IR Compositions: Lyrics and Situation

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

Plum,

Believe me when I say that I typed the same logic in my reply and then was not so sure about it since I hadn't watched the movie and deleted that line. I can resonate with your argument since that was exactly my line of reasoning as well :)

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sure, it is pretty straight forward logic illainA enakku thONi irukkAdhu :-)

Be that as it may, tarali rAdhA with mridangam for rhythm to close out lines (a la Mayile Mayile un thogai engE, another hamsadhwani - is it just coincidental or it is part of patterns in Raja's mind? One more for Rajasaranam's case study) stands out as a melody. Lyrics are sonorous, sit on the tune beautifully, and are meaningful, too. Pulamaipithan(?)'s punjai uNdu is in-your-face with its socialism message - and lamenting in tone - while tarali rAdhA is more positive and optimistic in its tone while giving the same message- given the optimistic outlook of Udhayamoorthy/Suryanarayana Sastri, perhaps another subtle way in which Rudra Veena turned out to be a more integrated effort than UMT.

Sarna,

Thanks. The more you listen to Raja the more you become his fan(atic) :)

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

"Jaane Do Na" - It failed because of its complexity. idha naan yendha court la venaalum adichu solluven!

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indha "complexity" dhaan enakku suththamaa puriyala :confused2:

with my zero music knowledge, I feel Ilayaraja songs are more simple and enjoyable than anyother md songs :)

ok paravaa illa.... neenga ellaam continue pannunga :) I will be a silent reader 8-) adhudhaan indha thread'ku nalladhu :)

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

..
The argument against this would be that the poet would write in a meter that most suits him and what he feels suits the situation and thus constrain the musical structure that the MD can provide. To an extent you can observe this is old songs. I mean you will rarely find any old song which flows so tortuously as 'Thanga Changli Minnum Painkili' or 'Vizhiyil Kadai Ezhudum Neramidu'. That is because the poet cannot conceive such a musical structure. There were exceptions of course but by and large this would have been the case.

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Suresh ..very good point on why we need to have tune first-lyrics later approach as well.
Considering that our people dont listen to instrumental music (for purely compositional appreciation). This is the only approach that serves music first.

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

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This is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.

rajasaranam,

Can you also provide a "great" reason why other lyricits were not able to give better output under IR's supervision? (Tip: IRs compositions were so complex and beautiful, many of the lyricists brain went numb, so IR had to write the lyrics himself!!)

How come VM lyrics were good even after he left IR? (VM got national award for Sangamam).

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Originally Posted by app_engine

Sureshs65,

That's exactly the point. Many who complain about the lyrical quality of IR songs turn a blind eye to 'veththalayappOttENdee's, 'mukkAbulA's and 'hai rabbA's - selectively quoting a rare 'Ambal-mouvval' & 'vaseegara un nenjinikka' kind to project how MSV kept it high - IR dropped it dead - but ARR / next gen revived it etc.

The fact is most current songs -where IR is no practical factor - have abysmal poetic quality - littered with thanglish and other unintelligible words; one has to dig deep to find gems, if any!

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app_engine,

I do accept all the songs from other MD are not great and we come across gems only rarely. But here is why I complain about IR.

1) The number of songs with good lyrics in IR's music were much lower than what other MDs were able to deliver (Ratio) - of course, post VM breakup.
2) Didn't IR intentionally use sub-standard lyricists when he had the option to use good one? (VM in 90s, Thamarai recently)
3) Above all, it is widely believed he did force his words (and voice) in his songs.

As musician IR is a genius - no doubt. :clap: But as a team player, he sucks a big time. :huh: As you mentioned in another post, you can just take it or leave it.

Unfortunately some people like me are not able to take it.

genesis

நீங்க முந்திட்டிங்க.. உங்க கருத்தினை அப்படியே ஆமோதிக்கிறேன்.

சங்கமம் மட்டுமில்லை.. ரோஜா, கருத்தம்மா, கன்னத்தில் முத்தமிட்டாள் என நான்கு தேசிய விருதுகள்.. ராஜாவை விட்டு விலகிய பின்பு.. ராஜாவுக்கும் வைரமுத்துக்கும் விருதுகள் ஒரு பொருட்டே இல்லை. கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.

மெட்டுக்குப் பாட்டு என்பதில் பிரச்சினையேயில்லை. பெரும்பாலான இசையமைப்பாளர்கள் பெரும்பாலான பாடல்களுக்கு மெட்டுக்கே பாடல்வரிகளை அமைக்கச் செய்திருக்கிறார்கள். ராஜாவின் பிரச்சினையே "ஒரு பாடல் ஆசிரியர் பாடலுக்குத் தேவையில்லாத வரிகளை நீக்கத் தெரிந்திருக்கவேண்டும் " என்ற (உலகமகா) சிந்தாந்தத்தில் தொடர்ந்து வலம் வருவதே.

