Oh, gapla oru post. Sleep well Rajasaranam.
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Oh, gapla oru post. Sleep well Rajasaranam.
There are apparently two sufferers.
1.TIS-USA
& 2. TM
(It looks pretty obvious that wellgate has gained at TM's expense, going by the 5 lac figure which is peanuts. And it's a strong probability that they keep IR in good humor -either by giving him film chances or money or both).
However, the suffering of TIS-USA cannot be compared with that of TM. TIS-USA is an affected party, without any say on the business of the end-product. Anyone who loaned to a venture (please read 'loan' and not 'equity') should at least be compensated by product if not money...i.e. the `japthi' style.
Here, they are asked to sell by getting for a dealer-price and then recover through the delta from end-user-price, effectively making them `sales agents'...(Even though some inexperience, lack of shrewdness, lack of discernment has landed them in this condition, it is a fact that they are the sufferers out of a collaboration with TM / IR). This is totally wrong - both legally, ethically.
It's both TM & IR (or his org) to blame for this condition of TIS-USA. That Mr Gaspar of TM states he is pained helps one to understand his feelings, but it definitely does not remedy the situation. IMO, if he has given assurance to TIS-USA of a repayment, he owes it...if needed, it should be him/TM who has to take it up with IR/whoever it takes to sort out...rather than asking the public to buy CD's to help...(It's like asking `my friend has taken away my money, I'm in trouble, oor makkaL please help me by buying from my shop, whether you need the product or not')...
As for as TM's suffering is concerned, it's all in the business. They probably are not shrewd enough to handle business matters. All this talk of `let us forgive' is just covering up what they actually lacked in running a project. TO put things simple, the project has to be either their venture with IR as an artiste -an ambitious one at that. Or it is IR's venture and TM is handling the finance. appadi reNdum illAmal kuzhambi, kuzhappi, thaLLAdi irukkiRarkaL. adhilum mid way change of agreement vERu. Having agreed to that change, now they need to go and talk to IR & fight with him instead of telling the public about them forgiving IR. That's not correct.
He says 'I have transcended'...endha vidhaththil? By dumping CD's to TIS-USA to sell? Allowing someone to happily fraud, not one individual, but an org? Is TM not an org, or is it an individual? How can he let someone go if the crime is against a public charity org? How can one `transcend' by letting that happen? This is definitely not anything against individual...to transcend above...(Or does he feel that in any case public contribution dhAnE, let some filmi guys eat it...as long as I can show myself as a puNyavAn by "forgiving in public" and not having the backbone to fight with the filmi guys in all possible legal channels?)
I could not help but smile at reading that post by TM folks.. Seems like a childish attempt - i do not know the intention - I am surprised to read that TM was ready to deal with SONY. Sony's laywers would be far more slick than IR's .. that's for sure.. Anyway I am not familiar with the details so i do not know ! so i don't want to get into that issue!
OK. Totally different Subject !! Recvd "The launch of TIS DVD" from TIS-USA - apparently it is region coded so it would not play in my Sony DVD player.. was able to watch on the PC. Is this OK or somehow my shipment got mixed up with an India Shipment ? No big deal - just curious.
Vaiko's and Rajinkantha's speech were interesting ! Especially Vaiko's where he talks about the various subsections of Thiruvasagam and the selections chosen by IR for TiS. Do not miss it. I did not know that Hindu RAM was a Western classical Music buff as mentioned by IR in his speech.
Cheers
MSK
Sony and Saregama are just thrown in to impress upon those gullible, what TM could have done and how silly IR couldn't see it. Sony wouldn't have touched TIS if they couldn't make a big profit out of it like they do normally. Neither is IR going to sit back and let Sony make a huge profit assuming that TIS has that potential (I don't think TIS is that great anyway compared to what is available in world music arena, IR fans can fool themselves into thinking otherwise) . IR might prefer to take a risk taking control over distribution himself and fail than let someone else walk all over him. TM have no experience in music production which is very evident. Are they trying to cover up their inept by coming out as victims?
"viyajr, the royalty TM have to pay is gratitude. For being given an opportunity to take part in this venture. roll on the floor laughing!"
Yes I am ROTFLing right now. And what royalty does IR have to pay TM for helping him get his TIS released, because otherwise no one was ready to touch it with a 6-feet pole and it would have still been lying in the cans gathering dust just like his symphony 1 , Moods of IR and god knows how many more other albums that have not seen the light of day.
well viyajr, from what Fr Gaspar's letter states, it appears, that TM was more keen to bend backwards to get TIS released than IR was. Looks like IR was quite happy to not release it, but TM panicked instead of playing the waiting game. So isn't it obvious that TM had more to gain from its release. If not for TIS at this point in time, what else do they have to show. Don't make it like they were in a position of granting benevelence to IR and thus do his fans a favour. Laugh on the floor to this too!!!
viyajr, why do you assume that IR is desperate to release his work (knowing him he probably thinks he is doing you a favour by releasing them). he has proved that he can withold a product indefinitely if he wants to. a true creator will be happy with his creation irrespective of whether it reaches people. we may not hear many of his creations in his lifetime or our lifetime, but if it is significant it will present itself someday. some of the great composers' music never saw the light many years but eventually did.
