I think the title "Why IR music hasn't got global recognition?" does not paint a good picture.
A better title would be just "Global recognition of IR's music".
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I think the title "Why IR music hasn't got global recognition?" does not paint a good picture.
A better title would be just "Global recognition of IR's music".
ananth222,
I too thought the same way. I support your request.
While you guyz are wondering why IR hasnt got global recongition..doesnt it pain everyone of you that IR so far hasnt reacted to ARR achievement. Other than Yuvan to an extent, I havnt seen anyone heap praises on ARR achievement. I dont care if SDM score is the "greatest". ARR did what noone .. i repeat NOONE in the history of Indian Music has done. He will have no more peers at the end of this. He transends everyone in terms of his success. My prediction and prayers will be two oscars for him.
That leaves us to the big question why is IR silent?. Even the non-ARR camp will acknowledge ARR humilty above everything else. When TIS was announced, ARR was there, celebrating him. I saw no pretensions in his speech.My regards for IR as a musician is unparralled, but he has let me down on this one. I no longer care about his global recognition. IR holds the highest place in my heart. I still sincerely hope when ARR returns home with 2 oscars, IR will be there to welcome him. When MSV can openly declare his love for IR, I think he can do the same as well. Maybe not for his music, but the fact that ARR has elevated the indian music scene.
ARR deserves everything thats been given to him.
Like the movie saying,
Question: Why do you think ARR deserves all this success?
Answer : D. It is written
I recently saw raja's interview in kalaignar TV in youtube. When Bavatharini asked who is his favourite music director of the current times he answered that he too is scoring music in current times in a lighter vein. But he insisted 2 things, whoever scores music that touches his heart they are his favourites and one musician can never truely appreciates another as he always considers himself to be the best.
As far as this global recongition for IR music is concerned to me its no issue. Raja is more of a classical oriented musician rather than responding to the demands of current times which will eventually disappear in the tides of times.
His music even after 100 years will create a sense of wonder in the minds of listeners and they will appreciate the creative genius of him. His creations are timeless. He will never get the kind of recongition some of his fans are looking for (ie., An oscar or GGA)
But that no way can diminish his musical achievements.
Take the case of Mahatma he never won a nobel for peace.... but all the peace movements in the world, all the leaders of it get inspired by him. It holds gud for Raja also in the field of music...
ananth,
I came up with that title because I think it reflects the central theme of this thread. My intention was not to offend anybody. That said, I leave it to irir123 to edit it as desired.
sloshed: why.. you want to start all over again?? That's quite irrelevant here.
Well i have been looking into the working style of these two and i can say that this might be the closest i can get to IR's thoughts.
The thing about ARR is that as much as he is a extremely talented musician, his success and achievements are bound by commercial viability. He cannot afford to refuse good offers that come his way to give good music and of course aim for the best to keep competition out of his way. That defines him as the best film music composer in india but commercially and in terms of success.
When we look at IR, he is more of a music scientist. Even though he did come to film music just like ARR and came in to achieve, his thoughts were more about "to conduct an orchestra" or like how "raagams can be applied to western classical music" rather than reinventing himself to stay ahead of his competitors.
His dreams have never been about film music, it was rather researching and exploring it to see what other gems can be found. If you notice his three most famous non-film albums they are not to show just his composing ability but his burning desire to research music. How to name it showed us that indian instruments can be used for a symphony format in four movements and also raagams can be used to relate with a western classical piece. Nothing but wind was IR's theory that music is really nothing but wind, just changed to suit out ears in film music or commercial music. And thiruvasagam was IR's trial to see if a divine set of lyrics can cope with a symphony orchestra to bring out its intended emotions.
Watch the interviews of ARR and IR. While ARR interviews are more about achieving and his desire to enthrall audiences around the world IR's interviews are about he would stop composing if he knew all about music. He always mentions there is alot to explore. They are both totally different set of people. A hollywood film will mean a good chance for ARR to step up but for IR it is just a film which he can compose in 30mins. No challenge .
