crazy,
The uneducated poor portuguese invaders were certainly those who destroyed the most my homeland !
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crazy,
The uneducated poor portuguese invaders were certainly those who destroyed the most my homeland !
This thread seems to branch out to different issues concerned with muslim attitude in general and our government's continued policy of appeasement of minorities.
There is nothing wrong in documenting the atrocities commited by one religious sect against another. I completely agree with some of the views presented regarding the barbarious raids of muslims in the medieval period and the theocratic rule of latter muslim kings. But the whole subject should be viewed in the context of the completely different situations that existed then and exist now. During the invasion of muslims, there were no international laws that governed the relationship between countries or kingdoms. So, it is no surprise that attrocities commited during Crusades and Islamic invasions went unpunished. But international laws provide safeguards, though flawed at times, today to counter and punish any such adventure.
Attempts to draw inspiration from the Jewish outcry over the holocaust is unnecessary. The holocaust has remained the single most potent weapon of Jews in general and Israel in particular to garner support and sympathy from US and other European countries (Berlin is strewn with Holocaust museums and I was surprised that even the public opinion poll at the end of the exhibition at 'Anne Frank House' in Amsterdam is evenly divided about the right to deny the claimed excesses during the holocaust) in its continued oppression of the Palestinian people. We should not allow such a situation to occur in our country. The current generation should not be made accountable and persecuted for the excesses commited in the long past. Unfortunately, our shrewd religious leaders have largely succeeded in sowing the seeds of hatred based on these very same issues.
As for minority appeasement, my view is that the common civil code should be implemented and any attempts to introduce reservation for the minority community should be nipped out. The uniform civil code is a must for the good of the minorities themselves. If used right, many of the archaic practices can be done away with and development of the minority community will automatically follow. We should understand that secularism means a religionless government and not one that supports the varied religious practices of its citizens.
Finally all this reinforces my notion: why religion at all? It seems to spread more hatred than love.
Timur
I hate such long posts but this one I couldnt brief without loosing the essence.
In 1397 Timur-i-lang obtained the intelligence that the Tughlaq Sultanate in India was on the decline. After the destruction the Southern Alliance of Mir Hussain (whose grandfather, Amir Qazaghan of Balkh was a great backer of Mohamed bin Tughlaq and Firoz Shah Tughlaq) and the conquest of Balkh by Timur, the Tughlaqs lost the backing of the Southern Alliance and the buffer provided by this alliance against the Central Asian Khanates. As a consequence the Kokhars of the Salt Range under Raja Jasrat led a massive rebellion against Mahmud Shah Tughlaq. In South India too, the Tughlaq armies were repulsed by the Hindu revival, and the local Islamic governors of Bijapur, Golconda and Ahmednagar broke free from Delhi. Turkic chieftains in Bengal, Gujarat and Avadh also crowned themselves local Sultans. The Rajput chief Rai Dalachandra liberated himself from the Tughlaqs and took the forts of Bhatnair and Loni on the road from Multan to Delhi. Timur saw a great opportunity of plundering India, and also that for a Jihad on the polytheists. The Zafar Nama piously announces: “There arose in my heart the desire to lead a jihad against the infidels, and to become a ghazi; for it had reached my ears that the slayer of infidels is a ghazi, and if he is slain instead while fighting the fire-worshipers he becomes a shahid. It was on this account that I formed this resolution, but I was undetermined in my mind whether I should direct my jihad against the infidels of China or against the idolaters and polytheists of India. In this matter I sought an omen from the Quran, and the verse I opened upon was this: O Prophet, make war upon infidels and unbelievers and treat them with severity. The Quran emphasizes that the highest dignity which man may attain is to wage war in person on the enemies of the Faith. This why I, the great Timur-i-Lang was always concerned about exterminating the worshipers of the fire and the sun, as much to acquire merit as from the love of undying glory.”