TM was only a tool in the hands of a sculptor, you can laugh somemore on the floor, will definitely ensure you don't get up from that floor!! make sure you are comfortable though!
I am even beginning to suspect if the letter that is supposed to have come from Fr Gaspar to Yahoo Groups is a hoax. There is nothing there to convince me that it is from him. i am quite happy to be proved wrong for a start.
"Looks like IR was quite happy to not release it, "
Yeah right, thats why he called it his life's ambition, the fulfillment of his spiritual quest, the substitute for his unreleased symphony#1 and so on.
"Don't make it like they were in a position of granting benevelence to IR "
I didnt say that, you were the one who was making it look like IR was benevolent towards TM and they in turn owe something to him.. STILL. I never said that IR needed to pay royalty to TM for helping him get his life's ambition realized.
"viyajr, why do you assume that IR is desperate to release his work "
he mentioned it clearly as his lifetime ambition and even told his fans over at yahoo club that this was to be better than symphony+1,a worthy substitute when someone asked him about symphony 1. He even talked publicly at several places about it. And with constant questions about his non-release of symphony1 you would think he would be atleast a little desperate to release it this time, especially after projecting it as his ambition and going around giving speeches for mobilizing funds.
"he has proved that he can withold a product indefinitely if he wants to. "
he has only proved his ineptness in trying to find someone to release his work. And how do you know he is really happy that his work is still unreleased?
"TM was only a tool in the hands of a sculptor"
and without which, the sculptor couldnt have made his product.
"I am even beginning to suspect if the letter that is supposed to have come from Fr Gaspar to Yahoo Groups is a hoax. '
and I am beginning to suspect that you are probably IR in disguise. I havent seen any evidence to the contrary yet.
viyajr, i'll humor you more.
Life's ambition ends with its creation, and doesn't necessarily mean that it should be released. And I don't believe in such statements either nor am i impressed with statements like ' no more rebirths' - as though he can prove this.
he didn't go around giving speeches asking for funds. from what i recall there is one supposed speech in US when he spoke about wanting to compose thiruvasagam. Was is it under duress? was is a gimmick by tis-usa and TM to convince people to donate? i give my permission for you to roll onthe floor again!!
well, the sculptor buys the tool to sculpt. but the tool cannot claim that the statue belongs to the tool. once you buy the tool, then thats where its value ends. if not this tool, then buy another. the sculptor is still supreme. want to roll on the floor again??!!
am i IR in disguise? thanks for the compliment. but will defer the opportunity to rotfl this round. one more chance for you to humour me?
"I am even beginning to suspect if the letter that is supposed to have come from Fr Gaspar to Yahoo Groups is a hoax. '
vijayr says,
'and I am beginning to suspect that you are probably IR in disguise. I havent seen any evidence to the contrary yet.'
Vijayr, that was a good one!! manasu kashtathileyum, your post made me laugh!! thanks, You are always very impressive!! :D
rajasaranam..you call a spade a spade. It really boggles my mind, how IR, had the tracks, while TM was paying for everything. It looks, the kind Father, would dip into the pocket and hand the dough to IR to give it to the studio folks..hmm..sad sad ..sad.
Any of you guys want to join the yahoo groups, I started. Lets see what we can do about this.. even non-confrontationally..in a nice way. Merry Christmas Father :-(
Appada...11 days le ennennavo aayipoyirukku....
I have to make my own comments on this whole issue , my silence was not intentional time kidaikkale avvalo daan,
I sensed a different tone in TISK's post few months ago, I almost decided to post my comment about it in the thread, but finally sent him a PM, now it's time to post it
Sent :: Message
From: prabhudas
To: TISK
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:29 pm
Subject: From Prabhudas
I originally wanted to post this in the thread,
TISK,
A request,please read my post carefully, and any words in this post is not to create any controversies. It looks like you are very very upset ( I may be wrong and I wish I am wrong about presuming that) about the fact that the recognition of TIS_USA contribution to this monumental project is very much underplayed and it is probably true and I agree.
A few thoughts/comments, with whatever brief interactions/conversations/emails I have had with you, I probably know very little of your enormous , selfless efforts at every stage of this project, which amazed me then, amazes me now and forever, for one reason during the last two years u have not thought anything but seeing this project see the limelight sacrificing ur precious time and personal committments just for this one thing and I have repeatedly mentioned this thread about that. Thops and probably many others around u know better about ur enthusiasm,efforts.
