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Thiru NVK Ashraf, Kindly proceed; I am happy to note that you are being as objective as possible in assessing all data. Wish you all the best. I have to thank you, as indeed all other forum friends will do, for your great effort in producing an additional material for us to read and enjoy.
TO ALL interested in knowing the Meaning of Thirukural. Pls download the PDF file attached in my signature . The document contains translated version it really worth downloading.
Dear Friends,
When we have something we need to look on what it says, but searching on what is hidden comes when you are sure what is said in the front have been verified completely.
NVKji says,
//The very fact that Vedic religion says there is a Superior God, goes on to show there are inferior gods as well! Forget about why MaxMuller was commissioned, but the word he coined "Henotheism" is correct. It is only because in Hinduism the presence of other gods is accepted that one particular god had to be considered the Supreme. Monotheism is a word coined by the West and let us not be mislead to believe that is the best and correct. Judaic monotheism is based on a belief in a God with the exclusion of all other gods (relevant text to read is Karen Amstrong's History of God) and Vedic 'monotheism' is the belief in a Superior god with the inclusion of all other gods.//
I feel complete Prejudice here. Judaism as a Religion was never Practiced at all. It Acknowledges several gods when looking for Superior Creator. The lord or “YHWH” commonly called yahweh or jehowah is not the ultimate God, but a smaller One or a god for the territory of the Landmass- Israel, and Bible tells many such smaller Dieties. Archealogy shows that Idol worship continued even upto Roman days, and even Idols for jehwah . The real meaning of the Divine names are not known- “El”, “Elohim”. “ ElShaddai” and “yhwh”are unknown. Ellohim went to Arab and became Allahudum or Allah. Now Scholors see that El is from the Tamil word “எல்” and Ellohim- where Hi is Femnine Pludral and virtually an equivalent of Tamil Ammaiappan. Shaddai- a common word to refer God Shiva. As per various Theosophical Society revelations the writing of yhwh in Hebrew represent the Vedic God ShivaLinga. I can show several proofs for acknowledgement of smaller gods and lord or jehovah is a smaller deity with in the Jewish Beliefs.
Let us Concentrate on KURAL:
"ஆதி பகவன் முதற்றே உலகு", AS I have explained Chief Minister is translated as முதல் அமைச்சர், so here it is Suprme GOD, Now on your question why Vlluvar uses ஆதி and not Other words, the first thing is He must follow all the Rules for Venba, that he should not miss Thalai etc., and Tamil rules. For Eg. TholKappiyam is clear that “sa, sai, sow” cannot be start of Tamil words, and Valluvar had hardly Used them. So Grammer Rules is important. You go away from Kural with assumptions that Valluvar missed end, why you search for Interpretations you want. In first Couplet Ellam covers all- and if applied to Ulagu, then Advaitic All are made by God and He is in all comes. The Word உலகு is certainly referring to the Universe can be confirmed with various Other Kurals, details in other Posts.
Further as I had mentioned earlier The Timing of Valluvar 250-300CE, had given him no Freedom under Kalapira rule, so He used terms uncommon and looks like they can be linked to Jains/ Buddhists. The Concept of Creator God is revealed by Valluvar.
Now the question is
§Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡É - Now Jainism denies Women of Salvation Completely; they have to reborn as Male to get Salvation. Valluvar’s God does not have male or female preference- and He is §Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡É. Here Judaism’s Prayer for every Male is - lord, I thank you for your have not made born me as Female or Dog ( means Non-Jews); this Prayer is practised from at least BCE 350 When Judaism Historically was born to till date. Secondly Bible and Quran tells of Chosen People and that israel’s small god converting the River Nile to Blood and Killing of all First Infants of Human and Animals of Egyptians, and certainly this god is not §Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡É or even the Suprme God.
¾ÉìÌŨÁ þøÄ¡¾¡ý- Now Mahavira, Buddha, Valluvar, Rishaba Deva, Jesus or Mohammed all are Mortal Souls and Never Valluvar would have referred this to any Man and this has been the interpretation of morethan 95% of Commentators, who looked at them Impartially.
«ÈÅ¡Æ¢ «ó¾½ý- Referring God by the term ” «ó¾½ý” is a Practice to Shiva, Brahma etc., In Sangam Literature itself and never to Jainistic Rishba till atleast next 800 years after Valluvar. «ÈÅ¡Æ¢ is Secular word.