He held a Quriltai in 1398 and asked his grand Amirs to give their opinions on the plan to invade India. Some of his Amirs said that in the past Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi the descendent of the Turkish lord Subuqtegin conquered Hindustan with a mere 30,000 cavalry, and established his own naukers as rulers of Hind. He slaughtered Hindus and carried off many thousand carts of gold, silver and jewels from them, besides subjecting them to Jaziya. They posed the rhetoric question: “is our Amir inferior to Sultan Mahmud?” And replied “Allah has made our exalted Amir Timur-i-lang the lord of an even mightier army of Mongols and Turks. He will become a ghazi and mujahid before Allah, we shall be attendants on an Amir who is a ghazi, the army will be contented, the treasury rich and well filled with the gold of Hindustan”. Then Shah Rukh, his youngest son spoke “The conquest of India, it is said is a higher honor than bearing titles like Kha’Khan, Caesar, Shahinshah, Sultan or Faghfur. So it would be a pity if we were not to exterminate the Indians” Then Pir Mohamed, his grandson spoke “We have to grab that land which is full of gold, jewels, and in it there are seventeen mines of gold, silver, diamonds, rubies, emeralds, tin, iron, lead, copper and mercury.” Timur, pleased by these words, stated “I have made up my mind to rid India of the filth of the polytheistic Hindus who make offerings in fire called Yazad, destroy their temples and idols, and become ghazis and mujahids before Allah.”
In January 1398 Timur sent a raiding squadron under his grandson Pir Mohamed from Balkh to attack Multan (Mulasthana) and sent another army under his other grandson Mirza Iskander to assault Lahore. Pir forded the Sindhu and besieged Multan and bombarded it with trebuchets and fire pots. After a protracted siege of six months he took the city and looted it completely. In the mean time Iskander took Lahore and they prepared the path for Timur. Timur took his own course; first he decided to destroy the Kalasha Kafirs of Afghanistan. The Kalasha were an ancient Indo-Iranian tribe, who represented the last surviving group of the 3rd branch of the Indo-Iranian peoples. They were inveterate pagans worshiping the old Indo-Iranian deities, completely unaffected by Islam that had washed away the Indo-Aryan culture all around them. Timur decided to strike them in the upper reaches of the Panjshir valley. But he was prevented from entering the valley by the Kalasha Raja, who was blocking the advance of Timur through a guerrilla attack from Siah Posh. He sent a second force of 10,000 cavalry to take Siah Posh, but the Kalasha Raja demolished it through a surprise sally. Furious over this Timur decided to directly attack the Panjshir valley despite the heavy snow. He set up a system of pulleys and lowered his troops into the valley via large baskets braving severe cold and snow storms. Having entered the valley his spread mayhem amidst the Kafirs. However, they fled to the mountains and continued to fight. Timur dejected over the hold up, built fortifications to fend off the Kafirs and marched on, exiting the valley at Khawak. Before leaving he carved an inscription on the mountain defiles of Kator marking his invasion of the Kafir land.
Proceeding south, Timur with a force of 93,000 horsemen, crossed the Sindhu on Sept.24th 1398 and made a broad sweep towards the rich town of Talamba, north of Multan. Having sacked and obliterated the city, he merged with his grandsons’ tuemens at Multan. Then the combined Timurid army marched rapidly towards the west bank of Shutudri (Sutlej) river. Here Timur took on Raja Jasrat and having killed him in a quick heavy cavalry charge, destroyed the Khokhar army. The survivors were forcibly converted to Islam at the threat of immediate execution. Having crossed the river he secured the Multan-Delhi road and started his march on Delhi. The fort of Bhatnair stood on this road and offered formidable defense against the invader. Timur promptly besieged the fort after sweeping through the countryside and forced Rai Dalachandra into the defensive. On 10th November 1398, he suddenly assaulted fort with giant fort-breaking ballistas that hurled huge rocks over a ton on the fort walls. Prince Shah Rukh, Mazid al Baghdadi and Jahan Maliq, Timur’s fierce generals, led the assault on the Hindus. The Hindus retaliated with an heavy rain fireworks from their ramparts, but the Timurids pushed on building mines to break the ramparts. Finally, the fort ramparts were demolished and the Timurid army rushed into the fort capturing Dalachandra and killing other defenders after much desperate fighting at close quarters.
