Films of Mani Ratnam

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Originally Posted by app_engine

if not for Rajini (& songs), T would have been intolerable IMO.

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So you are saying the film is not worth all that much. Reducing it to that is a bit much.

Personally, I think both N and T would be tolerable without KH and RK. Both are foremost Mani Ratnam films.

Even without IR music, it'd be alright. It'd not be rank bad as one would have us believe.

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Originally Posted by VTV

IMO, Iruvar is the best of all mani films.. nayakan kooda aduthuthaan...

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Iruvar is slightly better than Nayagan in terms of execution/finesse etc.

But Nayakan was able to connect with the audience much, much better. Mani's success with Nayakan lies in the fact he makes the audience nod their heads in agreement to Velu Naicker (conveying Mani's message) of "TheriyallayE pa...", when his grandson asks him that nallavarA/kettavarA kostin. The effect Nayakan has on it's viewers once you walk out of theatre (or finish off watching it on TV/DVD) is much, much greater than Iruvar. To me, that is the factor that tilts the scale towards Nayakan over Iruvar.

And, lastly, but not least - Kamalahasan's acting, sheer genius at work! :notworthy: He just lived himself as Velu Naicker for 2-1/2 hours with well nuanced acting.

k-g - A "vambu" kostin to you :lol2:

which is a better adaptation of our epic - Raavan or Thalapathy? :yessir:

I haven't read original texts of both epics and only read bad adaptations of both. Which film I'd prefer to watch, it'd be Thalapathy. But I thought Mani was trying a lot of interesting things in Raavanan and it got bashed so badly that it'd have risked a heart attack, if not for Reliance.

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

Both are foremost Mani Ratnam films.

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அது ஒரு கருத்து.

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Even without IR music, it'd be alright.

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அது இன்னொரு கருத்து.

TFI would (have) survive(d) without film composers, that's a fact. All you meesicals could dribble around that all you like.

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Originally Posted by app_engine

Much of the scenes related to "pro-people-don" were novelties in N but dejavvu in T. (It needed a Rajini & his dynamics to lift that scene with the 'poNam' dialog to Shobana).

Also, rombbbbbba-nEram-adichchu-udhaichchu-konnavanOda kuttiya adopt paNNuRadhu is a repeattu.

That way, if not for Rajini (& songs), T would have been intolerable IMO.

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Thanks for clarifying, A-E. :) Okay, I see what you are saying. Although when I watched thalapathy first time I never had the Nayakan deja vu. But I've heard many people comparing Thalapathy with Nayakan during the time of it's release.

My "illaina mattum" kostin is more to convey that there is nothing more to Thalapathy other than it being a shiny object for Rajini fans (and quite understandably so) and it's music, including BGM, is bigger than or (rather too good for) the movie itself, IMO.

Thalapathy looked more of a "stunt" from MR. Padatha, Mani saar, oru maadhiri "kuthu madhipA" edhutha maadhiri oru feelingi. The friendship which is the crux of the movie wasn't established well/convincingly, IMO. Because everything that happens after that is Suriya faithfully taking orders from Deva. Lot's of meandering/gimmicks but oru sense of purpose lack aana maadhiri irundhuchu. Let's not even go post Thalapathy. Even comparing "Thalpathy" with pre-Thalapthy movies of Mani - like MN, Nayakan, AN, Geetanjali, Anjali etc. all these movies had an "aani tharam" in the way the characters were built, the relationships were established etc... Thalpathy is still good, way above an average Tamil movie but there is an uneasy, unexplainable "something is missing feeling" in Thalpathy that you would quite often see in MR films (not when he was in his pomp).

Starting from Thalapathy, it was sort of up's and down's for MR until "Iruvar" happened.

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

TFI would (have) survive(d) without film composers, that's a fact. All you meesicals could dribble around that all you like.

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I'm not meesical myself but Veedu, Guna, Hey Ram (to name a few) unthinkable without Raja's score.

If I imagine Arris SeyarAs doing BGM for Nayagan or Thalapathy. :shaking:

kid.... rajiniyum vendam..kamalum vendam.. music um venam... vera enna thaan venum oru film kku.. :oops:

Funny that the movie which is often quoted for *friendship* did not *establish* it convincingly :lol2:

And Gitanjali, AN, Anjali > T is :lol2: :lol2: stuff. Gitanjali especially is as artificial as it gets (I like the film very much btw).

