charu nivedita's comments on veda

Vedas do not have Caste Vedas do not tell a word on Caste, but a Passing reference on Varna in Purushaskuktham.

Varna System is clsassfication under the type of Profession held and it was not by Birth as per Vedas.

One Who Seves and God and does on behalf of Others with Vedas- Brahmins
One who serves King and Kingdom and can use Sword & Arms – Kshyatrias
One who does Agriculture or trade in Agri Goods is – Vysias
One who remain as helper for all the Three – Sutras
In Mathematics Formulae is translated as Sutrams and Sutras are not Untouchables and they can come up in to the Ladder by doing other works and I put these from Maxmuller through Gilbert Slater who all patronoised Dravidain mYTHS

Certainnly Casteism in Hinduism is not a Pleasant one and I quote GILBERT Slater- who gives from Maxmuller, and I Quote from Tamil Translation by PanmozhiPulavar Appadurai.
ÁÛÅ¢ø ÌÈ¢ì¸ôÀðÎ þýÚ ÅÆ츢ÖûÇ º¡¾¢ Ó¨È §Å¾í¸Ç¢ý Á¢¸ô ÀƨÁÂ¡É ºÁÂò ¾òÐÅí¸Ç¢ø þ¼õ ¦ÀÚ¸¢È¾¡? "þø¨Ä" ±ýÈ ´§Ã¦º¡øÄ¢ø ¿¡õ «¨¾ «Øò¾Á¡¸ ÁÚðÐÅ¢¼Ä¡õ. ¦ÀÕﺢì¸ø Å¡öó¾ º¡¾¢ «¨ÁôÒ Ó¨Èò ¾¢ð¼òÐìÌ §Å¾ Ýì¾í¸Ç¢ø ±ò¾¨¸Â ¾ÃÓõ þø¨Ä. «Ð §À¡Ä§Å Ýò¾¢Ãâý þÆ¢¾¨¸ ¿¢¨Ä¨ÁìÌ ¾¡Ã§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ ÅÌôÀ¢É÷ ´Õí§¸ ÌØÁ¢ Å¡Æ, ´Õí§¸ ¯ñ½ô ÀÕ¸ò ¾¨¼ Å¢¾¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ º¡¾¢Â¢É÷ ¾õÓû ´ÕÅÕ즸¡ÕÅ÷ Á½ ¯È× ¦¸¡ûŨ¾ò ¾ÎìÌõ ӨȨÁ§Â¡; «ò¾¨¸Â Á½ ¯ÈÅ¡ø ÅÕõ À¢û¨Ç¸ÙìÌ Å¢Äì¸ ÓÊ¡¾ ¾£ìÌȢ¢ðÎð ¾£ñøò¾¸¡¾ÅḠ´Ð츢 ¨ÅìÌõ ¸ðÎôÀ¡§¼¡; ±Ð×õ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. «òмý º¢Åý, ¸¡Ç¢ ¸¢ÂÅ÷¸Ç¢ý «îºó ¾Õõ ¦ºÂø Өȸ¨Çô ÀüÈ£§Â¡; ¸ñ½É¢ý º¢üÈ¢ýÀì ¸Ç¢Â¡ð¼õ ÀüÈ¢§Â¡; .. ... §Åòò¾¢ø ´Õ ÍÅÎ Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. ¸¼×ÙìÌâ Á¾¢ô¨Àò ¾¦Á¦¾Éì ¦¸¡ñÎ ÀÆ¢ÝØõ ´Õ ÌÕÁ¡÷ ÌØÅ¢ý Å£õÒâ¨Á¸û, ÁÉ¢¾ þÉò¾¢ý þøÄí¸¨Ç Å¢Äí¸¢Éí¸Ç¢Ûõ ¸¢Æ¡¸ þÆ¢× ÀÎòÐõ Ó¨È ¸¢ÂÅü¨È ¾Ã¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼Óõ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. ÌÆó¨¾ Á½ò¾¢üÌ ¾Ã§Å¡, ÌÆó¨¾ Å¢¾¨Å¸û Á½ò¨¾ò ¾¨¼¦ºö§š ¸½Åý À¢½òмý ¯Â¢ÕûÇ ¨¸õ¦Àñ½¢ý ¯¼¨ÄÔõ ¨Åò¦¾Ã¢ìÌõ ¦À¡øÄ¡ô ÀÆì¸ò¨¾ ¾Ã¢Å¢ì¸§Å¡ «¾¢ø ´Õ Å¡º¸í Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. þ¨Å ¡×õ §Å¾ò¾¢ý ¦º¡øÖìÌõ ¦À¡ÕÙì̧Á Á¡ÚÀð¼¨Å." Quote frm Maxmuler “þó¾¢Â ¿¡¸Ã¢¸ò¾¢ø ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ô ÀñÒ”- ¸¢øÀ÷𠺢§Äð¼÷, ¾Á¢ú ¸¡.«ôÀ¡Ð¨Ã. Àì¸õ 40,41.