Timur then sacked the town of Sirsuti (on the old Sarasvati) and destroyed it completely slaying numerous Hindus. Then he quickly took the towns of Aspandi, Kaithal, Samana and completely depopulated them. He states that while destroying these places he noticed several fire-worshipers, similar to the Parsis of Iran and exterminated them in the true spirit of a ghazi (most probably he meant Brahmins). On 5th December he sacked Panipat and took the wheat granaries there as the Hindus fled in terror on hearing of his approach. On December 10th he proceed to attack the Loni that stood the north-east of Delhi, the Hindu defenders shaken by the loss of their chief failed to put an effective fight and were trashed by the Timurid army. Timur seized about 100,000 Hindus after the battle by encircling them in a crescent-like movement, even as held their mass Mongols hunting expeditions on the steppe. He ordered his men to slaughter each one of them right away. He proudly describes how a Mullah who had not even killed a sparrow in the past now slew several Hindus with great enthusiasm. On December 17th he reached the banks of the Yamuna, between Delhi and Panipat and engaged the Tughlaq army commanded by Mallu Iqbal and Sultan Mahmud Shah Tughlaq. Timur’s troops first fired bolts shaped like spiked tetrahedra on the field in front of them and retreated behind this zone of spikes. The Tughlaq army seeing the Timurids seeming to retreat, led a direct elephant charge. But, this was immediately nullified as the elephants’s feet were spiked by the tetrahedra. The Delhi cavalry was pressed into a charge on a short notice and was engaged by the right wing of Timur’s army comprising of cavalry archers. As the Delhi cavalry was being mowed down by the Central Asian archers, the left wing of Timur’s army, comprising of the heavily armored cavalry, encircled the right wing of the Tughlaq army, and cut it down. The Tughlaq army faced complete encirclement: Mallu Iqbal was killed and he was speared like a kebob and displayed to force the survivors to surrender. Mahmud Tughlaq escaped just before the encirclement and fled to Gujarat, even as his army lay “with heads and hands mixed with the trunks of the pachyderm”.
Timur triumphantly marched into Delhi and the Ulema begged him to spare the lives of the Moslems. He asked them to proclaim him the exalted sultan of Hindustan. The Hindus seeing that they faced a brutal death revolted enmasse and were slaughtered with much fury in the fierce fighting that broke out through the streets of Delhi. Four pyramids of the heads of slaughtered Hindus were set up in the four corner of Delhi and only the qualified craftsmen were bound and sent off in slave trains to Samarqand. Any Moslems who failed to give Timur’s troops their supplies were also forthwith roasted like Kebobs. Timur spent 15 days in Delhi solemnly occupying the throne of Delhi declaring himself emperor of India. He summoned 120 elephants and made them bow their heads and kneel before him in obeisance and trumpet in unison. He felt that it marked the submission of Hindustan itself at the feet of the world conqueror. He then sent off the elephants in long strings to the Herat, Tabriz, Shiraz and Samarqand. The treasury was taken by Timur and in one stroke the wealth that the Moslem rulers had robbed from Indians over two centuries, comprising of incalculable amounts of gold, silver and gems. He then performed his Islamic prayers in the old Jami Masjid, placed a cleric from Bokhara as its Imam and had him read the Friday Namaz in his name. Finally on January 1, 1399 when the stench of the corpses made his stay impossible, he ordered his troops to burn down Delhi, except for the Moslem quarters, and proceeded to attack Meerut. In Meerut he demolished all the Hindu temples and captured the Hindu inhabitants. The Hindus were then skinned alive or their throats were slit. Timur triumphantly declared that he had observed his vow of waging Jihad and then burnt the city down. He then obtained intelligence regarding the flourishing Indian shrines in Haradwara and decided to destroy them and defile the Ganga with blood of cows and “wearers of the thread”. To this end he fell upon a large group of pilgrims, north of Meerut, who were advancing for the Mela on Ganga and slaughtered several thousands of them. As he advanced towards the banks of the Ganga, when Hindus of all denominations, from throughout the region, both men and women, decided to stop him at all costs. 200000 Indians assembled with whatever weapons they could gather and decided to block the path to the Ganga and the temples of Haradwara. At Bhokar Heri near Ganga the Hindu force took on the Timurid army in a frontal assault. Though Timur was vastly outnumbered, his cavalry was much larger, as only a small subset of the 200000 Hindus, namely the Rajput and Brahmin fighters had horses. The battle raged on fiercely for 3 days with Timur’s general Suleyman Shah leading the charge; despite heavy losses the Hindus, in resolute defense of their holy sites kept their flag aloft, with most of the Rajputs falling in battle. Timur seeing no major gains from this encounter, and also fearing attacks on his heavy booty, decided to withdraw without reaching the Ganga (Though he claims that he crossed it). He captured numerous cows and buffaloes that he used as food in his advance.