But I always think that you have and will have special place forever for the mere association with this project in the history which I am sure u will cherish forever.
I am sure u never ever thought of recognition before u first started involving with this historical project ( if I didn't put my words properly please excuse me), as not one single post of urs in this thread ever ended without YIA!!, many have asked the meaning for this also (I am not a spiritual person, may be one day I will lead that path with Maestro's music), your involvement above ur personal committments in this materialistic world for this project is beyond recognition and perhaps for a devine cause and a devine reason as u always say YIA. I am not writing this for consolation, it pained me a bit to see ur genuine concerns after all these efforts and when actually the project is finally in everybody's hands (A person who is seen so energetic,jubilant even in SS' chandramukhi thread often,)
I hope I haven't hurt ur or anyone else's feeling with my above post
Thanks once again
( listening to "Pollavinayaen' right now and waiting for IR's "Namashivaya Vaazhga" line before "Maasattra sodhi" to squeeze the life out of my body everytime, like unplugging a massive robust machine from a power source with just 1 button in the flick of a second..Oh my God..... we need more and more Maestro despite this)
_________________
Long Live Maestro and his immortal music
-
Buy Original CDs/Cassettes please
Here is the reply from him for the same,
From: TISK
To: prabhudas
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:18 am
Subject: Re: From Prabhudas
Dear Dr.,
Thank you so much for your kind words. If by any means it sounded to be that I was personally upset of this lack of recognition, I want to set it right that it never was and is my intention. Otherwise, I would have involved myself in the contract and other things but my hurt was actually for the scores of selfless and faithful fans like you and so many others who readily came up to make this happen and when in one sweep, the whole thing has been swept aside, I was slightly hurt and that outburst was the result of that! But, I assure you that my respect and regard for this Great Man hasn't dwindled at all and I promise you that I will never do anything to hurt this project.
I will be more careful and be more restrained here after. After all, as you had rightly said, it is YIA! and who am I and where is my 'hurt'! Thank you so much for your kind words again!
YIA!!
I got associated with this project initially thro' Yahoo group Vijay before TIS-USA existed, infact, I sent my initial check addressed to MSK ( if I am not wrong, I think probably MSK volunteered as a Liason between Yahoo IR group and Donation from IR fans from USA, ) MSK, Meenakshi Sundaram Krishnaswamy , neenga illanna please forgive me. My better association with the project came when I missed IR's USA initial NJ fundraising visit, and in May 2005 thro TISK, I with NY Tamil Sangam were able to arrange NY fund raising event,
follows in next post
Kavin, Can you wait for IR yahoo group Dr.Vijay to post to the group this letter before continuing further? that's a wise thing to do!!
sure, will wait
guys there is nothing to talk abt it any more. why waste your time on IR/TIS. just forget it. Let IR score music for kooduvancheriyil oru appansamy and the like. lets get back to our normal life and forget IR and TIS and if possible all IR's 30 years of music.
"he didn't go around giving speeches asking for funds. from what i recall there is one supposed speech in US when he spoke about wanting to compose thiruvasagam. "
you are misinformed. There were atleast couple of speeches, audio clips were uploaded here. He also gave the reason as to why he wanted everyone to donate in response to a question from the audience - he said it was akin to building a temple.
"but the tool cannot claim that the statue belongs to the tool."
"but the tool cannot claim that the statue belongs to the tool."
what crap is this? When did TM say that TIS was its product? all its asking for is a fair treatment. Your so-called analogies are way off the mark including this sculptor-tool thing.
Dear Mr. 'vijayr',
It is better to leave Mr.'kavin'to live in his imaginary world. Please don't disturb him nor rebutt his desertations. We are not here to convince anyone. As Fr.had said 'there will be protogonists and antogonists and each one is entitled to deduce the truth as they see it.
All along, people were asking for 3 people to speak up [Tisk, IIR and Fr.J]. 2 have spoken. I thank Fr. for respecting my request and responding as he saw it.
I have nothing more to say.
Let's move on.
After all, There is ONE watching all these.
YIA!
And I contributed more personally with time and money as well as thro' many of my nontamil speaking Kannada, telugu friends who contributed decently ( BTW, my name is still missing from the donor's list, I am happy my friends names from NY, NJ area is in the list,)
Thro' the same avenue, I had an opportunity to interact briefly with IR , apart from my self gratification of having seen and interacted with the genious whose music has always played a predominant role in my life , I could only confirm his egocentric attitude a few times ( knowingly or unknowingly, that's probably how he has always been I think) which I had only read till then, still he could immediately again talk in the most modest way ever , so as MSK said, he probably could be good or bad, but definitely little eccentric, as many have known about him thro' media.