Now Tholkapiyam has in depth of Varna System. It denies Education to the Fourth, Fourth cannot enter trade at any time etc., Sangam Literature names many Sub-castes even such as “ Irular, Villiar, Pallar, Vettuvar, Aayar, barathavar, maravar, kuravar etc., Sangam Lit. mentions even Many Gotras of Brahmins such as “Kasiyaba, Vathula, Aathreya, Koutinya, Kousika” etc, and as per Vedic practice calling them “Twice Born” etc.,
A Friend in another Forum even gave the Etymology of Caste in Tamil Sathi:


//saar - saarthi - saathi - >>> jaati.

only tamil explains because it contains the root word "saar" or "chaar".

saarthi - saathi = saarnthathu.

saarthiyaar > saarnthavar. this phrase occurrs in tolkaapiyam.//

Any body taking a Athesitic stage can attack Old Literature, such as Kavignanar Kanimozi(Daughter of M.Karunanithi), who came in support of Freedom of Expression that Sangam Literature such as Kurnthogai and Narrinai has lot of Pre-martial Sexual relationships and Charu Nivedita supported this. Bible has extensive Racism even practiced by Jesus, but that is not discussed always but ..
We have a Pratice of Telling our Problems to Religion and Missionaries have taught like that Barahiar condemens it in his Short ARTICLE called Á¾¢ôÒ
þó¾¢Â¡¨Å ¦ÅÇ¢Ôĸò¾¡÷ À¡Á羺õ ±ýÚ ¿¢¨ÉìÌõÀÊ ¦ºö¾ Ó¾ü ÌüÈõ ¿õÓ¨¼ÂÐ. ÒÈì¸ÕÅ¢¸ û ÀÄ. ӾġÅÐ, ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢. «¦Áâ측ŢÖõ ³§Ã¡ôÀ¡Å¢Öõ º¢Ä ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢¸û, ¾í¸û Á¾ Å¢„ÂÁ¡É À¢Ãº¡Ãò¨¾ ¯ò§¾º¢òÐ ¿õ¨Áì ÌÈ¢òÐô ¦Àâ ¦Àâ ¦À¡ö¸û ¦º¡øÄ¢, þôÀÊ𠾡úóÐ §À¡ö Á¸ð¾¡É «¿¡¸Ã¢¸ ¿¢¨Ä¢ø þÕìÌõ ƒÉí¸¨Çì ¸¢È¢ŠÐ Á¼ò¾¢§Ä §º÷òÐ §Áý¨ÁôÀÎòÐõ Òñ½¢Âò¨¼î ¦ºöž¡¸î ¦º¡øÖ¸¢È¸û. þóÐì¸û ÌÆ󨾸¨Ç ¿¾¢Â¢§Ä §À¡Î¸¢È¡÷¸û ±ýÚõ, Šòâ¸¨Ç (Ó츢ÂÁ¡¸, «¿¡¨¾¸Ç¡öô ÒÕ„÷¸¨Ç þÆóÐ ¸¾¢Â¢øÄ¡Áø þÕìÌõ ¨¸õ¦Àñ¸¨Ç) ¿¡ö¸¨Çô §À¡Ä ¿¼òи¢È÷¸û ±ýÚõ ÀÄÅ¢¾Á¡É «ÀÅ¡¾í¸û ¦º¡øÖ¸¢È¡÷¸û. ¿õÓ¨¼Â ƒ¡¾¢ô À¢Ã¢×¸Ç¢¦Ä þÕìÌõ ÌüÈí¸¨Ç¦ÂøÄ¡õ â¾ì¸ñ½¡Ê ¨ÅòÐì ¸¡ðθ¢È¡÷¸û. þó¾ì ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢¸Ç¡§Ä ¿ÁìÌ §¿÷ó¾ «ÅÁ¡Éõ «ÇÅ¢ø¨Ä. Barathiyar, ¸ðΨÃ- Á¾¢ôÒ

