Understanding "I" - Vedanta

Dear Pradheep

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This causal body is like "nothingness" that you experience similar to deep sleep state. With this clarity please go ahead, otherwise it will breed only confusion.

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Please read you own response to my questions. It is quoted below and this what you have said about the deep sleep.

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Yes without having the perception of the body I can have the feeling of "I" in deep sleep.

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Below is what Gaudapada and Sankara said about the deep sleep - Prajana

Prajana, the third quarter -Deep sleep:

Original verse in Sanskrit:

yatra supto n kanchan kamn kamyate n kanchan swapna pashyti tatsushuptam |
sushuptasthan ekibhuth: pragnadhan evanandmayo hyanandbhuk chetomukh: pragnastruteeya: pad: || 5 ||

Translation 1:

That is the state of deep sleep wherein the sleeper does not desire any objects nor he sees any dream. The third quarter (Pada) is the (Prajna) whose sphere is deep sleep, in whom all (experiences) become unified or undifferentiated, who is verily, a mass of consciousness entire, who is full of bliss and who experiences bliss, and who is the path leading to the knowledge (of the two other states)

Source: Mandukya Upanishad with Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.
Translated by Swami Nikhilananda Published by Advaita Ashrama

Translation 2:

That state is deep sleep where the sleeper does not desire any enjoyable thing and does not see any dream. The third quarter is Prajna who has deep sleep as his sphere, in whom everything becomes undifferentiated, who is mass of mere consciousness, who abounds in bliss, who is purely an enjoyer of bliss, and who is the doorway to the experience (of the dream and walking state).

Source: Mandukya Upanishad, Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.
Translated by Swami Gambhirananda Published by Advaita Ashrama

And below is what I said:

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Neural activities and other chemical balance surprisingly come back to normal during NREM Deep Sleep state. But the processing of sensory information is minimal simulating the pure unconditioned consciousness.

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Now it is already a well proven and well-established fact that it is no one but only you who remains immersed in misunderstandings and who breeds only confusions.

Please read and note the use of feeling - the neuronal activity in the brain - of "I" in deep sleep and then the misuse of the word "nothingness" for the same experience - the neuronal activity in the brain - in the deep sleep. Also note there is no mention of "nothingness" or similar concept in the original Sanskrit verse on Prajna - deep sleep and the two independent translations of the verse.

The misplaced and misuse of the word "nothingness" for deep sleep is yet another perfect demonstration of your own misunderstandings and confusions, which has resulted in such blunders in the article, creating serious contradiction between your own statements, written at different times in different mental states. It also proves your utter failure in realising that no one is as oblivious about the experience of deep sleep as you are proving your self to be.

Like I said in my previous post, "nothingness", "nihilism", "Sunya", "Void" etc. arises only for Turiya and not in the deep sleep as grossly misunderstood by you.

Recap of the three states: Visva - Walking state, Taijasa - Dream state and Prajna - Deep sleep state

Mandukya Upanishad: original verse in Sanskrit:

Bahishpragno vibhurvishvo hyant:pragnastu taijas: |
dhanpragnastha pragna ev thridha smrit: || 1 ||

Source: Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.

Translation 1:

Visva (the first quarter) is he who is all-pervading and who experience the external (gross) objects. Taijasa (the second quarter) is who cognizes the internal (the subtle) objects. Prajna (the third quarter) is who is a mass of consciousness. It is alone who is known in the three states.

Sankara's commentary:

The purport (the meaning) of the verse is this:

The transcendence of the three states by the Self, its unity, purity, and unrelatedness (to anything) are proved by the fact of Its existence in the three states in succession and of its being inter-linked by memory as "I". This is borne out by illustration of the great fish and others in the Vedic texts.

Source: Mandukya Upanishad with Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.
Translated by Swami Nikhilananda Published by Advaita Ashrama

Translation 2:

Visva experiences the external things and is all-prvading; but Taijsa experiences the internal things; similarly, Prajna is mass of consciousness. It is but the same but the same entity that is thought of in three ways.

Sankara's commentary:

The implication of this passage is this:

That Atman is (as witness) distinct from the three states (witnessed) and that is pure and unrelated, is established by his moving in three states, in succession, and also on account of the knowledge "I am that". Resulting from the experience which unites through memory. The Sruti also corroborates it by the illustration of the "great fish".

It was shown in my previous posts how the brain scan and images taken by different brain-scanning equipment reveal various neurological and chemical activities in the brain at various stages and conditions. I have also said that we could never be conscious or aware of what is happening in the brain. But today we have the technology and means to probe into brain's spheres of activity, study and know what is happening in the brain in various states and conditions. And how this equipment enable us to probe into much deeper and lower level of brain's latent or dormant state activities that are responsible for certain mental as well as physical conditions that were beyond the scope of grasp and comprehension in ancient times.