Now personally despite his creativity, talent and contribution to TFM and being a hero for some , Idealistic person for some, and a special position in my own personal life, I have always thought people in film industry are corrupted in one way or other, some even unknowingly because of being either too naive or some one else around them running their show ( this could be the case in IR too)
Fr.Jegath, I have had few phone conversations and met personally once in Chennai, he seems to be ( he is actually one, atleast for me) very well learned man but certainly me and many others would agree that he really put a llot of his personal time, efforts and money ( I am not sure how much or in what all forms, unless he shares that info in a public domain, he doesn't have to, but to be a honest way in making everybody believe with true figures), on the same note, me and many would agree that his or TM's experience in bringing a musical project from the time of conception to reaching people, is probably zero, they do not have prior experience , ( For people asking, not everybody has prior experience in starting a project, yes that is true, and because of this lack of experience the success rate and other outcomes will be definitely different than those with experience), with this big deficiency, the whole project attempt which in itself is first of it's kind in many ways,
1. project thro' donations from public ( OK with me , but the organizers need to be accountable, and I disgaree with MSK about the analogy with Khatrina or Tsunami funds etc, if it is a genuine charity org. they are totally transparent to everybody whether one donates or not, atleast in US and few other countries, and there are websites to check how the money collected exactly was spent by these organizations and they are monitored by IRS and Feds)
Genuine , I meant Red Cross and many such big ones, but ofcourse there are always scammers all around with any fund raising who play around, fooling with fake identities and giving feds and IRS also a run, most recently there was a practical joke with Khatrina Disaster how more scam artistes appeared on the web collecting funds even faster than feds coming for rescue operations), now if TM wanted to be clean and transparent if not as big as Red Cross, especially with more projects in pipeline, their website should have made every honest attempt to give a better picture from the get go till the project completion, everybody knows what a disaster the updating of the original TIS site was from the beginning, totally unprofessional and lack of experience speaking allover.
2. project funding thro' personal loans ( there might have been similar projects , but the endpoint , outcome, source and objective should be clear to the people doing themselves and to public, since a big share came from public also, in our case neither of them knew all these), again lack of honest and proper sharing of financial transactions is a big big minus. Public wouldn't have worried about personal loans but for just ridiculing depending on their own perception if no public donations were involved.
3. Project ambitions/endpoint totally either misconceived or reported misleadingly thro' media, fund rising events, user groups, forums ( numerous examples, money from project would be spent for futur TM projects, to be spent for IR's International college of Music, to be donated for Tsunami relief ( give me the biggest break here, why make statements when even someone had to make a contract agreement although at a later date under "DURESS", now who should believe this statement about contributing to Tsunami fund or making an agreement under " DURESS", BTW the definition of "DURESS" has too many meanings, one of them being "Constraint by threat" I don't know if KR on one side had a Gun and YSR had a Veecharuvaa on the other hand :roll:
So, TM or Fr.Jegath were too naive ( don't appear by his interactions in the past but appears so thro' his statement now ), in dealing with the agreements or financial transactions or copyrights thinking IR as a Saint or had some personal vested interests ( vested interests I mean both good and bad)
Some queries/comments for fr. Jegath's statement,
1."Reasons, I don’t intend to discuss in public" it's fine but it's like making a statement to tell people I don't wAnt to make a statemnet in public.
Due to lack of legal documentations at several stages probably he is in a position " mellavum mudiyame muzhungavum mudiyama", 2."Tamil Maiyam and Ilaiyaraaja Trust are holding joint copy rights, that too only for Tamil." if there was legal copyrights what prevented them in marketing the project in Tamil populated foreign countries Like many parts of Europe, Australia etc, again poor coordination, decisions made this only a dream, despite many volunteers from forum offering expertise in proper marketing ideas, it's too late now that many have illegal copyrights on the MP3 versions.
3."Tamil Maiyam doesn’t have rights for tracks or interpolation in to other languages".
why and how? If this was the original agreement and TM agreed then, there is no legal or personal accusations whatsoever that can be made on IR.
I remember TISK telling, how they had to cross several hurdles at several stages during the actual Hungary recording and final Sony studios master copying and mixing here in NY
The hungary symphony orchestra space rent and recording facility would'nt allow the thing to happen if the payment didn't happen in a matter of few hours at the last minute, and how a Texas based business man donated a huge amount and the money had to be wire transferred overnight etc...etc... and as many don't know then and now, IR was totally oblivious of the fact that there was a big possibilty of the entire session to have been cancelled due to lack of funds why... why? It wasn't a birthday party surprise cake to IR , what made TM OR TIS-USA to keep these things informed , (if IR also was going to be partner of copyrights) about the financial difficulties, I strongly doubt if TM was clear enough with IR himself with the financial constraints , difficulties and hurdles, for who knows, IR still may be thinking adaan ellam public money yai thane selavu pannanga, Welgate panam samadhichi TM kku kudutha enna kudukkalenne enna?