He returned taking a northerly route along the Siwaliks and attacked the fortress of Trisarta (modern Kangra) that was under the control of the Raja Ratana Sena and Raja Brihata. The Hindu defenders were beaten in an involved charge led by his heavily armored cavalry. Brihata was slain first and the Hindu women in camp fell into the hand of the Timurid army, much to his delight. He next killed Ratana Sena after a fierce battle that was led by Pir Mohamed and Suleyman Shah and captured 50,000 Hindus as slaves to be sent off to Samarqand and Bukhara. Then he engaged the Hindu Raja of Jammu, Maaladeva again near Jammu and crushed his forces in the encounter. He captured Maaladeva while he was fleeing near the upper Chenab and had the great joy of making him eat beef and forsake Hinduism for Islam. Sikander, the Sultan of Kashmir, humbly submitted to Timur and accepted his suzerainty. He then appointed Khizr Khan Sayyid as viceroy in Delhi and a local Moslem warlord as the governor of Multan. Rich in booty and slaves he triumphantly returned to Samarqand.
Nehru's view on Timur-i-Lang
"Late in the fourteenth century, Timur, the Turk or Turco-Mongol, came down from the north in India; he came to Delhi and went back. But all along his route he created a wilderness adorned with pyramids of skulls of those he had slain; and Delhi itself became a city of the dead. Fortunately he did not go far and only some parts of the Punjab and Delhi had to suffer this terrible affliction." wrote Nehru in his "Discovery Of India".
our homeland!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelavar
iam not good at tamil eelam history! i just went through the link and read those stuffs!
sandeep ur post was long indeed! i have to print out and read! send u comments after having read!
All I can do is pray that this shd not happen again in my country....But present political scenario, premonits that similar acts may soon happen in this Bharatham again.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandeep
What aspects of the current political system lead you to think that similar acts may happen again?Quote:
Originally Posted by srivatsan
Very True kannan sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by kannannn
evading a problem is not a solution. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketboy
Yes manyvan, evading the problem is not the solution, provided the problem has another solution. As far as religious hostility is concerned, there can be no solution at all, since all religions want to prove that they are superior :(. And I can't think of any other single reason that has caused more deaths in human history than religion. Can you? When people fight and kill over something that's supposed to make them happy and united, you know something is seriously wrong.
Are you sure? think again. More deaths were caused due to individual pride, desire and wrath, not because of religion. religion is a guide. Not all are capable of thinking independently. We are still in the process of evolution and most of us need religion at least not to cause damage to others. Why do you think we still need laws if all of us are good enough to think on our own? The day when we dont need laws is the day we dont need religions.Quote:
Originally Posted by kannannn
Religion is the law of life. It is a guide. If it is causing problems, it is because people do not understand it properly. It is the duty of those who "really" understand religion to educate others.
Yes, sumone had once posed a simialr qsn. in the RK mission I go to....the monk who'd read out the qsn. explained tat the reason ppl. fight over religion is bcos ppl. of every religion believe tat religion is in the rituals, customs, dogmas & other superficial elements tat r done as a matter of routine. They forget the fact tat the core pupose of ne & every religion is to help us reach God by developing the self.Quote:
Originally Posted by kannannn
Its only wen ppl. realise the core idea behnind every religion tat this fighting over religion wud stop, as they'd realise tat the goal is common.