There are further more states than those three sleep sates, whereby brain's activities diminish to such a lower level that all the thoughts, feelings, experiences and concepts of "I/Self/Atman" gradually tend to disappear and then into literally nothing at death.

Such diminishing conditions occur in serious brain injuries, blackouts, and momentary lack of blood supply or oxygen supply to the brain - as the one and only internal, unseen witness.

There are even further lower states when person ends up in coma due to varied reasons and causes.

There are several scales of coma ranging from 3 to 15 to describe the severity of coma, scale 3 being a person in a coma with the lowest possible score and 15 being a normal appearing person. Research shows that if the scale remains below 4 after twenty-four hours, 87% of those individuals in coma will either die or remain in a vegetative state.

CT, MRI, SPECT and other brain scans are used to study and examine abnormalities in the brain's physical conditions, like swelling, cerebral blood flow rates, chemical balance, neurological activities etc.

When patient dies in coma, all neurological activities cease. All thoughts, fellings, experiences of "I" once he had, disappears literally into nothing, irrespective of the person, whether he/she is a meditating one or a non-meditating one.

Turiya- The fourth quarter:

Original verse in Sanskrit (in Roman script):

nant:pragna n bahishpragna nomyat:pragna n pragnandhanan n pragna napragnam |
adrushtam-vyavharyam-grahyam-lakshanyam-chintyam-vyapdeshyam-ekatmpratya-yasarn- praptrochopashamn shant-shivmdait chaturth manayante sa atma sa vigneya: || 7 ||

Translation 1:

Turiya is not that which is conscious of the internal (subjective) world, nor that which is conscious of the external (objective) world, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a mass all sentiency, nor all sentiency, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is insentient. (It is) unseen (by any sense organ), not related to anything, incomprehensible (by the mind) uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, essentially of the nature of consciousness constituting the Self alone, negation of all phenomenon, the peaceful, all Bliss and Non-dual. This is what is known as the fourth (Turiya). This is Atman and it has to be realised.

Commentary by Sankara:

The fourth quarter, which comes in order - for explanation, has to be described. This is done in the words of the text, "Not conscious of the internal object"

It (Turiya) does not admit of description or indication by means of words, for all uses (affirmative or negative) of language to express it. Therefore Turiya is sought to be indicated by the negation of all attributes (characteristics)

It (Turiya) is intended to establish the very Self, which subsists in the three states, as Turiya. This is done in the same way as "Thou art that". If Turiya were in fact, anything different from Atman subsisting in the three states, then, the teachings of the scriptures would have no meaning on account of the absence of any instrument of knowledge - regarding Turiya. Or the other - inevitable - alternative would be to declare absolute nihilism - Sunya - to be the ultimate Truth.

Then Sankara goes into the details of illusion in snake-rope analogy

Source: Mandukya Upanishad with Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.

Translated by Swami Nikhilananda Published by Advaita Ashrama

Translation 2:

They consider the fourth to be the that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor a mass of consciousness, nor conscious, nor unconscious; which is unseen, beyond empirical dealings, beyond the grasp (of the organs of action), uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable; whose valid proof consist in the single belief in the Self; in which all phenomena cease; and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self and That is to be known.

Commentary by Sankara:

So the very Self, subsisting usually in the three states, is sought to be established as Turiya in the same way as is done in the case of the text, "That thou art" (Ch. VI, viii) . For if Turiya, whose characteristics are dissimilar to the Self in the three states, be really different- from the Self, then owing to the absence of any means for realising Turiya the scriptural instruction would be useless or Turiya will be reduced to non-entity.

Then Sankara goes into the details of the illusion in snake-rope analogy.

Turiya described above precisely resembles the various states in coma and then the resulting death.

Not conscious of internal world, nor of the external world, nor conscious of both the words! Not sentient, nor insentient; unrelated to everything, incomprehensible, unthinkable, indescribable, not a mass of consciousness.

Precisely as Sankara feared due to the sheer absence of any instrument of knowledge regarding Turiya or the absence of any means for realising Turiya; Turiya thus, with the advances in science and technology and the availability of modern instruments and means to probe into the brain's neurological and other activities that were never possible or accessible before, reduces to non-entity as the one and only possible and inevitable outcome and declares the absolute nihilism - nothing - sunya - void as the ultimate Truth - exactly as I have proved in other threads [C = 1, P= 0] and [C = 0, P= 1] under the two, precisely defined and specified, boundary conditions.

My dear Pradheep, it is only you who are in search of water in the desert and running after the mirages formed on hot surfaces of the desert and thinks, sees and believes it is the waters of melted glacier of Mount Everest.

It is only you who thinks, sees and believes a rope in a snake.

It is only you who thinks, sees and believes the rattle of a rattle snake as a toy and the snake itself as a rope.

No wonder, why you couldn't ever think, feel, experience and conform to the reality as it is.

