Raaja - comparing 4 decades of musical output

genesis,

Let me try and give a couple of examples. The first one from 'kaatha jaadhi'. Song sung by Mahathi, 'enna marandalum'.

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00285.html

Observe how Mahathi starts the song. Without any backing instruments, it is clear it is a 'village' song. The tune is very clearly 'folk' or 'village type' (if I can use such a phrase.) Once that is established, then world music takes over :) When the pallavi starts the accompaniment is congos and drums which are not really folk or village instruments. The first interlude again has guitar, violins with flute providing the counterpoints. The second interlude has the guitar again playing with the keyboards and the metal part of the drums. None of these again village instruments. Inspite of all these instruments getting into the song, what remains is the haunting emotion of the girl and her sorrow. An amazing number which only a genius can compose.

Or from the same movie check out 'katre katre' probably the best song Karthik has sung. The folk part is unmistakeable in the prelude flute and the pallavi of the song. In the first interlude check how the synthesizer cooperates with the flute (synth nowhere close to being a folk instrument) and see how the charanam has changed with the drums accompanying the tune now and the phrasing also changed a lot. Still the folk element of the tune is not changed!!! Not sure how he does that. The second interlude starts with tavil and the nadaswaram, carnatic instruments which play a folk tune and again the flute and synth come in. So many different instruments, change in phrasing but the soul is still folk.

When I wrote about this movie once, Plum said it was a 'Platinum Standard'. I vehemently agreed with him.

A more famous song would be 'madura marikozhundu' song. After the 'pacharisi maavu' is completed, there is a brief flute to which the keyboard provides the counterpoints. The first interlude starts in the WCM fashion with the violin and flute counterpoints. The whole song is based on the carnatic raga 'Mayamalavagowla'. Listen to Chitra's entry and the violin backing. Pure WCM stuff. The second interlude again is WCM if you look at how each instrument counters the other or it is carnatic if you see how 'Mayamalavagowla' is developed. So much happening in this song but overall it will be clear to everyone who listens that it is a folk song, everything else be damned :D

genesis,

Thanks for the compliments but I believe there are quite a few others who have been posting top drawer stuff. Jai, Saagar, Punnaimaran, app_eng among others.

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Originally Posted by app_engine

In other words, does it mean that comparing decades using "IR's focus on the emotional quotient of songs as applicable to characters / situation " is a futile exercise? :-)

May be, but at least for one emotion, I think age has taken its toll - "thuLLum iLamai" stuff. His score for such characters during 70's/80's was a lot more spontaneous as compared to later years where it sounds 'measured and labored':-(

Compare 'vAdi En kappakkezhangE' and 'eLa vayasu pasangaLaththAn', for e.g.

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In a way you are right, about the emotional quotient being intact.

I understand what you say about the 'thullum illamai' thing. Maybe a comparison of 'ilamai idho idho' to 'ilavayasu' would be more appropriate because both probably have the urban milieu as the backdrop. And ofcourse, 'ilam idho idho' wins hands down. I think this also has to do with the synth taking over (and it is no match to the acoustic drumming of the early Raja) and the voice of Tippu / Vijay Yesudas/ Madhu B et al who sing these songs nowadays, being nowhere close to SPB or MV in terms of talent.

Whereas the 'vadi en kappa kazhange' type of songs still come with equal effectiveness under Raja's baton. As an example, listen to 'anne anne' from 'Kadhal Jaathi'. I would rate this on par or even better than 'vadi en kappa kazhange'. Similarly, the 'Valmiki' song, 'rekka katti parakudhu' has the same sort of energy what with the nadaswaram and thavil doing their bit.

To certain extent, the fun songs concept has changed now more to reflect the pop/rock rhythms, something which Raja doesn't seem to be keen on following. Or maybe he is not effective here in attracting the attention as others have been. (Depends on how you view it :) )

Thanks Suresh.

ok, I get it. It is like using English words when speaking in Tamil? (or any other language). But what is new about it? It is just Globalization of Music. Isn't some thing every music director from ARR to James Vasanthan done it?

ARR - Alai Payudhey Kanna, recently Ghenda Phool in Delhi-6
Deva - Konja Naal Poru Thalaiva
Vidyasagar - Sudum Nilavau, Thom Thom
YSR - Kanda Naal Mudhal (Heavily inspired from Alai Payudhey Kanna)
James Vasanthan - Kangal Irandal

I think it started with Punjabi Folk songs. They are the one who westernized their folk songs. Generally speaking, a good musician shall be able to substitute one instrument with another similar instrument. Most widely replaced being percussion in the above examples. I am not impressed with your examples from Kaadhal Jaathi.