Lamby although i have a feeling my post will be deleted...i sincerely feel God created us as men and women and never created religions for us. All he told us was to be good and do good to others. However maybe due to him coming various forms to guide men, they must have misunderstood his forms and created a religion for his preachings. I believe it was relatively still plain till humans added rituals and religious morals again due to God appearing to guide humans when they were in trouble as a sort of gratitude to God. (e.g Krishnan destroyed Narakkasura to bring back light over the world...to commemorate this day they celebrated deepavali).
exactly :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by manyvan2000
hulk there r other religions who CLAIMS to be chosen by ppl and even asked/commanded( :?: ) to pass my HIS MESSAGE he wanted to tell to mannkind(in one particular region) and even called those group in certain religious name!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulkster
Religion is just an excuse for war and destruction it causes. Anyone who doesn't see thru this, is just playing into the hands of people who use religion to advance their own needs.
Those aint religions my dear ponnu....more of cults or societies hiding themselves in the name of religions...yes they will say they are messenger of god...sya that if you follow this religion when you die you will go to planet XYZ to be at Gods side forever...:banghead:..i sometimes marvel at how this people can actually persuade others to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy
HiQuote:
Originally Posted by dsath
NO, Not at all, it is Mis interpretation and mis understanding and lack of LOGICAL thinking which causes it, non of the Religions preaches hatred towards any other religious sects it is all
MISUNDERTANDING AND MISINTERPRETATION.
any way, lets get back to the Topic!
[quote="HulksterThose aint religions my dear ponnu....more of cults or societies hiding themselves in the name of religions...yes they will say they are messenger of god...sya that if you follow this religion when you die you will go to planet XYZ to be at Gods side forever...:banghead:..i sometimes marvel at how this people can actually persuade others to follow.[/quote]
ayya raasa, neenga abrahamic religions pathi padichade illaya? only b'coz of what God(not to offend, their GOD is my GOD too)said( :?: ), there is going on a war! and u r telling me that they r sects?
Vendam raasathi vendam....neenga mathathai follow pennuraenge...naan verum kaduvulai follow pennugiraen....i renounced myself from religions after reading what is posted in the Quran which im sure god never said it but rather humans wrote it down themselves(e.g. take any woman of the enemy as a slave when you have conquered the enemy)....certain things in bible are said by God..but some of them are self scripted...i will not elaborate any further.
excuse me i believe in GOD too! since u were talking about GOD said that and GOD doesnt said this, is was quoting abrahamic religions! i dont care what GOD said and what GOD didnt say!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulkster
I have an opinion about God and abt religion, thats it , i follow it!
ANYWAY lets stick to the topic!
i just came to know that "hindukush" means "hindu killer", is that true? did anyone know that before?
guys and girls pls lests stick with the topic!
Thats excatly what i was trying to say. No religion preaches hatred. Its we people who use it as a weapon to further our own miscalculated opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raghu
Talking about the topic, Genocide has always taken place, religious or not. Did Stalin not kill millions to stay in power. Thankfully he did not advocate any religion. Had he done that, the religion he advocated would have been the object of hatred.
These wars will exists until humans thirst for power dies.
Why do we call a person who killed millions, ravaged cities and destroyed civilizations for his personal glory 'Great' ( Alexander the Great). Its basic Human nature to glorify these incidents. A Macedonian may be proud of Alexander while a Egyptian might regard him as a devil's incarnation.Its just which side of the coin we see, that forms our opinion.
Who can deny that Hindu kings have never attacked other regions and caused destruction. We call them great warriors and praise them.
Its humans that cause destruction not religion.
Hatred against that individual may be justified, but how can we justify hatred against that religion.
There are few HARD truths, which we cant publicly quote...so we need not talk about other religions.....just the way Hindus were cleansed from different parts of world in the past....just to acknowledge it....Quote:
Originally Posted by dsath
hi crazy,
I'm sorry i didn't know your origin !
One of the most shameful fact due to this genocide, it's the understanding of India's greatness which was falsified and forgot..
Our heritage totally neglected.
Now that we have material proofs of India antiquity why not rewrite history ?
In western countries they even don't know that anciant India was democratic as some Greeks. They even don't know that we too have had atomists in very anciant time like the Greek.
This brainwashing is surely political but we Indians have to change this Earth's face !
