Wow Great !!!! things are back to normal with discussions on the 'issue' instead of talking unrelated stuffs like Vegs Vs Non Vegs :wink: :lol: :P 8)
Easy folks easy !!! 8)
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Wow Great !!!! things are back to normal with discussions on the 'issue' instead of talking unrelated stuffs like Vegs Vs Non Vegs :wink: :lol: :P 8)
Easy folks easy !!! 8)
Cygnus,Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnus
Like mellon did, you are also ascribing a lot of things that I have neither mentioned nor implied.
I have never used the word "should" .. I have always approached life with an element of cynicism about myself that I could be wrong.
I have not passed any judgment, moral or otherwise, about the couple who intend to have their own biological child at the exclusion of any other option. I was only suggesting an other alternative, a better one according to me, if only they can alter their outlook. I have stated, given a particular mindset, the issue is not arguable. If they believe there is no alternative to a genetic child, then end of the argument. Period.
But the irrevocable truth, which can be realised only with an extremely open mind, is that there is no difference between the love I have towards my daughter and my son.
Also I am raising a basic question, the answer to which may be different to different people...
Why do we want to have children?
I think, it is an innate desire to procreate our speciies. (Not necessarily our genes)
It is also due to the urge for loving and being loved in its purest form, which results in a complete family. If so, any child can be yours if you love it. If you have any mental riders to this, then there is some cost involved, which may include the guilt of involving someother's life and emotions. If you are ready to pay that and other costs, the option is yours.
Again, if the reason to have a child is extraneous, like an investment for the future, or competition with rivals, then my views are less kind towards them.
But IF it, is only to escape from the social aspersions of being called 'barren', there cannot be a meaner reason than this to bring a life on to this earth. If you call this moral, I cannot call any thing else immoral.
The issue of having an issue is intricately wound round many primal instincts and nurtured by social customs. In our country where “living together” has not taken root yet, where we still trade woman WITH cash and chattel in marriage business, where we widely avail the service of “matrimonial ads” angling for tall, fair brides and software engineers in MNC’s, marriage is a big issue in the first place. Next, the first question asked by anyone meeting the bride a few days after marriage is “any special news?”( in Tamil “Ethaavathu vishEshamuNdaa?).
Having an offspring in hands at the completion of ten months after marriage is the best risk-free, care-free choice and luck of many couples. Crossing this time limit starts the persistent queries from any and everybody. We are not a “sensitive” people to consider this potential matter a private issue. After all it is pure, genuine concern about progeny- the ultimate aim of marriage. Whether we like it or not “to grow and multiply” is the design of Nature. It is an inborn urge. Thus it is an understandable matter how the pressure mounts for issueless couples.
In bygone days adoption was the only choice and as science and technology has grown, multiple choices are made available for the couples who feel they must have an issue by all means. (We shall not forget that some couples decide to live for each other, without resorting to any method to prolong the family line.) It would differ depending on the temperament, the wealthy position and exposure to broadminded ideas of the individuals concerned.
The very natural, undebatable desire of all parents-to-be is to have children who mirror them in looks and characteristics. The whole family and community supports this basic desire. “It runs in the family” is something to take pride in. These fundamental, primal instincts cant be helped.
A superior mind which has crossed the barriers of narrow considerations can transcend mundane expectations in a pursuit of pure, sublime, humane love. A Shekhar can think, feel otherwise than this normal herd. But Shekhars are a pathetic minority. Let us be realistic.
So nowadays issueless couples if they can afford it resort to surrogacy, yielding to a compulsive, primal instinct. It is a very human thing to do- IF it did not involve so much sacrifice on the part of the surrogate mother. I am not passing any judgement. A particle of “humanness” is missing in this transaction, in my opinion-it is a sort of heartless business contract from the surrogate mother’s point of view. To think poverty is the reason for the surrogate mother’s consent made me feel sad. That was the mood in which I started this issue about issue.
To love an adopted child also requires real generosity of heart. Are step-mother stories unheard of? This is similar to that. There can be, there have been wonderful step-mothers.
An ideal policy of marital love and family ties as Shekhar has are very rare. Those who don’t have it need feel no regret either. It takes all sorts of people to make the world. To conclude animal-like attachment to one’s own “flesh and blood” literally is quite understandable. Whether it is acceptable or not is not ours to decide.
PP Ma'm,
Wow! Excellent and balanced post. :thumbsup:
Shekhar, please tell me how else one would interpret the statement -Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekhar
*** If they are bent upon having genetic offspring inspite of their natural inability to produce a baby, ruling out adoption, then they must be ready to face the complications and difficulties. *** if not assuming that you implied that childless couples excluding adoption are selfish despite their natural deficiency which precludes them from pusuing other ways of begetting a child except adoption.