IMHO, your third example "Madurai Marikozhundhu" does not necessarily fall in this category. Digression: It is one of my favorite song, I have an uncontrollable urge to listen this song, whenever it comes to my mind. I wish IR used to SPB inplace of Mano, but still a great song.

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Originally Posted by genesis

Thanks Suresh.

ok, I get it. It is like using English words when speaking in Tamil? (or any other language). But what is new about it? It is just Globalization of Music. Isn't some thing every music director from ARR to James Vasanthan done it?

ARR - Alai Payudhey Kanna, recently Ghenda Phool in Delhi-6
Deva - Konja Naal Poru Thalaiva
Vidyasagar - Sudum Nilavau, Thom Thom
YSR - Kanda Naal Mudhal (Heavily inspired from Alai Payudhey Kanna)
James Vasanthan - Kangal Irandal

I think it started with Punjabi Folk songs. They are the one who westernized their folk songs. Generally speaking, a good musician shall be able to substitute one instrument with another similar instrument. Most widely replaced being percussion in the above examples. I am not impressed with your examples from Kaadhal Jaathi.

IMHO, your third example "Madurai Marikozhundhu" does not necessarily fall in this category. Digression: It is one of my favorite song, I have an uncontrollable urge to listen this song, whenever it comes to my mind. I wish IR used to SPB inplace of Mano, but still a great song.

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Ok cool - IR's philosophy of unification has to be 'felt' not analysed based on what instruments have been used. Endha musical formlayume oru instrumentai use pannakoodadhunnu sattamE illai. Rigidity is just imposed by conductors and personalities.
The violin is not a native indian instrument, yet carnatic music has absorbed it whole heartedly. G.Ramanadhan was the pioneer in film music in using instruments from western classical and jazz elements into hard core mythological and devotional films -
It requires talent to 'localize' it and present it in a 'unique' pattern which is what Raja did time and again and as I mentioned, he simply followed a path laid by his predecessors. but he did more of 'menakettufying' which our present generation MDs dont do.

folkish ஹம்மிங், chorus மெலடி மேகம் கருக்கையிலே ...has flute interlude

evergreen folkish composition with alluring flute,guitar,drums orchestration.
ஒரு கிளி உருகுது உரிமையில் பழகுது ஒ மைனா மைனா....
S.P.Shailaja with Janaki

In வனமெல்லாம் செண்பகப்பூ..... too Ilayaraaja employs FLUTE ( untraditional tamil grammiya instrument) along with the several traditional percussions. AWESOME FOLKISH composition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LFPqq6Lp94

jazzy trumpet lude for கொம்புள்ள பூவ சுத்தி.....

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer...7SNGIRR4081%27

அவதாரம்
folkish melody with symphony orchestration.
http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=879...79902592191124

சுந்தரி கண்ணால் ஒரு சேதி......typical yearning mood carnatic kalyani melody with the western classical interludes expressing the war theme - (Rajini -karnan)

மன்னவா மன்னவா நீ மன்னாதி ..... தாலாட்டு பாடல் with the interlude forthcoming danger (சத்யராஜ் ஓடி வருவானே..)
http://www.musicplug.in/multiple_son...aa&page=movies

Shall we take
சுந்தரி நீயும் ......மைகேல் மதன காமராஜன் ......கமலஹாசன் & ஜானகி ... is a carnatic duet in Raagam kedharam with malayalam lyrics(for the situation...according to the movie) with counterpoints (chorus, violin and the guitar rhythm).... (second lude flute and the guitar strumming)
Indian Classical melody + Western classical techniques & instruments.

ILAYARAJA is doing WHAT HE IS GOOD AT preserving the mood of the compositions while expressing his musical virtuosity!:bluejump:
vinatha.

genesis,

I am not sure I explained it well enough. I can see that you didn't get it. Here is another try.

The songs you have mentioned have two distinct streaks very clearly visible. Whether it be 'Ghenda Phool', 'Alaipayude', 'Kangal Irandal' or 'En Veetu Thotathil' etc. Here the two different streams of music, say Carnatic Reethigowla in 'Kangal Irandal' is made clear and it is also made clear that it is being followed by some western pop loop. Same way with 'Alaipayude'. The Kanada ragam being followed by a western loop. In case of 'Ghenda Phool' it is Gujarathi folk song accompanied by Western beats. This is one mode of fusion, where you keep two different streams very distinct and show their identity clearly. The music directors role here is to ensure that they sound good together. In these cases, even a layman can easily make out that two streams of music, say pop and carnatic are being used together.

In the other mode of fusion, you fuse the elements so well together that they overall have only one 'sound' or 'mood'. This is what Raja does. As I said, if you as a layman about 'Alaipayude' or 'Ghenada Phool' or 'Kangal Irandal', he / she will tell you that this is a 'remixed ' carnatic / folk song. (Remix is not a bad word here and generally people refer this to the rhythmic loops used. In other words, people see the two musical forms very distinctly.)