According to Western Historians, Indians did not have any sense of history (as a subject) until the Westerners introduced it to them. Unlike Chinese, the Indians do not have any recorded history. All that they possess is some religious literature, much of which is just mythology. Some Indian scholars in the West seemed to have argued that such a view should be reconsidered – notably one Prof (Dr) Sharma. ( I do not have full references now). A lot of controversies are being raised everyday by ideologists about new findings. Consequently any Westerner or non-Indian would still reject if you start rewriting anything about ancient India.
Re: history of Indian independence, it appears even the Congress Party was started by the whites. Indians learnt to fight for independence from them!! So what to rewrite?
What you call religious literature is the real history..... though it talk about the events that happened 5000 years before.Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
In this mean time, we were not in a position to write any history...as we were busy in saving our kith and kin....see the title of this thread...
Yeah...ur post is quite clear...Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
According to WESTERNERS, indians didn't have a sense of hist, until the WESTERNERS intruduced it. And this is all according to WESTERNERS btw! :lol2:
..even now any WESTERNER would reject it if indians start rewriting anything about ancient India. :roll:
Hmm......8-)
PS: Just out of Curiosity..r u indian? :)
yes thats quite true!Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
they have the feeling like they r the one who taught us to write and taught us history................ur own history!
EELAVAR: its allright!
Eelavar wrote:In western countries they even don't know that anciant India was democratic as some Greeks. They even don't know that we too have had atomists in very anciant time like the Greek.
any proofs for your statements ?
I agree that we need to update our history based on recent findings, but that should not be based on the perceptions of some politicians. This is an exercise to be done by academicians without religious affiliations. We need more research to be done on the coastal areas like poompuhar where preliminary research has indicated presence of pre historic structures on the ocean floor dating to before 5000 bc.
Mahadevan wrote :Yes i live in Switzerland, and at school i'm forced to follow a little brainwashing philosophy course !@@!Quote:
any proofs for your statements ?
One of my teachers teached me that Greeks were the first philosophers, and so were the first to do philosophy because after him and western scholars even the word 'philosophy' come from the Latin !!
He tried to say me that science was developped by Western.. He too said rubbish like because the word 'atom' come from the Greek or the Latin (i don't remember), Greeks were the first to imagine a atomist theory !
What a logical thinking !
mahadevan,
You are right the findings of underwater cities ruins by Graham Hancock should enlight Western.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kannannn
THE GENOCIDE CONTINUES
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=66944
This is just anotehr and I dont need to quote other such incidences.....any unbiased and sensible brain would recognize facts. Kannannn, if you want to close your eyes....I dont have any objection
What Western historians say is that Indians dont have sence of date before the islamic invations of India mainly because our (Indian) dates dont march with that of Western (Biblical) dates. But if you check works of chinese historians who travelled to India at various times there is clear evidence that pre-islamist Indian kindoms maintained detailed history with dates.Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
Please note the following.Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
1) First Indian War of Independence 1857-58
2) Congress
Founded in 1885 with the object of obtaining a greater share in government for educated Indians, the Indian National Congress was initially not opposed to British rule. It was found by a Scotsman, Allan Octavian Hume with the approval of Lord Dufferin, the then-Viceroy.
Later under Tikal (Garam dal-Extremists) and Gokhale (Naram dal-Moderates) Indian National Congress started getting involved in Independence. It was Gandhiji who brought congress to the common man and started the Mass movement for Independence.
Altho western historians still refer to it as a "Sepoy Mutiny"....:oops: :evil: :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandeep
Vanakkam Lamby !
*digr
Vanakkam BG! :D
Sowkyama? :)
Lamby....jst out of curiosity.....why are so fond of lambretta.....?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambretta
Srivatsan,
This Hindu Kush is now in Kashmir !
It's hard to think that but there are still uncivilised killers at modern time ! :cry:
Wake up ladies and gentlemen ! :evil:
We must fight this intolerance. :wink:
The political solution that can stop Kashmir becoming another Afganisthan is dismission Article 360 of our stinking constitution giving Special status to Kashmir......Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelavar
I have the will, but I am not a politicain and I hav no political power.....those who hav the political power dont have the will....God save this Bharthavarsha....