THIRUKKURALH

Ashraf,
I dont exactly understand your goals.
1. Are we discussing about the religion of thiruvalluvar or thirukkural?
2. Are you trying to find references to various religious principles in thirukkural? (this shall include all religions)
if not,
3. Are you trying to prove that thirukkural reflects only one religion? ( what it is, is not important here.)
4. Is this only about thirukkural or all works of thiruvalluvar?

It would be helpful for me to debate, if you can answer these.
If you are just doing the second, then I assume this is not a debate.

Dear Puyal,

I think the following paragraph reproduced from my article will provide the answer for your first three questions:

With Valluvar's Jaina background being discussed in every major translation or scholarly publications, it is possible that there is some truth behind these claims. There is a proverb in Tamil that no smoke can emerge without some fire (நெருப்பு இல்லாமல் புகையாது). The objective of this article is to investigate into such claims and to look for answers to the following questions:

(i) If the morals taught by Valluvar in Tirukkural is based on Jaina dharma
(ii) If the Deity praised by Valluvar in his first chapter could refer to Jaina Godhead
(iii) If the answer is 'yes' to the above, are the internal evidences sufficient enough to show Valluvar as a Jaina

Now, coming to your fourth question:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FloraiPuyal

4. Is this only about thirukkural or all works of thiruvalluvar?

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As far as I know, Valluvar has written only one work, i.e. Tirukkural. Some one else in this forum also indicated about "other works of Valluvar". I am surprised to know this. Can you please clarify?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NVK Ashraf

Dear Puyal,

I think the following paragraph reproduced from my article will provide the answer for your first three questions:

With Valluvar's Jaina background being discussed in every major translation or scholarly publications, it is possible that there is some truth behind these claims. There is a proverb in Tamil that no smoke can emerge without some fire (நெருப்பு இல்லாமல் புகையாது). The objective of this article is to investigate into such claims and to look for answers to the following questions:

(i) If the morals taught by Valluvar in Tirukkural is based on Jaina dharma
(ii) If the Deity praised by Valluvar in his first chapter could refer to Jaina Godhead
(iii) If the answer is 'yes' to the above, are the internal evidences sufficient enough to show Valluvar as a Jaina

Now, coming to your fourth question:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FloraiPuyal

4. Is this only about thirukkural or all works of thiruvalluvar?

---

As far as I know, Valluvar has written only one work, i.e. Tirukkural. Some one else in this forum also indicated about "other works of Valluvar". I am surprised to know this. Can you please clarify?

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Unfortunately most of my books are in India and I am here in the US. So I am unable to give you complete details of his other works.

But still I do remember a few of his poems. I will quote a couple of them for now.

எவ்வுயிரும் காக்கஒரு ஈசன்உண்டோ இல்லையோ
அவ்வுயிரில் யான்ஒருவன் அல்லனோ – வவ்வி
அருகுவது கொண்டிங்கு அலைவதேன் அன்னே
வருகுவது தானே வரும்.

"Is there not an eesan (sivan) to protect all lives? Am I not one of them? Why be bothered by things that are destructible? Whatever should happen will happen."

குறுமுனிவன் முத்தமிழும் என்குறளும் நங்கைச்
சிறுமுனிவன் வாய்மொழியின் சேய்.

"kurumunivan's (agathiyan) tamil and my (thiruvalluvar) kural are children of nangai's (umai / parvathi) son's (murukan) language."

Will try to remember more and will post as I do.

Mr. Puyal,

I am shocked to know that these poems are attributed to Valluvar. :shock: Frankly I have no idea about the source of these poems. I have read innumerable number of books on Tirukkural (Translations, Commentaries, Research articles), but none of them attribute any work or even a fragment other than the Kural as Valluvar's.

Valluvar's work - unlike those of the Kannada 'equivalent' Sarvajna and Telugu 'equivalent' Vemana - is a single work with no poem or couplet out the 1300 couplets attributed to him. Apart from minor differences in prosody, readings and verse placements (what we follow globally is Parimel's arrangement), the Kural is the same wherever you go and buy.

No other work is attributed to Valluvar!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NVK Ashraf

Mr. Puyal,

I am shocked to know that these poems are attributed to Valluvar. :shock: Frankly I have no idea about the source of these poems. I have read innumerable number of books on Tirukkural (Translations, Commentaries, Research articles), but none of them attribute any work or even a fragment other than the Kural as Valluvar's.

Valluvar's work - unlike those of the Kannada 'equivalent' Sarvajna and Telugu 'equivalent' Vemana - is a single work with no poem or couplet out the 1300 couplets attributed to him. Apart from minor differences in prosody, readings and verse placements (what we follow globally is Parimel's arrangement), the Kural is the same wherever you go and buy.

No other work is attributed to Valluvar!

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If you are in India, I suggest you try to get the book "Thanippadal thirattu". It is a collection of poems by different poets, including Thiruvalluvar. You can find both these and some more poems in that. I think it also has some explanations about the situation in which each poem was composed.

