young hubbers, in case you were wondering, these are some of the Raja fans or HCIRFs (as they used to call themselves) who were also Rahman bashers. There were several others but these are the names I remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by thozhar
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young hubbers, in case you were wondering, these are some of the Raja fans or HCIRFs (as they used to call themselves) who were also Rahman bashers. There were several others but these are the names I remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by thozhar
இப்போதான் என் கருத்துக்கு அந்த கே.ஆரின் பதிலை படித்தேன் அஜய். அமெரிக்காவில் மார்க்கெட்டிங் வீ.பி ஆக இருப்பதால் இரஹ்மான் ஒரு போலி என்பதை இவர் ஆராய்ந்து கண்டுபிடித்துவிட்டாராம். இவருக்கு இரஹ்மான் இசை பிடிக்கவில்லை என்பதெல்லாம் ஒரு பிரச்சனையே அல்ல. ஆனால் இந்த ஞானி சொல்கிறார், இரஹ்மான் இரசிகர்கள் சிந்திக்கும் திறன் அற்றவர்கள் என்று. இரஹ்மான் இசை நாற்றம் என்றும் திருவாய் மலர்ந்தருளியிருக்கிறார். இதில் எனக்கு ஒரு வேலை வேறு கொடுத்திருக்கிறார். அதாவது இரஹ்மான் இராஜா பற்றி பேசுவதை நிறுத்த சொல்ல வேண்டுமாம். இல்லையென்றால்... என்று வேறு மிரட்டியிருக்கிறார் (என்னா வில்லத்தனம்). அவர் நிறுத்தவில்லை என்றால் இவர் என்ன செய்து விடுவார் என்று தெரியவில்லை. ஆனால் சண்டை வளர்வதால், மற்ற இராஜா இரசிகர்களை கருத்தில் கொண்டு அது அவர்கள் பக்கம் என்பதால் இனி அங்கு செல்லப்போவதில்லை.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaybaskar
இங்கே பதிவிடும் கிரிம்சன் கிங்கும் அந்த கருத்தை ஆனந்தமாக இரசித்ததோடு ஒரு பதிவிட்டிருக்கிறார் அதாவது இரஹ்மான் ஒரு போலிதான் என்று சாட்சியளித்திருக்கிறார். சி.என்.என் நேர்காணலில் ஒருமுறை இரஹ்மானிடம் தனது வாத்தியத்தை பற்றி ஏதோ கேட்டதற்கு அவருக்கு உடனே தெரியவில்லையாம். ஒரு முறை பார்த்து விட்டு பதில் கூறினாராம். அந்த மனிதர் அடிக்கடி நாடு நாடாக பறந்து கொண்டிருப்பவர். ஜெட் லாக் இருக்கும். உடனே பெயர் ஞாபகம் வராமல் இருந்திருக்கலாம். இதெல்லாம் ஒரு பெரிய விஷயமா. இதில் இராஜா எப்போதுமே தெளிவாக பேசுவார் என்று கருத்து வேறு. இரஹ்மான் அகாடெமி விருது பெற்றவுடன் நடந்த பாராட்டு விழாவில் இவர் உளறிக்கொட்டியது ஊருக்கே தெரியும்.
:-d "சின்னதாயவள் தந்த இராசாவே...முள்ளில் தோன்றிய சின்ன ரோசாவே"வை மறக்க வேண்டாம். இராஜாவின் தாய் பெயர் சின்னதாயி என்பது நினைவிருக்கலாம்.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaybaskar
உண்மை என்னவென்றால் இராஜாவின் கூஜாக்கள் செய்த, செய்கிற தவறுகளுக்கு இராஜாவை குறை கூற விரும்பவில்லை. இரஹ்மானும் இராஜாவை தனது குடும்பத்தில் ஒருவராகவே கருதுகிறார்.
பிரச்சனையே இந்த கூஜாக்கள்தான். இரசிகர் என்கிற பெயரில் இவர்கள் போடும் ஆட்டம் தாங்க முடியவில்லை. இதில் இந்த கிரிம்சன் கிங், கே ஆர் போன்றோர், என்னவோ எல்லா இரஹ்மான் இரசிகர்களும் அவரின் (போலி) பணிவிற்காக அவரை இரசிப்பதாக உளறிக்கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள். நாம் என்ன கிறுக்கர்களா? இரஹ்மான் திமிர் பிடித்தவராகவே இருந்தாலும் நம*க்கு என்ன வந்தது. நாம் என்ன அவரோடு ஒட்டி உறவாடிக் கொண்டா இருக்கிறோம். அவர் இசை நம்மை கவர்ந்திருக்கிறதா இல்லையா என்பது தான் நம*க்கு முக்கியம்.