«ÈÅ¡Æ¢ «ó¾½ý ¾¡û§º÷ó¾¡÷ì ¸øÄ¡ø
À¢ÈÅ¡Æ¢ ¿£ó¾ø «¡¢Ð.
À¢ÈÅ¢ô ¦ÀÕí¸¼ø ¿£óÐÅ÷ ¿£ó¾¡÷
þ¨ÈÅý «Ê§ºÃ¡ ¾¡÷. - In both this Kurals Valluvar cannot refer to Deadmen feat, but to the Supreme God, even Diehard Jain or Buddha believer would ask us to follow their Teachings and not on holding feet, Valluvar is very Clear, He refers to Supreme God, and Valluvar when names at 25 Different Kurals various Hindu Deity names, follows Henotheism.
Now Secondly Both Jainism and Buddhism and even Christinity follow Negative Ethics- Be Disciplined, are else You would Perish; No Enjoyment at all (LIFE NEGATION). Tirukural is more a Postivie Life Oriented Ethics i.e., “World and Life affirmation as Hinduism”. This basic trait completely takes Valluvar away from Jainism. Due to this Jainish ethics say- “must not drink Honey, Do not take Bath, do not Wash Tooth etc., Valluvar is clear on bathing, drinking Honey etc.,
Secondly the thoughts such as Vegetarianism and other ethics are the Continuation of Vedic Tradition, Pythogorous who spent 9 years in India, and was the Father of Greek Philosophy, suggests Vegetarianism, no doubt He got from India in 8th Cen BCE, much before Mahaveera founded Jainism. Only that Mahavira emphasised more on this. Due to the Highly Volatile situation in TN/India, by Preaching of Missionaries and later the Thani-Tamil and Dravidian movements- to look for the real Interpretations of Vedas itself is rarely been done.
Tho.Po.Me. who wrote the Book “SAMANA TAMIL ILAKIYA VARALARU” - on Thiru Valluvar his opinion is Kural does not confirm that Valluvar was Jain after a detailed Analyses on KURAL, because Valluvar goes many ways against Jain Ethics.
þÕû§º÷ þÕÅ¢¨ÉÔõ §ºÃ¡ þ¨ÈÅý
¦À¡Õû§º÷ Ò¸úÒ¡¢ó¾¡÷ Á¡Ðî
The twin deeds of dark illusion do not affect those
Who delight meaningfully in Lord's praise. -----from NVK website.
Here again It is on God’s Praise,and if we say on Dead Great men- I feel a great disservice to Valluvar. And þ¨ÈÅý ¦À¡Õû§º÷- He directs things - is against Jainism.
Buddishism and Jainism, for that reason every Man made religions absorbed from the Older existing religions and changed and claimed as its own. Buddhism and Jainism took Ramayan and Mahabaratha and wrote to suit their beliefs. Judaism took from Zoroastrianism. Christianity took from Judaism, Mithraism. Manichism took from Zorashraism , Christianity and Buddhism and claimed Manes as the Last Prophet for all of these. Islam’s Prophet took from Manes and Christianity and made similar claims.
First if we Understand that Valluvar’s Period and His Compulsions with Alien Rulers then we can understand He Used Secular words specifically to thwart the Kalapira rulers and he used the names of God an indirectly refered Vedas etc.,
Devapriya.
Dear Devapriya,
I have read your long reply. It seems you are convinced that the Deity Valluvar is praising in chapter 1 is nothing but an Omnipresent Creator God. When I read most of your observations, I get the feeling that you have no idea about the concept of God in Jainism or deitification in Buddhism. But before I go into this, I would like to respond first to your obsevations on Allah and Elohim.
I mentioned that Monotheism in Semitic faith has come by exclusion of all other gods and in Hinduism by the inclusion of all gods by recognizing one as Supreme. To this you replied:
I feel complete Prejudice here. Judaism as a Religion was never Practiced at all. It Acknowledges several gods when looking for Superior Creator. The lord or “YHWH” commonly called yahweh or jehowah is not the ultimate God, but a smaller One or a god for the territory of the Landmass- Israel, and Bible tells many such smaller Dieties. Archealogy shows that Idol worship continued even upto Roman days, and even Idols for jehwah . The real meaning of the Divine names are not known- “El”, “Elohim”. “ ElShaddai” and “yhwh”are unknown. Ellohim went to Arab and became Allahudum or Allah. Now Scholors see that El is from the Tamil word “எல்” and Ellohim- where Hi is Femnine Pludral and virtually an equivalent of Tamil Ammaiappan. Shaddai- a common word to refer God Shiva. As per various Theosophical Society revelations the writing of yhwh in Hebrew represent the Vedic God ShivaLinga. I can show several proofs for acknowledgement of smaller gods and lord or jehovah is a smaller deity with in the Jewish Beliefs.
