IR Compositions: Lyrics and Situation

இந்தத் திரியின் தலைப்பு தான் கொஞ்சம் இடிக்குது..

"பாடல் வரிகளும் சூழ்நிலையும்" என்பதில் சூழ்நிலை என்ற பதம் மட்டுமே ராஜாவுக்கு என்றுமே பெருமை சேர்க்கும் ஒன்று.

கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் ராஜாவின் இசையில் வந்த அருமையான பாடல்களை கணக்கிலெடுத்தால், பெரும்பாலானவை மலிவான தரமற்ற, கற்பனை வறட்சி மிகுந்த பாடல் வரிகளைக் கொண்டவை.

இசையை உச்சத்தில் வைத்து அழகு பார்த்த, பார்க்கும் ராஜா, பாடல் வரிகள் விஷயத்தில் கொஞ்சமும் அக்கறையில்லாமல் தரத்தை படுகுழியில் போட்டு புதைத்த பாடல்களும் நிறைய இருக்கிறது.

குறிஞ்சிப் பூக்கள் போல, மேத்தா, ஆர்.வி.உதயகுமார், முத்துலிங்கம், பழனிபாரதி போன்றவர்களிடம் கன்ஸிஸ்டன்ஸி காணப்பட்டது. ஆனால் தொடர்ந்து இவர்கள் எழுதுவதில்லை.

அன்பர் ஒருவர் இன்னொரு திரியில் ஃபிரேவ் ஹார்ட் படத்தின் இறுதிக்காட்சிகள் ராஜாவின் இசையில் எப்படி அழகாக இருக்கிறது என சிலாகித்திருந்தார். எனக்கும் அதுபோல ஒரு ஆசை உண்டு. அது ராஜாவின் கடந்த இருபது வருட மலிவான பாடல் வரிகளை, வைரமுத்துவின் உதவியால் திருத்தி எழுதினால் எப்படி இருக்கும் என்ற கற்பனைதான். அப்படி ஒன்று நிகழுமானால், நிச்சயம் என்னைப் போன்ற பலரை மீளா இன்பத்தில் ஆழ்த்தும் என்ற நம்பிக்கை இருக்கிறது.

உதாரணத்திற்கு நிறைய சொல்லலாம்.

"அழகி" பட பாடல் ..

பாட்டு சொல்லி பாடச் சொல்லி
குங்குமம் வந்ததம்மா!
கேட்டுக்கொள்ள கிட்ட வந்து
மங்கலம் தந்ததம்மா!

பல்லவியின் இந்த நாலு வரிகள் போதும், ஏன் அந்தப் பாடல் "சிறந்த பாடகி" என்ற விருதை மட்டுமே பெற முடிந்தது என உணர.

venki,

I am sure many will agree with you with regard to lack of quality lyrics in many Raja songs in the recent past. Atleast I am one of them. In another thread I had stated that given a choice of getting a better lyricist or a better sound engineer, Raja should opt for the former. Unfortunately looks like Raja with Vairamuthu is a pipe dream given that people like BR have tried very intensely to make it happen. I too would love to see it happen. (I can definitely see how Vairamuthu's contribution elevated Rahman songs in TFM.)(Other than the song of Azhagi you mentioned, I feel that in Valmiki, 'Kooda Varuiya' is a pathetic start for a pallavi.)

Having said that, just wanted to point put that this thread does not look at the lyrics per se but on how Raja changed his orchestration to suit the lyrics. I had mentioned one example of 'Valaidu Nelindu Sellum Padai'. It will be nice to know more such examples where the music was fine tuned to suit the lyrics, however good or bad the lyrics were.

We cannot totally blame the lyricists as well. Mettuku paatu nu oru soozhnilai varum podhu, avanga kadivaalam potta kudhirai madhiri thaan.

Ofcourse there were some brilliant lyrics written to tunes before, but those are exceptions. Ellarum andha alavuku ezhudha mudiyum nu edhirpaakradhu konjam kashtam thaan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benny Lava

We cannot totally blame the lyricists as well. Mettuku paatu nu oru soozhnilai varum podhu, avanga kadivaalam potta kudhirai madhiri thaan.

Ofcourse there were some brilliant lyrics written to tunes before, but those are exceptions. Ellarum andha alavuku ezhudha mudiyum nu edhirpaakradhu konjam kashtam thaan.

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Well, I believe VM writes for Rahman's tunes. Dont see a problem there. A good lyricist can do it either way much as a good MD can do it either way.