So Vedas which as per Panmozi Arignanar Jaggannatha Raja- in his Book “Tamilum Pragiruthamum” published by TN Govts. International Tamil Studies- dated 5000-1000BCE, has much superior Science and Maths etc., is ignored.

Let us value Literaure for its positives please.

1) That Persons of so-called "Brahman Race" or "Brahman Varna" were Intellectually Superior to Other Races or Varnas.

The Brahmans' dogma of the racial superiority of the Brahman Varna or Race (`varna'=`color' or `race' in Sanskrit) was fully elucidated in the Lawbook of Manu, the standard law-book of Hinduism :

" Of created beings the most excellent are said to be those which are animated,; of the animated, those which subsist by intelligence; of the intelligent, mainkind, and of men, the Brahmanas."
-- [ Manu.I.96 ]
(2) That the Brahmans were a `Master Race' and Thus Accordingly Entitled to Subjugate, Exploit, Exterminate or Dominate other `Races' (`varnas') or Peoples.

This doctrine was explicitly stated in the Manu-Smrti :

"As the Brahmana sprang from (Brahman's) mouth, as he was the first-born, and as he possesses the Veda, he is by right the lord of this whole creation ."
-- [ Manu.I.93 ]
The logical consequence of the `master race' dogma was the right of Brahmins to dominate over other `inferior' poples and to acquire their territories. This is disclosed by several statements in `sacred' Brahmanist texts, which state that the entire Universe belongs by birthright to the Brahmins :

" A Brahmana, coming into existence, is born as the highest on earth, the lord of all created beings, for the protection of the treasure of the law."
" Whatever exists in the world is, the property of the Brahmana; on account of the excellence of his origin the Brahmana is, indeed entitled to all ."
-- [ Manu.I.99-100 ]
"The wealth that is stolen by the Brahman tends to well being in the next life ; the wealth that is given to the Sudra tends to Hell." (Sukraniti)
-- [ Tirth.118 ]
" When a learned Brahmana has found treasure, deposited in former (times), he may take even the whole (of it); for he is the master of everything."
" When the king finds treasure of old concealed in the ground let him give one half to Brahmanas and place the (other) half in his treasury."
-- [ Manu.VIII.37-38 ]
" that (money which is given) to Brahmanas is declared to be an imperishable treasure for kings."
-- [ Manu.I.82 ]
In addition, the confiscation of properties of women and Sudras was openly legalised by Vaishnava scriptures :
A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong.

Thus, the unlawful confiscation of the properties of non-Brahman races was justified and fully sanctioned in the holy scriptures of Hinduism (or Brahmanism), and this act glorified. The Mahabharata states,
"The son of Ita then inquired: Tell me Vayu, to whom the earth, with its wealth, rightfully belongs to the Brahman or the Kshatriya? Vayu replied: All this whatever exists in the world, is the Brahmans property by right of primogeniture : this is known to those who are skilled in the laws of duty. It is his own which the Brahman eats, puts on, bestows. He is the chief of all the castes, the first-born and the most excellent. Just as the woman when she has lost her (first) husband takes her brother-in-law for a second; so the Brahman is the first resource in calamity; afterwards another may arise (Mahabharata)."
-- [ MBh.Saptaparvam, verse, 2755 ] [ cited in Sup ]
Summarising the situation, Swami Dharma Theertha wrote in his classic `History of Hindu Imperialism',
"Probably no other class of persons in any society ever combined in themselves all these advantages so exclusively as the Brahmans. It is equally doubtful if any other aristocratic class has ever exercised their privileges to the detriment of the common people so unscrupulously and for so long a period as these Brahman priests."
-- [ Tirth.113-114 ] [ cited at Sup ]
He further observes,
" No imperial power ever imposed on a weaker people a more ruthless and soul-destroying domination than the Brahmans did on the rest of their fellow citizens, and no race of superior men ever arrogated to themselves such haughty supremacy and false greatness as they have."
-- [ Tirth.163-164 ] [ Sup ]