I have no idea what you are saying here. Either you have to agree with what I said or disagree and produce explanations to the contrary. You have done neither. Are you saying all these because it is incorrect to believe in a Supreme God and at the same time believe in other gods as well? Well, I don't think so. As a scholar, I don't question religious beliefs of different communities and my job is only to compare and present the findings as it reveals itself.
Since you made some remarks, I would like to respond as it is also of interest to me (though they have little to do with my postings).
You said:
I feel complete Prejudice here. Judaism as a Religion was never Practiced at all.
What! Then what are those Ten commandments in Torah and what that Temple Mount in Jerusalem known for? They have a scripture, a sacred place for directing their worship, their own Rabbis, rituals and festivals! How can you say they never practiced
You also said: It Acknowledges several gods when looking for Superior Creator. The lord or “YHWH” commonly called yahweh or jehowah is not the ultimate God, but a smaller One or a god for the territory of the Landmass- Israel, and Bible tells many such smaller Dieties.
Did I say "YHWH" was ever considered a Superior God? The concept of a Supreme God exists only in Hinduism, not in Semitic tradition. That is why I said, the Judaic monotheism developed by the Jews, by excluding all other deities and exalting theirs.
You also said: Archealogy shows that Idol worship continued even upto Roman days, and even Idols for jehwah.
Indeed yes.
The real meaning of the Divine names are not known- “El”, “Elohim”. “ ElShaddai” and “yhwh”are unknown. Ellohim went to Arab and became Allahudum or Allah.
Both Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages. "Ilaah" in Arabic is "Lord or God". With the prefix "Al" (The), it becomes "Al-Lah" meaning "The God". Lord in Hebrew is "Eloh", sounding very similar to the Arabic "Ilaah". Quite naturally because both belong to the same Semitic family. Just "Padaiththavan" in Tamil and "Padachchon" in Malayalam because both belong to the Dravidian group. Elohim did not go to Arabs! Allah existed as a Deity amongst several other deities in Ka'ba before the advent of Islam.
Now Scholors see that El is from the Tamil word “எல்” and Ellohim- where Hi is Femnine Pludral and virtually an equivalent of Tamil Ammaiappan. Shaddai- a common word to refer God Shiva. As per various Theosophical Society revelations the writing of yhwh in Hebrew represent the Vedic God ShivaLinga.
Hard to believe. There is tendency to show that Saivism was prevalent even before the advent of Islam in pre-Islamic Arabia. I didn't know YHWH is also being considered a Shiv Linga! It is also news to me that Elohim has come from Tamil! Please read this article. "Is the word Allah similar to Elohim?" at http://www.plim.org/1Allah.html
I can show several proofs for acknowledgement of smaller gods and lord or jehovah is a smaller deity with in the Jewish Beliefs.
May be. So what? Did I say Jehovah is a Large Deity? Or a Supreme Deity? Please correct me if I had made such a statement.]
Earlier you said YHWH was nothing but Shiv Linga and now you say YHWH or Jehovah was a smaller deity. Was Shiv Linga a smaller deity?
Yes... Splendid.!.. Rich Analytical presentation by Mr. Ashraf.!! Hats off.!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
But I strongly differ on his stand of ...
...Giving a JAINIC COLOUR to Thirukkuralh.
May be Valhlhuvar was a Jain... or May not be too... On which personal aspects, we are NOT INTERESTED...
...especially under this Thread on Thirukkuralh...