As a rule, one can definitely allege that IR tends to go for the colloquial against the literary. There is a case that can be built that he doesnt care for literary quality of lyrics. But generalising that mettukku paattu will inherently bring down lyrical quality is not tenable.

I do not want to make this into an argument, but this is simply what I feel.

Even when VM (even Kannadasan wrote for mettu) writes for a tune, they bring in their own quality. But my sincere opinion is that, they would write better stuff if allowed to write the verse first.

When he has the right freedom, a poet can write a song with a theme in mind. He can have control over the whole structure of the poem in order to achieve coherence of the verses and influence the reader towards the theme and deliver the impact in final few verses or wherever he feels it is apt.

For e.g, I posted a review of a VM song "Uyirum neeye" in ARR section. The power of the lyrics lie in the verse where he says

"PeNNai padaithaan, maNNai padaitthaan
Katrum, mazhaiyum, oliyum padaitthaan (II)
Boomikku adhanaal nimmadhi illai (II)
Sami thavitthan...
Sami thavitthan thaayai padaitthan "

The other lines nicely build up to this verse. I am not saying it is impossible to conceptualize such a poem with a preset tune, but it is all the more difficult to do it while adhering to a tune. That is why we see that our lyricists have turned towards being innovative within a line rather than across the poem. An e.g for this would be another VM verse that I posted today:

"சொல்லுக்கும் தெரியாமல் சொல்லத்தான் வந்தேனே
சொல்லுக்குள் அர்த்தம் போல சொல்லாமல் நின்றேனே"

Beautiful phrase and the coherence is also there throughout the song. The exchanges between the singer's are enjoyable and do not go out of sync. But as a whole, the poem is just another love poem whereas the former is one notch higher.

It is my belief and assumption that VM wrote the lyrics for the Uyirum neeye song first and the second song was set to tune first before writing the lyrics.

May be Kannadasan did write some exceptional poems while sticking to tunes set by MSV, but not all are Kannadasan. Why, even our ancestors wrote so many great poems while sticking to a tight marabu structure. But for the unimaginative situations in our film songs and for their volume and commercial viability, we cannot expect such a quality. Giving some freedom to Lyricist is perhaps only hope of improving the quality, but how many MD's of today can set tune to lyrics?

mettukku pAttu of course

A cursory reading of VM's lyrics vs. 'poem' collections should make this a no debate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plum

...
As a rule, one can definitely allege that IR tends to go for the colloquial against the literary,.

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I also have similar opinions but to be fair to IR I think he would settle for simple words versus some archaic words. If you'd observe kannadhasan never used literary words..thats the way it should be because movie is for all versus a book or poetry is for the initiated. But only issue is he slowly degenerated from simple to colloquialism.
Another issue is he wants the lyrics in a certain way..sort of back seat drives it..that is why vaali who writes some cools things for Rahman does not do the same for IR. VM wont work with IR. Completely different mindsets. They were mean to each other and so it would be difficult to reconcile. oh well..that is why he is not god..simply human

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

mettukku pAttu of course

A cursory reading of VM's lyrics vs. 'poem' collections should make this a no debate.

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PR, podhuva solreengala illa vairamuthu'ku mattum solreengala?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiru

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plum

...
As a rule, one can definitely allege that IR tends to go for the colloquial against the literary,.

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I also have similar opinions but to be fair to IR I think he would settle for simple words versus some archaic words. If you'd observe kannadhasan never used literary words..thats the way it should be because movie is for all versus a book or poetry is for the initiated. But only issue is he slowly degenerated from simple to colloquialism.
Another issue is he wants the lyrics in a certain way..sort of back seat drives it..that is why vaali who writes some cools things for Rahman does not do the same for IR. VM wont work with IR. Completely different mindsets. They were mean to each other and so it would be difficult to reconcile. oh well..that is why he is not god..simply human

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:thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benny Lava

PR, podhuva solreengala illa vairamuthu'ku mattum solreengala?

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podhuvA...

But perhaps I should clarify some personal prejudices. I am not a fan of much of pudhukkavidhai. The structureless broken verse, clever stinging together of phrases and aphorisms are things I invariably find unimpressive. So to take that as a starting point and to fit the music to them is something I find 'inappropriate' and the end product invariably unimpressive.

