Which is the last Bollywood film you saw ?

Okay let's back up a minute

Top of the rung films. Hindi kicks Tamil's behind in all writing and acting. Do we have anyone who disagrees ? I made a point about there being no comparison even in acting. I thought that would be contentious, I see it has been taken as fine.

Average Hindi - admitted, adhu nEkku theriyAdhu. But actually I don't see the 'average' Tamil fare either. Kungamappoovum konjupuRaavum or Kandhasamy. Watch clips and TV and theatre pakkamA paarthu kai eduthu kumbudu.

Simply put, the question I used to ask myself whenever I see a Hindi film is "when are we going to see a Tamil film which is as good". I have begun to accept it as a different animal.

Ok, next bittu...What's your Rashee promos look interesting. Bawejanai ninaichu dhaan light-A udharal edukkudhu but the 12 Priyankas look interesting.

Naama SinegA vachchu try paNNalaam. She has the atvandage of usually having no clue what kind of movie she is doing.

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Originally Posted by Plum

:lol: - Johnny Gaddar vs Paruthiveeran. Dev D vs Chennai Kaadhal - looks like mottai thalai muzhangAl comparisons are the order of the day.

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Why ?

I though PV is indeed one of the rare critical + commercial successes in Tamil in the few years. Anyway, we got the 'bests' comparison settled and closed.

Johnny Gaddaar was a critically semi-acclaimed and flop in Hindi. The average Janardhan here gives a "WTF" reaction to that movie.

Whats happening is one DEV D is a big hit, and then the history is being rewritten as "all such critically acclaimed movies are succeeding in Hindi" (e.g) the claim on Johnny Gaddaar here.

The way I see it is, the fact that these movies can be made is not a function of the maturity of the bollywood audience(which is not where you. PR, come from but...) but the dynamics of the market. Such a movie, if made in tamil, is expected or believed to be a sureshot to fail, and nobody is willing to take the risk. In Hindi, the average 'different' movie fails, and fails badly but the mechanics for making it and releasing it exists. This is not something to throw as a "superiority card".
In Malayalam two decades back, such movies were made and the average such movie was extremely succesful - now that is an audience which can claim "higher taste"(ofcourse subjective!)

One could say that the audience for bollywood(even the so called superior multiplex audience) is mature when an average movie of this sort is succesful, which is not teh case now. Dasvidaniya? Oh my God? MITHYA? All utter flops. Even Johnny Gaddar was a failure.

So, where does this sense of "we dig bollywood, so we are superior, or simply bollywood is superior" come from?

While we can pan the tamil movie makers for fat pot and horse riding, the fact is the average hindi movie maker would be the same except for the coincidence of a favourable market. Kashyapa munivar will nowhere be near mainstream but for some lucky market conditions.
Here's a link to ponder

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People saw what happened with Bheja Fry and thought that even they could do it get a reasonably decent small foreign film and remake it, small. Even though it was an exception, it did open the floodgates to three or four small budget films every week, most of which failed (sadly, taking Rahul Bose and Vinay Pathak with it). Maan Gaye Mughal-E-Azam , Dasvidaniya , Dil Kabaddi, Oh My God, Straight, Aloo Chat, Delhi Heights, Life Mein Kabhi Kabhi, De Taali (and almost everything Aftab Shivdasani and Dino Morea have been in over the last few years... the list is endless). The margin of success with the small film is even smaller than someones margin of success in becoming SRK. But they see Bheja Fry and think Rs 1-crore films can make Rs 15 crore. In reality, most struggle to recover their money as one has to spend double the amount marketing a small film, explained a trade analyst.

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You see that? How many average-to-bad "small" films for that one acclaimed "small" , "well-written" movie?

100's of mass movies release - only a few of them succeed - yet we make mass movies in multtitudes. Why? Because every such movie has an equal percentage of probability of success.

In Hindi, this equation is true for such "small" films. What happens with mass movies here(100 released, 2 super hit) happens with "small" movies there(100 released, 2-3 good or hit). How do you blame the artists and technicians associated with tamil movies for that?