My friend, as I know it very well and now everyone knows too, that you are, without any doubt, a seriously deluded and confused person. However, the only consolation for you, out of this, is to maintain those blind and false beliefs in the Atman/Soul/Brahman, irrespective of the clear evidences that are completely contrary to those beliefs.

I shall leave it entirely up to you whether to carryon with your false beliefs and keep on posting and writing your imaginary and/or seriously deluded stories about your phantasms or not.

With this post, I request you not to feel or get offended if I ignore your subsequent delusive stories and do not respond until you have learnt to think and write something really sensible.

Till then Good Bye. :thumbsup: :wave:

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Originally Posted by Rohit

With this post, I request you not to feel offended if I ignore your subsequent delusive stories and do not respond until you have learnt to think and write something really sensible.

Till then Good Bye. :thumbsup: :wave:

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How to learn the thinking, Rohit. How?
How to deliver propper writing, Rohit? How?
There is nothing, Rohit. But just the holy cow! :lol:

:thumbsup:

Dear Rohit
Atleast this time you wrote soemthing to discuss instead of just passing your judgements. Give me some time I will get back to you. If possible giveme the book and the reference from which yougot the translations because most of the translations are mis-interpretted.

Dear Pradheep,

Read all the three of my posts again. All you have asked are in there, if you have missed them out of your utter bafflement. There is no scope of misinterpretation in either of the two independent and authorative translations as the verses themselves are understandable in themselves without the aid of translations. Only that lacks is your ability to absorb the clearly stated facts. :thumbsup: :)

Dear Rohit
Do not be scared to give the correct reference. It is benfit of the readers to know the correct interpretation. So please give me the reference for the quote you took. it also saves our time.

Pradheep, obviously, you must have gone completely blind and got stunned and paralysed for not being able to see and read the two reference sources I have already quoted in my posts.

Reference Source#1: Mandukya Upanishad with Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.
Translated by Swami Nikhilananda

First Published in 1932
Sixth Paperback Impression, February 1995

Published by: Advaita Ashrama, Calcutta 700 014

Reference Source#2: Mandukya Upanishad, Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.
Translated by Swami Gambhirananda

First Edition 1958
Thirteenth Impression, December 2001

Published by: Advaita Ashrama, Kolkata 700 014

All your baffled rections clearly show that you are now in utter dismay.

With this, I shall ignore all your immature and thoughtless posts from now on and let the readers, having access to those books, read and find out themselves the validity of facts in my posts. :thumbsup: :)

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absence of any instrument of knowledge regarding Turiya or the absence of any means for realising Turiya; Turiya thus, with the advances in science and technology and the availability of modern instruments

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Dear Rohit
Here is were you and many neuro-scientist miss the whole point. Since you agree that that Thuriya is a thoughtless state, which it is....when all thoughts ceases and so the "I" thought also ceases, naturally all the scientific insturments would show no "reading" in their screen. Agreed. Do you agree that scientific instruments would show no sign's of neurological activity, because of no thoughts?

Now let us say, Rohit is in Thuriya state of no mental activity, no thoughts. The instruments show no neuronal burst. But when Rohit comes to a thoughtfull state, wont he say that he was in a thoughtless state. Now if Rohit declares the statement , that there were no thoughts, who is there to witness that in thoughtless state.

Suppose Rohit makes a statment that in London bus station last night, there were no one in the bus station and also no busses at the station at 12.00 A.M, isnt that a contradiction of his statment. How can there be one, when the claimer himself was there and found no other person than himself was there. If there were no "one" then who witnessed that there were no one?. This witnesser cannot be excluded.

Instruments may measure zero neuronal activity and zero thoughts, but instruments cannot measure the witnessor , because it is not a neuronal thought. This is where scientific methods fail and groping in darkness. However a human (not an instrument) when comes back to thought state cannot deny "the experienced" thoughtless state. If he says there were no thoughts then he is the oberver with no thoughts.

So my dear Rohit, understand what Sankara said about Thuriya. He is correct that there is no thoughts in that state, but he did not deny a witnesser. Sankara beautifully gives the methodology to dissolve the "I" thought so that one can witness this state.

In a musical concert, the sruthi music can be heard only when the singing is stopped. When the singing is there, no one can here the sruthi. The interesting thing is that but the singer keeps in tune with the sruthi. The same way, without the witnesser there is no thoughts. The thoughts are in tune with the witnesser. But the witnesser is witnesed only in thoughtless state (when noise of the mind goes to zero).

No instruments can prove this because at this state "the witnesser, the witnessed and the witnessing" is one. I cannot show it to you nor can you to me. You have to experience that yourself and I can only experience that myself.