... The Moral- Literature... of Tamil pride... and UNIVERSAL APPLICATION
I have wished Mr Ashrof well. However, my preliminary view was that VaLLuvar was not a Jain and he did not write kuRaL to promote or explain Jain ideals. I brought up some kuRaLs to thiru Ashroff but I found that these kuRaLs would not cause him to modify his views. I then decided not to write anymore but to let him complete his thesis. I think I should read his entire work and read more on Jainism before I comment again. There are also other views: vaLLuvar is atheist; vaLLuvar is Buddhist; vaLLuvar is Christian; vaLLuvar is vedic and so forth. Recently too I read a book on Gita and kuRaL and the points at which they converge' I also had some time back listened to a swamiji on the same subject - kuRaL and Gita. The "kuRaL - Jain proposition " is not new anyway. There is no harm . This does not mean I had supported the view. I am happy that Tamil Lit is being studied allbeit for various purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
All such varied outlook... based on different Religious Doctrines..
...such as Budhism, Jainism, Christianity, Islam and Vedic-Religion...
...have already been analysed indepth....by various Scholars of Combined Knowledge on Religions and Literature
... who have put forth... comparative evaluation... with their relevant Religious Gospels.
And finally concluded upon UNANIMOUSLY that Thirukkuralh is...
... No doubt a... PODHU-MARHAI.... Common-Religious-Code... relevant to each and every Religion... on their RUDIMENTARY FACTORS...
... as well as ... UNCONTRADICTORY to any individual faith...
....palpable enough either to oppose or omit partly even... as irrelevant for any segment of World-society.
.... Since it is the Mosaic pattern of all the Religions-Basis as its Foundation....
...More on the HUMAN-VALUES... emphasising more on EARTHL;Y LIFE...
... in Contrast to any and all the Religious Scriptures... which as a matter of Principle...
...stresses more on God as well as on the After Life of Mankind.
Especially I am of still of FIRM-IMPRESSION... that Thirukkuralh... can least be related Jainism ...
...which does not speak much of Earthly-life...
...other than the EFFICACY OF FATE and Value of every Living-beings at par with Humanity.
I can quote just three examples... which sense quite far from Jainic colour.
(1) Oozhaiyum uppakkam Kaanhbar
Ulaivinrhi thaazhaadhu ungjantrubavar..
(2) Mazhiththalum neettalum Vaendaa
(2) Even though Jainism does not discourage married life... it highly emphasises on the values of Brahmacharyam... rather celebacy... before and after marriage too.
Hence, Kaamathuppaal... in Thirukkuralh...HIGHLIGHTING ROMANCE... does not match with the BASIC CONCEPT of Jainism...
I eagerly look forward towards the descriptive meanings in the Jainic angle... from Mr. Ashraf.
In brief... I do not want to throw Cold-water on the enthusiasm of our friend Mr. Ashraf.
And I am with an open-mind... conforming to Thirukkuralh Gospel...
Yepporulh Yaar Yaar Vaay kaetpinum
Apporulh Mey-Porulh kaanhbadhu Arhivu.
With Best Wishes for the Success of Mr. Ashraf,
Anban... Sudhaama
Dear Sudhaama and Sivamaalaa,
I understand your predicaments in accepting the dominating Jaina ideas in Kural. I repeat once again. The Kural is not a work on Jainism. It is therefore not a book that Jains can claim to be theirs!
Interestingly, when people take the Kural as a Hindu work, there are no disagreements. The moment some one says Jaina, Buddhist or Christian ideas dominate the Kural, there is a hue and cry and they even drop their claims of Hindu authorship and start proclaiming it as a work of a person who did not belong to any religious sect! This has been the tradition, so to say.
I hope you all will be understand and appreciate my point some my following postings.
Let me now concentrate on my reply to Devapriya's last posting.
(2) More on the first couplet
To Devapriya:
You wrote:
Let us Concentrate on KURAL:
"ஆதி பகவன் முதற்றே உலகு", AS I have explained Chief Minister is translated as முதல் அமைச்சர், so here it is Suprme GOD, Now on your question why Vlluvar uses ஆதி and not Other words, the first thing is He must follow all the Rules for Venba, that he should not miss Thalai etc., and Tamil rules. For Eg. TholKappiyam is clear that “sa, sai, sow” cannot be start of Tamil words, and Valluvar had hardly Used them. So Grammer Rules is important.
Ok. I understand grammar rules are important. But I am not suggesting that he should have included "அந்தம்" also in the couplet in the present form! Writers first conceive the idea in mind before putting them in writing. If Valluvar's idea was to include "அந்தம்" also, he would have obviously composed the couplet in a different style, as per the conventional rules of Tamil grammar. The key twin-words Valluvar had in his mind were the Sanskrit words "ஆதி" and "பகவன்" and these must have been his first choice. In spite of so many other terms available for God, he has deliberately chosen them.