Incredible it may sound but even 2-3 years back, Kashyapa munivar was a small fry facing a bleak future. If there is one movie which has changed equations, it must be Dev D, because that is a movie which, thanks to intentional fallacy, caught the attention of the average janardhan here. As I quoted before, it was a hit because of the audience a la the one that is shown in Sun TV Thirai Vimarsanam ("Super", "abhay deol chance-E illanga", "Music class-nga", "kya ultimate love ishtory hai", "Mahi gill kya mast hai yaar", "Abhay deol is cho chweet-no") which doesnt even know what is great about the movie

"Sinthanai Sei" is an unofficial remake of Johnny Gaddar. Just for inbarmEsan :)

Agree with PR that the best of Bolly > the best of kolly. And IMO Kadhal is as good as anything I I've seen in bolly this decade :twisted: And IIRC there is no v-o in the end. Just some scrolling text. Agree that the film is far from being subtle but that's the whole point 8-)

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Agree with PR that the best of Bolly > the best of kolly

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Yeah, adhaan concede paNNittOmE.

It's just a season in the cycle. Innum konja varushathula Amit T is greater than Rahman-nu bollywood-la koova aarambippainga appo Maddy-ai namma pakkam kondu vandhiralaam :-)

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Originally Posted by Plum

Whats happening is one DEV D is a big hit, and then the history is being rewritten as "all such critically acclaimed movies are succeeding in Hindi" (e.g) the claim on Johnny Gaddaar here.

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Okay, I will stop pretending that I am really concerned about the commercial success of films.. Hindi or Tamil.

I'll dorect it back to hypothetical plane before this becomes to embroiled in market mechanics.

All I am saying is I don't feel inclined to agree with your 'if only we had the market/resources/opportunities' our guys would have blown the socks off Hindiwallahs'.

If I could make this sound funny I would make a joke alleging yours is 'wishful thinking'. But since the tone of the debate(!) has become sober I will refrain from presuming I can do mind-reading.

PS: RickyNNE ungai kaalai konjam kaaminga.

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Originally Posted by Nerd

And IIRC there is no v-o in the end. Just some scrolling text.

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"indha manidha theivathai" appidingra maadhiri oru kural kEttadhA nyAbagam.

No voiceovers I think.

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Originally Posted by littlemaster1982

No voiceovers I think.

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neenga sonnA sariyA thaan irukkum

aana prachanai ellAm oNNu dhaan

PR, I think I outlined my stance clearly. Practice makes perfect.
The volumes of "small" movies in bollywood gives the chance for kashyapa munivars to hone skills and strike big.
Whereas a myshkin struggles to release nandhalala, which is probably not half as radically different as kashyapar's movies.

Don't you see the dynamics?

We may or may not blow off the socks off hindi guys. But they get 100 net sessions while we get none. No wonder they perform well in big matches. For that to happen here, first have net sessions(where is utv spotboy here). Then there will atleast be a chance.

System sir system

The same way hindi spluttered through 80's and 90's.and suddenly with money to burn, turned it around. Who would have thought then?
(Atleast, unlike rangan b, you don't say that bolly has always been superior, even during 80's and 90's! - that's a relief)

who is arguing abt the knowledge of a average indhi movie fan here?? i care a heck for some indhiwaalas who think aamir khan is the music composer of rangeela :lol: .........we are talking merely about quality of the films.......as compli rightly put, the vision that bollywood holds is good.........look at the number of above average movies made there - i can watch a "good movie" a month for the entire year......bolly is superior in good-to-great movies segment and when we tread down to average movies too - a chak de though lesser than ch-28 is far better conceptualised than a vamanan or nadodigal (:lol2:) ........even in lower segment, i was very happy with contradictions in characterisations in a "attu" movie like Race....on the whole their industry is moving in the right direction, which i;m really not worried abt but what makes me support bollywood is the "good movie" i get a month......idhu thappa?