Music provides a stucture within which the lyricists can be creative, which is what makes the lines stand out. Pick out the great lyrics in the history of TFM, write them in a piece of paper (one below the other of course !) and read/recite them aloud to see how the 'poetry' magically disappears.

PS: Add an 'invariably' somewhere in the above paragraph.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiru

VM wont work with IR. Completely different mindsets.

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won't in the sense "won't anymore" right ?
Because if you meant "wouldn't have worked" then I don't think it is the case because their partnership gave some great songs.

Ofcourse, othukka vendiyadhu thaan.

Karuthu azhagu, adhuvum marabula karuthu solradhu migavum azhagu.

Aana inga prachanaye... Karuthey illanradhu thaan. I used to be an audience for a while in Kaviyarangam that my dad conducts every month. All the poets reciting there are big fans of marabu, but most of the songs recited there sounded lifeless to me, because they lacked the content. That kinda chased me away from those gatherings. Like one of my dad's friend quipped "nalla alaveduthu thachha chokka madhiri irukku.. kavidhai madhiri illa". So the content is more important than structure to me, of course content with proper structure is of different quality altogether.

And yeah, here the basic grouse is about lack of content... if it comes with a good musical framework, all the more welcome :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benny Lava

For e.g, I posted a review of a VM song "Uyirum neeye" in ARR section. The power of the lyrics lie in the verse where he says

"PeNNai padaithaan, maNNai padaitthaan
Katrum, mazhaiyum, oliyum padaitthaan (II)
Boomikku adhanaal nimmadhi illai (II)
Sami thavitthan...
Sami thavitthan thaayai padaitthan "

The other lines nicely build up to this verse.

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Nice observation. :thumbsup:

Wrote this in some other thread..

Naadhan en jeevanae - Kaadhal Oviyam. One of the best of Raja, SJ and Vairamuthu. Especially Janaki! The bass line is intriguing.

Meeting point of the genius of a lyricist & music director – last line in the first charaNam. ‘விழியாகி விடவா?’. Stunning

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AravindMano

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benny Lava

For e.g, I posted a review of a VM song "Uyirum neeye" in ARR section. The power of the lyrics lie in the verse where he says

"PeNNai padaithaan, maNNai padaitthaan
Katrum, mazhaiyum, oliyum padaitthaan (II)
Boomikku adhanaal nimmadhi illai (II)
Sami thavitthan...
Sami thavitthan thaayai padaitthan "

The other lines nicely build up to this verse.

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Nice observation. :thumbsup:

Wrote this in some other thread..

Naadhan en jeevanae - Kaadhal Oviyam. One of the best of Raja, SJ and Vairamuthu. Especially Janaki! The bass line is intriguing.

Meeting point of the genius of a lyricist & music director – last line in the first charaNam. ‘விழியாகி விடவா?’. Stunning

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Ohh.. I didnt observe it.. the review was by some other person who apparently doesn't even understand Tamil completely (sinhalese)

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...884739#1884739

And yeah, Kadhal Oviyam is certainly one of the best albums. I had Sangeedha jadhi mullai in my mind when the talk of mettuku paatu arose. Brilliant lyrics, and yet written to a tune first.

My 2p worth.

On one hand we have the poet, whose imagination can give us some great poetry. Lot of the poets of earlier era wrote the poems first and the MDs set their tunes. Other than the great poets down south there are lot of lovely poetry in old Hindi songs and in some songs you can clearly make out that the poet wrote first and the tune was set later. (Infact it is said that Khayyam and Sahir Ludhyanvi fell out after 'Kabhi Kabhi' as each felt his contribution was central to the success of the songs. If you hear 'Main Pal Do Pal Ka' song you can clearly make that the poem came first and the mettu later).

The argument against this would be that the poet would write in a meter that most suits him and what he feels suits the situation and thus constrain the musical structure that the MD can provide. To an extent you can observe this is old songs. I mean you will rarely find any old song which flows so tortuously as 'Thanga Changli Minnum Painkili' or 'Vizhiyil Kadai Ezhudum Neramidu'. That is because the poet cannot conceive such a musical structure. There were exceptions of course but by and large this would have been the case.

People like MSV, KVM were masters in setting songs for poetry. SPB infact says that KVM particularly was a master in this regard. Whatever verse was given to him, KVM would set it to tune and not demand any change from the lyricist. Salil Da and Raja are known to be people who insist on the tune first and if they hadn't, we would probably not got the gloriously complicated tunes these two masters were able to produce.