ஒரு அழகான காதல் பாடல் ராஜாவின் பார்வையில் எப்படி சீரழிகிறது பாருங்கள்.

வள்ளி வள்ளி என வந்தான் வடிவேலந்தான்
புள்ளி வைத்து புள்ளி போட்டான் புதுக்கோலம்தான்
சொல்லித்தர சொல்லிக் கேட்டு தினமும்
சொல்லித்தந்த சிந்து பாடினான்
வள்ளி இன்ப வள்ளி என்று தினமும்
முல்லைச்சரம் கொண்டு சூடினான்

இந்த வள்ளி, புள்ளி, சொல்லி இதுலேயே ஜல்லியடித்துக் கொண்டிருந்தால் வாழ்ந்துடும் தமிழ். இதுதான் ராஜாவின் பார்வையில் ரொம்ப எளிமையான தமிழ், சந்தத்துக்கு பொருந்தி வருகிற தமிழ் என்றால் ராஜாவின் புரிதலை நினைத்துப் பாருங்கள். வாலி ராஜாவை "எனக்கு வெண்பா சொல்லிக்கொடுத்தவர்" என வாயார புகழும்போது எனக்கு திருவிளையாடல் நாகேஷின் "ம்ம், இதெல்லாம் நல்லா பண்ணு, ஆனா பாட்டுல மட்டும் கோட்டை வுட்டுடு" என்ற வசனங்கள் தான் நினைவுக்கு வருகிறது. இதுபோன்ற மலிவான பாடல் வரிகள் ஒன்றல்ல..இரண்டல்ல.. நிறைய.. இதெல்லாம் பார்க்கும்போது, வைரமுத்துவின் வரிகள் உங்களுக்கு அலங்காரமாக இருந்தாலும் "சந்திரனும், சூரியனும் அஞ்சல் காரர்கள்" போன்ற காதல் பாடல் வரிகளை ரசிக்கத்தான் மனம் விரும்புகிறது.

புதிய தலைமுறை கவிஞர்கள் நா.முத்துக்குமார், தாமரை ராஜாவை விட்டு கொஞ்சம் தள்ளியே இருப்பது நல்லது. உங்களின் தனித்துவம் ராஜாவின் ஆலோசனையால் என்றைக்கும் சிதைந்து விடக்கூடாது என்ற நல்ல எண்ணத்தில்.

எங்க தமிழ் ஆசிரியரிடம் சமிபத்தில் உரையாடிய போது, என்னிடம் நான் தீவிர ராஜா ரசிகன் எனத் தெரிந்தும் "உங்காளு இசையில் எனக்கு தொகுதியா ரொம்ப பிடிச்சது எதுன்னா, பாரதியும், திருவாசகம் இசைப்பாடல்கள் தான்.. அது ஏன்னு உனக்குப் புரியும்"னு நினைக்கிறேன் என நக்கலா பேசினார். மறுப்பேதும் சொல்றதுக்கில்ல என தலையாட்டி வந்தேன்.

All the lyrics in bharathi are not by bharathi, IR, got pulamaipiththan to write one amazing song which I consider the best lyric in a decade. Also, other songs in bharathi were handpicked by IR and some were cut-and-paste of more than one bharathi song. Same kind of hand-picking went into thiruvaasagam.
What does this mean ? IR is serious about lyrics if the subject is serious. Only problem is you have to write lyrics to IR's style and specification. Lyricists with ego have fallen out with him. But serious lyricists still respect him. There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him. In kodambakkam nobody can question or ask him to change the notes, but when he is in Hungary, if Lazlo Kovacs, even smiles while reading his score, IR gets too nervous/selfconscious and rewrites it.
Agree, he probably blew quite # of opportunities to provide lyrics, he also blew opportunities to record the songs with better sound engineering. So many things like this exist. I think if at all we positive people, we should just enjoy the good output from him whenever that happens.

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

வள்ளி வள்ளி என வந்தான் வடிவேலந்தான்
புள்ளி வைத்து புள்ளி போட்டான் புதுக்கோலம்தான்
சொல்லித்தர சொல்லிக் கேட்டு தினமும்
சொல்லித்தந்த சிந்து பாடினான்
வள்ளி இன்ப வள்ளி என்று தினமும்
முல்லைச்சரம் கொண்டு சூடினான்

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Great example. This is one song where IR forced his words and voice!!

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Originally Posted by kiru

There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him

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I knew this was coming.

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Originally Posted by genesis

(Tip: IRs compositions were so complex and beautiful, many of the lyricists brain went numb, so IR had to write the lyrics himself!!).