Let me reiterate that that I am not arguing for a personal stance, substantiating my choice. I don't want to color this issue with my personal choices. Regardless of what my choice is, what is my tolerance towards oters' choices - is the moral compass that steers this conversation for me. I could not make concise affirmative statements when the issue this deep and wide involving the decliate emotions and lives of many people.
PP, please accept my heartfelt thanks for your indepth analysis of the issue from many conceivable angles . I have echoed your thoughts in my all my posts that the desire to precreate is an innate drive that has led us to the present situation. It is not for us to decide upon the propriety of the many choices and the many struggles for clarity that have sprung from the choices. But it behooves us to embrace and learn to live with the variegations of our humanness.
Adoption has its own complications as well. Especially very emotional ones hanging between the biological parents and the real parents is NOT COMPLETELY eliminated. It is never risk-free!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekhar
It all depends on the individaul couple's maturity and morality as what they believe in, to deal with the situation and, the adoption may not be a best solution for some couples at least. They may very well be happy with "their own children" rather than adopting "other's children" 8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekhar
You know what Shekhar, it is ALWAYS the people those have different view than what we(u) have, GET ALL WRONG.
I see you are SAYING that in every post as they getting all wrong but u should know that THEY FEEL THE SAME WAY about YOU!
I thought u should know that YOU ARE NOT ALONE and u r not the only one whose posts all have been MISUNDERSTOOD and MISINTERPRETED 8)
Fine..Got your point.
But why big bold letters?! :roll:
Do you know who shouts?!! :) :)
LOL@Shekhar !!!! :rotfl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekhar
Cygnus.. Of course I know that. You are too mature to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnus
However strongly I was arguing my point of view, I had and have respect for yours. May be I lagged in my effort to look at the issue from your point of view.
PP Madam's post made me think a lot about my view point, or rather the 'rigidity' of my view point. I realised that I lacked the sensitiveness to understand the emotions of childless couple. This is where I realised that your sensitiveness and empathy in understanding the pangs of the childless couple is commendable. My view is flawed by two of my limitations. One is, being a man I lack the sensibility of a woman to understand the craving of a mother. The other is my lack of association with childless couple. My conviction has come from my own experience of having a child and almost forgetting she is not my natural child. But the draw back is that no one else can know what it is till they experience it. This truth cannot be 'told'. And I was precisely trying to do that.
We, in our infirmities, vehemently try to argue, mistaking our personal truths to be universal truths. I forgot for a while, that my truth is a personal one, true nevertheless, but cannot be a universal one. It is an infirmity on my part to expect others to accept my point of view. If someone had talked to me about adoption before I took my daughter, may be I would have reacted in a similar way you did.
I have not had close contact with childless couples, so I lacked the sensitivenss towards their problem. At the same time you have not seen my daughters relationship with me and my family. So such a solution doesn't enthuse you. Well it needed a PP mam to see both sides of the coin.
Is it a coincidence, that she is a woman? Honestly, I don't think so..
No two words about it !! I really admired the way she summarized the whole issue. But personally, I'm yet to be convinced as regards surrogacy. May be because I have associated with childless couples who have resorted to adoption without qualms - and I have seen how wonderfully the children and those parents share their love and affection with each other. I have also associated with parents like you who have chosen adoption despite of having their own child(ren). It's so encouraging and motivating. I personally feel that there should be as more counselors as possible to advice and encourage childless couples on adoption , as I - without any doubts consider it - as the best option available for themQuote:
Originally Posted by Shekhar
And I rest my case !!
Shekhar, you have illustrated lucidly just why you are such an adorable gentleman!!!! Thank you for stepping into my shoes and looking at the issue from the other side of the bank, it is exactly what I meant by no perspective is without merit, in one of the earlier posts.
Just one small clarification though, at the risk of sounding factitious, let me state that 'your solution does enthuse me' more than you could know. :D
It is not so often that PP and I resonate with the same frequency of ideas but this is indeed a rare moment for me :wink: :D
Shekhar:
It was in fact difficult to discuss this issue keeping an annoying "one-sided moderator" around here. So the best I could do was "e-SHOUT" to emphasise some comments without any personal attack. After all it is going to hurt only my "throat' (my key-board) not others' heart . 8)
You know, Shekhar, it is very interesting to see and learn about people's attitude when you stand in the other side in a "silly" argument. I mean most of us are going to go with the same opinion we had for sure, eventually. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to learn about people and, to reveal their "unseen" attitude, Shekhar.