Now how does this bring us to the topic? Simply because IR does not believe in awards, publicity or overachieving. He is more about " give me something that can make me think and create a composition to explore it ". He does not bother about global recognition and awards. It is more about we as music listeners understand the theory he is bringing in his compositions.
ARR - Music composer.
IR - Music scientist.
A music composer will be elated at the sight of a better film, a music scientist will be elated at the thought of a totally challenging theory that has not been stepped into yet.
Hulk, to me, i see music in IR's music but i see GOD in ARR's music.......so, u r analogy of composer/scientist will only be accepted by IR fans not by the general public............
hulky, for me, even if ARR hadnt got oscars/GG awards, hadnt got bombay dreams, chinese movie, Padmashri, Bollywood power status - he is still GOD to me........more than anything else - i connect to his music, dont care if others can connect to him or not, yea ofcourse i feel proud when an american feels the same way as me while listening to thalaivar, but thats secondary.........i will not feel bad at all if one day, Yuvan wins more oscars than him
Good post Hulkster. I agree with what you are saying.
You say that IR is a Music Scientist - Invention of "Panchamukhi" raaga is a solid proof for your statement. I don't know how well this raaga was accepted by legends in Carnatic Music. But his attempt in inventing this new raaga is genuine and this shows the "burning desire", "innovation", "creativity" in him. IR is second to no one in this world.
Once again, thanks for using the word "scientist" to describe IR. Suits well.
Hulkster
thats an intersting take and i too agree with you. Infact, i too felt the same about the approaches of these 2 composers.
My only point is: if IR's thinking graph as been exploratively upward since 1976, then..as a scientist, he should be conducting more experiements in his lab and publish his research papers (instrumental albums) instead of just picking up something which any other 'composer' can do.TIS was one, the experiment was phenomenal, but not the method of publishing it.
In my opinion, he will do spectacularly well if we works more on instrurmental works - harnessing his core strengths, instead of not so great films. ofcourse, he can still work on films parallely. lets not forget that the pieces of How to Name It were written during the breaks he took between films an recordings sessions.
Why not now?
I think Raaja badly needs hype because music fans except some fans who needs good music to listen, do not care about Raaja.
Same as IR fan i also think IR is GOD but what i am talking about is their difference in the way they approach music as in their thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by MADDY
ARR is unfortunately bound by commercial boundaries from what i can see. Nothing to do with talent or comparison just the path he took. The thing is ARR is trying to achieve what others could not do in india, make the whole world listen to indian music and that to achieve it in a sense where nobody can reach which he has already proven.
However IR does not believe in achieving for awards or to prove himself. It is more about exploring music on what challenge it can give him. He is like someone who is not bothered by film music, rather he is bothered about what facets music can have and what else it may contain.
The reason why i posted like this was to show my opinion on why i think IR has not got global recognition. Not because of financial relationships or attitude....its just that his theory and belief about composing is totally different to ARR.
Down the years people will remember ARR as the best indian film music composer but IR will be remembered more as someone who tried to define music. Nothing to do with fans,talent,success or whatever just explaining the two different approches to music these two have :D
All i have heard is that IR plans to do alot of non-filmi albums, infact alot of ideas about his theory about music that it is nothing but wind but just that it might be so "un-commercial" and as a result nobody might want to come forward to finance it. I just hope he does something like that cause i want to listen to his theory rather than get astounded by his orchestral prowess which he has done countless times.Quote:
Originally Posted by raagas
i do not see why u think this way.........i have never seen ARR saying that........if u look at his growth path - at all stages, it was his associates,who felt he was something extraordinary and tried to showcase him to west........he never went about it.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulkster
in that case, i would also say, IR tried global recognition and went after commercial success when he agreed to do RPH symphony? u know, he has not done anything for free in the name of music - i do not see how he is different......infact it is ARR who has put money to bring in KM conservatory so that a "Indian orchestra" is established in the future........