4."The agreement was signed under duress as IR had total control and possession of the tracks."
Phleaa...se, how come IR had total control, if every penny at Sony studio, Hungary , Bombay were being paid by TM presumably.
Anyway, instead of using words like " transcending" etc., If TM believes strongly with proper documentations legally they still can Tarnish IR's image for good reasons, if there is only any legal evidence that IR directly was the cause for the monetary losses , which I doubt given the scenario that TM as agreed for these eventualities not forseeing them.
Kiru, I can visit ur yahoo group, but what good the user group in itself would do, if nothing is transparent except for making statements with heavy language.
MSK and Kavin can't agree more with many of your posts.
Rajasaranam,
If u strongly believe with complete and clear picture of the entire financial , copyright agreements, first and foremost u probably can do is call a press meet thro' TM or yahoo user group and bring the whole issue to the public again If there is any grounds at all,
athaivida innum venumna, irukkave irukku "sunTv" who can easily take a sweet revenge against IR's recent Jaya Tv association , TIS-USA has all the fundraising events video clippings with all those nice , humble, innocent talks of IR ( I believed him then , I still believe, because I don't have anything transparent not to believe )
lastly personal question, ungalukku Kadavuzh, nambikkai illada kaaranathaal, I see u fuming about IR's contribution to "Mookambikai's" donation, what irks u in this regard, would u have been happy if same IR had contributed same 27 lakhs towards " AIDS prevention or some such cause.
In late 80's , after Armenia Earthquake, IR thro's minimally publicised concerts in TN contributed close to 1 crore and this was in many many news media.
If there is a foul play in the entire event from IR's side, it is yet to be proven, about all those who are breathing heavy, not able to dust, or listen to IR's music after this entire unestablished discussions, I think some Dfers have already answered it including rajsaranam, BTW, I didn't know Avvaiyyar drank Kallu... super pa(r)tti ya irundurukkum poleye, it's the music u beleive in not the creator.
Prabhudas
"MSK and Kavin can't agree more with many of your posts. "
so you actually agree with Kavin that TM has to pay royalty to IR? Because thats what he said.
"I have always thought people in film industry are corrupted in one way or other, some even unknowingly because of being either too naive or some one else around them running their show"
classic chappakattu. How can a person get "unknowingly" corrupt or can be so "naive" to get corrupted? How can IR be naive and business-like, cutthroat-like at the same time?
In this case no one surrounding IR was running the show. He was directly involved.
I guess Tamilmayyam should have secretly sold all the rights not trusting IR right from the beginning. Because thats what some of you guys are accusing them of - of being sincere. here "naive" is used to replace "sincere". I guess if TM had pre-empted IR into getting all the rights and left IR in deep debt it would have been interesting to see your reactions. Will you accuse IR of being "naive" then and ignore everything? will you say Fr.Gasper was "unknowingly corrupted" and that it was IR's fault that he wasnt business-like or opportunistic?
viyajr, thanks for enlisting support for my views. but no thanks. some people in this forum will be able to discern what is truth and what is non-sensical in my posts. while some of the posts of mine were meant to humor you, some extremist statements were also meant to pull the pendulum towards the centre, when the opinions tended to be one sided.
prabhudas and MSK's posts make better sense to me. TISK as usual hides behind someone elses posts, advising people not to respond to me with stock statement YIA. He still has not come out with explanations to specific questions which only he can answer. If he is campaigning in a public forum, then he should be aware that questions will be asked from skeptics. if his intention is to give out partial truths and get few people to part with their money, then he should be aware that there will be some who will question his intentions so that some of those who are willing to give him the money are in a better position to decide for themselves.
rather than seeing it as two individuals IR and Fr Gaspar, lets discuss this from the perspective of two organisations. Tamil Mayam and IR traditional music art and cultural trust (the Trust).
Shall we say that these two organisations with different agenda came together to make Thiruvasagam? TM had tamil culture and tamil social agenda while the Trust with heavy leanings in music. Both are relatively unknown organisations IR provided the public image.
In a partnership between these two organisation what to they give each other. IR gives his creative ability and TM promised to generate funds and awareness for this project. What did either organisation expect out of this. I suppose expectation were unlimited because the idea had huge potential.
IR's Trust besides making money from TIS also will look for recognition as an organisation of substance and promise in traditional music. The Trust can in future approach other potential donors for funds based on the finished product of TIS.
TM firstly will be looking at spreading its wings with all the tamils abroad, since the project gives them credibility to approach people and show them what TM can achieve. Producing TIS is not the end, but what they can subsequently achieve is more important. Such as connecting rural tamilnadu with computer network, YMCA kind of organisation throughout the world and many more such ambitious projects. How they come out in helping TIS is important.