Friends,

Anticrap has given few quotes from Manusmirithi

As I have said Vedas belong to BCE5000 -1000. and these are Sruthis. Until Valmiki Ramayan and Mahabharat are PrePanini pre 5th Cen. BCE.

Manusmirithi is post Panini and please differenciate.

Tholkappiyam denies education to 4th Varna and Classifies duties of Brahmins, Kshyathrias and Vysias more clearly.

Please look at the Development of Agri based Social Growths and Non-Brahmin High Caste Hindus are the Major Benefaciaries of the Caste System, and was developed for them.

Devapriya

Your datings for various events in different threads are highly inconsistent mate.

There is no evidence that Tolkappiyam denied education to anyone.
The purpose of the treatise is to lay down rules for the Tamil language; not to grant or take away anyone's rights.

Friends,

solomon wrote :"Anticrap has given few quotes from Manusmirithi "
we all have eyes we can see that.

solomon wrote : "As I have said Vedas belong to BCE5000 -1000. and these are Sruthis. Until Valmiki Ramayan and Mahabharat are PrePanini pre 5th Cen. BCE. "
There is no scientific evidence that any of these documents happened before Indus valley civilization, even after the demise of the indus valley, the prakrits were not well developed so sanskrit/vedic was still not created. Sanskrit was created well after Paninni (ie., after 5 BCE accordinig to you) because Paninni gave the grammer for the language called 'chandasa' later the artificial language sanskrit adopted it for itself.



solomon wrote :"Tholkappiyam denies education to 4th Varna and Classifies duties of Brahmins, Kshyathrias and Vysias more clearly. "

That is blasphemy, 'payanthavan kannuku ellame payei', so for the vedic fanatics every thing they see has inhuman filth just like the vedas.

solomon wrote :"Please look at the Development of Agri based Social Growths and Non-Brahmin High Caste Hindus are the Major Benefaciaries of the Caste System, and was developed for them. "
Yeah right, what broad minded the brahmins were, they created the caste system for the benefit of others.

Friends,

I have quoted barathiar on wrong projection of India outside.

Now same about it with Wrong Translations of Vedas.

Dravidian protogonist was Gilbert Slater and his book Translator Appadurai is another such, they have accepted that Vedas do not have Caste, again quoting Maxmuller.

The Major Beneficiaries of caste is UPPER Caste Non-Brahmin Land Lord and Rich, is History.

Devapriya

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Wrong Translations of Vedas.

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What wrong translation??

Quote:

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Dravidian protogonist was Gilbert Slater

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How can Slater be a Dravidian protogonist?

Quote:

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they have accepted that Vedas do not have Caste,

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Pl quote para and page.

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The Major Beneficiaries of caste is UPPER Caste Non-Brahmin Land Lord and Rich,

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Why do you say so? -- When they cannot get the pujaari job in the temple?

Friends,

Maxmuller was appointed by British Church, from Plundered Money from India, to translate Vedas for the Convinience to Misiiionaries, details of this in any other Approprite Thread.

Maxmuller's Own letter- //Max Müller, in a letter to his wife wrote in 1886: 'The translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of millions of souls in that
country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3 000 years.//

And Lot of mistakes, as Swami Daynanda was following him and attacking of his frauds, later he need to be very careful and still his translations were not fully appropriate. I SHALL give details shortly.