மற்றவர்களின் இசை இரசனையை கேவலப்படுத்துபவர்கள் யாராக இருந்தாலும் அவர்கள் அறிவிலிகளே. பெரிய கல்வி ஸ்தாபனத்தில் எம்.பி.ஏ படித்து ஒரு பெரிய நிறுவனத்தில் துணை தலைவர் பதவியில் இருந்தாலும் சரி. தெருவில் சுற்றிக் கொண்டிருந்தாலும் சரி. உயர்ந்த பதவி வகிப்பவரின் இரசனை கடை நிலை ஊழியரின் இரசனையை விட உயர்ந்ததா? பணக்காரனின் இரசனை ஏழையினுடையதை விட உயர்ந்ததா? படித்தவனின் இரசனை படிக்காத பாமரனுடையதை விட உயர்ந்ததா? இசையில் என்னய்யா இந்த வேறுபாடு?
இதில் வருத்தத்திற்குரிய விஷயம் என்னவென்றால் இசை நம்மிடையே அன்பையும் ஒற்றுமையையும் வளர்ப்பதற்கு உதவும் ஒரு கருவி என்றில்லாமல் நாம் ஒருவரை ஒருவர் வெறுக்க பயன்பட ஆரம்பித்திருக்கிறது என்பதே. யார் இசை அமைத்தால் என்ன? எல்லோரிடமும் இருந்து வெளிப்படும் இசையை உருவாக்கியது இறைவனே. இந்த உண்மை தெரிந்தால் யாரையும் நாம் வெறுக்க மாட்டோம்.
இந்த வெறுப்பை உமிழ்பவர்கள் பெரும்பாலும் ஒருவரின் ரசிகர்களாக இருப்பதே இதில் ஆச்சரியம். இசை மனதிற்கு அமைதியை தருவதற்கு பதில் வெறுப்பை வளர்க்குமேயானால் அது உண்மையிலேயே இசைதானா?
ரஹ்மானின் 'பணிவு இமேஜ்' ரஹ்மான் ரசிகர்களை கவர்ந்ததை விட 'அவர்' ரசிகர்களை வெறுப்பேற்றியிருப்பது கண்கூடாகத் தெரிகிறது. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thozhar
I do not know and do not care about the 90s or 00s TFM page discussion background and I would rather ajay himself explain his statement rather than you jumping in to defend him. I responded to it on face value, whether an album is available in stores or Itunes has nought to do with how good it is. If there were people who praised an album without listening to it, that is ridiculous, goes without saying. All I am saying that need not necessarily be the case just because it's not available on Itunes, that's just jumping the gun.
As for the rest of the discussion, again, please speak for yourself. I have seen a number of ARR fans cite his awards or which TIME article featured which songs of his to argue that he is better than IR, rather than talk about his music. I completely agree with you that everybody has their own tastes and imposing arrogance on others based on likes or dislikes in music is ridiculous but I have seen this attitude from many ARR fans and not necessarily online but in face to face interactions. So, yes, I do think a lot of them are image conscious and anxious that ARR conforms to a certain image. I also feel that these days he is making an effort to conform to that image. These are my views based on MY interactions with ARR fans and Rahman's interviews. I was very fond of his music in the 90s but have lost interest in his recent work. I find it very disappointing and his tendency to say what people want to hear, to not even correct ignorant people when they attribute the very introduction of Western music elements in film music to him, much more disappointing.
So you can call my statements biased if you like and since we are not likely to find a common ground there, we'll have to agree to disagree. But I do not remember having ever called Rahman overrated so again please don't jump the gun. I had asked this question once to the older generations HCIRFs, "Would you rather IR had been upstaged commercially by Deva or Sirpi instead of ARR? Let ARR-coterie attempt to discredit IR, it is not going to change my opinion of either composer. " But maybe I shouldn't if all you guys want to do is paint all IR fans with the same colours. I mean, how does it matter, if you are not even going to read what I have said and have already made up your mind. But I do believe that of late, there is a desire of some people, either ARR fans in influential positions or people who fell out with IR, to discredit his contribution to music just because they don't like him. One ARR fan even claimed on baradwaj rangan's blog that IR was arrogant to compose fusion in a style not attempted by other fusion masters. Er, that's called genius. You can interpret such desperate attempts to discredit him the way you like, I interpret it as insecurity, period.