Well what was the outcome? TIS did not shake the world as expected. It was a mediocre though unique album. It did not live up to its hype. People recieved it with mixed reaction. It did not have the potential to make huge sums of money maybe in long term it may but that is not good enough for either organisation. The prerelease hype and marketing ensured that it didn't go into oblivion.
Since the production was not by any music labels, Sony and Saregama could only be approached for distribution. Since they did not produce it their commitment to TIS would have been limited. It would have been a case of release and sit on them. Again this was not good enough for either organisation. TM has no experience in music production and hence it is unlikely to understand this, while IR's Trust has many years of experience with music industry.
Since it did not make as much money as expected, the two organisations are trying to share the spoils and both are unhappy and putting blame on each other. Which happens in loss in business, each one trying grab whatever little they can.
TM as an organisation, will move on to their agenda, which is more social change than music. They will continue their relationship with tamils abroad for support for their future projects. IR's Trust will have to continue its mission in music and it has only TIS to work on till another comes along. Hence statements like, God willing more such projects.
TM is trying to retain its well wishers by coming out as victims in this association.
I see TIS-USA as a partner of TM rather than IR's Trust. TM is accountable to TIS-USA. TIS-USA will dissolve soon and the individuals concerned are likely to become TM's arm in USA which should be encouraged and supported to continue with their vision.
What answer do u need as u have framed a question out of ur own imagination and assumption,Quote:
so you actually agree with Kavin that TM has to pay royalty to IR? Because thats what he said.
Need to read posts carefully as opposed to obssessively keep replying , I said many of their posts again I said many of their posts, that doesn't mean I agreed with every post :wink:
chappakattum illae Maavu Kattum ille, go read Fr.'s statement , remember there was a auditor for IR, there are people like auditor, managers and what not who all can play a role.Quote:
classic chappakattu. How can a person get "unknowingly" corrupt etc....
When IR auditor had to say that, why not TM auditor ? TM agreed for some vague reasons, yes very vague reasons, u can't have a business in this way , no chance... dosen't it glare so obviously there are some more reasons why the whole agreement issue had to happen under "DURESS", and what are those reasons, not just releasing the album to get name but also to get the money
( personal loans) invested back also and probably many other.
[quote] I guess Tamilmayyam should have secretly sold all the rights not trusting IR right from the beginning."
U can guess 1000 things and feel free to infer yourself as it's ur guesses
[/quote "Because thats what some of you guys are accusing them of - of being sincere. here "naive" is used to replace "sincere". I guess if TM had pre-empted IR into getting all the rights and left IR in deep debt it would have .... [/quote
I am not accusing nobody ( Brooklyn style), I made my personal comment, if someone else is accusing, do a thesis and ask them more questions :D , I didn't find anybody accusing TM personally, all who have made comments have told that there is no appropriate legal documentation to begin with or at any stage or even at the time of marketing, it will not hold water
If IR was in that situation, adhe kadhai daan, "Govinda Govinda", Engeppa Raasa, un Auditor enge ponaru, paperle appadi sollaliye, appo avvalodaan....nnu kadhai close panniruppanga, and because of IR's nonmedia friendly attitude even media couldn't have done anything unless he used some political or celebrity connection
BTW, don't u believe that at some point of their career (mostly during the initial carreer) not just IR many many people in film business would have had situation where producer cheated or didn't pay money etc etc..., believe me it happened then, it happens now, it will happen forever till the legalities are properly taken care of ,
and in instances where there are political connections and public clout because of their popularity and influence, many of these are settled thro' mediators, say some big brother acting as a mediator or using power or some big celebity interfering etc...etc.
Lastly, if there was no personal loans involved in this entire project, does anybody think, TM would have bothered even a bit about losses, yeah.. right, project mundijichu, public fund le, Rajavukku peru kidaichuchu, TM kkum peru kidaichuchu, Welgate panam panna enna innoruthen panam panna enna nnu adutha projectle loss aagama panam eppadi panna mudiyum nnu yosichiruppanga ( panam not for themselves to TM organisation) , TM panna pannirunda, they might or might not have anounced too.
"Need to read posts carefully as opposed to obssessively keep replying.I said many of their posts again I said many of their posts, that doesn't mean I agreed with every post"
and you need to think before obsessively making jalra comments for IR. Because Kavin was actually defending his royalty comment in "many" of his posts, not just one post.
"go read Fr.'s statement , remember there was a auditor for IR, there are people like auditor, managers and what not who all can play a role. "
yeah right, as if IR didnt know what his own auditor was doing. auditor is there to take care of the formalities/paperwork, thats all.the orders come from IR.
"If IR was in that situation, adhe kadhai daan, "Govinda Govinda", Engeppa Raasa, un Auditor enge ponaru, paperle appadi sollaliye, appo avvalodaan....nnu kadhai close panniruppanga"
yeah but you would have come here and bashed TM left and right and atleast expressed your sympathy for IR, being a fanatic yourself. Thats what some people here are doing now, but for TM. And some of them include hardcore IR fans.