As Plum says, a good poet must be able to write in both the scenarios. The sad truth is that in Tamil, there is no one now who matches the quality of Vairamuthu. Similarly, the MD also has to give quality when asked to set tune to already available lyrics. Raja's tune for Bharathiyar's 'Nirpadhuve' is amazing, given the structure of that poem. Similarly, C Narayana Reddy, the famous Telugu lyricist, in an interview said that for the song, "Vatapatra Sayeeki' (Swathi Muthyam) Raja had composed a tune first but K Vishwanath and C Narayan Reddy wanted Raja to tune the lyrics which were already written by C Narayan Reddy and he came up with that magical tune which was sung superbly, as usual, by Susheela.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benny Lava

PR, podhuva solreengala illa vairamuthu'ku mattum solreengala?

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podhuvA...

But perhaps I should clarify some personal prejudices. I am not a fan of much of pudhukkavidhai. The structureless broken verse, clever stinging together of phrases and aphorisms are things I invariably find unimpressive. So to take that as a starting point and to fit the music to them is something I find 'inappropriate' and the end product invariably unimpressive.

Music provides a stucture within which the lyricists can be creative, which is what makes the lines stand out. Pick out the great lyrics in the history of TFM, write them in a piece of paper (one below the other of course !) and read/recite them aloud to see how the 'poetry' magically disappears.

PS: Add an 'invariably' somewhere in the above paragraph.

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I share the prejudice. I suspect so does IR. Besides, Kiru's point on backseat driving is very valid. I feel the same way, too.

un kuthama, en kuthama, yaara naanum kutham solla - may not be great lyrics, but with that tune, IR's inflections, and the orchestration, I dont think there could have been a better set of aesthetics for that particular moment in the movie...

Also, the oft-quoted MSV-Kannadasan chemistry. PonnenbEn in particular. MSV never tires of quoting it, and when Sridhar was alive, nor was he. Here's to the 'lyricals' in HUB: andha tune-ku vera lines ezhudhunga paapOm...heck, VairamuthuvaiyE ezhudha solli paarkaNum...ennA thErudhunnu.

Since I am biased towards music as an art over poetry, I tend to ignore the banality of lyrics in IR songs - I suspect I am his target audience.

The lyric to some extent reflects the state of the language in the society, IMO. (To quote an earlier tfmpage post, the change from 'nalanthAna' to 'sugam thAna' to 'sowkkiyamA' - none of these had any IR effect BTW)

If someone says IR cannot do decent 'pAttukku mettu', one can only laugh at such ignorance. I'd ask them to listen to 'ninnai charaN adaindhEn'. Period.

It's a question of "what is required for the movie". Do they need a catchy tune that will go well with the orchestration and mesmerize people regardless of the words? Or do they need a very thought provoking poem with no stress on orchestration but just a decent melody? In other words, who is the team lead?

It's obvious that IR wanted to be 'eppavum nAn rAjA' and poets had to service him. We're in a take-it-or-leave-it situation :-)

app - no we are not saying IR cant do mettu for paattu. No way!

We are just saying that in his philosophy, and mine, probably influenced by him, literary quality of lyrics isnt as important as the impact. If his music can make the impact, then the lyrics merely need to be functional. I concur with that view. Not that he has stated that explicitly but I infer that.

While this works most of the time, a "kanavil dhinamum vandhu kaNNadippAL" is jarring.

In the context of "BGM padathukku thevaiya" raised by Prabhu Ram, literary quality of lyrics padathukku thevaiya is an even more relevant question. It doesnt hurt to not have great lyrics but I can quite understand the POV if someone says that enhanced literary quality of lyrics enhances the quality of the movie.
(also, saying that, this gives me better empathy for PR's stand viz-a-viz BGM)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plum

While this works most of the time, a "kanavil dhinamum vandhu kaNNadippAL" is jarring.

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While I totally agree with you that there are a ton of such "jarring" verses in IR songs, do you think the lyrical quality of songs by his contemporaries including MSV of late 70's / 80's (or next gen) is "mostly greater"? I don't think so.

While IR was a "big influence" on the Thamizh society in the way they look at films in general and film music in particular, I think the lyrics were actually influenced by the "Thamizh society" in general (which was in turn influenced by IR to some extent on this aspect).

While MSV had one good 'vidiya vidiya solliththaruvEn' in a movie, didn't he complement that with two horrible 'vAdA en machchigaLA, vengAyA bajjikaLA' & 'pOkkirikkuppOkkiri rAjA'? Why only single out IR? Remember who tuned "my name is billA", which apart from having kuppai lyrics also glorified the name of a brutal child molester / killer?