Well, hello, you are the one who is trying to paint all Rahman fans with the same colours. You seem to think that all Rahman fans are image conscious because the few you have met are. The ones I have met simply love his work. Please ask yourself, how would you feel if someone says that you love Raja only because he is very pious and not because of his music? I take it as an insult. We all know what we want. Rahman's humility (or the lack of it) does not help (or hurt) us in any way. It is his music that gives me joy. It may be 'garbage' to some. Raja's music may be 'garbage' to some too. But, you don't go around telling someone what they are hearing is garbage. It is no different than saying that they are eating garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by crimson king
Most of the Rahman fans I know have immense respect for Raja and his work. I, personally, think that without Raja, Tamil film industry would have shut down in the 80s. There will always be some Rahman fan who attempts to discredit Raja and the other way too. But, we are not talking about that. I was only trying to explain Rahman's recent statement. He said musical taste has changed since the 80s. What is wrong with that? Why pour vitriol at him for a factually correct statement? Where in the interview did Rahman claim that Raja is irrelevant now? Raja has been composing for more movies than Rahman every year till date. Do you think Rahman does not know that?
You didn't call Rahman over-rated, KR did. Your reply to his post seemed to suggest you condone it.
Re: me jumping in to defend Ajay, hey, all Rahman fans are the same, aren't we? We all think alike, do things alike, perhaps, we even look alike:-) no, I wasn't trying to defend ajay - he needs no defending - I read his post and your reply and thought it was obvious what he was trying to say. Thought I will give a history of TFMpage to put things in perspective. If you don't care about it, that's fine, please feel free to ignore.
I have said MANY ARR fans, I have not used the word ALL anywhere. I also asked you in that thread to speak for yourself, clearly acknowledging your position is different. Yes, I have met many ARR fans - in absolute terms - over the years with that point of view so I am justified in that comment. Why don't you acknowledge that there may be some with that attitude instead of jumping to defend all of them? You do not know what you ALL want, you only know what you yourself personally want in ARR's music. Restrict your brief to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by thozhar
I did not condone kr's statement, I only built on another point he made about ARR's brand management. Unlike kr, I credit ARR's musical talent but I do consider his brand management the difference between the extent of international recognition he got vis a vis IR, rather than his musical superiority which many ARR fans again are quire fond of claiming. You must show the courtesy to clarify what my stand exactly is before jumping the gun. Just lumping me with HCIRFs against whom I have held my ground in defending ARR is something I find INSULTING to me.
Re ARR's recent statement, I have also said in that thread that ARR is very much entitled to his views on current musical tastes. Did you even bother to read that? I only objected to the part where he said en paatai kekadha endha gramamum kadaiyadhu. That is too generalised and lofty a statement which he is picking from the air, there's no way he's actually personally been to very village in TN to ascertain that. I frankly don't care even if ARR outright said he doesn't like IR, nobody is obliged to like anybody.
ok, I retract my earlier statement if you didn't condone kr's statement. I didn't read your post about ARR's statement on changing musical tastes. I may have missed it but it was not intentional. Re: the other part which appears too generalized, of course, he has not been to every village. Faced with a stupid question, Rahman may have exaggerated a bit but his point was that his music has been well received in all quarters. For all we know, Rahman may not have even made that statement exactly like that. Also, if we start nitpicking every single word and sentence that celebrities make, then we are bound to find something silly. Let's not do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by crimson king
"You do not know what you ALL want, you only know what you yourself personally want in ARR's music."
Of course, but I find it ridiculous that someone would admire a composer for his traits rather than his music. I am not denying that you know some but I am talking based on my experiences with Rahman fans, both in person and in this forum.
Well, there are lot of people who admire artists for traits that have nothing to do with their music. It's nothing new. You or I may not believe in that but there are certainly lots who do. They are the people who make trends happen, make stars out of one or the other artist.
And I would not want to nitpick ARR's statements left to myself. But (a) the question was asked in that thread and (b) IR is subjected to it all the time. It may sound a spiteful thing to say but I wouldn't mind some of those ARR fans who derive pleasure in dragging down an artist of his stature to get a taste of their medicine. Maybe that will get at least some of them to back off and shut up. When a video where IR praised Viji Manuel as the best pianist he knows in the country (and in an 80s program mind) was uploaded, some ARR fans jumped to blast him for hating ARR. That is just ridiculous. And maybe, just maybe, Viji was a better keyboardist than ARR, even if ARR may be a great composer? There is a point where one suspects people just want an excuse to pull down IR permanently so that they don't have to acknowledge his achievements and can pretend only ARR was great.
Why should ARR go to each and every village to find if those people listen his songs? The sales of his albums in those regions is a better indicator than the mindless claim of some morons, right?