On his fradulant dating of Vedas Maxmuller himself
//Max Müller himself conceded the purely conjectural nature of the Vedic chronology, and in the last work published shortly before his death, The Six Systems of Indian Philosophy, admitted: 'Whatever may be the date of the Vedic hymns, whether 1500 or 15 000 BCE, they have their own unique place and stand by themselves in the literature of the world' //

So We need to be very cautious of meaninglessly attacking Indian Civilisation of its basics.

BISmalas and Mahadevans have problems in knowing Truths on Tholkappiyam . If you keep your Eyes Closed; World wont stop functioning. Tholkappiyam has rigorous caste classification including denying Divine Duties to 4th Varna and Denying Eduction to them.

Please read Literatrue; and come for discussion.

Devapriya

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//Max Müller, in a letter in 1886: 'The translation of the Veda ................... It is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3 000 years.//

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Maxie wrongly thought that Indian religious practices were based on the books called Vedas. Except a minority that went round chanting mantras using the methodology of the vedas, these books had no real application at all to the religious practices of the masses!! Maxie the Christian thought the natives of India apply the books in their daily religious practices (like the Christians apply the Bible ) which is false

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//And Lot of mistakes,//

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What mistakes and what was the impact of these mistakes??

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On his fradulant dating of Vedas Maxmuller himself ................
//Max Müller himself conceded the purely conjectural nature of the Vedic chronology, and in the last work published shortly before his death, The Six Systems of Indian Philosophy, admitted: 'Whatever may be the date of the Vedic hymns, whether 1500 or 15 000 BCE, they have their own unique place and stand by themselves in the literature of the world' //

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We need to be very cautious of ......

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Yes, this is what we have been saying. The dates up to now by all these so called scholars are all conjectural. Thank you for admitting it

Brahmins in Sangam Literature(200bce-200CE and Thokappiyam always referred as Parppan, Anthanar, Iyer etc., Now I GIVE from ThiruMurugatrupadai,Which in Depth gives us that They wear Punol with 9 Threads, do VEDIC Rituals of raising Tri-Fire Daily and Practice Vedas. And One of the Faces of Muruga ( Lord Muruga’s Birth Stories in Thirumurugatrupadai has inlfluences of Birth Stories of Marutham in Rig Veda) is for Vedic Brahmins is for Poet says.

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²Ã¸ò ШȾÖõ ¯Ã¢Âý, «¾¡ «ýÚ Tjirumuru 178-189

I quote from TamilArignanar aru.Chinnaamy- Thamizar Samuthaya Varalaaaru – VANathi Pathippagam 1979, and it has former Speaker of Tamilnadu assembly and Secretary of EV.Ramasamy Naicker- K.RAsaram, a Scholar on his own right giving Preface.
“ வகுப்புப் பிரிவும் வருணாசிரம முறையும் ஆரியர்களிடம் இல்லை. அவர்கள் சென்ற வேறுநாடுகளிலும் இல்லை. இந்திய துணைக் கண்டத்தில் மட்டுமே உண்டு. உண்மையே1 ..

பார்ப்பனர், அரசர், வணிகர், வேளாளர் எனப் பகுத்து, காப்பியர் சமுதாய இயல் அமைக்கிறார். நால்வகைப் பிரிவையும் அவர்களின் கடமைகளையும் காப்பியர் குறிப்பிடுகிறார்.

«Ú Ũ¸ô Àð¼ À¡÷ôÀÉô Àì¸Óõ
³ Ũ¸ ÁÃÀ¢ý «Ãº÷ Àì¸Óõ
*Õ ãýÚ ÁÃÀ¢ý ²§É¡÷ Àì¸Óõ-

பார்ப்பனர்களுக்கு ஓதல், ஓதுவித்தல், வேட்டல், வேட்பித்தல், ஈதல், இரத்தல் என்னும் ஆறு தொழில்களைக் காப்பியர் விதிக்கிறார். அரசர்களுக்கு ஓதல், வேள்வி செய்தல், ஈதல், நாட்டைக் காத்தல், தீயோரைத் தண்டித்தல் முதலிய ஐந்து தொழில்கள் உண்டு என்கிறார். வணிகர்களுக்கு ஓதல், வேள்வி செய்தல், ஈதல், உழவு, கால்நடை பேணல், வணிகம் முதலிய ஆறுவகைத் தொழில்களை அமைக்கிறார். வேளாளர்க்கு ஓதல், ஈதல், உழவு, கால்நடை பேணல், வணிகம், மேலோர் மூவர்க்கும் ஏவல் புரிதல் என விதிக்கிரார்.