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Originally Posted by genesis

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Originally Posted by kiru

There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him

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I knew this was coming.

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Originally Posted by genesis

(Tip: IRs compositions were so complex and beautiful, many of the lyricists brain went numb, so IR had to write the lyrics himself!!).

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I think I substantiated myself ..take it or leave it.
If you already have an opinion on this and not willing to change it, there is no point in posting here.

So far we have...

1. Raja spoils lot of songs by singing, he is not fit to be a singer for example all the thiruvasagam songs...
2. Raja can only compose for mettukku pattu, he spoils the songs by composing the song first
3. Raja does not have poetic sense, he spoils the song by selecting the unimaginative lyrics.. thanks for exempting bharathiyar songs and thiruvasagam..

next
in between few praising lines about one or two songs...
expect something really big after the praise...you can expect the most comtempt statements like 'seerazhikirathu' etc.,

what is next .. ..

4. Raja spoils the movie by scoring dominating BGM
5.Raja spoils th Tamil Flim Music by using unnecessarily complicated orchestration...
6. Raja spoils all the carnatic ragams by using in movies...
( be mindful and careful here..the above three are from a well known music teacher in the class of balamurali krishna et al..)

few praising words about a song...

then...
7. Raja cannot compose without basing on any ragams..he copies ragams and most of the times spoils with combining with other raagams .

8. Raja not only spoils tamil but also malayalam, kanadam and Telugu..somebody has to do something to stop this..this is disaster to all the south indian languages..
..he is against dravidians...

then few praising ..with sugar coating...

what a pattern...whether we can predicate IR's song or not...but we can predict what is next from this pattern..

wow...pleae note that all these are from a very..very.. hardcore die-hard IR fan...Raja should be very proud to have such a great objective fans... Vazhga IR pugazha..Vazhga IR fans...
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by venus05

wow...please note that all these are from a very..very.. hardcore die-hard IR fan...Raja should be very proud to have such a great objective fans... Vazhga IR pugazha..Vazhga IR fans...Thanks.

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:) Why should raja be sad or unhappy about such fans? Ivanga ellorum thalaiyila thooki vachikittu aadinaalum seri, excellent analysis panninaalum seri, or yedhavadhu arai vekaatuthanamaaga ularinaalum seri, ellamae avarukku onnu dhaan ...doesn't matter to him at all.."as said in the poda poda punnakku song line" - "enna thoothuravan, thudhikiravan enakku onnu"...

oru silarukku ingae genuine aadhangam....aanal vegu palarukku idhu neenda naal yerichal...30 varushama oru yeliya gramathaanai 'character assasination pannikitirukaanunga...The poor genious is ripped apart by media and pseudo fans in his own land...may be the 'hard core fan' tag could be part of the 'sugar coating' you have mentioned about....

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.

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எந்த கிணத்துக்குள்ள சார் இருக்கீங்க? ஓ வைரமுத்துவோடது வா?

எனக்கு வேண்டியது இசை மட்டுமே, வரிகளுக்கு நான் முக்கியத்துவம் கொடுத்ததில்லை மற்ற இசை அமைப்பாளர்கள் பாடல்களிலும் அதை தேடியதில்லை. ஞானி, யானி மேலும் புகழ் பெற்ற சிம்பொனி இசை அமைப்பாளர்கள் எல்லாம் தனி வகை.

எனக்கு எதாவது நல்ல கவிதை வாசிக்க வேண்டும் என்று தோன்றினால் இருக்கவே இருக்கிறது 'பாரதியார் கவிதைகள்" போன்றவை என்னிடம்.

நல்ல வரிக்கு இசை தேவை இல்லை :)
நல்ல இசைக்கு வரிகள் தேவை இல்லை :D

While I too admire Vairamuthu's lyrics and I do enjoy the wonderful work he had done with Raja and Rahman, there is certain truth in what Rajasaranam has said. One of my friend calls this 'templatization' You can almost see the sort of template that Vairamuthu uses in many songs. And given the argument that Vairamuthu's lyrics will turn around any song, why is it that other music directors have not been working with him continuously? Since the films that Venki mentions all have music by Rahman, what happened to Vairamuthu after he fell out with Rahman? And what was the movie for which he got a national award which had music by someone other than Raja or Rahman? Doesn't that prove that Vairamuthu requires a good music director to get the best out of him? Whether we like it or not, Raja has moved ahead with his music and inspite of all competition is still making music on his terms. Unfortunately after moving away from Rahman, Vairamuthu has not had a great innings. That's the truth, however bitter.