Musing more on this 'lyric' aspect, I think the degeneration started much before him, when vAli started off in a big way with his "eulogising" MGR (and KaNNadAsan's prolificity took a beating due to his personality clashes / politics and various other factors by the 70's). The more heard movie songs of 70's had no appreciable lyrics or music but political agenda on horn speakers, IMO. Forcing mEttukkudi's to go to lyrics they could not understand / appreciate much (indhi / abba-boneyM).

That way, it won't be wrong to say that IR kind of brought back attention to Thamizh lyrics once again to TN people :-) Except that save a brief association with VM, he possibly couldn't get opportunities to work with extraordinary poets.

a_e,

I would agree with you reg lyrics vis-a-vis society in general. When Vairamuthu was once asked why he did not write philosophical lyrics like Kannadasan did, he ended up asking which hero can carry those sort of lyrics that Sivaji did earlier.

Sureshs65,

That's exactly the point. Many who complain about the lyrical quality of IR songs turn a blind eye to 'veththalayappOttENdee's, 'mukkAbulA's and 'hai rabbA's - selectively quoting a rare 'Ambal-mouvval' & 'vaseegara un nenjinikka' kind to project how MSV kept it high - IR dropped it dead - but ARR / next gen revived it etc.

The fact is most current songs -where IR is no practical factor - have abysmal poetic quality - littered with thanglish and other unintelligible words; one has to dig deep to find gems, if any!

Rajasaranam,
Pichai Paathiram - You got me on this one :notworthy:

பாறையில பூ முளைச்சி பார்த்தவக யாரு!
அன்பு கொண்ட நெஞ்சத்துக்கு ஆயுசு நூறு!

- கொடியிலே மல்லிகப் பூ..

நானும் சேர்ந்து போகவும் சிறகு இல்லையே
உறவும் இல்லையே..
..
அறியாத ஆடு.. வழி மாறியதோ
..
தங்கப்பூவே சந்திப்போமா..
சந்தித்தாலும் சிந்திப்போமா!
..
தரைக்கு வந்த பிறகு
தவிக்கும் இந்த சருகு

-- போகுதே போகுதே

கடலோர கவிதைகள் படத்தை கலைப்படம் என்றும் சொல்லமுடியாது. முழுக்க முழுக்க வியாபார நோக்கில் எடுக்கப்பட்ட படமென்றும் தள்ள முடியாது.

வைரமுத்துவின் வைர வரிகள் ராஜாவின் இசையை கோபுரத்தில் வைத்து அழகு படுத்துகிறது.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by app_engine

Sureshs65,

That's exactly the point. Many who complain about the lyrical quality of IR songs turn a blind eye to 'veththalayappOttENdee's, 'mukkAbulA's and 'hai rabbA's - selectively quoting a rare 'Ambal-mouvval' & 'vaseegara un nenjinikka' kind to project how MSV kept it high - IR dropped it dead - but ARR / next gen revived it etc.

The fact is most current songs -where IR is no practical factor - have abysmal poetic quality - littered with thanglish and other unintelligible words; one has to dig deep to find gems, if any!

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app_engine,

I very much agree that the poor lyrical quality is a case with all MD's, I didn't mean that only IR's songs were the sufferers. That is why, I supposed that it could be due to "mettukku paatu" constraint (purely a speculation) but more blatantly due to the commercial pressure, volume of music output from our industry (I wonder how yesteryears TFI compares with current one in terms of volume of output) and due to lack of variety in situations. Oru thalaivanum thalaiviyum kadhalikradhukku evlo thaan'ya pudhusa paatu ezhudha mudiyum! The "Muqqala"s and "Hai rabba"s you mentioned very much suffer from the same problems as the IR songs we are discussing here.

Since we are discussing lyrics and also about transposing tunes, I can think of two songs which morphed from being a minor song to a major hit due to lyrics. These are two Hindi tunes which were transposed to Tamil by the music director 'Veda'. (Everyone has pointed out that with a small adjustement, Veda can be transposed to Deva :) One song in Hindi was 'sau bAr janam lengE'. Music by Usha Khanna. This was transposed to Tamil as 'Orayiram pArvayilE'. The lyrics in Hindi were very standard ones and the song a minor hit but the lyrics of Kannadasan made this a very well liked song in Tamil. Another such song, which was again transposed from Hindi by Veda was 'tumE pyar karte hain karte rahenge'. I think the music was by Shankar Jaikishan. This was remade in Tamil as 'nAn malarOdu taniyAga yEn ingu nindrEn'. Kannadasan's lyrics for this song are a joy to listen again and again. He wonderfully tells a story of petty jealousy between the lovers. Both these songs are still quite well known in Tamil Nadu and I hold that their popularity here has more to do with the lyrics of Kannadasan more than the tune itself.