Hey if at all u needed to visit the doctor to fix your "damaged ears", due to my "e-shoutings", let me know the amount you paid to fix it. I will write you a check for that amount as I am liable. :) Take it easy, my friend, Shekhar! :)
---------------------
Finally, PP, I must appreciate your open mind in this issue. After all u did not "hire" the "moderator" for your thread and so I know u r not the one to blame for that. !:lol2:
You did your part the best u could. Thank you, PP. :)
mellon,
I don't know what you are talking about. :o
I dont understand the language. Can you post in english? :roll:
On second thought.... Dont. I am busy as such.
Good for you,Shekhar,and even for us! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekhar
Today's 'Dhina Thanthi' had an article on 'Surrogate mothers' in 'Thinamum oru thagaval' column. Here is the summary-
The ratio of childless couples to others in India is as high as 1:6.
The basic qualifications for a surrogate are- She should be married and should have atleast 1 or 2 children of her own by 'natural' delivery. Should be betwen 25-30 years of age and should be in good health.
For the lady to be a surrogate, she should consent wholly and should also have support from her husband and near-family.
The genuine couples and the surrogate are required to execute an agreement in front of the lawyer.
The identity of the 'real' couples is kept as a close-guarded secret to the surrogate and vice-versa.
Surrogates get a monthly payment of Rs 1500 and Rs 50k on delivery.
She is not allowed to even look at the face of the new-born. The new-born is immediately handed over to the 'real' parents.
Scorpio, that's exactly the gist of the Anantha Vikadan article which stirred me by its saddening implications to start this thread. Did Thanthi copy Vikadan's article? :wink:
PP Ma'm,
Possible. Dhina Thanthi is not a very honest newspaper and many of its articles ( especially ones in its supplements) are all lifted without due credits. Somehow, the pre-condition that the surrogate should be married and should have atleast a child of herself offered me some solace that poor people will not 'use' their unmarried daughters into this 'profession'. With a child already hers, the surrogate may also not miss the new born 'entirely' as opposed to first time mothers who are foced to 'let out' their wombs.
Scorpio, the AV article carried interviews with some surrogate mothers. One was a widow who has been brought away to the city unknown to the relatives to finish this clandestine assignment according to her confession. All the women accepted this for money(Rs.50,000!).
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:Quote:
Originally Posted by pavalamani pragasam
huh !! Where did altruism, compassion and all the blahblahs(not the bugs bunny :P ) go? :roll:Quote:
All the women accepted this for money(Rs.50,000!).
I read an interesting matter on the net during the week end regarding surrogacy. All these days not being able to have an issue has been an issue for gay couples and now with surrogacy they say that they do not have to worry about it any more. :twisted: Surrogacy is just another form of degrading human and moral values in the name of altruism and compassion and good will !!! :x
Display of human values at its worst, what more can I say??? :shock:
You women always crib and cry on everything.
Look at this way... Can a man ever get an opportunity to earn money like this?? :lol: :lol:
(Scorpio.. Sorry!!... :oops: )
Roshan,you too! :roll: :cry: :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Roshan
I was just trying to be a bit safe coz, I have seen your response to raghu when he once said "I have a family, responsibilities blahblah.." :lol:
In this week's issue of Tamil weekly "Anada Vikadan" I enjoyed reading an article on Indian womanhood written by Thamizaruvi Maniyan under the title, "Oorukku nallathu solvEn". A very good dissertation on the esteem for motherhood in India with ample examples and quotes. It is heartening to read such wonderful articles in the traditionally family magazine retaining its old glory amidst its recent temptation to compromise its standard in its fight for survival in today's rat race.
This week Thamizaruvi Maniyan in his column, "oorukku nallathu solvEn" speaks about marriage & its value with wonderful examples. An excellent column with brilliant explanations! Thank you Ananda Vikadan!
Once again Thamizaruvi MaNiyan has given a wonderful article this week in his column in Ananda Vikadan. His article is worth its weight in gold! Thanks, AV!
Thanks for the update PP, I'll go through the article asap. Thanks :)
Hi all,Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiganes
New here, doing a search at google about some movie review,
landed at forum hub and all these days I was just browsing
the tamil movie section. Since there were not many posts there
today, peeked in here and found the topics very interesting,
I do feel at a loss because I am not good at expressing myself,
further, my vocabulary is even worse. I wish I can bring up
my children to be as good as you guys. Just wanted to
say.....the topics and discussions here are very nice and
very helpful. It feels great to be reading your posts.
Further, request Jaiganes to please give the name
of the documentary of the discovery channel mentioned in
the above quote. I would like to watch it if possible.
Thanks.
Regards
Further, we just had a baby girl 3 months back, I was also
looking for some good parenting sites, there are many
very easy to find thru search engines, I thought,
asking you guys, I can get to know a few of the best ones.
Shall appreciate your information. Thanks.
Regards.
