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vijay, cheap (!necessarily=) Bad? Logically speaking, and only logically speaking, how does cheap preclude good? :-)
To put it another way, if something is monetarily valued < $100, does it mean it is "not of good quality"?
P.S: I make no reference to this particular case and I probably see what you mean, and probably concur, too but I think one cannot hold something's cost as an indicator of its intrinisic value :-)
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boss, Anniyanakkum Bombay Dreamsukkum vithyasam irukku,.......and wat is this Mr.Neutral fan (certified by Maddy)???? naa yaara nallavangannu sonnalum avangala ungalakku pidikaadha??? yen indha kola veri...... :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiganes
boss, u guys are missing the point..........HJ is not creating a new trend of his own......he is following ARR's style of music and doing some routine rythms/patterns........thats wat we have to say here.....browse, 5 pages b4 this, and u'll find how many times i have posted or my revered neutral fan has posted......
jaiganes, I think what vijay means is that the rhythms are commonplace and nothing to write home about in terms of innovativeness etc. But that just means HJ is a run-of-the-mill composer who doesnt contribute to the advancement of the TFM paradigm. But, I see your point - it might still well suit the particular song and hence, be called good in that respect. This also brings another question - if you use a commercially-available loop, then are you a useless or cheap or ordinary composer and the song you composed nothing to write home about and plain not good? Because if using a $100-keyboard-provided-rhythm makes your song ordinary, then using a , maybe, $1m loop implies the same?
Ah! I dont want to go where that discussion would lead to :-)
Look how they have ex-aggregated ? $100 kila pona harmonium potti thaan kidaikum and that doesn’t have an inbuilt rhythm stored.Quote:
Thats the rhythm that comes inbuilt with those cheap $100 entry-level keyboards
I take pride to honour Vijayr as a neutral music lover, be it anytopic for that matter. There are many neutral/knowledgeable hubbers here didn’t even care to drop a pill at several occasions. Have you seen any HC appreciating VS(forget ARR) in that league. Never!
JaiG if you are hell-bent to ridicule MR deceptively then Vijayr seams much sensible to criticize HJ/KSR with his rational points. Many would bestow an affirmative nod for this.
But I have to admit that he has been bit harsh this time never b4.
[/tscii]
maddy, jaiganes also didnt say that HJ is a trend-setter etc. He just said the rhythms in that song are good, which is his opinion. Just because they are common place or routine or cheap doesnt preclude them being good - that is simple logic and thats the point I had. In general,maybe you could say, the song goes in one direction and the rhythm doesnt suit the song/situation at all hence it is bad. That is sensible. You can also say that the beat is routine therefore the composer is not great as he is using routine patterns. But you cannot say that the beats are routine hence the song is bad or the rhythm is bad for the song. That is not logical at all.Puriyudha? I am not defending HJ here, I am merely defending the entity called logic :-)
Btw, where is this KSR criticism going on ( KSR means KS Ravikumar right)? I'd like to shred that pervert to pieces but if vijay has stuck his guns on him , I guess the job must have been done by now - where may I see the mortal remains?
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Moderator's Note: Jaiganesh, we DO NOT condone personal abuse. Please edit your posts made above.
When is HJ's next album releasing? Bheema? July Kaatril? Pachchai KiLi Muththu charam? Seems like a good year ahead for HJ fans.
HJ is here to stay, for sure. It seems his popularity in TN is at its peak now. His speciality is packaging his songs well. They are instantly catchy although they may lack depth.
Thanks NOV for dropping in!
U can live up with your own misleading assumptions. If thats the real intention, V fans could have mocked & torn HJ (sainikodu telugu) into pieces. Sincerely we are happy to see the crop of upcoming MD's from ARR's camp in someway associated with his earlier combo Dir Asst/Prodn House. GVP tho a nephew of ARR has worked with several other MD's before making his debut in Veyil (Humko Maalum Thaa) Do you know HJ much acclaimed Vaseegara was robbed from ARR's stock ?Quote:
They first try to ridicule him and diminish him(HJ), failing which they say he is not even a composer.
The thing I would like to attribute ARR's success is that he always treated the current trend as his competitor and not the MD. He brings his innovation into different genres, orchestration, new talents to kill the existing trend set by him and ruthlessly followed by others.
>>Dign!
It is we brand Vijayr as a neutral hubber and he never self-proclaimed it anytime. Infact, He rebut it several times
Look what made me to say this
End Dign<<
PKMC and Unnale Unnale are the two immediately expected audios by mid-november, since the movie release date is 25th Dec. But till now, there is no official info. Indiaglitz carried preview of PKMC..Quote:
Originally Posted by Music4Ever
Neutral sounds oh-so-ajith-in-varalaaru-the-dancer-role to me - No wonder vijay recoils at being called so :-)
Rajdes, enna aachchu? :-) I didnt say its bad BECAUSE its cheap. I think you made that link. I just said it sounded like some inbuilt rhythm off of those beginner level keyboards which anyone has access to. I would understand if an 8-year old composed that songQuote:
Originally Posted by rajdes
Regarding "intrinsic value" vs cost and so on thats a different ecnomics/ethics discussion altogether. Needless to say, I didnt have all that in mind when I commented about HJ's song :-)
Maybe if you define "intrinsic value" in this context and mention the intrinsic value of what(the instrument or the composition?) you are talking about, then I can throw further my 2 cents. For instance, I think the quality of a cheap keyboard is inferior in the sense as to the limited options, primitive rhythm patterns, and the unsophisticated tones it offers, when compared with the many options of more expensive models. If you are talking about the rhythm pattern itself in the context of intrinsic value or quality, there is no cheap or costly here, just good or bad, which is subjective.The rhythm pattern isnt "bad" because its produced from a cheap keyboard(although keyboard whizs will say the percussion sounds are better or more sophisticated/authentic from an expensive synth), but because there is no value addition from the side of the composer. Like I said, a kid fiddling with his toy keyboard could have come up with that. I meant it in that sense, hope its a little clear.
Rajdes, whats the difference between those 2 statements above? If the beats are routine than you can say the composer is not great, agreed. But if the beats are routine I can also say the rhythm is "bad" in the sense its unimaginative or run-of-the-mill. A more imaginative rhythm could have been composed in its place is my point. Or if you take the rhythm alone, there is nothing to rave about. And since jaiganes specifically referred to the rhythm alone(he picked that out from the rest of the song) as good, I made that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdes
and regarding HJ's music, its not as if I hate everything he does and attribute everything he does to luck as Mr. Jaiganes as exaggerated in his post. I like songs from some of his earlier works like Leysa Leysa, Minnale, Kaakka Kaakka and so on. But Anniyan/Ghajni/VV didnt quite live up to the hype musically, of course in my opinion. Plus its also a fact (as confessed by HJ himself during Anniyan when its pre-release sales was lukewarm) that his audio sales does pick up after the movie's release especially if the movie/song picturization does well. So even commercially speaking, he hasnt been blazing the charts irrespective of his movies' success. In fact he depends heavily on it. Like I mentioned earlier Thotti Jaya is an example of what happens to his audio sales when the movie doesnt do well. Not that I care too much about sales quantity and stuff like that while judging an album for myself, but just to mention the reality to jaiganes.
I do check out every album of his.
Vijayr,
Tell me one album that rocked the charts post-2000 even if the movie bombed. [There are exceptions like Boys where the music was hit while movie bombed and ThirudaThirudi and Chithiram pesuthadi where One song becoming hit made the movie run to packed houses]. But generally That is scenario here or north everywhere, the music picks up only if the movie is hit otherwise it sinks without a trace.
This is the case for all MD's including IR and ARR. So wats the point in digging only at HJ for this reason.Quote:
So even commercially speaking, he hasnt been blazing the charts irrespective of his movies' success. In fact he depends heavily on it.
rajasaranam, I dont quite agree with you. In addition to Boys, KaNgaLaal kaidhu sei, Ayudha ezhuthu and even the recent Sillendru oru Kaadhal all topped the charts even when the respective movies didnt fare well. SOK had pretty good sales even before the movie's release and New york/Munbe were talked about as hits. I can hardly think of any album of HJ that did well despite the movie's failure. Not that I look for commercial success personally but just to counter all those who haevily depend on the sales aspect to support HJ.
copycat sorry coffee chat w Harris
http://www.dinakaran.com/dncgibin/ku...2006/oct/22/89
http://www.dinakaran.com/dncgibin/ku...2006/oct/22/90
http://www.dinakaran.com/dncgibin/ku...2006/oct/22/91
http://www.dinakaran.com/dncgibin/ku...2006/oct/29/99
http://www.dinakaran.com/dncgibin/ku...006/oct/29/100
Its easy to say that the cassette and CD sales of X film did well, but where are you getting this info?
vijay, I dont disagree on HJ - VV, Ghajini, TJ have all been massively disappointing but last year's Gharshana was pretty good even though it was a remake of Kakka Kakka, there were a couple of additions which were really good. I would give him a decent-sized rope for now atleast. But yeah, not much of the rope is left. And Leysa Leysa wasnt a hit movie but the music was pretty good and a success too, I believe. To a lesser extent, the same might be said of 12B and Samurai as well. But none of it is in recent times, yes.(to quote 2/3 movies where HJ had a hit but the movie failed). Again, not that I subscribe to commercial success etc. Thats on his current status.
On the quality vs cost, I did understand what you meant, and I did mention that "I probably understand what you mean,a nd probably concur, too" :-). Point is the way you made that statement, it looked like low cost implies low quality. That had to be questioned.Secondly, I still think sometimes, a common place rhythm isn't bad. Afterall, can we invent a rhythm for *each song*? Have even IR/ARR done it? Does IR have 4000 rhythms for his 4000+ songs. Does ARR have 700 rhythms for his 700+ songs?(numbers are approximate - please feel free to correct these numbers). I am sure you can quote yourself countless groups of songs from MSV/IR/ARR where they used the same rhythm as a previous song but still came up with a equally good song. So, I do think using a pre-existing rhythm, doesnt necessarily make a song bad. See the dichotomy - it does make the MD lazy and ordinary ,especially if the rhythm in question is something you havent invented, and infact, that constitutes the difference between MSV/IR/ARR and Dhina/D Iman/other-names-i-will-not-mention - but the song can still sound good. What about MFM, where they still come up with outstanding stuff(or atleast used to) without really extending the rhythm paradigm and sticking to rhythms probably even more primitive than the $100 KeyboardS? All this is from a logical perspective again and not in reference to HJ or VV.
Also, tell me whats the difference between using a $100 keyboard rhythm, and using a $1m commerically purchased loop?
**********************
"Do you know HJ much acclaimed Vaseegara was robbed from ARR's stock ? "
It is statements like the above(not made by vijay for those who didnt read earlier posts) one reek of ARR-Devotion, nee fanaticism - I am sure someone like Rahman who makes sure he gets proper credit/moolah for every single effort of his,wouldnt have let it go just like that if this had happened.
vijay, statements like this here is probably where jaiganes has problems - and I hope we can understand that without taking stands and then ridiculing each other. Such a statement has absolutely no basis/facts to stand upon and is as ridiculous as IR fanatics' hate-mail on ARR during the early years of this forum. I'd expect a Maddy to subscribe to such statements but not vijay - not that you endorsed it but I guess in the recent years, if a similar statement erupted from IR fans, you have a reputation of tearing the concerned person down so not doing it for ARR fans definitely gives thoughts if you see what I mean - not that you need to appear impartial or unbiased , I dont think anyone even needs to be unbiased or impartial - but I am just explaining where the stands and perceptions here seem to come from as I see it.
rajdes, i strongly object to both observations made on ARR and me........at a point of time in 90's in HFM , there were 7 versions of Muqabla and u know wat was ARR's reaction to it??? he said he has complained to some music forum headed by some Rashid......so ur statement that ARR makes sure he gets money for everything he does is totally unjustified......now dont rebut saying, "no Maddy u got it wrong,this and that".....i'm not a small kid as u think and i'm not a fool.......if u want i'll give u my credentials which are no way a loosu payyan's........Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdes
"I'd expect a Maddy to subscribe to such statements but not vijay" - really hurt me........just out of respect for you, i'm controlling myself......