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

NT's gestural acting alone lifts up ordinary 'maudlin' seem powerful and strong melodrama.

Louis Malle calls NT TFI's Belmondo. 100 Brando's, 200 Mifune's, 300 Belmondo's, 400 Vittorio Gassman's put together would never equal 1000 different faces of NT's.

Bachchan propaganda machinery'lam 70's scriptwriters vechu aadurainga. Bloody retards.

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You brightened up my day today, thilak. Many thanks :-D

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Originally Posted by Nerd

And Gitanjali, AN, Anjali > T is :lol2: :lol2: stuff.

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thaLapathi is obviously made on a much bigger canvas and is an iconic film in all ways, but when I say I prefer 'agni n,' I'm referring to the way the emotions are dealt with in that film. In thaLapathi, I don't think you've a scene like the train scene you quoted. Such vulnerable moments of characters, in general the dimension of "pEsApporuL" are missing in thaLapathi but rather they're overturned into something feel-good and maudlin. It not only fails to do justice to the source material but is also notches below how Mani handles emotions in other films. Here it's like most characters are out there to establish each others' goodness. "En-nA nI en naNban.." (such explicit, in-your-face dialogue to someone who's one of your closest friends!) "en aNNan kUdavA nAn iththanai nAL mOdhittu irundhEn..." "unakkoru kudumbam irundhudhunnA adhu enakkum kudumbam, ennai pirikka pArkkAdhadA.." I totally am aware of the giant stature of the film, but the abruptness of such changes of hearts are laughably bad. nInga Bombay's altruistic ending-ai comparison eduththA, I see your point, but 'agni n' nails the changes of heart, especially in comparison to how things transpire in thaLapathi.

enna inga saNdai..
PfullA padikkalai, but AN> Dalpathi for sheer.
Basically AN engellAm underrate paNNappadudhO, angellAm nyAn sambavAmi yugE yugE.

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

TFI would (have) survive(d) without film composers, that's a fact. All you meesicals could dribble around that all you like.

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Meesic, composer illaama cinema vaazhum, right. Peer cinema ku idhellaam embellishments etc ok. However,
1. TFI ku idhu velaikkaavaadhu. Andha level-ku innum naama varla IMO
2. Cinema could well survive, aana naanga survive aaga vonaama?

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Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)

2. Cinema could well survive, aana naanga survive aaga vonaama?

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:lol:
Agree.

Comedy and Music are the only two things good 'on an absolute scale' in Tamil Films.
MichadhellAm konjam manidhAbimAna adippadaiyila aNuga vENdiya aesthetic-experiences dhaanE.

Pre-emptive note: "inge konjam blichu ange konjam blichu" exceptions are not counterexamples.

And btw iruvar is boring in parts, nayagan is always interesting, engaging, riveting.
Too many 'pure cinema' attempt scenes in iruvar. idhai ellAm konjam thalai-la thattiyE vaikkuradhu sari dhaan. nee kadhaiyai sollu, kadhaiyai sollu.

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Originally Posted by equanimus

thaLapathi is obviously made on a much bigger canvas and is an iconic film in all ways, but when I say I prefer 'agni n,' I'm referring to the way the emotions are dealt with in that film. In thaLapathi, I don't think you've a scene like the train scene you quoted. Such vulnerable moments of characters, in general the dimension of "pEsApporuL" are missing in thaLapathi but rather they're overturned into something feel-good and maudlin. It not only fails to do justice to the source material but is also notches below how Mani handles emotions in other films. Here it's like most characters are out there to establish each others' goodness. "En-nA nI en naNban.." (such explicit, in-your-face dialogue to someone who's one of your closest friends!) "en aNNan kUdavA nAn iththanai nAL mOdhittu irundhEn..." "unakkoru kudumbam irundhudhunnA adhu enakkum kudumbam, ennai pirikka pArkkAdhadA.." I totally am aware of the giant stature of the film, but the abruptness of such changes of hearts are laughably bad. nInga Bombay's altruistic ending-ai comparison eduththA, I see your point, but 'agni n' nails the changes of heart, especially in comparison to how things transpire in thaLapathi.