While people liberally quote words from Raja's songs, which he has not written, why do they forget that Vairamuthu also wrote 'Urvasi Urvasi'? More importantly, as a_e had argued earlier, why not quote the songs with 'great' lyrics that other MDs have consistently given. You mean 'muZhgada shippae friendshipA' is outstanding imagery? You mean 'dost bAdA dost, dostku illai vAstu' is amazing? How about 'nanbA nee oru ilavasa taxi?' or 'vAdA mapila, vazhapazha topula'? or 'kalyanam than kattikitu odipolama etc'? Compared to all the junk that comes up 'vaLLi vaLLi' sounds like outstanding literature :) So how come no other MD is blamed for downright bad lyrics in their songs while Raja is blamed for decent lyrics?

Countering what genesis says about ratio of good and bad songs, I can say that the number of songs which had downright bad and trivial lyrics was very very less when it came to Raja's songs. So if you take such horrible lyrics as a metric, you will find that Raja has done far better than the other MDs in this regard. As anyone is management knows, depending on what metrics you choose you can make something appear great or bad!!

I am not arguing that all Raja's songs have great lyrics. All I am saying is that when you choose a yardstick use it for everyone. You turn a blind eye when it comes to the current crop of MDs because the songs are 'fun', 'cool' etc and don't bother about the quite good lyrics that Muthulingam wrote in Virumandi for that story-song, or what Muthulingam wrote for Avatharam, 'thondru thotu' etc but selectively quote 'vaLLi vaLLi'.

So here is the question to you venki. Can you go ahead and quote the songs of Raja which you felt the lyricist had done a great job, especially in the post Vairamuthu period? Maybe that will be good to analyze. Try it and you may find some nice ones. And BTW, venki, how come your Tamil teacher did not mention Vairamuthu?

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

Doesn't that prove that Vairamuthu requires a good music director to get the best out of him?

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There are 2 sides to any coin. Did any tamil lyricist get awrad other than VM under IR music? VM got only once for Mudhal Mariyadhai, and we know what happened.

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

why do they forget that Vairamuthu also wrote 'Urvasi Urvasi'?

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Urvasi Urvasi is by Vaali.

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

You mean 'muZhgada shippae friendshipA' is outstanding imagery? You mean 'dost bAdA dost, dostku illai vAstu' is amazing? How about 'nanbA nee oru ilavasa taxi?' or 'vAdA mapila, vazhapazha topula'? or 'kalyanam than kattikitu odipolama etc'? Compared to all the junk that comes up 'vaLLi vaLLi' sounds like outstanding literature :)

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This is Apples to Oranges comparison. Most of the movies irrespective of MD have couple of songs like you quoted. The point here is "valli valli" has good tune, why not complement it with good lyrics and voice? If IR wants to do only music, why even bother to add lyrics and voice?

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Originally Posted by venus05

what is next .. ..

4. Raja spoils the movie by scoring dominating BGM
5.Raja spoils th Tamil Flim Music by using unnecessarily complicated orchestration...
6. Raja spoils all the carnatic ragams by using in movies...
( be mindful and careful here..the above three are from a well known music teacher in the class of balamurali krishna et al..)

few praising words about a song...

then...
7. Raja cannot compose without basing on any ragams..he copies ragams and most of the times spoils with combining with other raagams .

8. Raja not only spoils tamil but also malayalam, kanadam and Telugu..somebody has to do something to stop this..this is disaster to all the south indian languages..
..he is against dravidians...
.

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Never, Never... I never said anything like these. I have also not seen even IR's best critics say any thing like this. #4-6 above seems to be from some "vaitherichal" MD... it is best to ignore him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanjeevi

நல்ல வரிக்கு இசை தேவை இல்லை :)
நல்ல இசைக்கு வரிகள் தேவை இல்லை :D

---

Unfortunately 90% IRs work falls neither under "symphony" nor under "kavidhai". We call them Thirai Paadal...

For me paadal is a team work.. It needs good music, good lyrics and good voice. Whatever arguments you make, by the end of the day all of the greatest Tamil film hits have a great combination of all three.

Damn! An innocent remark on IR's preference for colloquial has been turned into an occasion for lurking specimen to open season.
Of all the MD's in tfm history, ir is one who has deep knowledge of tamil literature and can write decent lyrics. Who else? T Rajender maybe.

What the hecj, are we to believe that arrys, rahman and co. have love for great tamil lyrics? Except for agenda cases here no one would say that.

Nadodi thendral had very good lyrics written by...well, never mind.

