Islamic Invasions ! Hindus Persecutions !

Badri,
Agreeing to ur points about Sanatan Dharm.

But...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badri

As a Moderator, I request Ealavar and others to think about what I have written and then honestly tell me if they still feel this thread is needed.

---

I do feel that these things are lessons for us to learn from...For ex when Pritviraj Let Gori leave, because he didn't have an Army..which came back and dug his eyes out.

I feel that The Hindu Genocide still goes on Today...

I know that it's typical coming from me, but I also know that Eelavar and Srivatsan will agree with me on that.

I think that this thread should stand, mainly as a reference thread for The Hub on The Atrocities that Hindus Have gone through in the past, since it is relevent to our Culture. We will Discuss the incidents without Offending any Present Community in India. This Thread only took this trend after One Hubber (not pointing any fingures..) Unneccerily brought in Hindutva WITH THE INTENTION to change the course of the thread. :)

Agreed that Sanathan Dharm doesn't encourage holding grudges...this is more of a lesson. After the amount of lives that people who come under Sanathan Dharm have lost, I think that these things should be talked about, and even preached about..not to feed hatred into anyone's mind about anyone else...but to let people know about this sort of gory, bloddy dark History....and I assure you that this thread will no longer offend anyone as long as Hindutva (which is irrelevent, there's no reason to discuss Hindu Organizations, when talking about what the Hindu Population has been through, since no one is going to try to justify any sort of Mass Murder) isn't brought into this again. :)

I know that the Decision is Unanimous..but this is my Opinion. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badri

both Srivatsan and Eelavar have forgotten some of the basic tenets of the very same "Hinduism" of which they are so proud.

---

Mr. Badri, did I ever mentioned that as a retreat to the massacre of Hindus, same number of Muslims be killed or something like that in of my posts in this thread?

I recognize the killings as just killings and I have the guts to call it so...and I fear no one in diong so....and I do not think this is against Sanaathana Dharmam.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badri

That is because the religion (Sanathana Dharma, to be precise) always taught tolerance and forgiveness. Sanathana Dharma never taught its adherents to hold grudges. It did not teach them to forever hold on to bitter memories of the past. Rather, it exhorted them to dismiss everything as being unreal and not worth wasting time and energy over, and instead focus on betterment, unity and harmony, both in personal lives as well as in the community and nation.

---

Many people have started telling this that Sanaathana Dharmam doesn't ask anyone to go and fight and forgive all....I want to ask all those, including you, Mr. Badhri, that is that what is the only moral said in Sanaathana Dharma.....? If you belive Mahabharatha is one of the main pillars of Sanaathana Dharma go and refer Vana Parvam, and even Bhagawath Geethai. I can quote you lots and lots of example in our past where such just indignation have been recorded!

And as a moderator, if you feel I am going against the rules and regulations of this forum, you are free to remove my posts or even me from this forum and I dont care.

I feel it is my birth right to call Spade a spade (or atleast what I feel to be a spade) and I dont care the consequences some times!

Ofcourse, I am not very Secualar or Democratic, but I dont think, I have ever crossed limits in this thread, if I have,please show me :!:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by srivatsan

Many people have started telling this that Sanaathana Dharmam doesn't ask anyone to go and fight and forgive all....I want to ask all those, including you, Mr. Badhri, that is that what is the only moral said in Sanaathana Dharma.....? If you belive Mahabharatha is one of the main pillars of Sanaathana Dharma go and refer Vana Parvam, and even Bhagawath Geethai. I can quote you lots and lots of example in our past where such just indignation have been recorded!

---

The Sanatana Dharma values, as expressed in the Mahabharatha and the Geeta speak about addressing wrongs being done to society due to Adharma. They speak of a Dharma Yuddha then and there to stop Adharma, not a retribution, not a revenge for past wrongs. They do not, by any means, tell you to reach back far into the history to recollect ancient wrongs done to you.

And even if you do recollect, of what avail is such an endeavour in those who come from a culture of Kshama or forbearance? What do you hope to achieve by this recollection? To stir a dharma yuddha against ancient perpretators?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surya

...not to feed hatred into anyone's mind about anyone else...but to let people know about this sort of gory, bloddy dark History.

---

Haha, that is like saying here, drink this poison, but remember, I am not giving this to kill you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surya

After the amount of lives that people who come under Sanathan Dharm have lost, I think that these things should be talked about, and even preached about..

---

Oh, and how does talking about that help us in our lives today?

Oh I know, the familiar argument against this - by that token then one should not even speak about the Freedom Movement; all of history would be meaningless.