i dont know how you conclude that ARRahman has commercial reasons for his music...........i have never seen him giving music for awards or recognition.....infact, i can say with pride he is the only Thamizh MD who has not resorted to Dappankuthhu to make a song hit - dappankuthhu amounts to pop music in TN, he has used this genre very rarely to good effect........i know for a fact, he composes for petty money in maniratnam;'s films and he composed for half money in varalaaru for his friend K.S.Ravikumar...........this man is all about music, money/recognition are just his fans :)Quote:
Down the years people will remember ARR as the best indian film music composer but IR will be remembered more as someone who tried to define music. Nothing to do with fans,talent,success or whatever just explaining the two different approches to music these two have :D
also, u have kept repeating urself that IR attained global recognition many years before ARR in many of ur posts - now why are you saying that he didnt get it?? i dont get it honsetly :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulkster
Maddy once again your deviating from the topic, I did not mention ARR says that, its just that the path he is taking is what i mentioned.
I can go on mentioning about examples of about how IR has not go for commercial aspects and you will come with examples of ARR as well to counter it. This will go on till the next century and by then we might have great grand-children. Its like naan veyttuna nee veyttuva nee veyttuna naan veyttuvayn. Its quite obvious that we are not going to bow down in the support of our respective music idols.
As i said IR has never done music for the sake of commercial. Its about the challenge it gives. I derive this opinion basically from the interviews he gives. The fella never talks about how he can compose better he always mentions like "Music is something we can never explore. If i know it i will stop composing." and also a interview with Guitar prasanna where he was mentioned as only talking about counterpoints and stuff. Quite clearly he is so musically oriented that the commercial aspect that is film music does not bother him. I only brought in ARR to show the paths they took, to show their difference.
To summarise my view : ARR is bound by film music and its business aspects, IR is not. As simple as that. Dunt bother bringing in examples of this and that cause i will bring in and like i said this will go on till next century.
One post and yes i mentioned it but this post is more about the theory of why IR is not bothered about global recognition. IR does have global recognition but the people here are discussing in depth more about IR's thoughts about it. So in this case i had to explain more about IR's approach to music and why he does not believe in global recognition.Quote:
Originally Posted by MADDY
There are examples to show his global recognition but whats the point? IR does not seem to be bothered about it and his fans dunt really understand why. This post is to give a opinion on why IR is like that.
i do not agree about ur summary either - bcos u havent established why u think ARR is bound by commercial reasons..........its ur assumption :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulkster
fight for centuries :lol: dont worry, its just me, my kids will grow with their own set of opinions, i wont try to make them ARR fans, they are free to choose IR as well :wink:
Well its because of their approach to film music. One used film music to "explain" his theory while the other used it to showcase his talent as a stepping stone for bigger achievements. :D
Sorry to say this Hulkster, but your posts make me think of two words only: "Sour Grapes"
I dont want to go further on this but it will be good for everyone concerned if ARR is not brought into the discussion.
:wave:
Ada Vivek-ku kuda Padmashri Kuduthutaanga...Nalla Comedy Nadakkuthu
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fliflo
Local recognition-e kedaikkalai'ngarabodhu global recognition ellam eppadi... :lol:
India-le thaan intha koothu nadakkum
http://www.nakkheeran.in/users/frmNews.aspx?N=2460
Vivek unga mele enakku kovam-ille. Aana raja mele govt-kku enna avvalavu oravanjanai.
Athusari-Atha vaangi mattum enna paNRathu.
Kannadhasan sonnathai pol "Moodargal Mathiyil Kannudan Vazhvathu athuthaan Thollaiyada"
Hulk,
In my opinion, to reduce what ARR's music stands for to just "commerce" is totally wrong and from such a premise, one would do great harm than good in a "debate" or dissection of these two great composers
I hope that this thread is not a debate on who is a better composer, or about what kind of people get what kind of awards.
This thread should be about how the production and marketing of IRs recent albums matches up with global standards, and what can be done to enhance it and improve the reach of his albums to the wider world.
My theerpu as to why world hasn't recognized the genius in Raaja yet?
Because...
The world is not ready to recognize Raaja kind of genius yet.
Amadeus mozart died a poor man and was buried in a common pit along with tens of other ordinary men. centuries later even kids grow up listening to mozart. Now this doesn't make him a lesser genius. In his time there were other geniuses who were recognized and patronized. However Mozart's genius couldnt be understood by the world fully when he was alive. most of his operas were failures when he wrote them and conducted them.