reg accusations on me blindly supporting DevD -- umpteen times i had explained why i consider DevD as a great work.....even when LM asked us again - "whats so great" i took pains to explain the whole idea again........i risked the wrath of pundits ( :P ) and supported the "dull" second half too........still if im branded as a average janardhanan who goes by reviews - then its a juicy outswinging half-volley to take my edge to slips :lol2: ......well left da Maddy :P ......i could throw a similar half volley on nan kadavul, seri, let me choose louuu atleast once as per thalaivar's advice :D

reg amit-rahman equations - i would be the happiest person if Amit gets bigger than Rahman in bollywood.....yaaruda avan, eppadi paathalum namma payyan (rahman fan) :thumbsup: ......

now hiding behind music system and computer system :lol2: .......show me a Anurag Kashyap in tamil and i withdraw :evil:

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Originally Posted by MADDY

now hiding behind music system and computer system :lol2: .......show me a Anurag Kashyap in tamil and i withdraw :evil:

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andha paya medhuvA thaen varuvaaen medhuvA thaen varuvaen

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Originally Posted by Plum

System sir system

The same way hindi spluttered through 80's and 90's.and suddenly with money to burn, turned it around. Who would have thought then?

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Hmm...optimism is a gift. :-)

Only Kamal here and he does not write "his" movies. paarppOm

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by Plum

System sir system

The same way hindi spluttered through 80's and 90's.and suddenly with money to burn, turned it around. Who would have thought then?

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Hmm...optimism is a gift. :-)

Only Kamal here and he does not write "his" movies. paarppOm

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ONLY writing dhaan movie'yaa ?

Sarna, to answer very bluntly.....yes.

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Originally Posted by P_R

Sarna, to answer very bluntly.....yes.

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:lol:

sari free'yaa vidunga :)

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Originally Posted by P_R

Only Kamal here and he does not write "his" movies. paarppOm

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:exactly: TN, containing a homogenous audience, is a easier hunting ground for a creator to hone his skills - but where is that "creator" who is ready to slog his a** like Anurag did in 90s......imagine his ignominy of writing dialogues for dubbed shankar movie Nayak - his blog resonates a sad voice always.....

kollywood has a serious dearth of talent.......accept it and work on it why deny it......only hope -- > if kamal and his screenwriting team of 20 or 25 jump into the scene big time - things can easily change :bow: .......

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Originally Posted by MADDY

where is that "creator"

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assistant directors 40 pErukku maximum number of hollywood DVD's vaangi kuduththuttu... nallaa paaththu padam edukka kaththukkOngapaanu advice pannittum varalaam :) 40 pErula neenga solra maadhiri oru creator kedakka maattaaraa enna :P

one more ulta from bollywood

Dil Bole Hadippa :P

Namma compliye irukkaru - inge oru utv spotboy iruindha avaru ipdi script-a vechukittu be be-nu muzhichikittu nippaarA?
Idhje hindila ezhudhina epdiyum finance kedaikkumm. Padam nalla edukkararo illayo, he will get experience like kashyapar did. Illaingareengala?
I am saying it is impossible that god creates talent only in north india for 2007-2014 :-)
Ingeyum irukkum - spotboy illaiye inga. Dil kabaddi eduthu relese panna mudiyuma inga? Apram epdi sar talent mela varum?

I find it funny that we can't accept tht the system is conducive for tqalent there and here it isn't.

I don't know how else to explain this - for every 100 films attempting to be different, 2_3 therudhu hindila. If we have producers who can afford to make 98 nistakes where a film attempts to do good writing and fails or only partially succeeds ingeyum dhaaralama nalla padam varum. Let utv spotboy et al go bankrupt appo paarkalaam hindila enna kizhikkaraangannu :-)

Maddy avg janardhan is a reference to some amit123@yahoo.coms here not you :-)
(Yeah, pr, point out that krish ashok coined amit123 :-) )

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Originally Posted by Plum

Namma compliye irukkaru - inge oru utv spotboy iruindha avaru ipdi script-a vechukittu be be-nu muzhichikittu nippaarA?
Idhje hindila ezhudhina epdiyum finance kedaikkumm. Padam nalla edukkararo illayo, he will get experience like kashyapar did. Illaingareengala?
I am saying it is impossible that god creates talent only in north india for 2007-2014 :-)
Ingeyum irukkum - spotboy illaiye inga. Dil kabaddi eduthu relese panna mudiyuma inga? Apram epdi sar talent mela varum?