That IR prefers the colloquial cannot be a stick to beat him with.
Vairamuthu has mountains of mediocre vervai and meesai-asai lyrocs. Countless rahman numbers suffer from poor lyrics and poor tamil by the singer. If any one md in tn can do justice to tamil, that is IR. For that, he'd need poetry of the calibre of bharathi or thiruvasagam. If he doesn't rate current kavignars, that is his prerogative. Using this to glorify tanil-killing mds and beating Ir is ridiculous

genesis,

That is exactly my argument. There are two sides to any coin and you are selectively seeing one side. I just posted to show that we can selectively do that with regards to Vairamuthu as well as venki has been trying to do with Raja. I don't have any great regard for the national award. How many did Kannadasan get? If you know the answer to it, you will not worry too much about national awards. My aim in that para was to show that we can have two sides to the coin and depending on who is your favourite, you can according see that side.

From whatever I know, 'Urvashi' is by Vairamuthu. Here are a couple of websites which say so.
http://www.mohankumars.com/lyrics/index.php?m=s&lid=591
http://www.shyju.com/index.php?showtopic=6822

Again I was quoting the songs against 'vaLLi vaLLi' just to show the selectivity. I mean, does no other MD have a good tune with very normal lyrics, maybe not pathetic lyrics? I am sure you can find it in every MD. I just exaggerated the comparison. What about 'Asai Asai' song or 'Un Samayal Arayil'? Very template based. Even 'kannuku mai azhagu' is so much template driven as far as lyrics are concerned. I am probably quoting some of the better songs. There are so many more songs of many MDs which have a nice melody, driven by mediocre lyrics. If we can start a thread showing how nice tunes of many MDs do not have the quality of lyrics matching the tune, that is fine. Making it out that it only happens in Raja songs is what I am against.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by genesis

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanjeevi

நல்ல வரிக்கு இசை தேவை இல்லை :)
நல்ல இசைக்கு வரிகள் தேவை இல்லை :D

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Unfortunately 90% IRs work falls neither under "symphony" nor under "kavidhai". We call them Thirai Paadal...

For me paadal is a team work.. It needs good music, good lyrics and good voice. Whatever arguments you make, by the end of the day all of the greatest Tamil film hits have a great combination of all three.

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Neenga yaarunga antha percent mudivu pannuvathu i mean 90%. Argue but do not give statistics :lol:. However you can safely tell the percent of IR+VM is greater than IR+nonVM songs. Ithu kooda illaina, Kannadasan, Vaali aduthu Vairamuthu-nu eppadi sollurathu :)

சுரேஷ்,

வீம்புக்காக பேச இங்கு வரவில்லை. ரஹ்மான இல்லாமலும், வைரமுத்து தனது கவிதையால் அடுத்த தளத்திற்கு எடுத்துச் சென்ற படங்கள், பாடல்கள் நிறைய. அவரின் வரிகள் கன்ஸிஸ்டன்ஸி எனப் பார்த்தால் என்றைக்குமே சோடை போனதில்லை. இது வைரமுத்துவிற்கு சிபாரிசு அல்ல. ராஜா போன்று அவரும் அவரது துறையில் ஒரு வித்தகர்.

என் நினைவிலிருந்து..

சிகரம், அழகன், வானமே எல்லை, செல்லமே, உள்ளம் கேட்குமே, வேதம் புதிது, ஒன்பது ரூபாய் நோட்டு, தென்றல், அமராவதி, ஆசை, மஜ்னு, அந்நியன், யூத், சாமுராய், ஷாஜஹான், துள்ளாத மனமும் துள்ளும், அமர்க்களம், இயற்கை, குஷி, பூவெல்லாம் உன் வாசம், முகவரி, நிலாவே வா,உயிரோடு உயிராக, பிரியாத வரம் வேண்டும், என்னவளே, பூமகள் ஊர்வலம், பாண்டவர் பூமி, செந்தூரப்பூவே, மொழி, பொல்லாதவன், அயன், பாடும் வானம்பாடி, ரோஜா கூட்டம், பார்த்தேன் ரசித்தேன், ஜெமினி..

கடந்த இருபது வருட ராஜாவின் இசைப்பாடல்களில் வரிகள் ரசிக்கும் படியுள்ள பாடல்களை நீங்கள் கேட்டிருக்கிறீர்கள். நாளை நிச்சயம் எழுதுகிறேன்.

venki,

What you say fair enough and I am not doubting Vairamuthu's capacity at all and I agree that in his field he is a great man. All I am saying is that if we use the yardstick of success generally associated in the film industry, the graph of Vairamuthu is not rising. My argument was that we can conclude either way: that Raja's music output got diminished due to lack of Vairamuthu or the other way around :) The movies where Vairamuthu's lyrics are good, the music may not have been great. I don't think you blame Vairamuthu for the lack of a good tune. All I am saying is that Raja has given good music and maybe the lyrics have not been upto a great standard. Why blame Raja for that? If Raja is expected to say that he will not work with substandard lyricists, shouldn't we also expect the poets not to work with sub standard music directors or not write words for tunes they consider substandard? I guess that sort of argument will not take us anywhere. So why blame Raja for bad lyrics which he didn't write or blame Vairamuthu for a bad tune, which he didn't conceive.