Whereas if you ask a layman about 'Madura Marikozhundu', he / she is going to tell you that it is a folk song or at most a cine folk song. The truth is that 'Madura Marikozhundu' contains more genres than 'Kangal Irandal' or 'Ghenda Phool'. As I said, it has the carnatic Mayamalavagowla, it has the WCM counterpoints, it has guitars and it has the folk touch. Everything is fused in such a manner as to sound as a simple Tamil folk song. That is why you feel it is not in the category I mentioned !!!

This approach has a certain beauty and when we understand what had been done, we are dumbfounded. How is it possible for such a seamless fusion to happen? On the other hand, its own success may be its downfall!! People may think there is no fusion whatsoever in 'madura marikozhundu' and will casually remark, 'even the new music directors nowadays are doing great fusion work. Why can't Raja do something like this?' !!!

genesis,

Coming to instruments usage, I will confess I probably took the discussion in a different route here, though my intent was not that. Vinatha has given some nice examples and I fully agree with Jai that there is no grammar as to what instruments should be used as such and is left to the imagination of a good music director.

Having said that, let me clarify what I meant. Here again I want to bring in the two different perspectives to fusion. One where the 'foreign' instruments are made to sound 'foreign'. That is, they do not merge with the other sounds but stand apart clearly. Like how the beats are used in 'Alaipayude Kanna' or 'Manmohini' (from Yuvraaj). Here the intent of the music director is to make this distinction clear. They is a certain charm in this type of instrument usage and the music directors exploit this seeming difference. (Even Raja's "Mappilaiku Maaman Manasu' falls in this category.) Not only the instruments but the rhythmic phrasings are also distinctly 'foreign'. Taking 'Ghena Phool' as an example, you can see that the western drums when they enter don't enter as a replacement for any folk instrument. They enter as western drums, with the rhythmic phrasings exactly like how a western drummer's would be for a western song.

The second type of 'foreign' instrument usage is to 'localize' it, as Jai says. Here the instrument usage gets so integrated into the primary form that it doesn't sound foreign. One reason again why synth usage in 'Katre Katre' of Kadhal Jathi does not fascinate you nor do you consider it as anything extraneous!! That is because Raja has 'localised' it to merge with the song.

Another song which gives you a more clear picture about what I am trying to say is 'mellaionnu' from 'Manasinakkare'. You can listen to it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJuPo...eature=related

Try clicking on the link and listening to the song before you read my explanation. I personally found this out only after I heard the song atleast a dozen times or more.

Here is what happens in this song. The first charanam has the tabla for backing. This continues throughout the first charanam. The second charanam has the same tune as the first, except that the synth drum now follows it. And you can't make out the difference!!! Tabla has been replaced by synth drum and these are not similar sounding instruments. The synth drum is not made to sound like a tabla. Instead what Raja does is something deep. He seems to understands the rhythmic phrasing of the tabla and the synth drums intimately. He composes the tabla's rhythmic structure is such a way that in the second charanam when the synth drums take over, they don't sound different at all and you don't even realize that they have taken over from the tabla. This requires knowledge of two things: the sound texture of the rhythmic instruments used and the typical rhythmic phrasings that are used by each of these instruments. These two are like knowing some theorems. For guys like us understanding a theorem is an achievement. A great mathematician will come up with a new theorem using the existing ones. Raja is a top class mathemagician and he comes with his own wonderful theorems.

(Let me digress here a bit and give unmusic observation about the 'manasinakkare' song. One, whenever I see this song I get the urge to start my car and go to Kerala!! Second, Nayantara looks so good in this song. What was the need for the 'change'?)

And genesis, finally, don't get me started on the Punjabi / Western combination. I definitely did not mean such 'confusion'. I will not comment on those as I don't want to use bad words in this forum. :)

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

Another song which gives you a more clear picture about what I am trying to say is 'mellaionnu' from 'Manasinakkare'.
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Sweet song, thank you for the link Sureshji!

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I definitely did not mean such 'confusion'. I will not comment on those as I don't want to use bad words in this forum. :)

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:lol:

Thanks to my recent association with a few Punjabi families, in the last one year or so, had opportunity to attend many 'bhAngdA' parties. While it's definitely dance-infusing music (and these people dance so well, for hours, and we've been into the dancing ring most of the times - making exercise-like movements providing comic relief to the group), for my TFM-tuned ears, it is - to put it mildly - monotonous :-)

Your description of confusion is apt:-)

One small request Sureshji - please write about 'pani vizhum malar vanam' - that's my most loved "fusion" song of IR.