I find it funny that we can't accept tht the system is conducive for tqalent there and here it isn't.

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system is not conducive for growing talents-nnu solrel......but kedachha chance-a ellam vechhi paatha - dearth of talent-nnu dhaan-nnu thonudhu.......i agree that a kashyapan could be roaming somewhere in kodambakkam without a chance but we can argue only with what we have........

even if system is bad, then also TFI has to be blamed and not just attribute "bigger" indhi markets to "good system" in hindi.......bigger markets always dont ensure better system...also, we cant keep giving reasons for bad movies in tamil and be happy with whatever we have.......btw, i saw ronnie screwwala(enna lastname :bow:) attending a couple of functions in tamil and one of them with our sivakumar's son.......enna aachu??

Maddy, still not getting my point. Where is the opp for a compli to make a mistake and learn. Is screwala willing to sponsor compli? As he does a random amit123 in hindi? No. And there are no aanikkaarans in tamil either. If compli wants to make a movie where is the support. In hindi, I argue compli with no experience can sell a script. Red the chacko article I referred to earlier - corporates with no idea wanting to make a small artsy movie and selectinf random scripts because they have no idea. Andha maadhiri ilichavaayan inge enga? System is clearly supporting the talent there. If you only look at the result without looking at the process, how do you understand the dynamics?

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Originally Posted by Plum

And there are no aanikkaarans in tamil either.

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and whose fault is that.......SUNTV =1lakh screwalas.......enna vazham illai indha thirunaattil.... :P

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System is clearly supporting the talent there. If you only look at the result without looking at the process, how do you understand the dynamics?

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i cant go too much into the process because i dont know exactly how it works inside.......but u wud laugh if i say that goondas and mafia controlled kannada film industry in 70's and hence they never took off.......but thats a fact and another fact is that they had less talent.....they didnt have a mahendran or bahrathiraja to take off in 80s - simple......

do u agree that Ameer, vetrimaran, Selvaraghavan, samudrakani etc got their chances??? sorry, they dont qualify as much as a abbas tyrewala or a sriram ragahavan - thats the whole point from me.....even director Shankar is giving lot of chances to newcomers and youngsters but they are good not great......

and also sir, its not that anuraagar jumped out of his plush 7-bedroom gorakhpur flat into UTV spotboy office and started belting class movies.........his life was full of struggles and DevD is his first success -- atleast thats what his interviews and blogs suggest....

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Originally Posted by Plum

Where is the opp for a compli to make a mistake and learn. Is screwala willing to sponsor compli? As he does a random amit123 in hindi? No. And there are no aanikkaarans in tamil either. If compli wants to make a movie where is the support. In hindi, I argue compli with no experience can sell a script.

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*points finger at self and talks in loop*
Be careful... nAn ennach chonnEn

Kannada in 70's and 80's were trailblazers. When our greaÞ white hope was making sakala kala vallavans, shankar nag made sensible mainstream movies there. I am not sure you know kannada cinema of that time well enough. It was also the period of puttanna kanagal in kannada vs ksg in tamil(70's); girish karnad vs ??? In tamil. Girish kasaravalli's hey days. Sorry, saar, that defense doesn't wash.

Anyway that's a digression. My point is simple. Was it edison who talked about 999 failed ezperiments leading to the 1000tgh attempt being succesdul?