-deleted-
Here is an editorial from last week's "The Times of India":
"Fertility Rites
Why India is not worried about rising infertility worldwide
Making babies naturally has never been more difficult. Why? Because we're sitting on an 'infertility time bomb', warn experts who met recently in Copenhagen at a European Ssssociety of Human Reproduction and Embryology (ESHRE) conference. One in six couples worldwide has some kind of infertility problem and the ratio could soon rise to one in three. The problem afflicts male andd female partners in equal measure. This is the obverse of the Malthusian doomsday scenario. The 18th century economist projected that a geometric growth in human population would eventually outstrip agricultural and economic production. However, advanced tecchnologgy and improved healthcare proved him wrong. The ESHRE disclosures, however, are alarming for ccompletely different reasons. Going by recent trends, especially in Western Europe and Sscandinavia, it seems that greater economic independence and higher standards of livvving are not conducive for procreation. Infertility is set to double in Europe in the next 10 years, warns Bill Ledger from Sheffield zuniversity and male infertility worldwide could rise faster because both quality and quantity of sperm are on the decline.
Decclining fertility rates - in rich and poor countries- are being attributed to any of the following reasons. Stress, smoking, obesity, malnutrition, women postponing marriage and motherhood because of inflexible working hours and career aspirations, sexually transmitted infections like chlamydia, drug or alcohol dependency, psychological factors and exposure to radiation and chemicals like pesticides. That's a huge basket of reasons and so affects a large swathe of the world's population, impacting every ecconomic group. Aaageing population and sharply declining birth rates are worrying Europe and the US. National health schemes of some countries are including the right to assisted reproduction. Denmark and Iceland provide generous paternity schemes that include paid long leave and other incentives. India, with a one billion plus population however, is not sweating- yet. With an estimated 35% of its total population under 15 years of age, Indian youth is set to dominate the world. Interestingly, China will soon experience the effects of the one-cchild norm that restricted family numbers and skewed gender ratio for more than two decades. All's well that ends well. By default we will soon find ourselves reaping the benefit of multiplying like rabbits."
I just watched the SunTv programme, Achamillai-achamillai, where we had this lady called Karpagham who had handed over her 16 day old baby to another lady, called Marimah.
Did anyone out there watch this particular programme????? It raised quite a lot of questions for me on whole families appearing on this programme, despite the risk of legal actions. What are some of your comments, please????
PP - I hope you don't mind me writing my query on this issue, please! :D
The people in charge of the mega serials & all soaps expect their viewers to put aside their reasoning faculty. :evil: Only sobs & tears, without rhyme or reason! :evil: Quite a lot can see through the producers' treacherous intentions of working on the waterworks of weaklings without any proper, decent self-respect! :twisted: How do so many millions stay hooked to all the idiocies is something I still can't comprehend! :twisted:
This was a talk show hosted by actress Lakshmi who has your everyday Muthu, Samy or in this case Karpagham as her guests to wash their dirty linen in public.
This particular case was fascinating in the sense that it takes a dig at covert sales of babies by the birth mother to the adoptive mother. The only problem that went awry was when the father of the baby came to know and demanded for his return!! And mind you, after 3 years too!!
A dispute of this sort shown on national tv, leaves the parents involved wide open for prosecution, doesn't it????? Also, to me, it raised the lack of awareness of contraception amongst Indian slum-dwellers, which is where these women were from.
I find this thread really nice to share one’s thoughts… My close friend (though she could have had her own baby ) had adopted a girl from Orphanage and she is 7 years old… Doing extremely well.. The kid has become part and parcel of the family and dear dear to all…. Ofcourse , the kid does not know the truth.. Now my friend is really worried as to WHETHER SHE NEEDS TO REVEAL THE TRUTH SOMETIME IN LIFE ?? If YES, BY WHEN AND AT WHAT AGE ??
This issue has been worrying my friend of late….
Can someone come up with a wiser suggestion on how to deal with such a situation…..as it is a very sensitive issue….
She is worried on the consequences… how the kid will react once she comes to know the truth…
One thing is for sure... Its not going to be an easy task to reveal ....
Probably those Dfers who had already adopted earlier… can bring in their best suggestion…
Looking forward…
In all discretion the parents may themselves forget the child is an adopted one. A little amount of such self-deceit shall do a lot of good. There is no telling what the temperament of the child is, how sensitive/possessive he/she is. Why take the risk & cause trauma & pangs all round? The damages could be irreparable. Even if the child finds out the truth at any stage from an outsider the parents will be right to lie about it & maintain him/her to be their natural child. What has the great sage Thiruvalluvar said about 'truth'?: "vaaymai enappaduvathu yaathenin yaathonRum theethilaathathu solal".
Someone who has the big heart to adopt a child should be given the best moral support & appreciation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Follow sushmita sen's lead in this matterQuote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji