Ramayana - Another Great Epic

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Originally Posted by viggop

Vali will be born as the hunter in Dwapara yuga and will send the arrow which will kill Lord Krishna.The arror will hit the feet/toe but still Krishna will die.

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There is no basis for this Story of Rebirth of Vali to kill Krishna by Vengeance.. It cannot be true because....

(1) Vali got Moksha by the grace of Lord Rama... which means NO RE-BIRTH at all, further..

(2) For all the Criticisms, Blames and Questions by Vali to Rama,... he got detailed justifications and due Replies from the Lord... on which he realised his folly and repeanted for his grave misdeeds, especially the worst injustice to his own brother Sugreeva. Then he apologises to the Innocent-victim, his younger Brother. And also hands over his Son Angatha to Sugreeva's care.

Accepting Vali's Apologies and Self-Surrender with a Guilty-conscience, Rama granted Moksha to him out of Mercy..

Then the Question of Vengeance does not arise at all... calling for Rebirth to appease the Vali's alleged Wrath on God. .

Vali's episode ends with Ramayana itself... with NO EXTENSION of term... beyond..

The Hunter "Jara" innocently killed Lord Krishna, similar to Dasaratha's hiiting by an Arrow on Sravana-Kumara... just on the spur of Surmise or Guess.

And further... an interesting point ... Who was Vali?...

...Was he dispensable for Ramayana... as a REDUNDANT-CHARACTER?

No.. Vali was one of the IMPORTANT-CHARACTERS .. INDISPENSABLE for Ramayana.

How ?...I will reply after hearing from others.

That was the most beautiful insight I have heard on why Vali could not have been Jara, the hunter. Thank you Mr Sudhaama!

Other stories I have heard why he cannot be Jara include the fact that Vali was Indra-amsa while Sugriva was Surya-amsa. As though to make amends for what happened in Ramayana, Krishna was close to Arjuna who was Indra-amsa and not to the Surya-amsa, Karna!

Again, sometimes, all this is forced logic! But Sudhaama's explanation beats everything by its sheer beauty and meaning!

Thanks Mr.Sudhaama.In Kamba Ramayanam, Vali first accuses Rama for killing him unfairly.Rama then gives a detailed explanation on why he should be punished.I think HariKrishnan Sir has listed 7 reasons in his articles.Vali accepts Rama's reasoning and asks Rama to take care of his son Angada.

i'm not able to find an answer why Vali was indispensable to Ramayana.Meeting Sugriva got Lord Rama, Hanuman and the monkey army.Sugirva gave this support if Lord Rama kills Vali.But, I think the Lord would have killed Ravana without anybody's help too.

Sudhaama Sir
Please do not keep the suspense for a long time. :-)

VALI the INDISPENSABLE Character of Ramayana.. alongwith Sugreeva and Hanuman.

Thanks to Mr. Badri, Mr. Viggop and others...Mr. Badri has presented his points beautifully...

And... further to my previous statement on the matter... here is my clarification...

(1) The object of Ramawathara was not to make Seetha get caught and then retrieve her BY ANY MEANS... But... "Sishta-Paripalanam - Dhushta-Nigraham" (Protecting the Good alongside Destroying the Evils).

One of such evils to be destroyed was Vali.... and one of the Goods whose interests were to be protected, was Sugreeva (alongwith his Minister Hanuman and others) Sugreeva was the most aggrieved due the Evil-domination by his own brother. Rama's gesture of making friendship with Sugreeva was not in consideration of his comparative-strength vs his enemy Vali's. But to get two Mangoes with One strike.... of Royal- approach... Supporting the Good alongside destroying the Evils.

(2) Vali was the God Indra, while his brother Sugreeva was the God Soorya .. by reincarnation. Since Indra could not bear the extreme onslaughts of atrocities by Ravana on him and the Deva-lokam on the whole, he prayed to God Brahma and got the Awathara as Vali bestowed with unparallel might... to gain half of the magnitude of any of his opponents Fighting-might.

Thus it was contemplated that Ravana the worst Enemy of Indra, can be destroyed, only by means of such a Superlative-supplementation of might, inevitable to combat the Tyrannical Ravana considered invincible till then.

Since Ravana's cruelties extended towards Navagrahas too, the Lord Soorya came forward to support Indra on his Noble-mission.... and so was given awathara as Vali's brother.

If Vali would have sincerely carried out his duties towards the purpose of Reincarnation on Earth...by putting an end to Ravana's evil deeds.. Rama need not have taken awathara at all just for destroying Ravana, but could have restricted with his Sishta-paripalanam only.

