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Sounds similar but not identical. Actually its like a cross between "Whole Lotta Love" and Jimi Hendrix's "Voodoo Child"Quote:
Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan
(Watch out for the wakapekka pedal right at the beginning).
Senorita la semma speed-a irukkum...and then joined by the second guitar (Whole Lotta Love)..
The 'Naan Kadavul' song 'Kannil Paarvai' has a nice and different beat. The song I think starts one aksharam before the samam. That is what I felt. My knowledge on layam is poor so someone who has expertise in this can clarify.
S.Suresh
Just heard this song by IR:
"Oru koottil" from Kolangal (1995)
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00304.html
interesting and unorthodox
A nice song Ananth. An interesting rhythm pattern. Have not heard this song before. Thanks for pointing it out.
S.Suresh
A nice Kanda Chapu talam song (5 beat). Unlike other songs like 'Azhagu Malarada', which have a Kanda Gati within the Adi Talam framework, this has Kanda Chapu throughout.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7mjM...eature=related
Observe how Illayaraja uses different rhythm instruments throughout. There is thavil in the beginning, the synth rhythms, the bongos(?), the tabla. Everything blending so beautifully.
Anyone know of other Kanda Chapu songs? By Raja or others.
poo poo poo
pootha solai from En Uyir thozhan
http://www.centralmusiq.com/Puthu-Ne...3-download.php
muthamizh kaviyae varuga
This excellent post by Violin Vicky explains the nuances of the thalams for a couple of songs.
http://raagadevan.blogspot.com/
(I had posted this link in another thread and then thought it was appropriate to have it in this thread as well.)
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00323.html
Adadaa - ingu vilayaadum...
The second interlude and the portions of charanam have a very complex rhythms... and by God who is the male singer (definitely not KJY) sounds like Jolly Abraham and what a toughie to sing this song so well...
Also the oru oorile oru rajakumaran song from the movie - forget the ultimate picturisation and listen to the song alone - this is experimentation on an unheard of scale. varied sound scapes, varied rhythm patterns, kiddie stuff to Ph.D stuff all in one songQuote:
Originally Posted by jaiganes
the vocal harmony based "naan porandhu vandhadhu" is bloody brilliant! IR always reserves something special for Panchu Arunachalam!!
Jai,
Thanks once again. Hearing 'adada' for the first time. Clearly not Jesudas.
BTW, the site says 'Maya Bazar' is a 1985 movie but I remember it being in the 90s. When was it released?
Maya Bazar - 96 la vandhadhu nu nenaikiren.
pdam perae - Maya Bazar95 or 96
apo release ana padam dhan idhu.
add parthutu padam parka asai paten.
son apo 1st std.
avanukum pidichadhu. plan panni theatre pona
padathai maathitanga. miss panninom........
Yes, it was named "Mayabazaar-1995" , nothing but Kalyanaraman revisited . Watched Mayabazaar and Raasaiah back to back with our family friends and vividly remember their comment "paatellam enna ivaLo mosama irukku!!! iLaiyarajavaa idhu?? Adhaan market poyiduthu ". I personally liked 3 songs from Rasaiya "karuvaattu kuzhambu" , "dindukallu" and another one which I cannot recollect immediately. Reg Mayabazaar, "naan porandhu" and "oru oorile" were simply brilliant. Between 93-97 , Raja was in an experimental mode . Post KM, he resorted to simple, mediocre stuff as may be he felt there were no takers for the former.
Was the other song from Rasayya, 'kadhal vaanile'?
I can understand the comments you heard during those times. I also heard very similar comments from people. Those were the Rahman days and for many people Raja sounded 'outdated'. The need of the hour was the new rhythmic loops and the raga being made explicit using the standard and well worn out phrases. As you rightly mention many experiments did not get the acceptance. Films like 'Chandralekha', 'Paatu Paadavaa' went down without a fight. The general feeling on the street was that Illayaraja had lost it. And to some extent I have to confess that I too was in that same mood during those times.
