If I had written anything that resembled degradation of another country(which I dont think I had) I duly apologize for the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiru
Printable View
If I had written anything that resembled degradation of another country(which I dont think I had) I duly apologize for the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiru
People here are critisizing Anniyan too much, only because it had something to say. If shankar made some crap oridinary love or action movie then no one would be complaining.
Extraordinary things always face criticism.
I am not aplogizing too. Half people here are degrading India, but not want to degrade the country where they "just live"!
See the attitude of people.. they want their country to be not even degraded in a forum. But if it comes to India, even if it is a 3 hour movie like Anniyan, they will enjoy India-bashing. Then someone will argue that one who bashes is the true patritot. One who doesn't is a enemy of the state? Anyways, if I had kindled the patriotism in Unlimited and others, then I am happy too.
I have travelled extensively and studied enough. I don't need anyone's indicators either.
Huh?
Can you elaborate your post Ganesh79? It just went over the head.
First of all I apologized. I dont know why you have to quote my post and say "I am not apologizing too"
there is no right for me to point fingers at other countries and degrade them. But yes I can point at my country and mention is serious problems. As I have been termed "india-basher" for doing that well and good. I will march on.. but I will not bow down to stupidity in the name of patriotism.
By the way, Why are you writing in an agitated manner? Its hard to understand what you write sometimes.
It is not that I am handicapped to present articles and indicators. After all, what you presented would themseleves be obtainable from "google". It won't take much time for me to search, dig and find a study that praises or scolds India. Only that, I don't really like my arguments to be based on "popular statistics", "sample study" and "survey by an agency".
LOL..Quote:
Originally Posted by ganesh79
Even the most erudite Phds cannot submit a paper or present a finding or an argument without indicators.
Are you trying to have some fun by showing off as so ignorant or are you really being serious?
Your statement above is a very arrogant statement. Read it twice, take a deep breath or better yet read after a few days. You will see how silly it sounds.
Yes. Arrogant people are the need of the hour in India.
Never did I present anything as my "own" finding. Yes it is common sense that you can google indicators and as long as they are from respected sources you can use them and tahts what I did.
But hear this.. I had to even go to the extent of showing statistics because guys like you were not willing to shed your bigotry!
There we go again!Quote:
Originally Posted by ganesh79
:lol: This is getting endlessly awkward and insane :lol:
Answer me this you Mr.Erudite. How can you trust a study from an agency that doesnt' have any clue what's going on Iraq. Is presenting studies the aim of UN or controlling the war? If you are unpartisan and bash India, why cite UN, which is the most inefficient of all? This is what I exactly termed as partisan attitude, in one of my earlier posts.
Linking the attitude of an agency on a war fought by independant nations to the effectiveness of the statistics it report is absurd.
In any journal/global conference/state sponsored forums UN statistics are highly respected and is infact considered the leading indicator.
Are you telling me you dont trust India is ranked 127 in HDI because of UN's non-intervention in Iraq War? How easy it is to call that indicator fake and say "Im Indian and My India is leading and not doing as bad as these UN folks make it out to be"! Please dont run away from the truth. Talk to any developmental economist and they will agree with the UNDP stats.
Guys
1. Pls do not "quote" the entire post when repsonding a particular point. The posts become ridiculously long and is visibly irritating. Everyone will read all posts, and most of the time would know what you are responding to.
2. Generally criticism of own kind (in this instance, country) is accepted, while criticism (non-positive) of another, is not. That is what Thiru was saying. You dont have to bash another to make yourself feel good.
3. Criticism of own kind should not be taken as bashing. It is just self-inspection. Improvement can only take place after introspection. Denial will not take one any where.
Some of you have refered to Malaysia in your posts.
Let me offer some food for thought.
1. Malaysia is much smaller than India and thus easier to manage. But you can't carry on forever with this thought. Who was it who said, show me one man who can be changed and I will change the entire nation. A country begins with the individual, then a family, a community, a village/town, a city, a state and finally a country.
2. Malaysia is all nice and lovely - from the outside.
Not many people know of the rot inside. Of how minorities are discriminated against, how who-you-know is more important than what-you-know. In fact, we are just a bubble waiting to burst.
3. India needs to be proud of its democracy. We dont have such independent press here. Everyone kowtows to the big boss - the ruling malay party. In fact, the government is supposedly made up of all races, when actually it is UMNO that throws pittance here and there for the non Malays. In fact for the non-Umno too.
4. Due to its heavily tipped policies, there is a severe brain-drain in Malaysia; the government is now attempting to bring them back - by dangling carrots.
5. Finally, the grass is always greener on the other side.
Maybe Shankar is sending a message in Anniyan. Maybe not. But remember that it is a story at the end of the day. And Anniyan is a mentally unhinged person - so quite impossible to justify his actions.
However the underlying message is: the difference should begin from YOU.