பூணூல், தண்ணீர்க் குண்டான், முக்கோல், ஆசனம் முதலிய பார்ப்பனர்களுக்
கு ரியனவாகும் மன்னர்களுக்கும் மக்களுக்கும் நல்லுரை கூறுவதும் அவர்களின் கடமையாகும். அவர்கள் அரசு புரிவதற்கும் உரிமை உடையவர்கள். மேலும், சமுதாயத்தின் முதல் மரியாதைக்கும் உரியவர்களாவர்.


á§Ä ¸Ã¸õ Ó째¡ø Á¨½§Â
Ôõ ¸¡¨Ä «ó¾½÷ìÌ ¯Ã¢Â. 71

அ󾽡Ç÷ìÌ «ÃÍ Å¨Ã× *ý§È. 83

பேணுதகு சிறப்பின் பார்ப்பான்.

ஆயுதம் ஏந்தும் உரிமை அரசர்களுக்கும் வணிகர்களுக்கும் மட்டுமே உண்டு. மற்றவகளுக்கு இல்லையென்கிறார் காப்பியர். வணிகர்களுக்கு அரசர்கள் போல் மலரும் மாலையும் உண்டு. வணிகர்கள், வியாபாரத்துடன் விவசாயமும் செய்து உணவுத் தான்யங்களை உற்பத்தி செய்தனர்.

*¨¼ *Õ Å¨¸§Â¡÷ «øÄÐ ¿¡Êý
À¨¼ Ũ¸ ¦ÀÈ¡«÷ ±ýÁÉ¡÷ ÒÄÅ÷. 77
¨Åº¢¸ý ¦ÀÚ§Á Å¡½¢¸ Å¡ú쨸.


¸ñ½¢Ôõ ¾¡Õõ ±ñ½¢É÷ ñ§¼. 80

¦Áö ¦¾Ã¢ Ũ¸Â¢ý ±ñ Ũ¸ ¯½Å¢ý
¦ºö¾¢Ôõ Ũá÷ «ô À¡Ä¡É. 79

வேளாளர்க்கு உழவுத் தொழில் தவிர வேறு தொழில் இல்லை என்பது காப்பியரின் முடிவு. ஆனால் அரசர்கள் விரும்பினால், படைக்கலம் பெற்று மாலை பூண்டு போர் வீரர்களாய் பணி புரியலாம்.

§ÅÇ¡ñ Á¡ó¾÷ìÌ ¯Øàñ «øÄÐ
*ø ±É ¦Á¡Æ¢À À¢È Ũ¸ ¿¢¸ú. 81

§ÅóРŢΠ¦¾¡Æ¢Ä¢ý À¨¼Ôõ ¸ñ½¢Ôõ
Å¡öó¾É÷ ±ýÀ «Å÷ ¦ÀÚõ ¦À¡Õ§Ç. 82
காப்பியரின் சமூக் இயலில் உழவன் கடையனாக்கப் பட்டான்; ஆனால் ய்ழுதுண்போர் உழுவித்து உண்போர் என இரண்டு பிரிவுகள் உண்டெனக் கூறிக் காப்பியரின்.. பக்கம் 44-46.

மேலும் கற்பு மணம் என்பதுற்கு திருமணச் சடங்குகளுடன், தகுதியுடையவனுக்கு, பெண் கொடுக்க உரிமையுள்ள பெற்றோர் கொடுக்கத் தலைவன் மணந்து கொள்வது என்று விளக்கம் தருகிறார். இத்திருமணச் சடங்கு அந்தணர், அரசர், வணிகர் ஆகிய முப்பிரிவினர்க்கே ஏற்பட்டது. பின்பு கீழ்ப்பட்ட வேளாளர் போன்ற மரபினர்க்கும் உரியன என்று விதிக்கப் பட்ட கால்மும் உண்டென்கிறார்.