So Raaja's time is probably lying in the future. How distant time it is I dont' Know. However Raaja and his fans can appreciate one thing. Right to the last man in an obscure Thamizh Naadu village he is known and his songs are hummed every day. This is something that even mozart did not get.
jaiganes - the Mozart analogy is a viewpoint from a broader perspective - however its still a viewpoint, thats all! during the days of Mozart, he never had the adulation of millions of fans like you and me, and Mozart did not have the medium of cinema to express his genius!
whereas IR had it, did use it effectively but not as efficiently as he could have - this is not about getting global recognition alone - personally, for me, if IR gets an Oscar, and thereafter makes albums not worthy of his standards, the Oscar is not worth it! I have come to expect a certain standard (am sure there are others too) from IR which he himself has set in the 80s through the 90s.
its my conviction, assumption that if a genius like IR does not get recognised through awards in a meaningful manner, he might not come out/be encouraged to come out with albums that would fulfil his creative quest as well as our musical needs! - had TiS gotten big in the world music circles, by now, IR wud have been sought after by groups for doing more creative stuff - then IR cud have demanded that he do such and such a thing - in this context, my rant is that oppurtunities (such as TiS, MM) that surely cud have been handled better, went abegging!!
At another level, its gross injustice that his works done so far, have not been given their due!
irir123 et. al, TIS is a completely botched opportunity. I really dont understand what went wrong. All that bad blood has left a bad taste in my mouth, that I really dont listen to TIS that much, as it reminds me of all the sincerity and sacrifice that so many fans put into it, which got brutally wasted.
It is technically an amazing piece of work, that a Grammy should have been a piece of cake, yet it just languishes away.
Still, the lack of a Golden Globe, Oscar or a Grammy for IR does not bother me at all. Somehow IR is associated with an older generation, past his prime, so the focus is on the current commercially successful personalities. Even otherwise, the west may not take to the music of IR that very well..local rhythms..tunes with southindian, carnatic flavor will not cross boundaries. He is the R K Narayan of music. The english is way different (rhythms) and the characters are way down to earth (singing style). A Nobel committee does not see sophistication in the work.
Even for local awards, being stuck in the film music world, he will only be judged by his commerical success. There is no market or recognition of different genres (and accordingly a forum for evaluating the best in that category) of music locally. So he is caught in a limbo, a classical musician in a POP music space.
IR started his career in film..a POP music format..but enriched it with so much classicism that he himself learnt so much about music in the process. To me IR marks the end of a genre - indian film music - a genre started by great musicians of the past, enriched as recently by MSV, KVM and taken to its zenith by IR. Indian film music is light classical music with traditional drum accompaniement and western classical string arrangements to backup melodies. Directors discussed what would be an appropriate raagam for the situation and then the composers went to work on it. Lyricists and actors knew so much about the raagam and taalam, it was an intellectual exercise that tried to appeal to the common man as well. With tabla and flute, driving the song like the guitar and drums of classical rock, so many great melodies were churned out by our master film music composers. Each varied in their style and level of panache in the melody or use of western classical methods, with IR excelling in the WCM usage in an indian setting. What others mainly considered as elaboration/decoration of a melody, got moved from the vocal section to the orchestra. An 'enna solli pAduvatho' set for the orchestra completely gets overshadowed by a straight melody set to a modern electronic beat. So I think we are not forgetting IR, we are forgetting and losing a genre.
I remember the lines said in Kannathil Muthamittal movie.
"Ivargal Mugam Irundhum Marukkapattavargal".
Suits IR aptly!
Hulkster, I can tell you that your post is not Sour Grapes. Sour Grapes is when fans of Composer A are miffed at Composer B's rise and then when Composer C rises to eclipse Composer B, then rejoice in that and take cheap potshots at B.