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agree on ur point about such dramatical dialogues..
but kaalam kaalamaa cinemala nadakkuradhu dhaanae... in-ur-face 'unna uyiruku uyiraa nesikkiren' ellaam kaalam kaalama nadandhuttu dhaan irukku...
i am not saying this for defending that... but deva-surya friendship is not like a regular friendship no? like it did not evolve from school/college/childhood and they were not hostel mates who boozed/quarelled/shared-glass-of-half-tea/watched-porn/d-bar'red together and the bond came from that... friends... adhu oru mutual-respect'la dramatical'a vandhadhu... adhanaala andha dramatical dialogues'um avlo nerd'alaa therila... avlo nerd'alaa (enakku)therila...

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Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)

Meesic, composer illaama cinema vaazhum, right. Peer cinema ku idhellaam embellishments etc ok. However,
1. TFI ku idhu velaikkaavaadhu. Andha level-ku innum naama varla IMO
2. Cinema could well survive, aana naanga survive aaga vonaama?

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TFI is sucked into mediocrity indirectly by these film composers. They are the safe bet for unimaginative filmmakers.

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

TFI is sucked into mediocrity indirectly by these film composers. They are the safe bet for unimaginative filmmakers.

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adhai thaan avar thamizh-la sonnAr.

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Originally Posted by P_R

adhai thaan avar thamizh-la sonnAr.

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I am blaming the composers and this over emphasized priority that they enjoy here in TFI, to indirectly contribute towards aggregation of talentless hacks.

It's not as if, if hacks had been not made palatable by MDs, talented folks would have sprung forth from somewhere to fill the void.

Andha level'ku namba innum varala'nu sollradhukku karanamE indha meesic thaan, kanda kEpmari'lam padam edukkrainga.

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

Andha level'ku namba innum varala'nu sollradhukku karanamE indha meesic thaan, kanda kEpmari'lam padam edukkrainga.

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apo 'Nadunisi naaygal' world standard movie'nu solla varingala.. ?

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Originally Posted by VTV

apo 'Nadunisi naaygal' world standard movie'nu solla varingala.. ?

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Another hack who grew and became a TFI mainstay due to meesic. Got his arse handed to him, without meesic.

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

Andha level'ku namba innum varala'nu sollradhukku karanamE indha meesic thaan, kanda kEpmari'lam padam edukkrainga.

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justement...Shankar and others still piggyback on choreographed songs/navel shots

W.r.to dialogues, neenga nallavaraa kettavaraa-vE is something you don't expect from a 3(?) year old. Mani wanted him to be the representative of the audience, obviously for the *effect*. Effectkkaaga dramatize pannradhu onnum periya vishayamillaiyE, even in Mani saar films.

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Originally Posted by Nerd

W.r.to dialogues, neenga nallavaraa kettavaraa-vE is something you don't expect from a 3(?) year old. Mani wanted him to be the representative of the audience, obviously for the *effect*. Effectkkaaga dramatize pannradhu onnum periya vishayamillaiyE, even in Mani saar films.

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சூர்யாவின் காதலி வீட்டுக்கு சென்று பெண் கேட்கும் படலம். முதல் சந்திப்பிலேயே பெண்ணின் தகப்பானாரிடம் தேவா பேசுவது ரொம்ப அதிகப்படி. பேசுவது மட்டும் இல்லாமல்.. கையை மேல வச்சி! வித்யாசம் காட்டுறன்னு பேர்ல மணி ரொம்பவே விளையாடிவிட்டார் தளபதி படத்துல. இதெல்லாம் முதல் முறை பார்க்கும் போது சகிச்சிக்கலாம். ஒன்றுக்கு மேல நிறைய முறை பார்க்கும் போது தனியா துருத்திக் கொண்டு தெரியும். பாத்திரங்களின் பொதுபுத்தியே கேலிக்கூத்தாகிவிடுகிறது.

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

பாத்திரங்களின் பொதுபுத்தியே கேளிக்கூத்தாகிவிடுகிறது.

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பொதுபுத்தி'ன்னா Englishல என்ன?

ஒரு சிலர் common senseன்ற அர்த்தத்துல பயன்படுத்துறாங்க.
ஒரு சிலர் general understanding (சமுதாயத்தின் பொதுபுத்தியில் இப்படி பதிந்துள்ளது etc.) ன்ற அர்த்தத்துல பயன்படுத்துறாங்க.

ஒரே குழப்பம்.

i think he means it like character traits/sensibilty of that character

but venki, this is not the first time u hav problems with certain activity of a character no...
adhu creator'oda istam illaya?