¦À¡öÔõ ÅØ×õ §¾¡ýȢ À¢ýÉ÷
³Â÷ ¡ò¾É÷ ¸Ã½õ ±ýÀ.

¸üÒ ±ÉôÀÎÅÐ ¸Ã½¦Á¡Î Ò½Ã
¦¸¡ÇüÌ ¯Ã¢ ÁÃÀ¢ý ¸¢ÆÅý ¸¢Æò¾¢¨Â
¦¸¡¨¼ìÌ ¯Ã¢ ÁÃÀ¢§É¡÷ ¦¸¡ÎôÀ ¦¸¡ûÅЧÅ. 1

§Á§Ä¡÷ ãÅ÷ìÌõ Ò½÷ò¾ ¸Ã½õ
¸£§Æ¡÷ìÌ ¸¢Â ¸¡ÄÓõ ¯ñ§¼. 3

… காதல் வாழ்விற்கு பத்துப் பண்புகள் தேவை என்கிறார்; பிறப்பால் உயர்ந்த ஒத்த ஆணும் பெண்ணும் காமக்கூடத்தில் சந்திக்க இயலும் என்கிறார்.

À¢Èô§À ÌʨÁ ñ¨Á ñ¦¼¡Î
¯Õ× ¿¢Úò¾ ¸¡Á š¢ø
¿¢¨È§Â «Õ§Ç ¯½÷¦Å¡Î ¾¢Õ ±É
Ó¨ÈÔÈì ¸¢Çó¾ ´ôÀ¢ÉРŨ¸§Â. 25

´ý§È §Å§È ±ýÚ *Õ À¡øÅ¢ý
´ýÈ¢ ¯Â÷ó¾ À¡ÄÐ ¨½Â¢ý
´ò¾ ¸¢ÆÅÛõ ¸¢Æò¾¢Ôõ ¸¡ñÀ
Á¢ì§¸¡ý ¢Ûõ ¸Ê Ũà *ý§È. 2- பக்கம் 48-49//
This is just sample and many more are there in Tholkaapiyar.

À¡÷ôÀ¡÷ «È¢Å÷ ±ýÚ *Å÷ ¸¢ÇÅ¢
¡÷ìÌõ Ũá÷ ¡ô¦À¡Î Ò½÷ó§¾. 189

*ýÀÓõ ¦À¡ÕÙõ «ÈÛõ ±ýÈ¡íÌ
«ý¦À¡Î Ò½÷ó¾ ³ó¾¢¨½ ÁÕí¸¢ý
¸¡Áì Üð¼õ ¸¡Ïõ ¸¡¨Ä
Á¨È§Â¡÷ §¾±òÐ ÁýÈø ±ð¼Ûû
Ð¨È «¨Á ¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷ *Âø§À.1

«ÁÃ÷¸ñ ÓÊÔõ «Ú Ũ¸Â¡Ûõ

§Á§Ä¡÷ ӨȨÁ ¿¡øÅ÷ìÌõ ¯Ã¢ò§¾. 31
ÁýÉ÷ À¡í¸¢ý À¢ý§É¡÷ ÌÀ. 32
¯Â÷󧾡÷ìÌ ¯Ã¢Â µò¾¢É¡É. 33

µ¾ø À¨¸§Â àÐ *¨Å À¢Ã¢§Å. 27
«ÅüÚû,
µ¾Öõ àÐõ ¯Â÷󧾡÷ §ÁÉ. 28
Here Thuthu is only for Brahmins and KSHYTHRIAS, AND Education is only for Upper Castes. 4th Varna is denied of education.

Still more is there. As I have quoted Barathiyar- to say ill of Indic and Tamil Tradition is of No-use, We with our Education should overcome it, the Untouchability practiced by Upper Caste Non-Brahmins neither is dependent on Vedas or Sangam but because of habitual, and by not asking Caste to anybody and Caste based reservations being linked with Financial status and slow Elimination are the solutions.

