The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath

Dear Badri,
I just wanted to tell that there are incidences in Mahabharata where the human race is divided based on birth and more over what each one has to learn was determined by some upper segement of society.

The first one is Ekalayvan and the second one is Karna (when his Guru sleeps on his lap, he withstand the pain of insect penetrtaing his body. Guru finds him as sathryan and curse him). I accept that this two incidences don't spoil the greatness of an epic. I also accept there are soem great moral and old mythicated history to be learned from some of the stories, but at the same time we have to accept that there are some of the incidences which indicate a bad system followed by our ancesters and our mythical Gods also recognized such system.

I placed my posts here when I found here every one tries to give a holy cover to all the incidences even to the suffering of common man. Killing of thousnads of common man in Kurusethra war and their sacrifice (what for!) is not at all given a thought. Thousands of people died for the interests of few selected ones. Thats where I feel sad.

About mahablai, Onam, underworld kingdom etc, if we remove the mythical aspect and assume Mahabali and Indra as two kings and Vamana is the just a powerful being who act in the interest of Indra, it will be different.

If here everyone accepts Mahabaratha characters are totally mythical ones and are just part of their religious belief system, I don't have any objection on their belief system.

r_kk: You seem to react to the "holy" cover!! For someone who doesn't seem to believe in the entity called God, I should think the word holy doesnt mean anything! After all, the dictionary defined holy as somethign associated with divinity. When you dont believe in divinity, then there is nothing holy at all!

When there is nothing holy, in your eyes, why would you object to someone calling something by a non-exisitent term? I find it funny and ironic that you would react to something that has no personal relavance whatsoever!

beacuse the system of dividing human by birth is still alive and it is being major disease to our country. I tried to react against this so called holy cover to the myths which indirectly supports such belief. I am not against any individual belief but against a system of society which takes its basis from such so-called mythical stories.

Division based on birth!! Interesting.

Even in this time and this era, there are divisions based on a person being born a black as against a white in many countries. Oh, do they have a mahabhartha as well?

Even in this time and this era, there are divisions based on a person being born poor or rich in many countries. Surely, all of their societies too must have been based on the Mahabharatha!

Even in this time and this era, there are divisions based

on a person being born in one religion or the other!
on a person being born blind, or deaf
on a person being born a genuis or a moron
on a person being born male or female
.......

My dear r_kk - we live in a world where there are divisions. Let us face it. Communism, which tried to destroy those divisions and bring about an equal society, crumbled! It is the capitalist society where the divisions of rich and poor are so clearly demarcatd that is being embraced all over the world.

Don't blame the Mahabharatha, or any other religous text or religion itself for that. Blame man's greed for it. Which incidentally is the exact message of the Mahabharatha. The greed of the Kauravas saw to their destruction.

Moral of story: Don't be greedy!

Funny, how the very story and the very belief that seeks to cure society's illness gets branded as a virus!

Besides, all of these mythical stories seem to highlight that Ekalavya or Karna or Mahabali - all those "unfortunates" that got discriminated because of their birth ultimately got salvation from the Lord Himself! A rare blessing that even the Pandavas did not get!

Now, doesn't that tell you anything? Doesn't that tell you that no matter if humans persecute you for your birth, ultimately, you are rewarded and considered great for your sacrifice, that the Lord in Heaven does not distinguish between people of births?

No one can argue that any of the characters of the Bharatha are perfect. Neither Drona, nor Bhisma nor the Pandavas. They are all human beings with their mistakes. And with all their failings, they did a lot of wrong things. People like Ekalavya were wronged in life, but the story goes on to assure, men may not understand, men may cause harm, but the Lord doesnt, thereby conveying the powerful message, "When the Lord himself does not judge anyone based on birth, why should man?"

And you would seek to criticise this, dear r_kk? Woulnd't that be like a "self-goal"? and defeat your whole argument?

[tscii]Dear Badri,
Heaven or salvation after death or good life in next birth are questionable, and it can not considered as gift to those who had suffered in the current life. It is like showing some unrealistic benefit for the people those who had/have been treated as inferior. For a non-believer like me, Salvation to Ekalayva or underworld to Mahabalai is also similar. It may mean totally opposite to the believer.