There have been films like Mozhi where definitely Vairamuthu's words have reached and touched a lot of people. Whereas lot of other films you mentioned, the words probably didn't reach as wide an audience. I am sure not many from the general public would quote words from these movies as they would from say, from the songs of IR - VM or ARR-VM combination. (Don't take my word for this though. I have to confess that in many of the movies quoted by you I can hardly get through a song or two, with some exceptions. So my conclusions may be wrong.)

I am waiting for your list of songs with good lyrics. It will be nice to see that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

சுரேஷ், கடந்த இருபது வருட ராஜாவின் இசைப்பாடல்களில் வரிகள் ரசிக்கும் படியுள்ள பாடல்களை நீங்கள் கேட்டிருக்கிறீர்கள். நாளை நிச்சயம் எழுதுகிறேன்.

---

suresh, enna koduma sir idhu ....unga request'kaaga avar room potu yosippaaru pola....raajavin veechu vairamuthuvin veechai vida kuraivu dhaan endru yearkanavae ivaru soopera vaai mozhindhirukiraar...adhu padichadhukkae thalaiyellam suththi mayakkam vandhiruchi ...adutha post'la enna kodumai arangera pogudho... :lol: ippavae kanna kattudhae :omg:

Just digressing away from Tamil into Telugu... the situation is somewhat similar. You have excellent lyricists like Veturi and Seetharama Sastry - who can be extremely poetic at one time and pedestrian at some other time. This is true when they work with Raja or any other MD.

For ex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPRMj7n3-JE . I am sure the lyrics elevate the tune to a greater height and adds to the overall appealing of the song. That was by Veturi for Raja.

Listen to Seetharama Sastry for KVM here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8J8C...eature=related . In one word, this is out of the world.

But listen to this out of the world tune with pedestrian lyrics by Veturi (I think it gels well with the movie, though :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Lvyizuf_Y

Digression:

sivasub,

What you say is very true. Recently I watched a TV singing show in which a small kid sang 'manmada rasa', the Telugu version of the Tamil song with the same pallavi line. After she finished, Veturi, who was one of the judges asked her if she knew who wrote this song. When she expressed her ignorance he told her, "The joker who wrote the song is me. It is not a song that will do me proud but sometimes you need to write such songs based on what is demanded from you". I think he is pretty open about it and doesn't have any pretensions.

One more digression :)

sivasub,

Sitarama Sastry seems to have written with the hunger of a person wanting to ensure his first outing was a success. A what a success it proved to be. The lyrics are wonderful though very tough!! You have to sometimes consult a dictionary or another scholar to get the meanings right. It is something more peculiar to Telugu I think, where there is a certain degree of difficulty in words. My friend calls it 'proudam'. You don't find that in Tamil.

ok, my digression:

Since when this 'national award' thingy has become a gold standard for determining quality of "lyrics' ? :lol:

I can't believe that most (rather any) of those "judges" can appreciate poem of even one language and to expect them to compare many poems of a variety of languages and judge the best is simply expecting too much. That too by simply sitting through a few sessions where "engilees captions" are the only window (I would recommend 'kadalOrakkavidhaikaL' DVD for anyone who want to appreciate Thamizh poem with engilees sub-titles :lol: Nauseating!)

In addition, most movies with great songs / better lyrics are not even presented to the NA panel. Only a few savvy producers even take them there - i.e. those with "connections".

Please don't bring down the stature of VM by quoting NA's! He has got great credentials otherwise :-)

End-digression

Thanks Suresh. In my opinion, a song has to be looked at as a project. If project plan is considered as the theme of the movie, then the situation becomes the critical path in which the task of completing of a song will be with the architect, the director, the music director - the functional expert, lyricist and choreographer - team members and of course cinematographer - documentation specialist. Any miss anywhere will have the project not being executed as per expecatations.

app_engine, While what you say is true, it is equally applicable in all fields. So you cant say VM was the only who was left out. I would always consider VM equivalent to Veturi (dont pounce on me for this :) ). Both have immense talent to be wasted on insipid songs / situations / tunes. If you say VM has to get NA for all songs he has written, there may be many claimants for that

sivasub,
:-)

Actually you're only supporting my point and why should I pounce on you - especially when I don't know Telugu :-) If you please read my posts in the previous pages, it'll be easy for you to see my actual bias :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanjeevi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.

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எந்த கிணத்துக்குள்ள சார் இருக்கீங்க? ஓ வைரமுத்துவோடது வா?