I knew that you would be surprised. But it is real, dear. :)

- Some stanzas attributed to VaLLuvar before the "Sangap Palakai" finally accepted KuRaL, thiru NVK Ashraf.

Pl also look into those!

Dear Puyal and Bismala,

Do you seriously agree with such claims of Valluvar's authorship? Or just pointing out that such claims of authorship exist?

Many works are attributed to well known authors. Take Kambar. Traditionally there are other works attributed to him (like சரஸ்வதி அந்தாதி, சடகோபர் அந்தாதி, திருக்கை வழக்கம்) but scholars like Hart, Zvelebil and others do not accept this theory.

To cite another example, traditionally few other works than Yoga Sutra (Mahabhasya and works on Ayurveda) are attributed to Patanjali, but many scholars do not consider them as his work.

If this is the case with Kambar and Patanjali, whose other works are always mentioned whenever an article is written about them, it is hard to believe in the theory of attributing other works to Valluvar!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NVK Ashraf

Dear Puyal and Bismala,

Do you seriously agree with such claims of Valluvar's authorship? Or just pointing out that such claims of authorship exist?

Many works are attributed to well known authors. Take Kambar. Traditionally there are other works attributed to him (like சரஸ்வதி அந்தாதி, சடகோபர் அந்தாதி, திருக்கை வழக்கம்) but scholars like Hart, Zvelebil and others do not accept this theory.

To cite another example, traditionally few other works than Yoga Sutra (Mahabhasya and works on Ayurveda) are attributed to Patanjali, but many scholars do not consider them as his work.

If this is the case with Kambar and Patanjali, whose other works are always mentioned whenever an article is written about them, it is hard to believe in the theory of attributing other works to Valluvar!

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Dear Ashraf, I guess you are probably too confused with misleading comments. Poets of olden days had a few things in common - they will not lie, they all had distinct styles in their works.

If you compare the works attributed to Thiruvalluvar, you can see the pattern. No one else can write exactly like him. In fact the writing style helped identify that there were atleast more than one poet by the name avvai. But in case of Thiruvalluvar, the pattern is strikingly similar in all of these works.

Also, please note that no one will ever dare claim Thirukural to be their work. In the second poem I mentioned, the poet specifically states "My Kural". Modern cine poets could do this, not those of olden days.

Thirukural was a materpiece and so his other works are being unnoticed. That doesnt mean that he didnt write anything else at all.

In fact, if I want to just mislead, I dont have to look for references, I can compose a few poems on my own, say that they were written by Thiruvalluvar - but think again, it is the style which distinguishes these poets. Also please note that I am not quoting from any specific work which says Thiruvalluvar belonged to saivism or some thing like that. These poems are under general collection of individual poems from avvai to kalamegam.

Truth is truth. Face it. :wink:

Dear Puyal,

You said:
Poets of olden days had a few things in common - they will not lie, they all had distinct styles in their works. If you compare the works attributed to Thiruvalluvar, you can see the pattern. No one else can write exactly like him.

I understand about distinctive styles. But please don't say that others' cannot copy Valluvar's style. I have seen people these days producing "dummy" couplets in Valluvar's own style! History of literature (globally) says that those who wish their work to be recognized often attribute it to a well known person (so that it doesn't get rejected). To do so they have to ensure that the style and content of the verse or poem they produce are of the same style! Therefore to say that "they don't lie" is not correct. Also integrity is not something that can be mentioned as an evidence in a research report or article.

The reason why Patanjali's other works are not recognized as that of the person who wrote the Yoga Sutra is because of inconsistency in style! One theory is that there must have been more than one Patanjali, just like Avvai and Agasthiyar.

I cant believe that you have taken the statement like "My Kural" that appeared in some poem as an indication for Valluvar's authorship of that work! And that too of about a person like Valluvar who never mentioned about himself in his work (usually the case with most Indian works)!

You also said:
Thirukural was a materpiece and so his other works are being unnoticed. That doesnt mean that he didnt write anything else at all.

As a general statement, this argument makes sense. But I cannnot say so in the case of Valluvar. I have a simple question. If Valluvar had written other works as well (I don't have ANY problem in accepting this, if there sufficient scholarly acceptance to this), why not the scholars who write about Valluvar and his work never mention about this? Why is this only limited to online discussion forums like this?

Quote:

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As a general statement, this argument makes sense. But I cannnot say so in the case of Valluvar. I have a simple question. If Valluvar had written other works as well (I don't have ANY problem in accepting this, if there sufficient scholarly acceptance to this), why not the scholars who write about Valluvar and his work never mention about this? Why is this only limited to online discussion forums like this?

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Dear Ashraf, poeple go for the masterpiece rather than the other, so that they too can become "distinguished". Scholars - schoolchildren, no diff.

Between Aiswarya Rai and her little known sister, you like to marry Ais. Something like that.

"aadukiRa kovilukku viLakkup pidiththaal, athanaal pukaz undaakum, maRRa nanmaikaLum undaakum."

uNmaithaanE?


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