While a good discussion on lyrics is on, I will get back to the intent of the thread :)

Yesterday I was watching the 'Ananda rAgam' song from 'Panner Pushpangal'. You can clearly see that everything in the song done by Raja is for the situation and yet it sounds so wonderful to someone who has no inkling of the situation. Starting for the initial violins till the very end, every piece of music is designed to merge with the happenings on screen. The second interlude especially evokes the movement of the train and when finally the kids enter the train, the bass guitar and the drumming simulate the train movement, though hearing it outside of the film's context, you still enjoy the bass and the drumming. Excellent song.

We were discussing about how 'poonkAtru' from Mundram Pirai was replaced by 'Yeh Zindagi' in Hindi and whether it had to do with the complexity of the tune. There is one more instance wherein a complex tune was replaced by a more free flowing one. The complex tune was from the movie, 'Rudra Veena'. The song 'taraLirAdA tanE vasantham'. You can watch it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyzmcWWPlVc This was replaced in 'Unnal Mudiyum Thambi' by a more free flowing 'nanjai unDu punjai unDu'. Maybe Balachander thought the Telugu tune was a bit more classical than required? (The situation is about Chiranjeevi / Kamal singing a 'janaranjakam' song based on a classical raga.)

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

We were discussing about how 'poonkAtru' from Mundram Pirai was replaced by 'Yeh Zindagi' in Hindi and whether it had to do with the complexity of the tune. There is one more instance wherein a complex tune was replaced by a more free flowing one. The complex tune was from the movie, 'Rudra Veena'. The song 'taraLirAdA tanE vasantham'. You can watch it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyzmcWWPlVc This was replaced in 'Unnal Mudiyum Thambi' by a more free flowing 'nanjai unDu punjai unDu'. Maybe Balachander thought the Telugu tune was a bit more classical than required? (The situation is about Chiranjeevi / Kamal singing a 'janaranjakam' song based on a classical raga.)

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I think the key word here is customization rather than de-complexification. Even raNdi raNdi got replaced by enna samayalO, which was more than a tune change; it was a complete situation change for the song. The character of the lower-caste self-made lawyer with his very telugu quirks, and a keen sense of music, couldnt be translated I suppose. Hence, comic relief shifts to Manorama, ThaariNi and Kozhundhanar Kamal and so does the song. In general, UMT seems to be an uninspired effort from KB and Kamal both. KB not capturing the believability of Rudra Veena and Kamal seemingly not very bought-in to the movie. Raja, however, delivered big-time in both versions.

Plum,

Hmmmm. Customization probably better reflects what was attempted. While 'ranDi ranDi' is a clear case of change of scenario, as to what motivated the change to 'nanjai unDu' I am not so sure.

(Surprisingly I have not watched either versions fully to have an opinion on which was better. )

I'll tell you what might have prompted the change from tarali raadha(a personal fav) to Punjai undu.
Post-song scene
Rudra Veena
Gemini: Nuvvu adavilO pAdAve, adh E rAgam telusA
Chiru: telusu naana, hamsadhwani
Gemini: adhi hamsadhwani kaadhura himsadhwani

unnAl mudiyum thambi
Gemini: nee pAdiniye pAttu enna raagam theriuma?
Kamal: theriyumpA, suddha dhanyasi
Gemini: adhu suddha dhanyasi illadA asuddha dhanyasi

himsadhwani is too sanskritised for tamil audience consumption. Now, asuddha is also sanskritised but it is more common among tamil populace. Hence the change. I would pinpoint KB as the source of the change.

I was going to ask if they had changed the raagam and then what happened to the line. :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

Rajasaranam,
Pichai Paathiram - You got me on this one :notworthy:

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:)

Well I too am trying to turn otherway around and we may meet at a point where we have Fantasy situations and realtime situations. Iam pondering over the example of 'Malai kovil' & 'Oru Sudar' quoted by CRV.