Vijay, i'm really sorry.......my proclaimation that u r a neutral guy has evoked so much of reaction and ppl. have started reviewing u.......i really apologise for all those statements made abt u bcos of my mistake.....
rajdes, ARR's WOHE tracks were ripped in Hindi, Tamil, Telugu Godknows.... in several Songs, BGMS, Teasers and even TV serials :banghead: Released by Sony? What did Rahman or Sony get? :roll: ARR's kitterndhu suttadha list pota it would run into volumes. venda vitrungha! And that Vaseegara's robbery is confirmed by a HCIR fan here tho there were authenticated <rumours> sources pointing it out b4. We never took it serious b4 and not even now. ARR-fans have watched HJ closely better than any ordinary listeners.
Now tell me in what way ARR/MR prodn gets compensated for HJ's atrocious lift in Sainikodu (Telugu)?
Maddy, tracked both of them here :lol: :rotfl: What's with Indian Copyright Laws?
rajdes, I have acknowledged the success HJ had in his earlier years. Iam not sure how big of a hit 12B or Leysa Leysa were but personally I liked a couple of songs in each. But Rahman has had a long history of such albums that werent done justice by the films for jokers like Kadhir and so on. And that trend has continued in even recent times, even when the overall sales seems to be down due to various factors in the audio industry. Whereas HJ has started depending more on the outcome of the movie to bail him out.
On using same rhythm or a pre-existing rhythm , it might or might not make a song "bad", which is subjective. But if someone comes and praises those songs and specifically says that the rhythm was good in them, then I'll disagree. (I have done the same with IR songs too earlier when I found the rhythm usage repetitive)
Thats what happened when jaiganes specifically mentioned the rhythm as one of the highlights of that HJ song,when it clearly wasnt for me. Rhythm was just one of the many lowlights of that song for me. He could have just said that he liked the song overall but he specifically pointed out the rthym aspect, which IMO, was trite.
"Also, tell me whats the difference between using a $100 keyboard rhythm, and using a $1m commerically purchased loop? "
Iam not sure why you are even asking me this question, if you understood my earlier posts. I said HJ used something which comes as a demo piece/add-on along with a cheap keyboard. In the sense,he used something that was quite trite or commonplace.
But to answer your question,If he had used a $1m loop,even though he wont get points for originality,at the least he would have tried to use something that was out of the ordinary or different for the song,even if he couldnt think of it himself.
Also, it does take atleast some knowledge on his part to use those sophisticated loops effectively. But here he committed a double crime-not only he used something that is already available,but he also used something that is primitive and has been used several hundred times before.
Its not that using a $100 keyboard sound is a crime per se(and thats also not what I meant earlier),but if you can use that and still come up with an imaginative piece then more power to you.
"vijay, statements like this here is probably where jaiganes has problems - and I hope we can understand that without taking stands and then ridiculing each other."
I didnt read most of that. Jaiganes had a bigger problem with my comments on the song and thats what I responded to. I dont necessarily read every post. Beyond a certain point you know which posts to choose and respond to.
"not that you endorsed it but I guess in the recent years, if a similar statement erupted from IR fans, you have a reputation of tearing the concerned person down so not doing it for ARR fans definitely gives thoughts if you see what I mean - not that you need to appear impartial or unbiased , I dont think anyone even needs to be unbiased or impartial - but I am just explaining where the stands and perceptions here seem to come from as I see it."
Come on rajdes, I dont give a damn to someone else's perceptions/opinions of whether Iam a "Neutral" or a "biased" fan. Have better things to do in life. Also, as far as I know I dont have any reputation of going after IR fans and tearing them down too, neeyave yedhaavadhu keLappi vidaadha :-) Maybe a few IR fans(including you) think that way since you have been around those threads a lot. There were a few arguments I had with them on a couple of topics I felt strongly about sometime back, thats all. You make it sound like as if I read every post of rajasaranam or other HCIRFs and go after them all the time. Not the case. It depends on which topic I feel strongly about and worthy enough to debate. Not on the MD. This HJ discussion should be proof enough. I have had similiar comments regarding YSR's music too sometime back and it was the turn of some YSR fans then to assume that I was specifically targetting them and was part of the "ARR camp". These are all silly assumptions about which I dont give a damn.
Maddy ,I dont think you need to be sorry for anything.Just relax and chill out. I dont take most of these "reviews" on my neutrality or bias seriously.They are amusing to read most of the time and a good time-pass to argue about.
Please highlight the personal abuse texts and send me a PM, I will edit them as per your command!!Quote:
Originally Posted by NOV
:confused2: seems that no one has subscribed to my views :ashamed: :oops: relax guys!!! :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan
vijay, glad we are getting a clearer picture of where we stand. Comparing HJ and ARR is like comparing a dhoddabedda to Everest. At the same time, dhoddabedda has its own charms, and it need not have each and every charm of Everest to be enjoyed standalone. I am not a HJ fan, and my hard drive has what, like, 10-12 songs of his. I didnt even think Vaseegara was a good song, forget great.Like Bombay Jayashree mentioned somewhere, it is just an average but pleasant tune. I dont have to stand up for him but where I see a problem is you are criticising HJ at a different level compared to ARR fanatics, who probably want to imply that HJ is a parangimalai to ARR's everest, yet you are being used as a shield by those very fanatics. No frets, I know you dont care about any perception, and I stated as much in my previous post "not that you need to appear unbiased etc". It was merely an analysis of the existing situation.
Maddy, happy to know that you respect me. I generally refrain from drawing individuals into the discussion and am sorry that I had to make an exception here - I still havent seen any remote evidence that HJ lifted Vaseegara from ARR's stock. Muqabla issue is different - that song everyone knows is ARR's and when bollywood lifted it, even I could point out that "look, they have lifted muqabla" :-)
If you like to believe that Vaseegara is lifted on the basis of hearsay, I am sorry I'd have to label you along with the rest of the ARR fanatics. To give you credit, as I have mentioned before, I dont see you as a grade A fanatic but I do think if you refrain from those "revenge" acts( I am sure you know what I mean) of belittling IR/HJ/YSR/Bharadwaj/Whoever just because their fans bad-mouthed ARR at some point in the past, I'd have more respect for you.
In any case, dont fret. All that has happened here is rajdes believes that Maddy is capable of ARR fanaticism, if you read my statement closely. Are you unhappy about that? I bet not :-).
vijay, now we'll continue the discussion on the rhythm issue. I am glad that we agree on the rhythm making the song good or bad being subjective. The problem with taking exception to a common rhythm is that it presupposes knowledge of the said rhythm. I may not be a music expert but may have an ear for music and thus like a song along with its rhythm. That it was a done-to-death rhythm is lost on me, perhaps. In that case, subjectively atleast, the rhythm was good for the song. In this particular case, that might be what happened with Jaiganes. I really dont know if a $100-kb-rhythm is necessarily *tacky* without exception. I'll take your word for that - I think even you said that it need not always be tacky. Even conceding it was, I still think the rhythm was subjectively good for Jaiganes(and as you can see, most of TN laymen). I'd respect that.I have problems only if the rhythm is taking away from the song; if it totally screws up the listening experience of that song,that is. Hope you see what I mean
On loops vs rhythm, I'd have to disagree. It's not that I dont see your point. Using loops might be a higher skill than using KB rhythms but to me, I somehow cannot grade the 'crime' level and give different grades to these acts - let's leave it at that :-)
As I said, a serviceable rhythm might be okay if the song appeals in other respects to the user. And I may even call it good if it harmonizes with and does not detract from the listening experience of the song, even if it is trite. Thats just me.I can see that your deep knowledge of music doesnt allow you to do that :-)
Jaiganes, dont take this "neutral" label seriously. It doesnt mean a thing as vijay himself acknowledged. We are all biased in one way or the other. When someone says you are objective, he probably means that for that moment you supported his idol :-). Like they said "Diplomacy is not only the art of dividing the cake equally but also ensuring that each participant goes back thinking he got the biggest chunk". Chew on that :-)
Scale, I am tired of typing now but I am sorry, a HCIRF saying HJ copied from ARR without proof doesnt cut it for me. Let ARR say openly then we'll see. On Muqabla et al, ARR didnt need to say openly becuase to anyone with one ear in working condition it was obvious. Also, at that stage, he was a budding composer, especially in Bollywood and couldnt really take much action. Let the bollywood crappies try it now - and believe me, ARR will not let it go unpunished. And so he shouldn't. I dont know why my statement was taken as criticism of ARR. All I said was "ARR will not take crap from other composers who copy him". Which is exactly what a person of integrity and courage should do. You guys still have problems with that?