Now, when you listen to these films without worry about their 'hit' status, you are stunned by what was being done. Even a movie like 'Kumbakonam Gopalu' has some lovely songs. (RS once asked me, "How can you expect a movie with such a name to have good songs?" :) ) I am not sure I would agree with the post KM assessment. There were some movies where the music was simpler but if you take the Malayalam films of the same period, there is nothing simple about them. 'Kochu Kochu Santoshangal', 'Friends' etc had very complex instrumentation and tunes. And ofcourse, 'Virumandi' and 'Mumbai Express' happened post KM. My feeling is that during these time Raja was trying to balance between his needs and the market needs, something which didn't have to do earlier in his career.
No Suresh. Infact "kaadhal vaaniley' and "mastaana" are the least liked ones, though quite popular then . Regarding post KM phase, my scope is only wrt tamil films around 1997-2001 period . I could sense a perceptible drop in quality , say in films like "naatupurapaatu", "veera thaalaattu","thalaimurai", "chinna durai", "poomani" etc where the tunes were predictable and lacklustre
http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/
The laya raaja post aptly discusses a complex laya transition. there is also rhythm change as we transition from carnatic to WCM (or did we?). Awesome to listen and read. really I havent heard this song b4 and I am stumped .
Oh wasnt there the bass guitar that joins the veena in the second interlude with guitar and other WCM instruments?
I bow to thee Raaja.
I listened to the song "ilamanadhil" in is blog...one thing i have to accept it frankly i never paid attention to this once compared to other popular number from the movie.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiganes
But to write an entire article about the song which ordinarily goes unnoticed ...this is only possible with raaja.. he put so much into a 5 min. song!!....
Rightly the blogger says "Music of the one and only Emperor of Music-Illaiyaraaja" :clap:
If there is so much to look forward from him same way for us to look backward and unearth the gems....I instantly fell in love with this number...
Jai,
Surprisingly this is one song that I have heard before !! Surprising because I haven't heard many of the rare songs of that era. I am not sure if Usha had posted this in the SOTD thread but I have certainly heard it. A wonderful Mayamalavagowla. This man somehow finds multiple facets of this raga. It never bores you but instead bores into your heart.
The songs he has chosen to analyse show something about the early Raaja of 80s. It was the early Raaja who wasnt sure where something was coming from - There was a distinct feeling that he needed to keep the Western Classical elements kinda separated from the carnatic/folkish and the go between was the Bass Guitar which he has rightly mentioned in his blog. then after a while in 80s and late 80s all became one family - there is no need for a bridge - They are all one now - for the listener this is when the troubles(happy troubles i mean) began - when does the Classical carnatic end and where does the Western classical begin? What is the boundary? Can be quite confusing in a pleasant way - Then he released two Konar notes in the form of How To name it and Nothing but wind and now Thiruvaasagam - Enough guides for us to enter the maze and come out whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
His choice of pantuvaraali (I got the explanation this blogger gave) is interesting (Isnt it the same raaga in Andhi mazhai pozhigiradhu?) Coz I traced some swaras back to Hamsanandi songs as well is also rather gutsy. while MSV and KVM used Raagas in film music, they went into the depths of raagas and distilled the essence of them to bring it out in one song, Raaja is a provocative experimenter seeing where all the contours of a raaga go and what all other strange forms it can meet and where can hand shakes to those forms be done.. It not only requires the dosage of Love (to accept all things on the other side of boundary), but also extreme guts and hard work that make a genius to do that .
What an observation !!
The Western arrangement and orchestration-without mixing even a single alien swara- combined with the Indian rhythmic calculations and patterns are possible only by one person!