Clearly, the clearest proof that IR doesnt care much awards or recognition is when IR fans' desparate attempts to get him to help in simply getting Chicago S.Orchestra to play his music fails. How can an average human not be interested in a simple chance for publicity? The answer is then he is not average. He is beyond that. If actions speak louder than words, then this action clearly speaks louder than anything we fans can say about he doesnt care for awards.
I also think you have over-simplified Rahman. He has his own theories I guess which he doesnt talk about but there is so much he experiments with sound. You cannot claim that sound is not music because that is what IR himself says "nai kuraikkarurudhula music irukku, kuzhandhai azharudhula irukku etc". In that sense, ARR is a cut above the average Indian composer. Both IR and ARR have differentiated themselves from the average Indian film composer because their sound is A-z theirs. Every interlude, every movement is conceived by them.
I do agree with many that this is not the time to worry why ARR got recognition and IR didnt.
Also, I dont think ARR cares for awards either. Clearly, he has said and done enough things for us to infer that he is an exceptional talent who is more interested in taking Indian music beyond shores it has traditionally washed its waves with. I do think he sees an oscar and GG as a recognition for Indian film music than for himself. If he lobbies or explains himself to the suited crowd judging him at oscars, surely I believe it is not pursuit of self-glory but the bigger goal of limelight for the music community he represents
In other words, I see ARR's Oscar as an award for IR, an award for MSV, and his talented predecssors, too but particularly MSV and IR, because these are the two giants that defined popular tamil film music. Given ARR's personality and genuine humility seen on many occasions, I would rather believe he thinks the same.
Also, a century from now these 3 may be seen as the trinity of popular tamil music - when we think of Carnatic music, which was probably POPULAR MUSIC in the 19th century, we dont think of what their fans at that time thought of each other. We simply accept that Deekshitar, Thyagarajar and Sastri were masters all and move ahead. A similar thing might happen with these 3 and we have to be thankful that we lived in the times of all these 3 great musicians. Maybe our grandchildren may envy us for that.
:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Plum
That is positive outlook, Plum :)
This is 1000 % true !! :clap:Quote:
Both IR and ARR have differentiated themselves from the average Indian film composer because their sound is A-z theirs. Every interlude, every movement is conceived by them.
Small thing - need to standardize raaja's name.
Is it Ilaiyaraaja, Ilayaraja, or Illaiyaraaja or Illaiyaraja?
This too can get in the way of something we dream about - global recognition.
Ilaiyaraaja but your coinage "rAsAppu" is not bad either :razz:Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiganes
jai, good point. I sanitised all my mp3 files to Ilaiyaraja. But Ilaiyaraaja works fine as well.
(Reason being I dont like the "Fieldla Irukkara, Illaya" sound of "Illayaraja" :-)
the way IR signs his own name is "Ilaiyaraaja", so I think we should follow that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiganes
Raaja's Official name in English is 'Ilaiyaraaja' :)
as someone mentioned, before IR gets global recognition, he should get some national level recognition first!
look at this:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/jan/...rd-winners.htm
of course this year's new Padma Shri awardeess Akshay Kumar, Udit Narayan, Aishwarya Bachan et al are on any day much more accomplished than IR in their respective professions!
irir3,
ஹிந்தி சினிமா குலுக்கு நடிகை ஹெலனுக்கும் பத்மஸ்ரீ கொடுதிருப்பதைப் பார்க்கும் போது எந்த சுவரில் முட்டிக்கொள்வது என்று புரியவில்லை!!! 1:10 கணக்கில் 10 ஹிந்தி சினிமா க்கு பத்மஸ்ரீ கொடுத்தால், போனால் போகட்டும் என்று ஒரு தென்னிந்திய இல்லை தாத்தா நடிகருக்கோ, இல்லை, இப்போதோ, அப்போதோ என்று இழுதுக்கோண்டிருக்கும் பாட்டி நடிகைக்கோ அழுது கொண்டே கொடுப்பார்கள். நாமும் முட்டாள்களாய், பத்மஸ்ரீ டாக்டர் கலையுலகக் காவலர் என்று பட்டம் விட்டுக்கொண்டு சந்தோஷப்பட வேண்டியது தான். :)
The list easily justifies, why IR doesn't need any award.