That is not my intention. But the way this thread has been proceeding is not like a clinical recounting of historical facts.

If you all can assure me that this will merely be a historical thread, then fine, we can go ahead. But if it is going to infused with personal emotions, taunts and other such, then we have to reconsider the need for this thread to continue

Sorry, Kannan , for taking specific names.

I admire your views Badri and Rocketboy. Surely there are some people still around who see religion as just a conceptual tool to enhance the quality of life.

I can even forgive communalism but I cannot forgive hearless discrimination. I sincerely believe 95% of the Muslims are of Indian origin who were discriminated heavily in the past by the Manu-Smirti type of administration. They converted into Muslims because they were classified as "non-hindus" or in-fact "nothing at all". They hoped to get some recognition by conversion. But that did not help them. Instead, with the fanatic Hinduism growing among the already established communities, they are becoming targets for mild to severe attrocities.

It looks for me , as a on-looker, as though they received a "anhilation sentence" several thousand years back and are simply waiting in death camps.

All the posts from the so called "Hindu Nationalists" in this thread never acknowledged this basic fact and that is why I asked them to go ahead with their discussion on the basis of "The Truth" to see what comes out of it.

I respect life more than religion. Badri, you were right in your earlier post about my motive. I wanted to disrupt the complacent and self-praising attitude of people in this thread. They had the privlege to see and live this age of Information Technology. But that should not remove the basic moral values which their education should have imparted.

I do not care if they were against Islam. That I can call it as religious fanatism which prevails in almost every part of the world and appears only as natural as patriotism to the soil. But what I am concerned is the face of the fantacism in India, which in several ways unique in terms of severity and duration. This cruel tendency is aimed at "people" or "lives" and not any ideology or religion. They will be tortured even if they were Hindus, Muslims or Christians. Simply that seems to be their fate. In every way this is the real Genocide by any definition and the largest, in scale and severity, even considering the anhilation of the Jews in all the history in all all nations.

The situation is only becoming worse everyday. With FDI money pouring-in the disparities have become so wide that any moment they can be all wiped-out en-masse.

None of them are even close access the internet or any technology to counter or refute the postings in this thread. I assumed that only I was there for those un-heard voices and in every post of mine, I was only trying to point-out this cruel nature in us which has perculated into our religion and is giving us immunity against the normal conscience.

I was never a religious person in my life. I read the scriptures as nothing more than than I read a news paper. But still I have got this passsion for the weak and the immobile. How can that be explained ? I have spent lakhs of rupees for those unknown faces in the brink of extinction. I pick-up on anyone who is atrocious on them. I am socially and economically a well previleged and not related to them by blood or sin. And so where did this behaviour of mine come from ? Surely not religion because I am not religious. So I believe there is a innate moral conscience in everyone of us. Religion is just a reflection of it. And any absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion in some ways.

No one knows if God created men. But we know for sure man created god for the good or the worse. (Eelavar and his kind, please do not argue on this as you already accepted that Ganesh/Hanuman were symbloically created).

Eelavar, since you are a mathematician, I am not telling you anything new on the following. Didn't you know the logic and maths does not work as you near the boundaries of our Universe ? Did you not know there is not one but multiple Universes which cannot be approached with any of your logic or mathematical equation ? With multiple Universes there should be atleast "One Univeral Truth" attributed to them which again calls respect for Plurality and individuality against Universality ? Did you not know that Einstein's relativity theory is beyond maths and logic and is based on a unexplained but proved fact that "nothing" travels faster than light ?

What an irony, that while I was supporting Pizzalot's views so far, in this post where he appreciates my views, and states further views of his own, I have to disagree!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pizzalot

I sincerely believe 95% of the Muslims are of Indian origin who were discriminated heavily in the past by the Manu-Smirti type of administration. They converted into Muslims because they were classified as "non-hindus" or in-fact "nothing at all". They hoped to get some recognition by conversion.

---

Many converted because they were put to the sword, my dear fellow! Certainly not 95%. The Muslim invasions of the Slave Dynasty and later on the Mughals resulted in mass conversions, arising primarily out of force and the fear thereof.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pizzalot

And so where did this behaviour of mine come from ? Surely not religion because I am not religious. So I believe there is a innate moral conscience in everyone of us. Religion is just a reflection of it. And any absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion in some ways.

---

One lone example is not proof of a theory. You are attempting an unscientific extrapolation based on insufficient data. Cannot accept this.

Yes, there is an innate moral conscience, which is to a large extent, fostered by religion. Misinterpretation of religous dictates is the fault of man, you cannot fault the religion for that. On that count, yuor statement that "absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion" is wholly unfounded.