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது. அதன் பின் வந்த அனேக படங்களில் ஏப்ப சாப்பையான வரிகளை எழுதி படுத்தி எடுத்தார். 90 களில் ரகுமானிடம் சேர்ந்து வெற்றியை சுவைத்த பின் வெறும் அலங்காரங்களிலும் உவமைகளிலும் சிக்கி கொன்டார்.
இன்று அவர் வெறுமனே ஒரு மோடி மஸ்தான் வேலையை செய்து கொன்டிருக்கிறார். ராஜா அவரிடம் இருந்து விலகி இருப்பது எல்லோருக்கும் நல்லது. வாலிக்கும் வயதாகி விட்டது எனவே ராஜா, தாமரை அல்லது முத்துகுமார் போன்றோரிடம் இனைந்து செயல்படலாம் நல்ல வரிகள் வேண்டும் என்றால்.
மற்றபடி ராஜாவின் இசையை மட்டும் ரசித்து விட்டு செல்வது தான் உத்தமம்.

Plum,

Believe me when I say that I typed the same logic in my reply and then was not so sure about it since I hadn't watched the movie and deleted that line. I can resonate with your argument since that was exactly my line of reasoning as well :)

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது. அதன் பின் வந்த அனேக படங்களில் ஏப்ப சாப்பையான வரிகளை எழுதி படுத்தி எடுத்தார். 90 களில் ரகுமானிடம் சேர்ந்து வெற்றியை சுவைத்த பின் வெறும் அலங்காரங்களிலும் உவமைகளிலும் சிக்கி கொன்டார்.
இன்று அவர் வெறுமனே ஒரு மோடி மஸ்தான் வேலையை செய்து கொன்டிருக்கிறார். ராஜா அவரிடம் இருந்து விலகி இருப்பது எல்லோருக்கும் நல்லது. வாலிக்கும் வயதாகி விட்டது எனவே ராஜா, தாமரை அல்லது முத்துகுமார் போன்றோரிடம் இனைந்து செயல்படலாம் நல்ல வரிகள் வேண்டும் என்றால்.
மற்றபடி ராஜாவின் இசையை மட்டும் ரசித்து விட்டு செல்வது தான் உத்தமம்.

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Uliyin Osai and Vaalmeegi .... music super'aa irukku... lyrics :oops:

atleast vaalmeegi has decent picturisation... but Uliyin Osai :banghead:

PS :- I am zero in music knowledge... but I am able to enjoy each and every songs of Ilayaraaja 8-) I am becoming more IR fan :)

Sureshs65 :clap: :clap: nallaa ezhudhureenga :D

Since we are talking about transposing songs, it is not necessary that the MD transposes his own song but gets inspired by a song of another MD and transposes that song into his/her own language. (When I say inspired I mean inspired in the normal sense of the word, not in the new sense, 'we know our MD copied but we love him too much to agree to it' :)

One song which seems to have impressed more than one music director is 'oh re taal mile nadhi ke jal mein' of Roshan (Mukesh the singer, Movie: Anhokee Raat). K V Mahadevan seems to have been impressed by it and gave 'evarikevaru E lokam lO' from Siri Siri Muvva. I have feeling that Raja was also inspired by this song. The pallavi of 'Arum adhu Azham illa' gives me that feeling though the song get a very typical Raja touch as it progresses. Don't look for an exact match. It is the overall tune, mood etc which makes me think so. I am quite confident about KVM's inspiration. Even the lyrics point to it. I am not 100% certain about the Raja tune. To be fair, both KVM and Raja's version showcase their respective individuality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

Plum,

Believe me when I say that I typed the same logic in my reply and then was not so sure about it since I hadn't watched the movie and deleted that line. I can resonate with your argument since that was exactly my line of reasoning as well :)

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sure, it is pretty straight forward logic illainA enakku thONi irukkAdhu :-)

Be that as it may, tarali rAdhA with mridangam for rhythm to close out lines (a la Mayile Mayile un thogai engE, another hamsadhwani - is it just coincidental or it is part of patterns in Raja's mind? One more for Rajasaranam's case study) stands out as a melody. Lyrics are sonorous, sit on the tune beautifully, and are meaningful, too. Pulamaipithan(?)'s punjai uNdu is in-your-face with its socialism message - and lamenting in tone - while tarali rAdhA is more positive and optimistic in its tone while giving the same message- perhaps another subtle way in which Rudra Veena turned out to be a more integrated effort than UMT.