(3) Indra in the shape of Vali, not only failed in his Mission-duty and personal commitment, but also caused the situation to aggravate by adding insults to the injury.... since he became Ravana's Friend.

Thus Vali not only added more Gravity to the erstwhile magnitude of the Evils ... but also supplemented his misdeeds by exercising Evils himself by forcible acquiring his brothers wife as well as the rightful share of Kingdom.... that too being the so called God, in another form.

So Rama had to treat Vali as undeserving to stand face to face with Him, thus denying equal status as a Royal-enemy..... and deemed him at par with any Wild-Animal, which is only hunted. ..

In that aspect Ravana was better-qualified to be combated in the Battlefiled ... because he was a Wicked-Ruler who behaved wicked. But he too had some bright sides., even though he was not an Awathara unlike Vali.

Whereas Vali. performed towards the opposite direction, misusing all his mights and rare opportunities provided in his own interests and duties as Indra for Him and Devas sake... But what resulted?...An injustice to His subjects too.

(4) This Reverse-action of Indra in the shape of Vali, also tantamounts to Breach of Trust to Soorya, his Friend...who became the innocent victim of his God-brother's atrocities..

(5) As offered by Vali, if Rama would have sought his support ... no doubt Seetha could have been retrieved, by means of the intervention of Vali. Then the name Ramayana would have been corrected as Valiyayana... and Rama would have been called as the Supporter of Evils...

Gaining Victory with the support of Evils is suicidal. It indirectly means the encouragement of Evils and self-weakening of the Postive-might of Nobles.

(6) If Vali was left apart in Ramayana unaffected by Rama's birth, .. then the Gospel...

Parithraanaaya Saadhoonaam, Vinaasaaya cha Dhushkrithaam
Dharma-Samsthaapanaarthaaya Sambhavaami Yugae Yugae...

... would have become meaningless... and futile.

(7) Irrespective of God's relevance in the epic... it cannot be the Right-objective nor the Healthy- approach of Rama,... to seek the support of Vali, just because of his greater might than Sugreeva, as also his Powerful-Voice with Ravana.

If so resorted, Rama the Embodiment of Noble-Character . would have lost his Golden-image..as also the Glory of this Epic itself would have got decimated. ... because of such a Negative approach... and Sickly Principle

Ramayana conveying a Valuable Human- message, as a Remarkable- Lesson for the posterity, can never set such a bad- precedence ... contrary to the Principles of Righteousness. .

(8) By means of Vali's character... Rama has proved to the Mankind... that...

(a) Alongwith the Personal- Commitments, Duties of the Seat one occupies, are the primary consideration, more than any Individuals- interests ...

(b) If anyone turns as an Evil-force, he is considered as an Opponent to Dharma (Righteousness)...as also the Enemy to Supreme God... the Ultimate-Protector . Nobody including a King or even Gods can be an exception ...

(c) Added to Selfish-motives, if someone becomes wicked too, .he begets the worst punishment...especially when he is meant for implementing the Righteousness. on the field.

Strictly speaking, Vali deserves Naraka, the Hell... But he was so lucky to gain the Merciful Grace of Rama...as to be bestowed Moksha / Mukthi.

(9) In consideration of Ravana's Varam (Boon) .... excluding Monkeys and Mankind ... Sugreeva along with his Monkey-force was needed for Rama... the Human-birth.

Besides there can be no Ramayana without Hanuman... who was so Humble and Dutiful... a Symbolic-character sincerely practicing Dharma

Thus Rama has also proved to humanity that God can take any shape and take the support of anybody and make him / her great... if only Dharma is adhered to.

In brief, the message behind Ramayana, is ... that God works for the Success and Prosperity of Righteous-minded noble persons... more than towards His own Fame.

To accentuate the Values of Daylight ... Dark nights also are needed

To show the Worth of the Shady-shelter... Hot Sun also is needed

To show in practice to Mankind... by translating God's words into action...

... Vali, Sugreeva and Hanuman are also the Indispensable and IMPORTANT Characters of Ramayana.

Sugreeva seeks protection under Rama.Saranagathi.Lord Rama has to protect him. Just a doubt. If an evil man like Ravana seeks Saranagathi under Rama, then Rama will be forced to protect him.But, can a person still continue to be evil after surrendering himself to the Lord?Or the act of saranagathi means losing individual ego and hence no can be evil after that?

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Originally Posted by viggop

Sugreeva seeks protection under Rama.Saranagathi.Lord Rama has to protect him. Just a doubt. If an evil man like Ravana seeks Saranagathi under Rama, then Rama will be forced to protect him.But, can a person still continue to be evil after surrendering himself to the Lord?Or the act of saranagathi means losing individual ego and hence no can be evil after that?