There is one difference here Rohit.....I experience thuriya state and also the witnessor. But you are talking through bookish knowledge and that is why you cannot understand what Adhi-Sankara or Buddha talks. Rohit meditate and get into thruriya state and when you get back to the thoughtless state you will know the witnessor. Book readign will not help. You have to make yourself to the zero thought stage and then come back to me and let me know whether you experienced zero thoughts or not. Till then all your bookish claims are futile. More to continue about consciousness not being a brain phenomenon only awareness is).

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Originally Posted by Pradheep

Do you agree that scientific instruments would show no sign's of neurological activity, because of no thoughts?

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Originally Posted by I

Neuroscientists find no brain state in which brain activities cease completely, unless it is a brain of the dead.

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So, the brain, as long as it is active, no matter how minimal, latent or dormant it is, it shows electrical and other activities that may or may not be related to thoughts, depending on the precise state it is in. Nonetheless, whatever minimal activities the brain - consisting of neural network, nervous system and associated cellular structure etc. - would show, are due to it registering and processing various experiences, feelings, and emotions in addition to it performing its vital functions of monitoring, regulating and controlling essential internal bodily functions.

When it (the brain) comes back into thinking state, it recalls witnessed events from the memory, which itself is an important part and neurological function of the brain. You have now clearly accepted, acknowledged and proved that Humans can do literally nothing without the brain (if it is literally not there, removed or it is dead) - an essential and indispensable organ of the Human anatomy. Like I have said many times now that the brain is the one and only unseen witness and much more in the entire phenomenon, whether in normal walking state, dreaming state, deep sleep state, delusive state, confused state, hallucinating state, schizophrenic state, under the influence of various intoxicants and psychotic drugs, other intermediate states or meditative states, brief strokes/episodes of blackouts, in monitoring, regulating and controlling internal bodily functions both in normal condition and during local and general anaesthetised states etc. etc. the list goes on.

As I have stated before, the brain, the one and only witness of the entire phenomenon, is not conscious or aware of itself or its own activity of witnessing - but it is there as more than just the witness, and this is why and how it often plunges into various perplexing and self-deceptive dilemmas. Now, it has become almost pointless to tell you and remind you of the countless evidences that I have produced here and in other threads to show and prove you (your brain) constantly going through all these self-deceptive dilemmas, precisely as I have stated. You also keep constantly forgetting that your body does have a head and it is not empty as you believe, but inside that head, resides the brain, the one and only, unseen witness and the source of all your (i.e. in your brain) misunderstandings, delusions and confusions borne out of self-deception - the phenomena that cannot and doesn't go without being witnessed by other, properly functioning, brains.

I would stronly suggest you to go back to the beginning of this topic and digest all my questions exactly as I have asked you about the body and try understanding all that followed after that. You may do this exercise as many times as you must, but do it until you grasp everything that I have said and proved.

By the way Pradheep, this is my one more attempt to help you remove your gross misunderstandings and confusions on Vedanta.

The Turiya is only called fourth quarter just to link the three experiences in order - now acknowledged by you as neuronal activities in the brain - as described before i.e. walking, dream and deep sleep and then the fourth quarter - the Turiya - was sought and then imagined/guessed to link the three experiences in order and arrive at a statement that attempts to blindly comply with the statements made in other vedic scriptural texts i.e. "That thou art". The referenced Upanishad clearly and rightly so, states and confirms that there is no means whatsoever left for realising or knowing Turiya other than the three states described before i.e. of walking, dream and deep sleep.

With this brief comment, I am delighted to re-write what I wrote before of which you could respond only to a tiny part, evidently that too with plenty of delirium, I am afraid.

Precisely as Sankara feared due to the sheer absence of any instrument of knowledge regarding Turiya or the absence of any means for realising Turiya; Turiya thus, with the advances in science and technology and the availability of modern instruments and means to probe into the brain's neurological and other activities that were never possible or accessible before, reduces to non-entity as the one and only possible and inevitable outcome and declares the absolute nihilism - nothing - sunya - void as the ultimate Truth - exactly as I have proved in other threads [C = 1, P = 0] and [C = 0, P = 1] under the two, precisely defined and specified, boundary conditions.

My dear Pradheep, it is only you who are in search of water in the desert and running after the mirages formed on hot surfaces of the desert and who thinks, sees and believes it is the waters of melted glacier of Mount Everest.

It is only you who thinks, sees and believes a rope in a snake.

It is only you who thinks, sees and believes the rattle of a rattlesnake as a toy and the snake itself as a rope.

No wonder, why you couldn't ever think, feel and experience that conforms to the reality as it is.

My friend, as I know it very well and now everyone knows too, that you are, without any doubt, a seriously deluded and confused person.

However, the only consolation for you, out of this, is to maintain those blind and false beliefs in the Atman/Soul/Brahman, exactly as you have been doing and have just done, irrespective of the clear evidences that are completely contrary to those beliefs. :notworthy:

Good Luck! :thumbsup: :) :wave: