Violence against women

Surya wrote:

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After all, in our Hindu Sashtras, it's said a town where there is no temple, and where woman suffer is bound to founder sooner of later.

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Nice to have all these shastras, qurans, bibles saying nice things. But all this amounts to nothing as long as men hold reins in the society. What is needed now is to reform our society, our country and create an equal opportunity environment for all. Discrmination and intimidation of all kind should go and women should get equal wages, even in the farm labour sector. What we have achieved in big cities like Bangalore must reach the last village. Till then violence against women and their oppression will continue. I read in this thread of some concerns that women liberated will drop all cultural values and will automatically become western. I do not approve that argument . This argument undermines the intelligence of women and their concern for our culture. Our culture is whatever it is because women have been nurturing it. Just look back and you will realise that this culture would not have survived were it not for the women who run the family in the most difficult of circumstances. Usually it is the men in the family who philander around and cause cultural degradation and not the other way.

It is of no use to glorify woman as Shakthi,Durga,Lakshmi etc and then beat them up :x

.It is easy to make big speeches,but a more practical solution will be to consider women as human as men are and equal to us.So we understand each other and their concerns and feelings.Also each and every one taking a pledge to treat our women well and respect their dignity will go a long way. :)

So the next time your wife annoys you,take a deep breath,suppress the temptation to shout and count till 100[which I frequently practice and not preach alone] :lol: :lol: :lol:

jaiganes,
we r not suggesting tat all women who become liberated will go western and drop their cultural values.....and u r no doubt rite in saying tat our culture had survived all these decades only bcos of the women......BUT we all hav surely noticed tat there is a notable deterioration of our culture among majority of the present gen. girls/women (esp. in the metro cities, which hav a high degree of western influence) who openly say tat they want to be nothing like the previous gen. women who were traditionally-oriented and 'conservative'....it is these women who r misled w/ the wrong idea tat if they break free of our culture and values and adopt even the worst of the West, their sex can come forward in our society! But tat's not necessarily true of course!
So I meant to quote the saying "open ur arms to change if u will, but don't let go of ur values."

Dear lordstanher,
I agree! but compared to the number of men having such dreams of aping western culture and disregard for our culture , the number you are referring to is very very less. Also such people (male/female) exist more in the upper class, the lower class people are hard pressed for earning one square meal a day and it has always been the middle class which has been carrying on with all this talk about values, culture etc., If you walk back centuries, you will find the same thing with civilizations. So as i agree with you on that count, I also wish to remind you that a superior culture would be one that is more humane and caring in its approach. The evaluation has to be done by actions of the people who follow the culture and as far that is concerned, we Indians are a big zero as women in our country are among one of the worst oppressed, although slightly better than some other nations. Domestic violence by an abusive husband is tolerated and sometimes even glorified in media and social circles. Insensitivity has become the hallmark of Indian male, while suicidal patience has become the sole propriety of Indian woman. It is a shameful situation and still people cannot tolerate a woman driving a car or a woman in office.Even normal educated men exhibit their archaic chauvinism in all ways imaginable. They are stopped short only by a little fear of law they have(Thank God for that). In villages, situation is even more terrifying. If big cities have more western influence and villages are free of that, then it is safer for women in big cities. Atleast they wont be paraded naked and gangraped by sarpanches and upper caste people! :banghead: So look around and see the bright young kids in big cities. There is a good chance that they will not grow up to be wife beaters in the future. How confident are you about the chances of the same for children brought up in villages ?

"Insensitivity has become the hallmark of Indian male, while suicidal patience has become the sole propriety of Indian woman. "

No truer words have been spoken better than what you have written!

Very sad but TRUE! :cry:

It is no use blaming foreign culture.Discrimination against women always existed in our society.We have to change from within.A woman has her right to dignity whether she wears a saree or jeans and T-shirt.

I was shocked to hear an incident where,Symbiosis,Pune's major management institute,issued a dress code for girls following the rape of a student in the campus premises.What sort of a message are they trying to convey? :x This is like raping the rape victim again :evil: :evil: :evil: .

As some one pointed out early in this thread,child and women trafficking is rampant in our society.My own state,Kerala,which takes pride about being a well educated society is no different :( .In Kerala's Malappuram and Calicut districts,"Arabikkalyanam"[the ptactice where young girls if 13 or 14 are sold to rich Arabians in marriage] is common.Sometimes these parents ask the school teachers to make their daughters fail in school because they fear that once these kids are out of school it will be difficult to find a groom for them! :?

Kerala has a healthy ratio of 1058 females to 1000 males. National average is 927, which is very low! :(
Atleast women are not getting killed/maimed/raped and abused there! Cultural guardians should first get the social situation civilized, then we can comfortably sit down and lay all rules to either sexes.