Jai,
As you and others rightly point out, what Raja has been doing is to unify everything without making any one of them distinct. Actually Raja makes one form distinct, .i.e., if he is making a folk song, the spirit is bound to be that of a folk song. What he does is that he uses resources from every part of the world to service this folk song. So the folk song would be accompanied by western classical, Indian classical, jazz, rock and what not but in spirit it is not a folk song mixed with other forms but it is just a folk song!! (This is one reason why lot of people don't get it nowadays!!!). Same thing happens to a carnatic song. It can have a bass guitar, a jazzy sax but eventually remains a carnatic song. The unification he achieves is unparalleled. Even in the great Tiruvasagam, I never tire of repeating this argument, what he does is to keep the bhakthi bhavam intact inspite of all the orchestration. So if you keenly listen to 'Tiruvasagam' for a few times, what remains with you is something that touches your soul and not the grand orchestration. I remember the video in which Raja says that he has not given grand music or tried to worry about how note combinations can be done etc, but that he had given simple music which will support the emotional content of Tiruvasagam. I was then thinking, "who is this man kidding?" Wasn't this grand music? It was only after multiple listens did I understand what Raja said. The music was 'just right' for Tiruvasagam.
This is one reason why I am not one of the advocates of 'Raja needs to move away from film music' stand. For Raja's aesthetics is based on emotion and films with the cliched or new situations provide this. Based on these emotions Raja weaves his cloth, bringing to bear every musical form that fits. And the various musical forms come in only if they can service the emotion at hand. Otherwise they are ruthlessly discarded. This is something which we need to talk about as well. As how Raja does not get anything in, just to prove that he can do it. It has to with his aesthetics. Very rarely do you get such an amazingly talented artist who always wants to be true to the intended emotion and doesn't do anything just to display his skills or knowledge. We could see this in the older MDs and Raja is a true follower of these great MDs.
Hi friends,
I noticed a sudden spurt in the no.of hits in my blog yesterdayand was led to this page by the sitecounter.
The kind of discussions taking place here has left me spellbound and no words can describe my amazement.
Since it is a discussion on the Talas used by Raaja, I request you all to go through these as well:
http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/2008/04/laya-raja.html
http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/2008...-musician.html
Of course, it will be nice if you go through all my posts in the blog and give your feedback.
Henceforeth you can also see me actively participating in the discussions in this forum.
Thanks!
Raj[/url]
Welcome Raj Keep posting here :)
I saw your blog link in the Prakash pov blog spot and followed u there and shared that with ppl around here. vishayam therinjavanga sagavaasam engalukku romba thevai... welcome..Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj4376
Raj,
A warm welcome. Your blog is in my google reader so I don't miss you :) Though I must confess I haven't left a comment there. As Jai says, the more knowledgeable people discussing music, the more everyone gains.
Thanks Sanjeevi, Jaiganesh and Suresh.
I am just a tiny drop in that ocean called ILaiyaraaja..
Shall try and share whatever little knowledge I have!
Music and Mathematics- a lot of similarities apart from the M factor.
Music is full of Mathematics and, Mathematics is full of Music.
Starting from the seven notes, can we think of anything in music without numbers(and therefore mathematics)?
The Melakartha system in Carnatic Music follows mathematics.
The aalapana before a ragam follows mathematics.
The Niraval- followed by the swaraprasthara- follows mathematics.
The Tani Avartanam follows mathematics.
(Please note that I have taken Carnatic music as a sample and let this not be misconstrued that I am praising one form of music.All systems of music follow mathematics)
When it comes to Film music, I cannot think of any composer other than our Maestro who has played around(literally) with mathematics and calculations.
His recent composition in Nandalala is yet another diamond in the crown.
In his compositions, he has used Cross-Rhythms(Endrendrum Anandame-Kadal MeengaL), Aagaaya Vennilaave-Arangetra VeLai), two types of rhythms alternating (Vaa VeLiye-Paadu Nilaave), count starting in the beginning and ending only as the songs ends(Kaadalin Deepam Ondru-Thambikku Endha Ooru).
‘Kai Veesi Nadakkura Kaaththe’ is another experiment with the modern instruments, the synth beats giving an illusory feeling.
It appears as though the beats are being missed by the singers while in reality it is not so..
It appears as if the song starts after ‘samam’ but it is not so.
What he has done is actually very simple.
The composition is set in the 4-beat Chatusra Eka Talam and the beats follow the simple ‘ta ka dhi mi’ pattern.Only difference is the sharp sound produced at the end of second beat.
The Pallavi also gets extended with the freewheeling ‘ sanchaaraas’ that rise like a crescendo.