Guys..most of you here are like my friends..some more closely as I have been in touch with you over email. We all have one thing in common. We love the music of IR. That said..I see the situation as below..
Everybody involved, mainly Father and TISK, were totally in awe of IR and completely trusted IR. Because of this reason, they paid the expenses without getting anything in writing before hand that this would be a production of TM-TIS-USA and that they hold all possible copyrights. This should have been done atleast the first time they paid IR some money (I think 5 lakhs ?). This kind of trust-based interaction is atleast fine (personally I think not) when you are dealing with personal money but totally objectionable when dealing with public money. From the beginning, many people were asking for transparency in accounting (as Prabhudas mentions) and for TISK and Father to ignore this, is probably, they were drunk with the joy/arrogance of associating with a person of the stature of IR.
This is a lesson to all of us (as many were trying to impress upon myself) that skill in an art is different from personal integrity and moral character.
It is not that the Father felt betrayed, it is I and fans like me as well. We believed IR is a spiritual person, loves tamil and music and wants to do something for the good education of the youth of our culture. But it all seems like an exercise to satisfy ones and possibly make profit leveraging other people's efforts and public money.
Please note, I still trust and respect the Father and TISK, inspite of the naivete (sorry sirs, I have to say this) but this cannot be said of IR, anymore. I am really sad when I write this.
Prabhudas, please join the group, as TISK hinted, we have to make IR, who is silent, talk on this, someway or other. The group could come up with ideas for this.
"TM panna pannirunda, they might or might not have anounced too"
Prabhudas,
This shows a lack of trust on the Father. Is there something else we need to know ? Are you saying that TM and TIS-USA are trying to find a scapegoat for their own inefficiency in breaking even on this project ?
Do you think the choice of Wellgate was innocous and that there was no 'kickback' involved in the deal ? I am thinking the insistence on Wellgate and themselves being producer of TTLS as an incriminating evidence in this 'Bofors of the film music world' scandal. I am waiting to be proven wrong.
Kiru,
I did not want to talk on this further, but i think i will do it one more time to bring back relevance to this thread. The last resort for me will be to obstain from this forum for some time until the thread's relevance returns.
Shows the lack of
#1.Complete information
and questions the
#2. Need for us to even speculate/discuss/get involved given in this affair which is clearly between the parties involved ( Tm/IR/whoever else is invloved )-especially given #1.
#3. I am assuming that you are not a part of TiS-USA other than being a donor like me. If you are an office bearer of TiS-USA/TM/IR Trust etc, you should be taking this thru the right channel ( legal/Patent office/Copyright channels/Better Busines Bureau etc..) and not cry foul in this public forum which is for discussing music and related subjects and not about the biz affairs of the artists and their associates/biz groups. I could care less about the troubles of TiS-USA/IR/TM and hundreds of other great organizations like these. They solicited for donations and as a believer i helped them with my donations and bought CD's. There ends my deal !.
PLEASE MOVE THIS DISCUSSION TO SOMEHWERE ELSE or start another thread /yahoo groups etc.. or whatever you like..
Kiru, sorry to say this , but you seem to be overreacting to this and if you so strongly believe take it up legally with TiS-USA/TM and leave all of us alone. I could care less about who cheated who !! The lawyers would love to talk to you ( and get your money ).
Prabhudas, I did not say the Charity orgs are not accountable. I said when I donate money to these organizations, i trust them and do not go cry foul that they misused money etc etc.. If i come to know about such things then i will not donate to them next time. End of matter.. I will not start a Yahoo groups ( Sorry Kiru) to go fight against that Charity. I will blame myself for not checking everything about that org before donating my mnoney and thank God for that lesson and move on in Life. Hope this clarifies.
Cheers
MSK
dear kiru,
I'll support you in your efforts in the legal action. Get some evidence for 1) IR has personally made money using public funds and the profits, if any, is not going to his Trust. 2) IR is getting kickbacks from TTLS because of the TIS deal.
Also draw up all possible charges that can be used against IR and start collecting evidence.
Hi Prabhudas,
One more thing !! One thing I have learned to in this forum ( i am regular her the last 9+ years since inception ) is it is wise not to respond/comment to hubbers whose views(posts) you do not understand or fail to comprehend their views no matter how hard we try. Vijayr's is on my list. ( No offense meant Vijayr, but I have failed to understand your views no matter what the subject is ..however hard i tried ..you are beyond (my ) comprehension. The only thing i have noticed,is that you like to argue and for the sake of arguing .and never get tired of it...or you have a hidden motive again, I could be wrong on that too.. anyway no offense meant and I am sorry if i sounded offensive! ).
Please let us move on guys.. I am getting tired.