Another irritating aspect is the role of media like cinema in promoting misogynist tendencies among young men. How many incidents have we heard/seen in the recent times, when an unrequited love resulted in throwing acid or murder of the lady involved. Definitely men involved were not some illiterate villagers, they were college going youth who are having skewed up and romanticised view about love, affection etc., which is put in their heads by cinemas and TV serials. In this case exposure to indian media itself is so harmful(western media is more mature when it is handling Love). This idea has been taken to extreme and the success of movies like "Kaadhal Kondein" and "Manmadhan" only highlights this point. This is doubly tragic for women because they give up their love due to compulsions from family, only to be bathed in an idiot's Acid bottle. :cry:

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Originally Posted by jaiganes

Kerala has a healthy ratio of 1058 females to 1000 males. National average is 927, which is very low! :(
Atleast women are not getting killed/maimed/raped

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Jaiganes,your ignorance is shocking.The male female ratio is fast changing in Kerala.The statistics is not at all dependable as more than two million Keralites live in Gulf countries and many more in other countries and states.Many of these people are missed out and most of them are men.For example I my name is not included in the voters list,but my wife's is.

Women are indeed getting killed,maimed and raped.You refer any malayalam newspaper for a day and tell me whether there aren't many such news of women committing suicide,being killed,raped and harrassed for dowry.Human character is almost the same everywhere,atleast in different states of India.

By the way do you know that women do not go out alone after 6 pm in Kerala?You travel thorough out the state and tell me how many women you can see after 6 on govt or private buses.

blahblah,
just now discussed your militant kerala patriotism with sonu gopi over mail, unfortunately u have rubbished kerala now :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

But truth is truth and it sticks out a mile. :banghead: :banghead:

Blahblah,

Beg to differ but the situation of Kerala women are far better than that in other parts of India. The fact that so many rape and abuse cases are getting reported itself is a proof for that. Atleast parents and the society are standing with their daughters and fighting.

Kerala women are better educated than their male counterparts and the percentage of employment is very high amound kerala women.

I am not at all suggesting everything is good and bright but definitely far far better.

About the sex ratio thing. Though you have a point I dont think that sex ratio among NRKs is huge enough to effect the sex ratio of the state. At least I am sure that girl child is not killed or abused for the reason that she is a girl by their parents or family.

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Originally Posted by Sandeep

Blahblah,

Beg to differ but the situation of Kerala women are far better than that in other parts of India. The fact that so many rape and abuse cases are getting reported itself is a proof for that. Atleast parents and the society are standing with their daughters and fighting.

Kerala women are better educated than their male counterparts and the percentage of employment is very high amound kerala women.

I am not at all suggesting everything is good and bright but definitely far far better.

About the sex ratio thing. Though you have a point I dont think that sex ratio among NRKs is huge enough to effect the sex ratio of the state. At least I am sure that girl child is not killed or abused for the reason that she is a girl by their parents or family.

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Why are we such hypocrites and denying what are only facts? :x

I am sure too the women in Kerala fare better than the poor souls in other states.Just to consider you arguments,I agree that they have better education than men.And jobs too-right.

The main reason is that the Kerala women themselves led a silent revolution in the 80's and 90's when they took up the noble profession of nursing which was till then looked upon with disgust.In almost every field including sports,they are better than us[applicable only to Kerala].

But none of these happened because their men were kind to them or respected their dignity in general as a society.Instead women in Kerala despite all their success,is still not allowed the socil freedom they deserve. :x

About the sex ratio.What are you proud of?How do you explain an adult sex ratio of 1058 and a child sex ratio 963 and their difference?Any idiot can see that something is amiss.Where did all the girls go?Aren't they simply being born?How can you be sure Sir,there isn't female infanticide in Kerala? :evil:

I dont know the ratios nor do I have proves for anything but I have felt that kerala women are doing better.

May be the environments we have seen are different. May be what I have seen around me cannot be generalised on to the whole of Kerala.

Hey guys!
I am not a keralite!
Whatever the statistics may or may not say, Kerala has one of the very few matriarchical social systems in India. That much I know. Can anyone of you explain to rest of the people what happened to that society or how things function in a matriarchical society. The only other matriarchical society in India that comes to my mind is in Meghalaya. But the status of women is better in both places. I am yet to come across a malayalee male who treats his wife or daughters badly. Explain this and we have a solution to this problem. Plus Kerala and Thamizh Nadu were one of the early states to enact legislations ensuring rights to family property for women. That too can explain something that will set things right on an Indian level.