You go away from Kural with assumptions that Valluvar missed end, why you search for Interpretations you want. In first Couplet Ellam covers all- and if applied to Ulagu, then Advaitic All are made by God and He is in all comes.
Sorry, I am not saying that Valluvar "missed" the "End". Neither am I looking for interpretations I want. I am not suggesting that the first couplet is not applicable to a Creator God! In fact many of the couplets in Chapter 1 are perfectly suitable to describe a Creator God. My contention is that all the first 10 couplets suit well for Jaina god as well. And I agree with your Advaitic interpretation of the first couplet. It lends to that interpretation. I don't have any objection. I mentioned about "ஆதி முதல்வன்" in Mañimékalai and the word “ஆதி பிரான்” in Tirumandiram in my last posting. We may all have a disagreement with Kural, but we know for sure that Mañimékalai is a Buddhist work. Can you please tell what this "ஆதி முதல்வன்" is.
The Word உலகு is certainly referring to the Universe can be confirmed with various Other Kurals, details in other Posts.
I disagree. The word உலகு, depending on the context, can mean either the physical world or the people of the world. Please read couplet 256. "தினல் பொருட்டால் கொல்லாது உலகு எனின் யாரும் விலைப் பொருட்டால் ஊன் தருவார் இல்". Here it refers to the people of the world. Any doubt? Here is the translation:
"The world may say: “Meat we eat, but don’t kill’.
But no one will sell if there is none to buy. * (Kasthuri Srinivasan)
(3) God, beyond likes and dislikes
To Devapriya:
You wrote:
Now the question is §Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡É - Now Jainism denies Women of Salvation Completely; they have to reborn as Male to get Salvation.
Yes I agree. The great Jaina āchārya Kundakunda says in his Ashta Pahuda: "Has any one seen dogs, donkeys, cows and other cattle or women attain Nirvana?" (AP, 8:29). In fact Jaina religion has many such teachings (need for ascetics to be naked "naked") but the Kural is based on Jaina ethics and not on Jaina philosophy.
Valluvar’s God does not have male or female preference- and He is §Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡É.
'வேண்டுதல் வேண்டாமை இலான்' means "The One beyond likes and dislikes" which has a wider connotation and I am sorry you cannot take it specifically to mean that Valluvar's god has no bias towards men and women.
Here Judaism’s Prayer for every Male is - lord, I thank you for your have not made born me as Female or Dog (means Non-Jews); this Prayer is practised from at least BCE 350 When Judaism Historically was born to till date. Secondly Bible and Quran tells of Chosen People and that israel’s small god converting the River Nile to Blood and Killing of all First Infants of Human and Animals of Egyptians, and certainly this god is not §Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡É or even the Suprme God.
Very good! I appreciate your 'extension' of the definition of "Beyond likes and Dislikes' to juddge God of the Semitic World. The Judeo-Christian God, as described in the Qur'an and Torah, cannot have the previlege of being called 'வேண்டுதல் வேண்டாமை இலான்'. But I am going to tell you more on this. Since you are so inclined with the concept of a Creator God, let me reproduce below what I have written in my article on "Jaina Ideas in Kural": (Will be uploaded soon at this link: http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/nvk...uvar/jaina.htm
The phrase "வேண்டுதல் வேண்டாமை இலான்" which means "He who has neither desire nor aversion" has a strong ascetic flavour and would therefore be more relevant to a Jaina or Buddhist ascetic than to a Creator God. In Bhagvad Gita, we see Krishna telling Arjuna that all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate (7:27). Remember here Lord Krishna is telling about mortals like us. A creator God is not born into delusion for him to be overcome by the dualities of love and hate.
Once again verses of similar import from some Tamil Jaina works like Thirukkampakam (வேண்டுதல் வேண்டாமையில்லாத வீரன், 58) and Thiru Nūtranthāthi (ஆர்வமும் செற்றமும் நீக்கிய அச்சுதனே, செய்யுள், 20). However, we also see Appar attributing this quality to Lord Shiva as well: "வேண்டுதல் வேண்டாமை இல்லான் றன்னை" (Tirumurai, 6.46.9). [You will see Appar being different from other Saiva saints in Thirumuŗai, often describing Shiva in Jaina terms! Effect of a hang-over of being a Jaina in the past?]