Maddy, to reiterate what I said to Scale, I believe that ARR should get compensated for all the copies from him. So should IR for those mid-90's A-M, AM lifts. Unlike IR, however, ARR has the business sense,PR machine, advisors and media support to go hammer and tongs after copiers, if he wishes to. And after his courageous stand on music rights recently, I believe he will definitely do that if required.
again i dont agree with this......ARR has business sense???huh.....if he had some, he wud bought a flat in London during 99', composed left and right for Hollywood........that wud made him 10 times richer.........probably even i wanted him to do that.......he wud have been far better off rather than getting dragged in comparisons with IR's sons and a Harris Jeyaraj like now........Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdes
y wud u think UN made him their ambassador??? just bcos he had good business sense??? u know its like Reliance and Tata group in India....though both are great companies, ppl. respect Tata more.....why??? they both make money :huh: .....so ARR is like a Tata and not a Reliance....(sorry all those Reliance guys.....ironically i have worked for both these companies :lol: )
also, rajdes, i need to tell you, it was our RS who revealed to us that Vaseegara was from ARR's stock.......until then i had no clue abt this.......i do believe in a lot of stuff RS says.......so i thot this shuld have happened........thats it.......but i have hardly seen any ARR fan pressing for this in any thread..... :huh:
lastly, i'm a unabashed ARR fanatic.........but got to tell u that after ARR and IR, i listen primarily to HJ only.......i think this guy is capable of doing something that ARR hasnt........i didnt see 76' so its frustration that noone has been able to create that magic of 92 makes me go mad at these guys - YSR and HJ.....
As per ARR claims on Hindu, HJ worked with him for only 2 films. Well I don't know the probability of him stealing ARR's tune but if proved true it will be a bigger sham than Kamal's 500rs check to Dhanu for Aalavandhan audio rights. HJ did make a meal out of it!
" I am glad that we agree on the rhythm making the song good or bad being subjective. "
of course it is. As are most other discussions on why one likes/dislikes a song. idhula enna doubt?
But if someone specifically points out the rhythm and say its good or imaginative, I'll disagree. I'll say that its commonplace and has already been used before. So its neither innovative nor imaginative. That part of it isnt completely subjective you know. If you treat the rhythm pattern as a separate entity(like tune, orchestration etc.) then HJ gets a 0 on 10 for that song.
But if they argue saying that even that commomnplace rhythm fits the songs well, then it becomes subjective and I'll just disagree which is what I did earlier.
vasanth,
May be it's another song and not the DGS Dhinakaran theme...
And it's a well known fact that HJ indulges in copying devotionals...one popular xmas number got suttufied to `yEdhO ondRu, yEdhO ondRu unnaikkEtpEn'...
vijay, twice I posted in reply and realised that I had lost it since I hadnt logged in. Guess it'll take sometime to gain enthu to retype the whole thing again. Till then, lets put this to rest.
i feel Vijay Anthony will growing composer above HJ because his music so catchy to attract most people. i am Malaysian, my office colleague all malay and chinese, whenever i play GF, Kalvanin Kathali and Dishum songs they only enjoy 2 songs thats Dailamo and Boomiku velichumellam and they liked.
I played GF, Dishum, VV, Vallavan, other vishunu film Bharath and Arya starring--to my chinese, black, white, north indian, russian, african, phillipino and tamil friends
They liked Ilamai and Innisai
guess what? today a chinese fren of mine...was singging Munbe Vaa yen anbe vaa....coz my another indian fren taught her how to sing... and she kept on singging the song all day...even to my Malay teachers... haha! :lol: she is so addicted to the tune [imagine,she is singging it without listenin to the ACTUAL SONG actually...and she requested me to let her hear the song... will be sending her the song later] .... and ofcource,the other indian gal too taught her Partha Mudhal Naal...she sang few lines but she insist on us teaching her the Munbe Va only!! :wink: cool huh!!!! now my whole class knows Munbe va...thanks to her!!! hahaha
[ note: only 4 indians in my class,the rest 19 are chinese & malays]!!! 8-)