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Originally Posted by jaiganes

Can anyone of you explain to rest of the people what happened to that society or how things function in a matriarchical society.

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Matriarchical society is still strong in Kerala. But legally it stopped to exist since 1976. My community follow matriatchical society. I carry my mothers family name and not my father's.

So its simple if you have a girl child you family will continue. Old times even property was like that. You get property from your mothers family not your fathers. But as I said now legally this is not valid. So ,though I am a member of my mothers family, since I was born after 1976 I dont have legal rights on the family.

Sandeep,

Any idea why the system was not legally made valid?

I cannot even think how our society would be if we all had initials of our moms. ( like M.Kumaran, s/o Mahalakshmi 8)

[quote="Sandeep"]

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Originally Posted by jaiganes

Matriarchical society is still strong in Kerala. But legally it stopped to exist since 1976. My community follow matriatchical society. I carry my mothers family name and not my father's.
So its simple if you have a girl child you family will continue. Old times even property was like that. You get property from your mothers family not your fathers. But as I said now legally this is not valid. So ,though I am a member of my mothers family, since I was born after 1976 I dont have legal rights on the family.

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Strange that we can find this society in Malaysia too, one the southern states practice this and it originates from Indonesia....perhaps the Indian kingdom brought it over to Indonesia and subsequently to M'sia.

Dont know I think as part of Unification of law.

You dont keep you mothers name but her family name.

More on the system.

Women retain thier maiden name even after marraige because even after marraige they dont become part of husbands family.

[quote="NM"]

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Originally Posted by Sandeep

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Originally Posted by jaiganes

Matriarchical society is still strong in Kerala. But legally it stopped to exist since 1976. My community follow matriatchical society. I carry my mothers family name and not my father's.
So its simple if you have a girl child you family will continue. Old times even property was like that. You get property from your mothers family not your fathers. But as I said now legally this is not valid. So ,though I am a member of my mothers family, since I was born after 1976 I dont have legal rights on the family.

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Strange that we can find this society in Malaysia too, one the southern states practice this and it originates from Indonesia....perhaps the Indian kingdom brought it over to Indonesia and subsequently to M'sia.

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Yes, NM we find this practised widely in the State of Negri Sembilan (9 principilities makes the state of N. Sembilan) - they are ppl of Minangkabau origin from Bukit Tinggi, Sumatra - Indonesia.

I was really amazed when I see the similarities of my origin with that of my Minangkabau friends here in Malaysia. :D

Sonu Gopi :wink:

sonu gopi wrote:

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Yes, NM we find this practised widely in the State of Negri Sembilan (9 principilities makes the state of N. Sembilan) - they are ppl of Minangkabau origin from Bukit Tinggi, Sumatra - Indonesia.

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Interesting to know this. Tell me what is the state of men(the non dominant sex) over there? If it is something better compared to the state of women in patriarchical societies, then it is something that ppl in general can adopt and improve their social indicators. :wink:

JG:
I remember reading that the females are made heir to properties and that females set the rules and they are considered the head of the household...

Sonu Gopi....perhaps you have more info on that one?? :wink:

Yesterday in the news, I came across two ghastly items.

1. A woman in Andhra Pradesh was made to walk on fire to prove her chastity :(
2. In North India, a village panchayat annulled/cancelled a love marriage because they belonged to different sub-castes! :cry: :cry:

Now we are supposed to be in 21st century.. I am ashamed.

Jaiganes...
does it really happen in this day and age??? very embarassed to hear that!! :oops: :oops:

I guess it happens only in India! :(
Good that you are 1000 KM from this holy land!!

I really thought India has improved, you know, in terms of child slavery and discriminations against women and I thought the caste system was dying....i must be really ignorant..!! :oops: :oops:

I agree w/ the earlier statements tat Tamil/Malyalam movies/serials actually glorify abuse/violence against women! And more often than not, they usually depict traditionally-clad women in vulgar ways!
I've heard of parents verbally censoring English movies, claiming tat they r "vulgar" etc. etc...
But my qsn. to our 'conservative' society is how come no-one bothers to raise their voice against Indian movies tat blatantantly depict harassing/molesting women and robbing them of the 'pure' image tat Indian women r known for, even in the so-called romantic song and dance sequences in our films, where the heroine- more often than not- clad in a Saree, and tat too provocatively, dances seductively in the rain......there goes the hero fondling/kissing her on all the 'exposed' areas, even pulling off her Saree (when married couples can't walk just holding hands in public!) and there goes ur 'tradition-bound' audience (mostly the male) enthusiastically approving and applauding all this on-screen display of kamasutra! Cute!
Not only the songs....I've heard tat in most Indian cinema theatres, whenever they see even a brief scene where a woman's Saree pallu slips & falls even accidentally, the male audience goes clapping/jeering/whistling.......worse still, I've heard of them throwing coins when a rape scene is shown! So much for maintaining our 'culture' & 'values', huh?!
I find it so ironic tat in a country w/ 2,000,000 gods (inc. female deities!), ppl. r still able to make films depicting women as cheap, alluring objects and get away w/ it! Y don't we take a look at our own society, instead of incessantly criticising Western movies??!!