True, the persecution in the name of religion is only fanaticism and is against humanity but sadly few religions are proof against that.

The Crusades, the Inquisition etc are proofs of that evil percolating into Christians and Muslims. Hindus alone are not to be blamed for that.

Pizzalot, what we need is a balanced view. Sadly, even you are getting carried away! No religion can be blamed for man's selfish and greedy interpretations and misdemeanors.

That is the reason I said this thread has no validity left in it. I am yet to be adequately convinced of this by people who have posted thus far, including yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badri

What an irony, that while I was supporting Pizzalot's views so far, in this post where he appreciates my views, and states further views of his own, I have to disagree!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pizzalot

I sincerely believe 95% of the Muslims are of Indian origin who were discriminated heavily in the past by the Manu-Smirti type of administration. They converted into Muslims because they were classified as "non-hindus" or in-fact "nothing at all". They hoped to get some recognition by conversion.

---

Many converted because they were put to the sword, my dear fellow! Certainly not 95%. The Muslim invasions of the Slave Dynasty and later on the Mughals resulted in mass conversions, arising primarily out of force and the fear thereof.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pizzalot

And so where did this behaviour of mine come from ? Surely not religion because I am not religious. So I believe there is a innate moral conscience in everyone of us. Religion is just a reflection of it. And any absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion in some ways.

---

One lone example is not proof of a theory. You are attempting an unscientific extrapolation based on insufficient data. Cannot accept this.

Yes, there is an innate moral conscience, which is to a large extent, fostered by religion. Misinterpretation of religous dictates is the fault of man, you cannot fault the religion for that. On that count, yuor statement that "absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion" is wholly unfounded.

True, the persecution in the name of religion is only fanaticism and is against humanity but sadly few religions are proof against that.

The Crusades, the Inquisition etc are proofs of that evil percolating into Christians and Muslims. Hindus alone are not to be blamed for that.

Pizzalot, what we need is a balanced view. Sadly, even you are getting carried away! No religion can be blamed for man's selfish and greedy interpretations and misdemeanors.

That is the reason I said this thread has no validity left in it. I am yet to be adequately convinced of this by people who have posted thus far, including yourself.

---

What I am saying is man came first and then the religion.

Do you not agree Badri ?

I do agree with you on that, love.

I also believe that God came first, and then Man and when Man attempted to define a relation to that God, he invented religion.

It is a shame, no matter what the race is, that is persecuted in the name of this religion. Genocide of any race is a matter of sorrow, not only Hindus. Which is why I believe there is no reason to specially pull up Genocide of Hindus and cry over it.

Next step: While there could be God and we could be his creation, don't you agree when man invents religion, it could be an invention of his convienience ? I am talking about all religions. Not just Hinduism.

Religion in my view is actually a set of beliefs...in others words man's perception of how life and worship of god should be established rather than having any traces of what God told us.

God did guide us along the way but that was due to us not being able to realise what to do and how to progress.

God told us this
1) Be good to yourself
2) Do good to others
3) Never think of evil
4) I will help those who help themselves
5) See all as your brothers and sisters

As for Man they created their own identity..their own rules and made a havoc of all of them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pizzalot

Next step: While there could be God and we could be his creation, don't you agree when man invents religion, it could be an invention of his convienience ? I am talking about all religions. Not just Hinduism.

---

Which is why you have to look at how religions were created. They were not created just like that.

A master of sacrifice and love called Jesus Christ founded Christianity, which is based on love for all beings

A master of renunciation and wisdom called the Buddha founded Buddhism, which is based on right conduct

Mahavira., a similar great being of reunciation, with no trace of selfishness, laid the foundation of Jainism, which is even today based on Ahimsa, non-violence

A whole slew of sages of undimished wisdom of the Absolute gave to us the principles of Sanathana Dharma.

Pizzalot, yes, religion was invented by man, but what sort of men? The men that you see today, and blame today? Or those illustrious souls that had no thought of themselves, but only love for their fellow-beings, only thought of alleviating their sorrow and suffering?

Again, I reaffirm my view - do not blame religions for their misinterpretation by the hands of the selfish and the self-centred. Relgions were not created for the convenience of a Jesus or a Buddha or a Manu. They were for all mankind, and aimed at curbing that same destructive tendency that you are now lamenting.

Manu's smritis are not fully known. People are looking at select portions of those and decrying it all in entireity. The laws laid down for the rulers to follow, for the teachers to adhere to, for the soldiers to stick to - these are based on Dharma or righteousness.

No fault can be ascribed to them. Lay the fault at man's Mathi (mind) and not on Matha (religion)