The 4-beat count in the vocals finally finishes only in the end while the percussion keeps following the 4 beats.
Maybe Raaja sir wanted to convey the philosophy of life where we keep doing things on and on without realising the fact that the Divine binds us!
There are other significant aspects in this composition.Generally, I do not like the latest synth sound and beats in his music.But the sound in this song is very unique.
The prelude starts with a kind of a folk instrument and the music that follows is mesmerising.
Rarely does Raaja sir repeat his interludes.In fact, he was the first one(and as far as I know the only one) who composed different pieces for the three interludes-(yes..there was a time when we did have three stanzas and three interludes!).
But here, the piece sounds so beautiful that one does not even realise that it is repeated.
It spruces up the entire song.
The entire composition is tender, complex, and deep but simple.
Like the subject of Mathematics ..
Like the Breeze that blows swinging its arms..
Raj,
:thumbsup: Lovely post and I liked your comparison with mathematics. It so happened that incidentally I also had posted reg Raja's music and mathematics in another thread.
Now I need to listen to 'kaiveesi' keeping your inputs in mind.
Could you pl. give me the link to your post on the same subject?
Thanks!
Raj
Raj,
This is here: http://www.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic....=asc&start=240
This is the thread where we are discussing about Raja's fusion and I wrote about how Raja does his own theorems under the usage of instrument part.
'PalliyaRaikkuL' from Bala Nagamma is another classic example of his usage of various patterns in the same talam.
Very recently, I analysed the song in my blog and I am reproducing the part related to the tala patterns:
The third interlude is meticulously arranged with beguiling layers of rhythmic patterns.
The beats of the Melody-Rhythm ensemble are:
1. Ta - - Ta - - Ta - - - Ta – Ta - -
that is only the 1st, 4th, 7th,11th and the 13th beats are played.
This pattern continues 5 times with the strings in the background..
We hear only the tuned percussion in the following patterns:
2.Only the even beats are played now: - ka – ka – ka - ka
3.The next pattern is : Ta – Ta - (12 times-played twice)followed by ta ka ta ka dhi mi ta ka twice in ‘mel kaalam’ (faster mode).
The first part (ta ka) is played in ‘Usi’ that is only the odd beats (ka) are played.
This pattern is played twice.
Note that the previous pattern (2.) has only the even beats while the next one has only the odd beats.
4. The next pattern is ta ka dhi mi four times with only the ‘ta’ and ‘dhi’ played in the fourth time(twice).
5.Fourth pattern –ta ka dhi mi ta – dhi mi (4 times)
6.The last pattern-ta ka dhi mi (4 times) followed by ta - - -.
It unravels the wonders of the raga and the tala beautifully..
It captures the entire gamut of human emotions..
It takes us to an ethereal world..
Now, who is the real magician?
உன் இசை அத்தனையும் தேன்..
Your music is full of honey..
Raj,
Too late in the day (or shall say too early in the day) to listen to this song. Will do it first thing tomorrow. Good writeup as usual.
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00060.html
Horrible film by RKSelvamani and very obscure dhandam, vulgar lyrics, Telugu dubbing.. All not withstanding
listen to jing jikka song for the innovative rhythms of Raaja...
Never heard such a rhythms since Maarugo marugo from vetri vizha..
@Raj - Odam ondru from Thirupura sundhari (donn which year?) Fits in xactly with Rabindra sangeet pattern
I thought the 'jing jinka' was part of a song. Didn't realize that it was the starting of the song!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiganes
irir123: This song is dedicated to you :lol:
Thanks for the 'jing jikha' song. Raja freaks out on the thalam.
Chengathir Kaiyum - Sneha Veedu
This song is actually in Misram Taalam pattern (7/8) , what seems to be happening in the prelude is it goes in Chatushram or you can see 8 beats per cycle take place 10 1/2 times which is 84 counts and the song begins on the 85th count ..Now if you see 84 is perfectly divisible by 7 as well :) ..From the 85th count onwards it goes in perfect Misram. So in effect Maestro has just played with the rhythm by fooling us and look as if the song is in Chatushram when actually it is not ..Super creativity by the Maestro ..He has not only used his laya skills but also has showcased his mathematical skills ..Hail the brilliant Maestro ..