NM wrote

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i must be really ignorant

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After all that sparring in the jokes and other section, now you agreee!!!.
Jokes apart, India has indeed improved, bcoz, five to six years ago incidents like these would have gone unnoticed. Now media(news) is projecting such stories and literate people are showing semblance of waking up. So all is not bad. But the situation is not rosy either.
Lordstanher wrote:

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Y don't we take a look at our own society, instead of incessantly criticising Western movies

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Yes. That is the plea for everyone. Lets not blame western influence for everything . What we need is a social reform that will not eject out the essence of ancient culture, just repair/remove that is not correct and we don't want a social revolution that will affect stability either. I guess, our human resources development minister Shri. Arjun Singh is doing something in this regard.

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Originally Posted by jaiganes

NM wrote

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i must be really ignorant

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After all that sparring in the jokes and other section, now you agreee!!!.

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:lol: :lol: :lol: U got me there!!
Anyway, yep, agree with you, India is improving now and I think, it will be a better place for Indians worldwide to consider living in near future...

Hi..
FRANKLY gAYATHRI, IF THE daughter inlaw u referred will NOT use misuse the freedom thats given to her, she has every right in the world to sie next to her MIL...pls dot mistake me...i'e seen some daughter-in-laws (My amma's friends' mother is being illtreated) illtreat their MIL to the extent that I cant desrcibe it here..

But, if DIL is good and considering the age of DIL u referred, this is the age to live to the fullest and enjoy life..after all dont we women deserve it???..
In one line, I will say the DIL should DO WHAT SHE LIKES..Iam sure we women know our limits!!!!!

May be I would say you should talk to the DIL directly ....

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Originally Posted by Mira24

Hi..
In one line, I will say the DIL should DO WHAT SHE LIKES..Iam sure we women know our limits!!!!!

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Mira ... Your post is in the wrong thread. It should have been in the "A joke per day.." thread. Sure it would have been the joke of the day.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Shekhar...When u knew to criticise it, u should have known to explain it too....iam sure u didnt understand what I said...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Of course we do know our limits and we need not prove it with anyone..i onlt meant that the Daughter in Law (I donno what on earth u understood by DIL) deserves next to the MIL..

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Originally Posted by lordstanher

tat too provocatively, dances seductively in the rain......there goes the hero fondling/kissing her on all the 'exposed' areas, even pulling off her Saree (when married couples can't walk just holding hands in public!) and there goes ur 'tradition-bound' audience (mostly the male) enthusiastically approving and applauding all this on-screen display of kamasutra! Cute!
Not only the songs....I've heard tat in most Indian cinema theatres, whenever they see even a brief scene where a woman's Saree pallu slips & falls even accidentally, the male audience goes clapping/jeering/whistling......"

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I agree with this for sure...how come we follow such strict rules at home but not outside it? if you see the males who whistles for such scenes would normally belong to 3rd class C Grade audience type...but they always manage to quiten the decent middle-class people...is that the middle-class weakness?

Mira wrote

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is that the middle-class weakness?

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No that's the trait of the species!, They are unheard(except in letters to the editor section of the hindu ;-)), unseen(invisible). They are consumers of the society, silently consuming everything good or bad.

Coming back to violence against women, DIL - MIL fight is an internal phenomenon, it is one woman against another and IMO, it is a level playing field. But violence against women perpetrated by the brutal sex (I wouldn't call men who beat up women as the stronger sex) is condemnable and sadly it has silent consent from the society. Wife beaters are rarely arrested and in most of the cases, the affected person is advised not to complain for the sake of success of the institution and security of any kids involved. The law must be changed and victims of abuse by spouses must be guaranteed full protection by police and support by the government. And all wife beaters must be banned from entering into a legal wedlock again, thereby preventing such silent crimes from being perpetrated.

I agree with it..thats the trait...Middle-class, highest consumer section but silent on all important issues..

sadly the ones who shape India's future are worthless actors(calling themselves superstar, ultimate star, illay thalapathi when they are not even ACTORS!!!!!!!), rowdies, third-class C Grade Cinema Audience and illiterate politicians like Laloo (loose lollu)...

And still we have not figured out to a way change it!!!!!!!!! No wonder so many hate to llive in India..I guess thats the tactics used by these actors and politicians who depend largely on illiterate audience...

Very sad and depressing depsite of me tryin to come over it!!!!

Thanks,
Charu.

*Sorry I'm not able to revert too promptly/often in these threads....neways....

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Originally Posted by jaiganes

What we need is a social reform that will not eject out the essence of ancient culture, just repair/remove that is not correct and we don't want a social revolution that will affect stability either.

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Tat exactly is wat even I'd said earlier in this thread! But tat exactly is wat is not happening in the present society, is it? :)
And tat's y I'd expressed my concern abt the increasing number of women in our cities who r giving up most of the valuable aspects of our culture/values in the name of 'independence' or 'liberation', and u'll know wat I was talking abt if u know abt wat college girls- and even housewives- in most of the cities r getting into nowadays, right from smoking/drinking to pornography/illicit sex. :cry:
And u mite be rite in dismissing this, saying tat compared to the men aping western culture, the number of such women is currently very less, but we may not know abt wat mite happen further on....?
I know I mite offend many here and sound very biased but I personally believe tat the previous generations of women in our country were definitely better than the present (and maybe future) ones, for our culture is believed to've been existant for all these decades mainly bcos of the former, esp. the middle class women. And of course its not as if women of those times never worked in jobs or ventured out of the houses at all just bcos of their traditional outlook.....IMO, it was those women tat cud truly be regarded as the ideal women of not just their time but ne time! And its a pity tat most of the men of their time never realised the value of such women & seldom gave them the respect tat they were truly worthy of!
I'm not sure if men r going to change overall for the better, but I suspect tat the women r sadly never going to be the same again, barring a small fraction of them, in cities or even otherwise!
The thot tat we've lost such a precious wealth in our society really makes me depressed sumtimes..... :cry:

When MIL and DIL fight who is getting harassed.

I think it is the poor husband. This is violence against men. :roll:

Women are harassed all over the world. They are harassed in all forms starting from sex to kitchen work. ( there are exceptions)
Infact few individuals dare to kill women after sex. I am aware of one seriel killer who killed about 300 women after sex.
Horrible world this is!!!
It is also devastating to know the statistics that more women suffer from clinical depression than men. Why is all this emotional tortures reserved only for women???? Do we want our beloved mom or wife to suffer from depression?? I just had depression for just two days and felt how cruel it is to suffer from depression. The most terrible things in this world are the homicides and cold blooded cruelties. (I am not scared when i see the dead bodies of poor victims, but surely scared when seeing the criminals like seriel killers who commit heinous unbelievable crimes)

men and women are human beings. dats it. no one is superior or inferior.

Violence against women need not be physical all times. I had few experiences in my workplaces which were really disturbing. Will share one of them now.

There used to be a person in my ex-workplace. He was a senior both in position and experience. He used to make unnecessary comments about the sari, chappals, jasmine on the hair etc etc. He used to say how fat his wife had become of late and how people like me manage both home and career skilfully :cry: and all nonsense stuff. Wouldn't spare us even in the cafeteria asking the females to eat well and take care of our health ( as though it matters to him :shock: ). He would carefully mouth words which will convey his intentions but are not obscene or sensual. No need to say about his penetrating stares which made working- along, hell, literally.

He was so close to the highest boss and I was the only female among Managers in the organization and I had to interact with this person for official matters. Rules on workplace harassment were not laid emphatically as they are now. There used to be no other way but to endure this guy and avoid him whenever possible.

Lucky enough, I got offer from another place and moved on. But, can't help but feel sorry for other females working with that pervert! Yuck!

In police department sexual harassments are more. I know one women who is wife of a gazetted government officer and joined constable job. She faced harssments from many police men including SI in her station.

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Originally Posted by son

Women are harassed all over the world. They are harassed in all forms starting from sex to kitchen work. ( there are exceptions)
Infact few individuals dare to kill women after sex. I am aware of one seriel killer who killed about 300 women after sex.
Horrible world this is!!!
It is also devastating to know the statistics that more women suffer from clinical depression than men. Why is all this emotional tortures reserved only for women???? Do we want our beloved mom or wife to suffer from depression?? I just had depression for just two days and felt how cruel it is to suffer from depression. The most terrible things in this world are the homicides and cold blooded cruelties. (I am not scared when i see the dead bodies of poor victims, but surely scared when seeing the criminals like seriel killers who commit heinous unbelievable crimes)

men and women are human beings. dats it. no one is superior or inferior.

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I think even devils do not behave so horribily.