Cheers
MSK
"and not cry foul in this public forum which is for discussing music and related subjects and not about the biz affairs of the artists and their associates/biz groups"
funny, how when the same forum was used to collect money and discuss logistics before TIS release, no request was made to move the discussion elsewhere as it wasnt music-related.
Now when the purpose has been accomplished and the artist's integrity in question, all efforts are being made to hush thematter up, move the discussion elsewhere, close the thread etc.
" I could care less about who cheated who !! '
except when the person cheated happens to be IR.
"Please let us move on guys.. I am getting tired. "
move on, if you want to. no one invited you here in the first place.
Guys:
vijayr's onsessive hatred of IR is very evident if you have been following his posts over the past years. He probably has some personal reasons for such vitriol that I have read from him over the years even before all this. It cannot be explained by normal human rationale for the hatred seen in his posts over the years on someone who has contributed so much. He will take any situation and find something negative to accuse IR of. TISK's posting is just fodder for him .
Any rational person would try to ascertain the facts before this shameful display happenin in this forum. You have heard just from the accusing parties but have passed judgement on IR before ascertaining the facts. It is such a pity.
I have given $1000 so far and purchased 15 CDs/VCD but I donated for IR. I did not know TM or TISK. It is because of IR, I volunteered the donation for IR not for TM or TISK. Therefore I am not really upset that TM did not get the copyrights. I gave the money so TIS will be made and I am very happy it was made and with the output. I feel that TISK should not have personal losses and I am willing to help to reduce his losses. But when fans like me donated, it is for IR.
The second word should read "obsessive". Therefore ignore comments from people who havent shown any balance in their postings before.
"onsessive hatred of IR is very evident if you have been following his posts over the past years"
funny, coming from you, an obsessive fanatic, who thinks anyone who even remotely criticizes IR has to have an ulterior motive or hatred. I have been following your posts as well. Sympathize with you for living in such a paranoid, insecure world where you constantly need to read posts that either praise IR or agree with you, in order to validate your taste. (And anyone who doesnt like IR's new albums is either strongly biased against him or arent his fans)
And NO, my comments were'nt against IR as much as against a few of his fans here who want to hush up the whole situation, pretend as if nothing happened and move on. Some of them even want IR to get paid by TM.
I fully agree with your views,Mr.'kr' and thank you for the same..
I too got in primarily as an IIR fan and am still one.
I only acted as a liason for like-minded fans in USA to make TiS happen and t[h]is would not have been possible but for all your keen interest in getting this done.
Having said this, I happen to know more about a morally noble person in Fr.Jegath [who too IS an IIR admirer], whose motive also was to make this happen.
Unfortunately, I happen to be a witness of his humiliation and hardships which he went thru during the process and hence, his statements should not be viewed as an 'acusing party's' as you have specified.
We all want to have a happy ending without tarnishing anyone's image and for that as Mr.'MSK' had suggested, it is better to get this past us and move on and will see what is in store for us.
Thanks.
YIA!
TISK:
therefore, can we discuss how we can help in makin sure Fr. Jegath and you get over the financial difficulties. I have a marketing background. I can work with you marketing the CDs. In an earlier post, I had mentioned targeting music departments/faculty members and religion departments in universities in the US. We can also help you with further funds towards your financial difficulties.
I however find it hard to believe the accusations that has been goin on this forum that IR has done a scam with this project. When you listen to TIS and the effort that has been put by IR in its composition and orchestration, it has not been done with the aim of scam in mind. If monetary gain was the objective, IR could have done some standard run of the mill populist stuff and made money that way. You wouldnt get the caliber of TIS composition.
In addition, if money making was IR's objective, he could have towed the wishes of so many of the producers and directors he had alienated for his principles in the last decade.
Also look at how many experiental movies and directors that IR has supported in his career. Even in the recent past - films kike Kutti, Karuvelam pookal etc. This is not the money making person that is being portaryed here.
Unfortunately, your frustration has become a fooder for obsessive IR haters in this forum for furtherin their agenda.
Mr. Vijayr:
Your obsessive hatred for IR has clouded your judjement and perceptions and hence it is not surprising that you consider anyone with a different perspective than yours as hard core IR fans. I just hope that someday your hatred subsides and wisdom and better judgement prevails. Good luck!
"and hence it is not surprising that you consider anyone with a different perspective than yours as hard core IR fans"
nice job twisting my words. I never said anyone with a different perspective is a hardcore fan. I know the difference between a hardcore fan of IR's music and a fanatic. All I said was some of the hardcore fans here want to hush up the whole thing or ignore it.
But your comments are'nt suprising, because thats what you do all the time, twist other people's words to ease your way out of a difficult spot. I too hope that your fanaticism subsides one day and you realize that if someone doesnt like a particular song that you do, it doesnt mean they harbor hatred for IR or that they have an ulterior motive. Its perfectly OK for someone to dislike something that you like and vice versa.