NOV,
An excellent post and true facts laid bare in a nutshell. I'm your neighbour :wink: , and I know exactly what you mean.
Having said that, the degree of democracy varies in just that-in degrees. True change can only come from within, and until then when the people of a country do not know how to handle freedom, the blame will always be put on some one else. Democracy or no democracy.
And that trait-of blaming others, is what Shankar has tried to portray in Anniyan.
Humans, when driven sufficiently, take on different personas, and in this particular case of multiple personalities, Shankar did a fairly decent job thro Vikram.
It was also refreshing to see the portrayal of various puraanams and the recommended punishments. That all religions have a common belief of good vs bad, and the bad will be punished if not here, then in the hereafter.
I dont think Anniyan was so much about patriotism per se, which "Indian" was, I think.
I'm wondering whether the message sent out from Indian reached the masses better, or whether Anniyan touched base better. It's not about box office collections I'm talking about.
The major disappointment was Sada. She reminded me of the woodeness of Trisha. And some one who can keep the likes of Nayanthara company in the department of how NOT to tie a sari! Other than that the cast was good and did a good job.
Dialogues were good-wish Shankar paid attention to the cast slipping up on the specific "dialect" they were speaking.
Songs-well..nice and peppy, dance floor type songs. Memorable-no, nothing stayed like say, Ra Ra (Chandramukhi).
Shoba
Two years ago, in some part of this planet earth outside India, some governing authority put nearly 300 IT pros in jail for unknown reasons and harrased them. What kind of arrogance is this? Whatever the mistake be, you cannot put a big group of nationals in jail, without a proper inquiry. Forget illegal immigrants. India is not even able to take action against border intruders without any criticism and hue and cry far from even mars. I dont' know why people who consult with UN to learn about statistics on India, forgot these issues? Human rights wing of UN sleeping? Of course, these issues offer no monetary gain to the west.
Half the world's proselytizers from the west are roaming free in India. They are the reason for the communal imbalance in India. Who questions them? They easily convert people and make them minorities and go back to their respective countries. But who takes care of those converted minorities? The Indian government. And, they will accept no less than the most special treatement. Quota for jobs, colleges, ministry; separate civil code; protection of their rights and what not. The entire India should work for them.
Singers and artists from our friendly neighbor are minting money here. I don't think even in the super-power there will ever be a minority president or vice-president. But in India? You may argue that it is part of the caste politics of Indian politicians. Most certainly you will. But atleast for political reasons minority enjoy in India. Elsewhere, the minorities don't even enjoy this politics driven status. But still India is being targetted for not showing respect to minorities, in several occasions by the foreign media.
These, along with few others, are some of the most serious issues that warrants action by the Indians and the Indian government. Let's worry about neat roads, good railways and strict traffic rules later!
Great posts people! Very educative and interesting.
NOV, I presume you are based in malaysia(from reading your post). I would like to know whathappened to the Prime Minister or the PM-to-be who was jailed with the charge of sodomy? I have studied Malaysian governance (or the lack thereof) while researching international policies. SOme of the things you mentioned are very true.
Ganesh79,
Interesting way to allude to me as the person aligned to statistics. I indeed am receptive to statistics but more on interpretation of statistics. I have learnt about the incident you mentioned and I do not condone any part of it. But I am doubtful whether the United Nations is responsible for such things when there were bigger issues to deal with this year with regards to UNPROFOR, oil-for-food scams and Security council debates. It is sad that such things hapen and India does not get the support it deserves.
About the religious conversion of minorities, it is a sensitive issue. I personally do not support it. One reason this is so easy to perform in India is because the minorities have nothing to lose as they have been ill-treated here and they easily buy the promises that are made to them by these "messengers". Caste system is still prevalent in our country not only legally but also through thought. The quota system though it sounds controversial is like the affirmative action in the US. India needs it but I am not very confident on the way it is implemented and the way the minorities abuse it.
You make it sound like the maximum problems are inflicted from outside and that is our primary focus-to-be. Whether I agree with this or not I certainly agree with the message in Anniyan that whatever we aspire to do and whatever we aim for we can do that while on the other side we can still follow the civic responsibility, respect for one another and good citizenry. These things are not hard and are easier to follow in our day-to-day lives. Shankar did not ask anyone to lobby for conceret roads or super highways in Anniyan. HE showed that maintaining regard for the country, society and its property alone goes a long way in helping our nation progress. If we can do this, then nobody including the UN or any outside state can stop pur local improvement. Improvement has to come from within and it has to come form every citizen in this country. We all can definitely change our country and improve our lives by just following our duty and sticking to discipline. This is what I got from Anniyan. I canot say whether it changed the movie goers, but it defnitely taught me something and I am willing to follow it! Therein lies an immediate victory to Shankar through Anniyan I must say!
but of course. I live here, don't I? My point is dont get over excited by the glossy brochures and beautiful picture being painted by the PR people. Reality can be some thing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by UnlimtedMeals
The Deputy PM, Anwar Ibrahim, has been freed. He is a shadow of his former self and hardly a threat to the government any more. In all his interviews (all overseas), he has been nothing but a bundle of contradictions.