Let's say shankar"s ezperiments are those failed experiments - though I think shankr's sensibilities might be a contributory factor to the choices his prod house makes - and we need more such failed experiments to reach dev d levels. That hindi chronologically precedes us in this is merely an accident of time. Just like hollywood movie watching kashyapars and bharadwaj learnt the type of movies that appeal to your class of film goers, maybe it will filter down here. It is not as if kashyap and bhardwaj invented techniqurs themselves - they learnt watching foreign movies. So just wait for smae thing to happen here.

And I repeat we need utv spotboy here - I wish the scripts submitted to kamal in the workshop get made, irrespective of excellence levels. That sort of outlet for the mediocre 'art' movie will eventually pave the way for excellent. That is how a dev d happened - 100 crap 'different' hindi movies and then dev d. Kashyap didn't jump in from heaven. Luckily for him, the market opened up at the right time. Two more years of frustration, and he would have packed the bags. He admitted as much. Clearly, the corporate cash has a lot to do with the quality of hindi movies than you give credit for.I wish utv spotboys nd the like go bankrupt - I want to see how long these guys will last then.

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Originally Posted by Plum

Kannada in 70's and 80's were trailblazers. When our greaÞ white hope was making sakala kala vallavans, shankar nag made sensible mainstream movies there. I am not sure you know kannada cinema of that time well enough. It was also the period of puttanna kanagal in kannada vs ksg in tamil(70's); girish karnad vs ??? In tamil. Girish kasaravalli's hey days. Sorry, saar, that defense doesn't wash.

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Glad to know atleast someone like u knew something good about Kannada film industry :) I have seen few movies of those legends (thanks to Chandana and other kannada TV channels )

Mentioned period by u were the porkaalam of kannada cine industry :)

// end dig

Yes sarna surely the golden age of kannada cinema and here we have maddy rubbishing that very period.:-). Enna solla mudiyum. Sake hands

Jab We Met - quite good. But Kareena Kapoor was mighty annoying as bubbly girl :sigh2: Shahid :thumbsup:

Plum, you may find this interesting

http://passionforcinema.com/laxmikan...an-film-maker/

LM what's the siggy? :oops:

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Originally Posted by Nerd

LM what's the siggy? :oops:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIn4Nldtf1Q

Interesting article, pr.
However, the author seems to have gone overboard. Kashyap's response was priceless :-)
Nevertheless, the point is valid, something I haven't been able to articulate despite pages of output here - namely, that Kashyap isn't half as contemporarily path breaking or relveant in world cinema as a Ray or even Kasaravalli.

The way bollywood hypes him amd his like now as never-before-in--ndian-cinema, one would think that benegal, nihalani et al never happened in india. And I think that takes my mickey more than the comparisons with tamil. And to think that they were original, and didn't bring 10-15 years old hollywood screenplay techniques :-)

Black friday was Scorsese DevD was not.....i hope it wasnt Anurag who told "next spielberg" :lol: .......have to watch Anurag;s reply in video cause i cant believe that a man who took to writing inspired by Bicycle theieves wants to be a hollywood dummy.......anyways, this is treading into "art for art" lines which is way above my head......

Read the comments...apparently the guy who wrote the article didn't catch what they were saying.

All that apart, I think it is very very fair to have Hollywood ambitions. I deinitely like American movies better than most others.

edukkalaam metaphoraiyum, imagery-aiyum nambi, surrealistic musics edhunAchum paNNalaam. thappillai. But to spite them for -allegedly - not having such ambitions is nonsense. And what's with Hollywood bashing anyway ??

And by the way on Dev D. IMO it was very good but all-time-great ellAm remba over. I found the second half largely show. If I were to be a movie - apart from maqbool- that I thoroughly enjoyed, it is Hazaron kwaishein Aisi. Not Dev D. But then, I just have different expectations out film.

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Originally Posted by Plum

one would think that benegal, nihalani et al never happened in india. And I think that takes my mickey more than the comparisons with tamil.

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I suspected this. :lol2:

Wait till some kid born this year writes a great movie and people say he is the greatest tamil screenwriter. annikku irukku "kadai adaippu" :lol2: