the virtues alone without the negative aspects does not make a good discussion.
So sorry, if my two sen's worth is grating but as a woman, I needed to say it!!
You began in the right way, Niro - as a modern woman of contemporary times! That is precisely it. Whenever we try to understand an epic or a legend, be it a Greek or Roman or Indian one, we need to put ourselves in mind of the times when they were written.Quote:
Originally Posted by nirosha sen
As people of a contemporary society, what we find as unpalatable, entirely unacceptable was the norm of a society of another day. But that was how society was in those days. To try and map those practices to modern day is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. For instance, the athletes in the Olympic Games of ancient Greece would participate in the nude, as a method to deter women from attending the events! Now, that was alright in keeping with those times, perhaps. But we cannot judge them in the light of modern society, modern laws, customs and practices.
An epic like Ramayana or Odessey are meant to be read, and if possible, such values/messages as inherent in them, be emulated. But judged? I don't think so.
Not that I think you are judging it, Niro. I'm just making an observation, that is all.
There is a difference between what is "economical" and what is essential for survival. Women working at jobs is an entirely modern conception. If the woman could not provide for herself, then that means she is opting to live in poverty... as a beggar. Or else remarry, IF the age is right. And dowry, which was also very popular for a very long time. So your "economical" argument is very simplistic. Now you mention children - marriage vows are between husband and wife, not children, wife, and husband. Before you condemn sati further, consider the number of women who have abortions every year. Or consider the thousands of baby girls left to die under bridges all over Asia. Is this not the woman's choice; if the woman knows she cannot provide for the child, does she not have a right to kill it before he/she reaches an age where the suffering will be X78? Not to mention the impact of raising a malnourished child. Just like this, sati is the woman's personal choice. She is keeping the marriage vows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Querida
Anger:-
Lakshmana is said to be avatara of Adi Sesha and frequently gets angry.When Bharatha comes rushing towards the forest to ask forgiveness for his mother's act,he comes with the army too.Lakshmana thinks that bhartha has come to kill Rama with the army and asks Rama's permission to wipe out Bharatha and the entire army.
Greed:- Ravana's desire to possess Sita is an example of greed.
When Sita asks for the golden deer,rama actually tries to talk Sita out of it explaining the maya behind this.But Sita Devi is obstinate and wants to have the deer and throws a big tantrum forcing Rama to go after the Golden deer.
For me, somehow, we have yet to draw that line that delineates fiction from the Divine.
Homer's Illiad, is merely seen as a mythological foray of the rich imagination of the human mind, in spinning a good yarn. Ramayana to me, is no different. But unfortunately, for Indians and Hindus in particular, the air of reverance attributed to this epic, takes a fanatical stance that leaves a bad taste in the mouth!!
If only we could view this epic as mere story-telling, and be anti-poddle in our judgement, meaning, the pros and the cons of the discourse, then I do believe its literary position would be no different in the minds of the reader, than say Shakespear!
The human mind is very vulnerable to all sorts of influence and intepretation from both real events to fictitious ones. To say, that Seetha's trial by fire has no impact on the pysche of mere mortals in pushing their womenfolk into the fire, does not hold water. Anything held in divine awe, would certainly be put on a pedestal as a yard of measurement for weak, vulnerable souls such as the masses to emulate.
All I'm asking is that the Ramayana should be treated like any another epic of the world, borne from the fertile imagination of a mere mortal.
Niro: You say
Seen by whom? In the days of Ancient Greece, it was seen as a real story of real heroes. There were the Gods involved in that tale as well. The fact that ancient Greek Gods are worshipped no more has made the epic lapse into a richly imaginative mythological tale.Quote:
Homer's Illiad, is merely seen as a mythological foray of the rich imagination of the human mind, in spinning a good yarn
The same is not true with Indians. If the heroes of Ramayana and Mahabharatha had lost their "Divine" status, then perhaps, everyone would view these in the same light as Odessey or Illiad. But the Gods of Ramayana and Mahabharatha are very much alive in the Hindu culture and tradition, and therefore, they have transcended the status of a literary masterpiece to become liturgical masterpieces as well.
The same is true with The Old Testament, or the Four Gospels of the New Testament too. As long as the religion is alive, these would be religous works; perhaps if the religion were obsolete as the religion of ancient Greece, then these too would become epics of imagination.