As for Ganesh's point on the IT people who were arrested, paraded and disgraced, well it happened in Kuala Lumpur. It pained me to the core that the Indian government hardly reacted to it - after all it has given so many projects to Malaysian government bodies and buys a lot of edible oils from Malaysia. Surely it could have sent a strong signal, but it didnt and Malaysia issued a short apology and all matters came to rest.
ganesh&unlimited;
Reading your posts I get the feeling that both of you are trying to tell the same thing,it's only unlimited's dependence on UN's statistics which is bugging ganesh.
As I told in my earlier post there is no need to compare India with any other country or depend on statistics,keen observation of soceity will tell us where the corrections are required&which are the things which need to be encouraged.
Finally a point,If someone points out mistakes in our system, doesn't mean they are unpatriotic.Self evaluation is required from time to time,for an individual,family,soceity,state&country.In fact a person who understands mistakes&takes corrective action thereby contributing his/her bit towards the improvement of the country at large is more patriotic than a chest thumping individual who does just that¬hing else.(A general comment¬ aimed at any hubber :) )
Nov,
Indian democracy is a myth. There are indirect checks and balances springing straight out of the caste system where top 3% control over 93% of power and properties. Despite its own peculiar systemic weaknesses (that you pointed out), Malay model seems to have worked rather well in pulling millions out of farms into factories within a single generation.
Size does not matter. There are several smaller republics still caught in squalor even in Europe like Moldova. The quality of leadership reflects the quality of the nation.
Let me give an example of the rot in Indian system. Last winter, Junior Vikatan carried an article that it was so easy to get an affidavit for literally anybody in the world in the Chennai High Court. Their undercover reporter bribed the registrar to get an affidavit for none other than Saddam Hussain. They did not even check the photo. The affidavit duly declared that Saddam was the lawful President of Iraq and resides in Chennai. Signed by Saddam Hussain. (At the time of that article Saddam was still in the run.)
:lol: :rotfl:
There is inevitable brain-drain in the country which exports skilled labour nowadays even to Sub-Saharan Africa which offer greener pastures.
hey crab u ok?
theres been 6 bomb blasts in london.
u live in london rite.
Hi gaayu,
How u doing?
Am alright. But we got a noisy ruckus here after the Tube was shut down. Taxis galore amid drizzle as congestion charge has been suspended. You can't come into the capital anymore.
Meanwhile, Her Majesty is appalled at the dreadful things going on in her backyard. :cry:
Guys, i think everyone is stretching here a bit far..........with all due respect to Malaysia and other countries- India is huge.....Infact Indian economy is bigger than Germany,UK,Japan,Italy- can u believe it????
yes it is....India is next only to China in growth.....wake up guys, EVERYTHING IS NOT GOOD WITH INDIA but its not EVERYTHING IS BAD WITH INDIA- u have to realise this......
if graduates of 90's have put India in top10, we the graduates of 2000's will take it to no.1.......that day is not far.......Lopsidedness will also be eradicated in due course of time.....if anyone wants the reason how India economy will become balanced i'll answer it :D.....
Jai Hind
Well Crab,
I am not sure if democracy exists in its true form in India but I could term the Indian system of governance right now as a mixture of oligarchy, aristocracy and lawlessness. The lawlessness leads people to do whetever they want and they know they cannot be punished for little things (like say throwing their garbage on the road).
Maddy,
Yes the Indian economy is Huuge but look at the percapita. I think the results will be interesting. :roll:
I think last time I looked it up on an edition of economist.
Absolutely! However, "democracy" as we know it, be it in India, U.S.A or Timbuktoo is not actually that. Merely electing leaders is not democracy but the point is India is not alone in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crab
I don't think farms are evil and we have to evacuate people from farms into urban areas in totality. Remember, agriculture is the main determinant of GDP (in most countries) and a good monsoon (in India's case at least) means a good GDP and a bad one will have an adverse effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crab
You made a very good point about the caste system and
Couldn't agree with you more. In fact, this is true of every capitalist power following the so-called globalization (pl note i'm not against globalization, i'm just saying the present model is not actually globalization) including U.S.A and other major powers. However, obviously they better social and economic indicators than India.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crab
Someone was mentioning BPO, IT industry etc. I'd like to remind them that IT/ITES don't contribute a considerable chunk in the GDP pie. It's agriculture, small industries, manufacturing and other mass-employment generating "things" which constitute the bulk.