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Viggop..

Enna marandhuteengalaa..... Endru poi naalai vaa...... Ravana .. during the intial stages of the war itself will have a head on with Rama and will be almost defeated ... and will be armless and tired..... Rama will gracefully tell him to go back and come back fresh the next for the war.......
Can you imagine any other person could have done that.... Only Rama can do such remarkable things .....
If Ravana had sought Saranaagadhi at that time... he would have survived.... but his character was bound for death ... I suppose.... else he would have become a timid character.....

Hi Balaji
My questions was more towards the meaning of "saranagathi"? Can a person be evil after surrendering himself to God? does "saranagathi" means losing an individual ego?

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

(1) The object of Ramawathara was not to make Seetha get caught and then retrieve her BY ANY MEANS... But... "Sishta-Paripalanam - Dhushta-Nigraham" (Protecting the Good alongside Destroying the Evils).

One of such evils to be destroyed was Vali.... and one of the Goods whose interests were to be protected, was Sugreeva (alongwith his Minister Hanuman and others) Sugreeva was the most aggrieved due the Evil-domination by his own brother. Rama's gesture of making friendship with Sugreeva was not in consideration of his comparative-strength vs his enemy Vali's. But to get two Mangoes with One strike.... of Royal- approach... Supporting the Good alongside destroying the Evils.

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Good observations, Sudhaama. A few points from my side. I will elaborate these later. I have been posponing participaton in the Epics thread because of health reasons. I will give a few quick observations for now.

Rama, if at all his intention was to retrieve Sita, if it was his only consideration, should in all appropiatness have sought the friendship of Vali alone. Vali draws the attention of Rama to this point when he says.

'¦ºÂ¨Äî ¦ºüÈ À¨¸ ¦¾ÚÅ¡ý ¦¾Ã¢óÐ,
«Â¨Äô ÀüÈ¢ò Ш½ «¨Áó¾¡ö ±É¢ý,
Ò¨Äô ÀüÚõ «ô ¦À¡íÌ «Ã¢ §À¡ì¸¢, µ÷
Ó¨Äô ÀüÚÅÐ ±ýÉ ÓÂüº¢§Â¡?

'¦ºÂ¨Äî ¦ºüÈ À¨¸ Ravana took Sita away by force. He nullified your acts, your act of protecting her. ¦¾ÚÅ¡ý ¦¾Ã¢óÐ, «Â¨Äô ÀüÈ¢ò Ш½ «¨Áó¾¡ö ±É¢ý, if you intended to seek the friendship of Sugriva, in order to help you rout him,
Ò¨Äô ÀüÚõ «ô ¦À¡íÌ «Ã¢ §À¡ì¸¢, then you should have come to me, the lion who is capable of killing an elephant (The word 'puyal' here stands for an elephont) µ÷ Ó¨Äô ÀüÚÅÐ ±ýÉ ÓÂüº¢§Â¡? Instead, you have sought the ally of a rabbit. What kind of an effort is this!

Vali was the king. He had all the wherewithal with him to fight the demon. Apart from the infrastural considerations, he had the track record of quelling Ravana. Therefore, he makes an ideal choice, if it was Rama's sole purpose to retrieve Sita from the prison of Ravana.

But it is more than obvious that Rama's intention did not end there. Apart from this, take a look at the advice of Kabandha, at the time of his being killed and appearing in his etheral form, and at the advice of Sabari. Both tell Rama that it is Sugriva with whom he has to join hands to accomplish his purpose. One has to see why both Kabandha and Sabari told Rama to seek the friendship of Sugriva, and make him the king.

You may like to see the following ariticles of mine, in this respect:

Who can be the perfect ally - Part I
http://www.chennaionline.com/festiva...eligion228.asp

Who can be the perfect ally - Part II
http://www.chennaionline.com/festiva...eligion229.asp

There are 64 instalments on the Vali Episode, commencing from

The Vali Episode
http://www.chennaionline.com/festiva...eligion227.asp

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(2) Vali was the God Indra, while his brother Sugreeva was the God Soorya .. by reincarnation. Since Indra could not bear the extreme onslaughts of atrocities by Ravana on him and the Deva-lokam on the whole, he prayed to God Brahma and got the Awathara as Vali bestowed with unparallel might... to gain half of the magnitude of any of his opponents Fighting-might.

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Vali was the son of Indra. Not Indra himself. Similarly, Sugriva was the son of Sun.

Another thing. That Vali received half-the strength of his opponent is a myth. Though Kamban mentions this aspect, This has to be gone into.