Very unnecessary to bring in this statement given the rules of this hub - dunno how this is gonna contribute in value to the original question..Quote:
Originally Posted by sbadri99
Interesting to see a MODERATOR take sides in debates on a consistent basis(on a forum known for its many conflagrations), is this also an unwritten rule of the hub? Are the senior mods awake? ;)
Come, come H3W: In the first place there is no debate here, for sides to be taken!
And the Hub rules do not say that mere mention of the word religion is taboo!
We are discussing the relativeness of epics with respect to being works of literature as against scripture.
Dear Nirosha Sen,
There is no reason to believe Ramayana never happened. It is 100% true. Please see the following:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~lkawgw/adamsbridge.html
This is the bridge which Ram, Hanuman, & the Vanaras built. Now when you see this photograph, keep in mind that the only other man-made structure visible from outer space is the Great Wall of China.
If you are still having doubts, there is Sita Devi's lotus footprint:
http://www.avatara.org/sita/lotusfoot.html
Do not call Ramayana as myth, ever again, whether unintentional or not. It is NOT a myth, it is 100% true.
Badri,
There was absolutely no need for you to bring in Old Testament blah blah to make your point - I am sure you are mature enough to see the risks involved.
This isnt the first time you are wearing your heart on your sleeve.
Anyway, I wont waste time with you on subjective issues. I've no wish to 'hijack' this thread further and upset the regulars(That said, your dragging in other "Scriptures" is childish though) As a "moderator" you reserve the right to silence any contrary opinion since you're the guy wielding the admin password ;)
Folks
Let us not digress here.Please discuss the topic Ramayana only and the story of Ramayana.Thanks
Badri,
Do not argue with the likes of hehewalrus & blahblah. Anything pro hindu is anathema to them. They are "secular" & secular means "anti hindu".
So, ignore their comments & get on with the topic.
Folks
A humble request.
Please post on ramayanam only in this thread.Do not digress from ramayanam.Thanks
Viggop - I respect your request, Pa!! :D Yes, whether it's told with religious fervour or read with my brand of detachment, let the discussion continue....... :D
Now, as for the footprint, sorry!! I couldn't hold back the guffaw!!! Derision aside, it's simply because we have a similar footprint shape, hewn out of a piece of rock, right here in my neighbourhood too!! And guess what they call it?????
Hanuman's footprint!! :lol:
Thanks Raghu, Sudhamma Ji, & SRS for ur answers to me queries. :D
Now, Niro, :D
This whole thing is being completly mis-interpreted.
Badri Bro! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Badri
Things said in the Ramayan and Mahabarath have messages for humanity of all times. They HAPPENED to serve as a path for humanity to follow. :D
Keep in mind that Raghuji said she did it volentarily. (What in sweet heaven is wrong with my spelling? I don't know! :banghead:) Even if she didn't, That is the price paid for marrying a King. A King has to do whatever it takes, to be respected by his followers with utmost respect. I think that everyone here knows the story of the Convo of the commoner with his wife, which is overheard by Shree Ram. Which leads to the whole "Jumping into fire" phenomenon. Even if Ram knows that his wife's chastity if flawless, he has no choice. He needs to prove to his kingdom that he along with his wife, his other half, is perfect. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirosha Sen
As a normal man, is that justified? NO!!
But as a King? Yes! In all ways! :)
You are looking at it as a normal woman. Don't. :)
"Ramayan really happened! It isn't just a story!" This is the belief of many many hindus including Me, SRS, Sudhammaji, etc. And there is nothing wrong, or foolish about it! It's up to u to believe it or not! SRS has provided substantial evidence for it! You may choose to take it, you may not, it's completly up to u. But making comments that potentially offend millions of believers is completly uncalled for!Quote:
Originally Posted by Niro
Sanjay,
Let's not get into offencive posts here! :) We woulndn't want the thread to be locked now would we? :D
Regards Y'all!! 8)
....Devi SEETHA on FIRE !!
Punishment ?.. Suicidal- Immolation?... Sacrifice? .... Examination- Test?
Ramayana heroine Seetha-devi was an Ideal embodiment of Indian Womanhood of that Historic – era Thretha-yuga.. Two Yugas earlier to the present Kali-Yuga..
So we should not measure or evaluate the worth of the incredible events of those ancient days… based on our present day Yardstick…. Which is far and far different, irrelevant and unsuited for the purpose.