The Scandinavian countries are the best in terms of per capita income and more importantly, as Crab mentioned, their leadership takes care of social spending and welfare measures that are loathed by other so-called capitaists. The result? - They have a very educated work force, good health (health plans and all) and other infrastructure.
A final word on "economic growth" etc in general. Economics is nothing but the balance between scarce resources and unlimited wants - meaning, distribution of wealth and equitable growth, keeping in mind that resources are scarce. Our "India shining" campaign clearly showed the lack of this. And all the chest thumping about IBM prefering India and all is good, but has to be viewed in the right context. It's like the father of a starving family saying, "gee, people..... I could manage an extra 2 idlies today for myself!". OK, the analogy was too simplistic but that's the drift.
Sorry for the long post and fortunately NOV, Unlimted Meals and Cinefan have already made some points i wanted to make :)
All of you just go to news.google.com and type India. See the first two pages of the result and more if you want. Of courses, the hot news would about the current Ayodhya crisis. Look at the rest of the news and continue your discussions.
Here are some of the headlines that I read:
Toyota and Daihatsu to invest 89 million in India and set up a plant.
Alcatel to invest $600 million
Shell may set up refinery in India
Something about Iran Gas pipeline talks
India on G8 summit (Apart from "the 8" only India and China take part). India is going to oppose something.
India and China may be invited to join G8 :Blair
Thales (Some french defence major) for a JV with India.
Yamaha mulls third plant in India.
India's oilmeal sales fall down --- bad news -- but good news is that it seems India is the Asia's largest oilmeal exporter.
I don't want to infer or interpret anything. You can do it, though, in whichever way you want.
That should make you happy and not like the world press has a grudge towards India as a nation.
This is great and every country will have results. We should now look at improvement.
alwarpet_andavan
The idly analogy was so good. It is totally true! I was very amused
:lol:
People,
Does the concept of respect for labor exist in India? I want to know how aware our public are about sweatshops and all that. With the way they are hanging out their toungue for FDI these days, I doubt the govt has any incentive to fight for the working class.
Ah Ah. Sweatshop is one of biggest problem in US and several other countries too. Infact, in US I have seen huge number of protests by students agains sweatshops. Half the sweatshops in the world are sponsored by the "big powers". Dude, get your basics right before arguing.
National labour force
- 388 million work in farms and rural services (of which three-fourths are redundant)
- 64 million work in factories (under slave conditions)
- 88 million work in urban services
The above includes child labour of atleast 54 million across all sectors.
Dont you think "anniyan" is being taken a bit too seriously?It was an enjoyable movie which just had a character who got so frustrated by the people who refused to follow basic humanitarian laws.
India is a great country and I am proud to be an Indian but like all countries it has also got certain issues which Mr.Shankar has tried to potray in his own way. No point in closing our eyes and pretending that problems dont exist,they are not going to magically dissappear.The wise thing to do would be to do our bit to solve some of these issues.As for the comparision with Malayasia and Singapore..well as Nov said as long as we havent lived in those countries we will have no idea what problems the people there face.
Instead of praising or putting down other nations why dont we concentrate on India.
thank god, ur allright
i was goin to do shopping in london after sch with m frendz. bt now i cant. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crab
Sub-Saharan African wages are atleast one-fourth above India.
One-third of the Sub-Saharan Africans are urban compared to one-fourth of Indians.
It's an open secret that millions more are poorer in India than in Sub-Saharan Africa but could not attract aid or attention on global scale as the latter.
Ganesh79,
Do you know what sweatshops are? I dont think you do.
In the United States the federal government establishes a minimum wage and every worker here is paid the minimum wage. The minimum wage is adjusted to the Consumer Price Index(CPI) on a periodic basis.
The protests here in the US are done by students and activists who protest against the sweatshops in countries like India, Vietnam, South-east Asia, Indonesia, Colombia and other latin-american countries which are established by corporate giants in the US(Coke, Nike etc.) I myself was involved in one of the protests.
I dont think your level of understanding of global policy dynamics, international trade and finance is too good because the way you are talking is extremely pedestrian. First please refine the language you use. You are stating ideas in a manner in which two guys in some tea shop will talk. In that case nobody needs to prove anything, nobody needs to back their statements, anyone can say anything.
If this level of ignorance goes on from you it makes me so tired to reply to some very ill-informed postings from you.
Crab,
May I know the source of your figures? It indeed is interesting and not very surprising. Anyone who has studied 6+ years of economics would know this is normal for India.
Here is something else I found:
What India is worst in the world for:
http://hetv.org/india/bottom-rankings.htm
What India is best for:(some of the items are not even worthy of mention) :D
http://hetv.org/india/top-rankings.htm
Unlimited,
Ignorance is a bliss. Half knowledge (like what you have) is dangerous.
india is best for People - Population in 2015
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
pras that's not nice of you. you are my friend and you are mocking at my people.