To illustrate , i feel it works out like this
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
Sa Sa Sa Ri ~ Ga ~ ~
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
, , , , , , Sa Sa
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
Sa Ri ~ Ga ~ Ma ~ Pa
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
Ma ~ Ga ~ , , , ,
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
, , , , , , , ,
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
, , Sa Sa Sa Ri ~ Ga
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
~ ~ , , , , , ,
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
Sa Sa Sa Ri ~ Ga ~ Ma
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
~ Pa Ma ~ Ga ~ , ,
Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
, , , , , , , ,
Ta Ka Di Mi (4)
, , , ,
Total =84 which is divisible by 7
From then on it goes in perfect Misram
Chengathir Kaiyum
Sa Pa Ga Sa Ri Sa Ri
Ta Ki Ta Ta Ki Da Mi
Another thing which i found it is the humming melody in the prelude also goes only in 7s - Humming(14 counts) + Humming(14 counts) + Rest (14 counts) and again Humming(14 counts) + Humming(14 counts) + Rest (14 counts) =84 divisible by 7&14..Oh my gawd , such wonderful division of the beats absolutely brilliant stuff.
Interesting catch in the song as additionally explained by Kalyanaraman Gopalan..
Maestro has simply transposed the Misra chappu thalam in the prelude. Try putting the thalam in reverse when the prelude starts and you will suprised ! What an out-of-box thought process.
The rhythm of the preludes goes like this:
THA KA DHI MI
THA KI TA
THA KA DHI MI
THA KI TA
and Misra chaapu thalam is exactly the reverse which results in Viloma Chaapu :)
Kaiyil Veenai - Vietnam Colony
Adi Thalam Misra Nadai
I would have listened to this song so many times before but never knew it was in Misram. I realised it only recently while listening to this song via a bus travel from Chennai to Bangalore. With Raaja you always discover new things :)
Swaram : Sa Ri2 Ga3 Ma1 Ma2 Pa Da2 Ni3
Ragam : Hameer Kalyani (i think so)
Thalam : Adi Thalam Misra Nadai
Kai Veenai
Sa Ga Ri | Ri Ma1 Ga ~
Ta Ki Ta | Ta Ka Di Mi
Yai Yenthum
Ga Pa ~ | Ma2 Pa Ma2 Pa
Ta Ki Ta | Ta Ka Di Mi
Kalai Vaani
Ga Ma1 Ri | Ri Ga Ma1 Ga
Ta Ki Ta | Ta Ka Di Mi
Yai sustain
Ga ~ ~ | Ri ~ Sa ~
Ta Ki Ta | Ta Ka Di Mi
The same lines repeats again.
In effect 1 Avartana of Adi Thalam consists of 8 Aksharas
1 Akshara = Ta Ki Ta Ta Ka Di Mi
(For eg Kai Veenai is one Akshara , Yai Yendhum is another Akshara)
Each of these Aksharas is divided into 7 Maatras which is the Misra Nadai (Ta Ki Ta Ta Ka Di Mi = 7)
To illustrate
Kai Veenai = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Yai Yendhum = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Kalai Vaani = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Yai sustain = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
again repeat
Kai Veenai = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Yai Yendhum = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Kalai Vaani = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Yai sustain = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
So totally when we add , we have 8 Aksharas and 56 Maatras resulting in Adi Thalam Misra Nadai.(8*7)
thus 1 Avartana (Cycle) = 8 Aksharas (Adi Thalam) = 56 Maatras (Misra Nadia) .
skr,
Brilliant post on thalams. :clap: :clap:Yes, as you said, we could easily be misled by just counting few bars and concluded as Chaturshram (or Adi thaalam in first), unless you count fully to get that last four. Sameway, second one unless you know the Maatras, it would have been said as just Adi Thaalam, nothing about the Nadai aspect. Very education posts. Thank you so much. Please pour in more of such brilliant findings.