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

Mammooka isn't quite pleased by the film and the synthetic framework of Mani. He after all was part of the greatest melodrama ever made (which incidentally has actively inspired Bala)

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k-g, details pls..

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Originally Posted by P_R

It's not as if, if hacks had been not made palatable by MDs, talented folks would have sprung forth from somewhere to fill the void.

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P_R
Music is very popular everywhere. But in western countries music does not have much impact in Cinema mainly because all the great musicians have their own medium. In India Cinema is the main medium for music and that is why all the importance for music. Everyone knows this but we got to live with it.

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Originally Posted by SoftSword

i think he means it like character traits/sensibilty of that character

but venki, this is not the first time u hav problems with certain activity of a character no...
adhu creator'oda istam illaya?

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அப்ப நீங்க எதையுமே முழு மனதோடு உள்ளே தள்ளிடுவிங்களா? ஒரு படைப்பாளியின் எண்ண அலைகளுக்கும் பார்ப்போரின் எண்ண அலைகளுக்கும் இடையே இருக்கும் கதவு எப்போதுமே மூடிக்கொண்டிருக்கும்/திறந்து கொண்டிருக்கும் என்பது நியதி அல்ல. அங்கே இங்கே தட்டிக்கொண்டும் முட்டிக்கொண்டும் இருக்கத்தான் செய்யும், அதையும் மீறி எந்த அளவுக்கு ஒரு படைப்பு உயர்ந்து/தாழ்ந்து அதன் தளத்தில் நிற்கிறது என்பதுதான் இங்கே விவாதம். தளபதியை பொறுத்துவரை முழு படத்தையும் ஒன்றுக்கு மேல் பார்த்து ரசிக்க (பாடல்கள் காட்சிகள் தவிர ) ஏற்ற படமாக நான் கருதவில்லை. அதையொட்டியே எனது கருத்துக்கள்.

sari kurippittu sollunga.. andha scene'la avar senja endha action ungalaala yetthukka mudiyala...?
thannoda nanbana anaadhappaya'nu solra oru aal sattaya pudichaaru... local don'a irukka orutthan periyavanga sinnavanganu ellaam patthuttu iruppanaa?? oru velai, avar pesinadha ellaam sagichittu avarukku paninjupOi sammadham vaangittu vandhirundhaa dhaan adhu against his 'podhu butthi'... he himself says that when talking to sury, 'cha naan avasarapattu ellaathhayum kedutthuttaen'... apdi avasarapattu yosikkama react panradhudhaane avaroda character...

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Originally Posted by directhit

k-g, details pls..

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my understanding:

the periyavar-nandha friendship in nandha inspired from deva-surya friendship... both surya and nandha initially were accused of doing something against the deva/periyavar, but were made to be subordinates...

Having seen / heard of some bigger dramatic transformations in real-life (than the ones happening on the thaLapathi screen), I don't think there's any implausibility w.r.t. the following:
a) suddenness or depth of friendhship
b) suddenness of ammA-paiyyan acceptance
c) behavioural patterns of main characters

However, "geography" is a big problem with T (while it was a big advantage to N). adhu endha oorunga Mani sir?

Similarly, performance problem with A Samy (no issues with the char).

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Originally Posted by SoftSword

my understanding:

the periyavar-nandha friendship in nandha inspired from deva-surya friendship... both surya and nandha initially were accused of doing something against the deva/periyavar, but were made to be subordinates...

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OTOH i think he was referring to Thaniyavarthanam inspiring Nandha movie climax - just wanted to confirm :)

pandavapuram in the lines of Malgudi

ooru peru padatthula engayo sonnadhaa nyaabagam...

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Originally Posted by sathya_1979

pandavapuram in the lines of Malgudi

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Originally Posted by SoftSword

ooru peru padatthula engayo sonnadhaa nyaabagam...

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When one reads the RKN book, that sounded like it belonged to EVERY village of Trichy dist.

OTOH, when one watched T in 1991, it belonged to NO place of TN (IMHO). Landscape / language / people mix / ottu moththa violent behaviour - so untypical / anniyam for the time period (or prior).

but andha kaadhai oru kurippitta oora thazhuvi irukkanumnra kattayam illayae... aanaa naayagan padatthoda karu needs a dhaaraavi...