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In a way I have to agree VM's influence is more than IR's...
IR = 1976-1992 ( 16 years) - 3 National awards.
VM = 1980-2000 (20+ years) - 5 National Awards. Actually his output in Tamil was very low between 1986-1992, because of his break-up with IR. I do accept VM's work has not been that great recently.

venkkiram is not in well. You are... in IR's well. Tamilnadu, India, rest of the world moved past IR long time ago. There are few people like you still hang on to him. You listen his songs, his BGM, dig-up his rare works and enjoy every minute details in it. I do not say that is wrong. That is your choice.

But I can not accept when you insult/degrade others to praise IR. Let us see some of the statements made by people like you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது.

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This statement insults VM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiru

There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him.

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This goes one step more to insult every one working with IR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by app_engine

Musing more on this 'lyric' aspect, I think the degeneration started much before him, when vAli started off in a big way with his "eulogising" MGR (and KaNNadAsan's prolificity took a beating due to his personality clashes / politics and various other factors by the 70's). The more heard movie songs of 70's had no appreciable lyrics or music but political agenda on horn speakers, IMO. Forcing mEttukkudi's to go to lyrics they could not understand / appreciate much (indhi / abba-boneyM).

That way, it won't be wrong to say that IR kind of brought back attention to Thamizh lyrics once again to TN people :-) Except that save a brief association with VM, he possibly couldn't get opportunities to work with extraordinary poets.

---

This statement insults every poet from 1970s, just to praise IR. Why see only see MGR/Sivaji songs? What about Balachandar's movies in 1970s?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plum

If any one md in tn can do justice to tamil, that is IR. For that, he'd need poetry of the calibre of bharathi or thiruvasagam. If he doesn't rate current kavignars, that is his prerogative.

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Basically plum says IR does not respect current poets. (And that is true!!)

You are the same people who trashed, insulted, ridiculed ARR for a long time, for only one reason: He dethroned IR. Only recently, these insults have come down after Oscar. (Now, do not stamp me as ARR fan, I like every one's music.. I like IR, ARR, HJ, Deva, VS and more)

Praise IR whatever way you want, but do not insult/ridicule others.

Sanjeevi - Most of the above "you" does not refer to you, but generally refers to a group called "die-hard IR fans". This is not a personal attack on any one. If anyone feels that way, I am sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by app_engine

ok, my digression:

Since when this 'national award' thingy has become a gold standard for determining quality of "lyrics' ? :lol:

I can't believe that most (rather any) of those "judges" can appreciate poem of even one language and to expect them to compare many poems of a variety of languages and judge the best is simply expecting too much. That too by simply sitting through a few sessions where "engilees captions" are the only window (I would recommend 'kadalOrakkavidhaikaL' DVD for anyone who want to appreciate Thamizh poem with engilees sub-titles :lol: Nauseating!)

In addition, most movies with great songs / better lyrics are not even presented to the NA panel. Only a few savvy producers even take them there - i.e. those with "connections".

Please don't bring down the stature of VM by quoting NA's! He has got great credentials otherwise :-)

End-digression

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app_engine,

I accept NA is not the best yard stick to measure. (I just did in the previous post again :roll: ). But how can you counter absolutely impossible comments like these?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by genesis

This statement insults every poet from 1970s, just to praise IR. Why see only see MGR/Sivaji songs? What about Balachandar's movies in 1970s?

---

How many KB songs of 70's were in 'kOlAmbi speakers' or 'tea stalls' or such public places? Only AIR partronised some of those. There again, all weren't "great poems". ( என்னடா பொல்லாத வாழ்க்க'க்கும் 'வள்ளி வள்ளி என வந்தாளு'க்கும் என்ன பெரிய வித்தியாசம்?)

It's not just my personal opinion about the state of TFM in 70's but an acknowledged "general perception" that it was dismal. People found it "low class" to even associate themselves with Thamizh songs but preferred to be identified with indhi or abba/boneyM. Whether die-hard VM fans and others accept it or not, VM himself would not have shot into such prominence had IR not elevated TFM into a different platform.

Why, even VM had some mentoring by IR at his entry period, can he or anyone deny it? As the details of ladAi between him and IR are not known (possibly will never be open to public), I don't want to comment on either of them for breaking that alliance.

I'm not a big fan of VM's works with ARR - NA or otherwise, they just pale in comparison to the numbers he worked with IR in nativity & poetic beauty (It's possible IR-VM songs didn't have much karuththu but I don't care about karuththu biz in movie songs at all - nativity, smoothness and beauty are what I look for in poems, karuththu is optional).