Bismala and Mahadevan only show their lack of education of what Sangam-Tholkaapiyam -Manimekhalai has, and Valluvar rightly says:
//402. ¸øÄ¡¾¡ý ¦º¡ü¸¡ ÓÚ¾ø ӨĢÃñÎõ
þøÄ¡¾¡ý ¦Àñ¸¡Óü ÈüÚ.
Unlearned man aspiring speech 402
Is breastless lady's love-approach.// Lady without breasts love would be Unattractive and same is Uneducated trying to say about the Literature- what they do not know.

I WELCOME Intercaste Marriages and every Citizen becoming Vegetarians as Valluvar says and all read the necessary Ahamams and become Archakars.

But 90% of the temples in Tamilnadu are MAriamman and Kali temples and Archakars are Non-Brahmins only. Govt pay for 90% of the Archakars on a Consolidated Rs.300-800 per month ( Lessthan 10-20 US$), Is this You are asking for? The Average age of Catholic Priest of America is above 50 years in spite of pay of morethan 3000$ due to lack of Interest for the next generation to take that post.

Please maintain a Decorum. Vedas belong t0 5000-1000BCE and Sangam and Tholkappyam to 200BCE to 200CE. We live 2006, instead of blaming our mistakes on pasts,Let us look at positive traits.

Devapriya.

There were no castes as such during Sangam. There were "kudis" not the same as caste. They freely married between different professions. Thus a pujaari ( paarppaan) guy could marry a fisherman.s daughter.

For north, look at vEdavyaasan.(I believe he ws S.Indian). His mom was a "fisher=woman". vAAlmiki was a hunter. They were nevertheless "BrahmanaNa" as they realised the "Brahman" or god. Such was the situation in n.India; as it was in the south.

Casteism developed later. Please do not put the cart before the horse!!

Dear Friends,

Bismals lives on a Island of foolishness.

Thani Tamil Chavunist writers such as Pavanar, Maraimlai Aadigal all took out verses referring to their Castes and claimed that they are the Oldest Tamil tribes.

Pavanar's interpretation of meaning of Marai - ANthanar- Parppan and Iyer all to Brahmins is given.

It is because of Thani Tamil movement writers using Caste from Sangam- Tamil nadu has become more Caste Ridden in last 40 years.

SO Caste is abundant in Sangam Literatur and Tholkappiyar says no education to 4th Caste. Tholkappiyar praises Burning of Women with Dead Husband- Sathi, not in Vedas and not even in Manusmrithi.

Devapriya

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by devapriya

Dear Friends,

Bismals lives on a Island of foolishness.

Thani Tamil Chavunist writers such as Pavanar, Maraimlai Aadigal all took out verses referring to their Castes and claimed that they are the Oldest Tamil tribes.

Pavanar's interpretation of meaning of Marai - ANthanar- Parppan and Iyer all to Brahmins is given.

It is because of Thani Tamil movement writers using Caste from Sangam- Tamil nadu has become more Caste Ridden in last 40 years.

SO Caste is abundant in Sangam Literatur and Tholkappiyar says no education to 4th Caste. Tholkappiyar praises Burning of Women with Dead Husband- Sathi, not in Vedas and not even in Manusmrithi.

Devapriya

---

Why dont you quote some examples.?

Dear Friends,

I am not really happy about Casteism. It can be abolished only if we stop asking it in Schools, and for Jobs. But the really Underprevilaged must be helped. BUT The present system is not really that.

As for my quoting- when Bismala and Mahadevan bluffed Tholkappiyam does not have Caste and that It denies Education to the Fourth, I have given the proofs and how Tamil Scholars look at it.

I feel Past Scholars with Dubious writings be ignored and stop saying Bad against them, by ignoring them. If you insist I can quote

Devapriya

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by devapriya

Dear Friends,

I am not really happy about Casteism. It can be abolished only if we stop asking it in Schools, and for Jobs.

---

So these jobs and education can be taken by already rich and educated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by devapriya

Dear Friends,

As for my quoting- when Bismala and Mahadevan bluffed Tholkappiyam does not have Caste and that It denies Education to the Fourth, I have given the proofs and how Tamil Scholars look at it.

Devapriya

---

So since it is mentioned by tamils, you say it is correct ?