As you said, division based on birth is existing in all parts of society in one or other form (religion, color, caste, wealth etc…). It doesn’t mean that we should not argue against the root cause or fight against it. As on today religions are one of the major causes for many social problems. If you want just to put blame on the greedy people or their wrong understanding of so-called holy scripts and considering the religion as holy, then we are intentionally and cleverly avoiding the effort to understand the root cause of problems.

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Originally Posted by sbadri99

Don't blame the Mahabharatha, or any other religious text or religion itself for that.

Funny, how the very story and the very belief that seeks to cure society's illness gets branded as a virus!

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If I quote from Bhavath Gita or other religious books to show how the religions divide the people and how ill treatment of the another human being was/is made easily digestible (you please read the pro-slavery scripts of American civil war, racial discrimination Jews in Germany before Hitler era, Periyar/Ambedkar books on religion based suppression etc etc), I am sure it is going to be major controversial discussion and may go out of this subject. If you think religious beliefs are intended to cure the illness of society and all the issues are mainly because of human’s greed, then we have strong difference of opinion in the basic itself.

In order to aviod devaition to current subject, I am not expressing my views here. We can continue in detail after opening of "religious section" in the hub.

dear r_kk: I used the concepts of salvation etc because that is what the holy texts themselves have shown as a reward.

The point which I tried to highlight, and which you have missed is not what the reward itself is. It is the fact that they were rewarded. Do you understand where I am coming from, r_kk?

I still insist that is is Man's greed that led him to commit many errors. Seeing this greed, religion tried to set it right by making the oppressed Ekalavya as the real hero, without antagonizing the powerful men who were committing the errors.

When Drona and others ill-treated Ekalavya, no one could point out the injustice. Why? Because they were powerful influential people. Yet the author Vyasa has so skillfully composed the epic and written it in such a way that everyone knows what low levels Drona had sunk to in doing injustice to Ekalavya. At the same time, Vyasa also made it seem that Ekalavya was actually honored and rewarded. Although from a societal stand point, he was ill-treated, he was given a place of honor.

That is the best Vyasa could do given the politico-social scenario of those days. I think of the Ekalavya episode as a satire, a parody! Like a Bernard Shaw or a Cho drama. Maybe the episode never happened, but in writing it, Vyasa exposed the so-called upper class!

Don't you agree, r_kk? Seen this way, doesnt it seem as though the religous text called Mahabharatha is actually giving a lesson to man in good social behaviour?

Dear Badri,
I agree that Mahabaratha indicates that Ekalayva and Karana were rewarded for their goodness (if the salvation is considered as reward). Good persons got good and viseverse.

But I fear that such broad conclusion may make a misleading path, in which accepting sufferings or oppression of common human beings in the current birth, is assumed to be compensated after death. It will misguide the suppresssed people to accept their misery as fate which is attached to them in their birth based on "paava/punniyam" and be easily exploited.

I would like to quote from the words from Gita (the essence of entire epic) to make you to understand why I am writing against Mahabaharata quoting a single incident. My argument will be about the core cream and how it had/has been used by small segment of greedy people as a suppressive tool. I will come to this subject later.

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Originally Posted by r_kk

Raghu,
it is sad to note that you look at the removing the finger or killing of Ekalayva in "kings" or "mythical perspective". Look from a people those who had been considered as inferior because of birth.

It is similar to Vamana avadharam where a great king who donates all his weath to his people, was killed by "vamana" on request of Indra. It is more sad that the people of his own kingdom is brainwashed to believe as greatest event.

Why can't you look from common man's perspective?

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Dear R_KK

That posting was not mine,but from some acharya, in fact in Gita and other Vedic Vedas, it is stated one's cast is based on One's occupation, such as Chatriya, Bhramana,..etc. just like we have doctor, engineer,..etc

but during the process of evolution people have misunderstood this and created an EVIL cast system and DISCRIMINATION based on that

Sudhama Sir,

What are your VIEWS of Ekalvya and his Moral Values/Dharma, I feel his importance in the EPIC has been neglected and was not given due credit?