Again, if all v.ram, g.sis want is for us to acknowledge that ir was an arrogant prick, a half talent propped up by circumstances and vm, I say let's acknowledge and stop this here.
What I find funniest is the claims on vm being more influential than ir on tn movie scene. Apparently, ir died in 1992 accorfing to g.sis. Adhukkappuram tamizh padamE parkala pola. Why argue with such a vidhandAvadhist?

Quote:

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Basically plum says IR does not respect current poets. (And that is true!!)

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Hello, dont put words in my mouths-u :-)
There is a if somewhere in my statement and that means it is conditional logic. Raja doesnt respect lyricsits-nu only people who have scanned his mind can tell. Maybe you did. Maybe you have special gifts - I dont.

This arbitrary killing of Raja's career at the 1992 mark is a hallmark of certain anti-Raja campers. There has been great music from him since then - Hey Ram, GURU if you want absolute standards, and many more if you merely want "excellent". Anniyan, Youth ellAM great kavidhai-amam but IR post-1992 oNNUmE sollikaradhukku illaiyamam. And we should believe these guys are honest critics-Amam.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

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Ah come on. It is one thing to say that VM's best was with IR but completely another thing to say the above statement.

He has written beautiful lines for Rahman like the memorable கிழக்குச் சீமையிலே

காயப்பட்ட சொந்தத்துக்கு கண்ணீர் விட்டா
சாயம் போன வாழ்க்கையிலும் சாரம் இருக்கு
இவுக பொழப்புக்கு நீர்வார்க்க தான்
ஈசான மூலையில மேக...ம் இருக்கு

And if the colloquial-simple-beauty card is played I find it hard to look beyond:

வாசப்படி கடக்கையில வரலையே பேச்சு
பள்ளப்பட்டி தாண்டிபுட்டா பாதி உயிர் போச்சு

To claim that VM's was no good without IR is not a balanced statement at all.

btw மேற்பார்வை ??

Dear friends,
PL listen IR's new films and the lyrics.

Film - Jaganmohini

SLong - Nilavu varum neram

Whos the lyricist???

Sanga yilakiya vaarthaigal ellam
azhaga use panni,
IR composition la oru paatu..

Lyrics told the character of the period...

Tats IR...


starting lines nothing spl. edho reason irukum..

Stanza is very nice...

oru yilakiya kavidhaiku IR compose pannina madhiri.

kaatu aruvi kootai vandhu
aravanaika vandhadhae..

idharu pin varum lyircs in 2nd stanza

very nice.....

velai pola
vizhigal paaiychuma
valigal thangavilai
meendum oor prvai parthidu
very varthai ilai

comings lines are nice...

unnai seravae
mannil vaazhgiren
indha naal varai

andha purathil
undhan arugilae
sondha paravai anen
anjanagalai theetum
vizhiyilae unnai
theeti ponen
ven puravi megam polavae
ilamai konjam
varambu meeratum
manmahdan maiyinal
maiyal kodu mannava

Ingae IR in rasanai and invovement ai feel
pannugiren......

Yes Usha. I am also quite impressed with the lyrics in JM. I had written about that when I wrote a brief review of the songs. Unfortunately, the CD is not out in Bangalore and when I checked a couple of web sites, they didn't list the lyrics. One review had mentioned Vaali, so I guess he must have written atleast one of the songs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

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Ah come on. It is one thing to say that VM's best was with IR but completely another thing to say the above statement.

He has written beautiful lines for Rahman like the memorable கிழக்குச் சீமையிலே

காயப்பட்ட சொந்தத்துக்கு கண்ணீர் விட்டா
சாயம் போன வாழ்க்கையிலும் சாரம் இருக்கு
இவுக பொழப்புக்கு நீர்வார்க்க தான்
ஈசான மூலையில மேக...ம் இருக்கு

And if the colloquial-simple-beauty card is played I find it hard to look beyond:

வாசப்படி கடக்கையில வரலையே பேச்சு
பள்ளப்பட்டி தாண்டிபுட்டா பாதி உயிர் போச்சு

To claim that VM's was no good without IR is not a balanced statement at all.

btw மேற்பார்வை ??

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Agree with that. This is another extreme position in this debate. I think much of IR's lyrical decisions are based on structuring his ideas musically, and fitting in words accordingly, poetic beauty be damned, although he can, if the occasion demands, do justice to great lyrics as well. If a lyricist, I'd be extremely frustrated with IR. But to use that as a stick to beat him with is unwarranted, as is happening with certain agenda-driven parties here. It is extremely laughable tos ay that VM's influence is from 1980-2000 while IR's influence on TFM was between 1976-1992. Eh? Even today, you see his influence looming like a large shadow, sometimes to the detriment of the movie in question, in the last couple of years in superhits and critically acclaimed movies.