Some persons remarks here are ... CHEA... CHEA... CHEAP.. and INSULTING.!!
Let us try to understand what happened and under what Logic of the Time?
Seetha , an Ideal-Woman for Chastity conforming to the Moral-code of Indian-Ethics.. was deceptively captivated by the Villain, while she was under Sainthood.
She was under imprisonment at the alien’s custody.. for several years.
When she was got released by Rama… he declares to his Loyal-wife thus…
“ Seetha, I know undoubtedly .. that you are still now pure to the highest core… because you are basically such a chaste woman… if any wicked-man who forcibly tries to pollute you, will get himself burnt by means of your high degree of Chastity.
However.. to the World, I have to prove that my trust in you is not a SURMISE..but TRUE. .
Because I being a King… should set an Example for my Subjects (citizens)… making them believe that I have NOT taken undue advantage of my position as Monarch..
Nor that I am UNQUESTIONABLE... even as a King or Saint... Yes I too am bound by the Law of Righteousness
…common to any and every individual of the Society , irrespective of Status or any sort of Divisions or Disparities amongst the People.
As the Proverb goes… “Yathaa Raja .. Thathaa Praja”(The Way the King behaves.. so will be his People too)
So .. “Lakshmana, raise up an Agni-Kundam (Holy-Fire)… let Seetha get in and prove her UNPOLLUTED purity of her Chastity.”
Accordingly Seetha-devi enters the Agni-Kundam … praying to Agni-deva… thus
“Oh Agni-deva… If it is true that due to my captivation in an alien’s custody,
… my Chastity has been least polluted either by my Thoughts nor by my Physique…
… please DECLARE SO… such that not only all the Dignitaries and the People here, but also the three worlds know… that I am still IMMACULATE…
If Not… let this Fire burn me.. I am prepared to accept your DISCRETION whatever it be
…and this opportunity can also make myself sure about my Veracity of my Belief, Degree of Self-measure as well as the Propriety of my Yardstick on Myself.”
Then the Agni-deva comes out holding Seetha-devi on a Lotus-flower… and declares…
“Seetha-devi’s highest degree of immaculate Chastity.. is burning me… I am unable to bear it anymore… Oh Rama, accept her as radically unpolluted and the Purest.
All Devas appear on the Sky and bless Seetha-devi….appreciating her Forbearance and Fulfilment of the purpose of birth on Earth.
…By means of her duly effective Role of strict adherence to her duties as the Heroine of the Epic.
Rama feels satisfied that he has done his duty.upto the Best without any Complacency or Leniency.
All the Dignitaries as well as the People… praise Rama highly that he has performed his duty promptly and Properly
... as an Exemplary Man as well as the Role- model- King ..
NO No NO, Rama had great LOVE for his wife, he never ever doubted her, he NEVER asked Devi sita to cross the fire to clarify her purity, NO NO and NO, it was curse by some Rishe, sudhama sir pls help me on this one, besides the residence of Ayodhya gave really hell of time to Rama, but he NEVER ever doubted his wife's purityQuote:
Originally Posted by SRS
and for those who ever said Ramayana & Mahabharth were just stories, they are NOT stories written by uncle Tom, they were REAL,one has to read the entire story with a maturity level, some Idiot has insulted Devi sita here so much, I am trying to keep my head cool, but there is a limit for everything
Sudhamma and Raghu Jis,
Thanks.
But that's not how it ends right? Please let me know if I'm wrong, After Agni Bhagavan brings Sita Devi out of the fire on a lotus flower, and proves her purity to the kingdom, and after all of that. Sita Devi says that she is had enough, She goes to the forest, she gets kidnapped, after she returns, she has her chastity tested, so she asks for Bhooma Devi to take her away from all of this, and the ground opens up, Sita Devi falls in and it closes again. And Ram is left shocked. He touches the ground where Sita Devi once stood, and says, "Sitee, Sitee."
That is the most saddening part of the Ramayan.
Thanks, Sudhaama sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Kudos to Badri for placing Ramayana on its rightful path; without compromising its past glory to accomodate the present.
What is the esoteric significance of the sandal that Lord Rama gave to Bharatha? Bharatha asked Rama to step on it and then step down once and then he took it back to Ayodhya.
This sandals are supposed to be very famous.
Vedanta Desikar(who belonged to VishistaDvaita school) is supposed to have written a sloka on Lord Rama's padam and the sandals.