The necklace of Indra, which is supposed to bring half-the strength of his opponent, is handed over to Sugriva at the time of Vali's death. Logically speaking, Sugriva, who now wears the necklace, should have gained that mystic power endowed by the necklace. This did not happen.

This theory is not supported by Valmiki. Kamban's Hanuman says that Vali is capable of getting half the power of his opponent. This has nothing to do with the decision of Rama to kill him from hiding.

I have argued the case in my ChennaiOnline column. This can be found in the above 64 instalments which I have indicated.

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Since Ravana's cruelties extended towards Navagrahas too, the Lord Soorya came forward to support Indra on his Noble-mission.... and so was given awathara as Vali's brother.

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It is plausible. But not possible. Is there any textual evidence to this effect?

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If Vali would have sincerely carried out his duties towards the purpose of Reincarnation on Earth...by putting an end to Ravana's evil deeds.. Rama need not have taken awathara at all just for destroying Ravana, but could have restricted with his Sishta-paripalanam only.

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It was beyond Vali. He chose to strike friendship with Ravana instead. Though Vali was powerful enough to meet Ravana, he did not choose to do so.

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(3) Indra in the shape of Vali, not only failed in his Mission-duty and personal commitment, but also caused the situation to aggravate by adding insults to the injury.... since he became Ravana's Friend.

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True, in part. Once again, Vali was Indra's son. Not Indra himself.

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Thus Vali not only added more Gravity to the erstwhile magnitude of the Evils ... but also supplemented his misdeeds by exercising Evils himself by forcible acquiring his brothers wife as well as the rightful share of Kingdom.... that too being the so called God, in another form.

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True. This forms the part of the justifications that Rama gives Vali, which Vali gets convinced, and accepts.

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So Rama had to treat Vali as undeserving to stand face to face with Him, thus denying equal status as a Royal-enemy..... and deemed him at par with any Wild-Animal, which is only hunted. ..

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This question of killing from hiding needs an elaborate answer. I have tried to do so in the above ChennaiOnline articles.

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In that aspect Ravana was better-qualified to be combated in the Battlefiled ... because he was a Wicked-Ruler who behaved wicked. But he too had some bright sides., even though he was not an Awathara unlike Vali.

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Vali cannot be considered to be an avatar.

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Whereas Vali. performed towards the opposite direction, misusing all his mights and rare opportunities provided in his own interests and duties as Indra for Him and Devas sake... But what resulted?...An injustice to His subjects too.

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That Vali's subjects were affected is acknowledged by Hanuman. Other points are not supported by Valmiki or Kamban.

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(4) This Reverse-action of Indra in the shape of Vali, also tantamounts to Breach of Trust to Soorya, his Friend...who became the innocent victim of his God-brother's atrocities..

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This is another hypothesis. This does not figure in, in the Text.

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(5) As offered by Vali, if Rama would have sought his support ... no doubt Seetha could have been retrieved, by means of the intervention of Vali. Then the name Ramayana would have been corrected as Valiyayana... and Rama would have been called as the Supporter of Evils...

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True. What Rama needed was an ally in his efforts, which extend beyond the retrieval of Sita. It was that he wanted the support from the right person. And not certainly Vali, though Rama considers him as a good king. Not a good person.

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(6) If Vali was left apart in Ramayana unaffected by Rama's birth, .. then the Gospel...

Parithraanaaya Saadhoonaam, Vinaasaaya cha Dhushkrithaam
Dharma-Samsthaapanaarthaaya Sambhavaami Yugae Yugae...

... would have become meaningless... and futile.

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I need to think over this point.

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(7) Irrespective of God's relevance in the epic... it cannot be the Right-objective nor the Healthy- approach of Rama,... to seek the support of Vali, just because of his greater might than Sugreeva, as also his Powerful-Voice with Ravana.

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This has already been acknowledged.

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If so resorted, Rama the Embodiment of Noble-Character . would have lost his Golden-image..as also the Glory of this Epic itself would have got decimated. ... because of such a Negative approach... and Sickly Principle.

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I agree. But it is not right to say that Rama would have lost his 'golden-image', as that would show Rama more as an image-conscious person, rather than a Dharma-conscious person.

As for the other points, I will join a little later. Running a temperature. Unable to sit, read or type any more.

Dear HariKrishnan Sir
Take rest.Eagerly awaiting your update in MahaBharatha thread on duryodhana's ascent to heaven once you come back.

I wonder why Sugriva did not use Hanuman to fight Valee…. After all Hanuman is all powerful and mighty …..
Besides, Hanuman is not an ordinary person to run away and go along with Sugriva…. To be away from the crutches of Valee……though he played a supportive role to Sugriva…

Any reason for this ….