Ilayarajas songs in different thalams

This morning 'azhagu malarAda' was on repeat on my car. I think IR has maintained the beat cycle thru-out the song, including the interludes, which wasn't often seen with IR those days (and most hit songs today follow this style, thanks to people liking less complexity). It's very nice to see the "loop" right from prelude all the way to ending:-) It has some very nice bass guitar work as well.

Makes me think the percussion sounds of IR's mono songs score over the stereo songs. In stereo songs, I think tsk-tsk sounds dominate and the bass portion isn't felt much.

Infact Illayaraja uses the same beat cycle as 'Azaghu Malar Aada" for the Malayalam song, 'Poovai Virinju' (Adharvam). It is almost as if he has transposed the song to Malayalam. The ragam is different though. Excellent song. I can't get enough of it. Though I don't understand Malaylam I love the words :)

S.Suresh

Tamizh,

Continuing here from the other thread. I understand what you are saying wrt the rhythm or nadai changes in Rahman's songs. There are definitely many instances when this happens, especially in the interludes.

I was referring more to the complexity of the rhythm in Raja's songs and not just to the nadai variations. I was once watching the Music Show hosted by SPB, "Ennodu Paatu Paadungal". In that a girl was singing a Raja song. (Forgot which one it was.) The song followed one sort of rhythm but the percussions were following a different pattern. After she finished singing, SPB said that it was difficult song to sing since the song went as 4x8 and the rhythm went 5x8 or vice versa. One song where I find such a thing happening is 'Nagu endide' from 'Pallavi Anupallavi'. I always used to wonder how Janaki sung it so well when the rhythm seems to be going in a totally different fashion. Must have a been a challenge to sing such songs when the songs used to be recorded with live instruments. Nowadays such difficulties don't seem to arise to the singers as the song is recorded without any instrument backing, from what I understand.

S.Suresh

I hope tamizh is around..What I was saying in the other thread was IR was the first to use "loops" not ARR (just like app_engine here) :-) ..(in the context of songs without much nadai changes).
Anyways, can you throw some light on the taalam in "shiva karu damaruha layamai naadham" in kochu kochu santhoshangal (mal) ? the song has a different rhythm for every line.
(BTW, IR's usage of bass is different. I am told it is similar to the old baroque - basso continuous or something like that. It does not carry the rhythm, even though at times it drives the rhythm and then switch es to playing counter melody etc. Guitar Prasanna notes this).

Kiru,

My knowledge on rhythm is very barbaric :)

Thanks for bringing up this song, 'shiva kara'. I listened to it trying to keep the beat. I think the song as such is in Adi Talam but there are lot of nadai variations throughout. If I kept the Adi talam beat, then I found that the first charanam was starting 2 beats after the samam but the second charanam was starting on the samam !! So I am not quite sure if I am right.

I know there are quite a few people who have contributed here who have good knowledge on the tala aspects. It will be great if one of them looks into this and gives us an idea of what is going on !!

Luckily I have the online link to this song. Not the original one but the one sung by participants of a competition. Good singing. You can check it out at http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=shODD9HN2iw

S.Suresh

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Originally Posted by Sureshs65

Tamizh,

Continuing here from the other thread. I understand what you are saying wrt the rhythm or nadai changes in Rahman's songs. There are definitely many instances when this happens, especially in the interludes.

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I was just listening to Enthan vaanil from Kadhal virus. There isnt much of rhythm changes in it, its not even a valid example, I m sure there are other eligible examples around. But even in this, as we proceed into the first charanam, he just introduces an extra beat (an extra percussion actually). This gives a feeling of getting forward or shifting gears in a song. (Just give a listen, its worth it :) ) And IMO ARR does it more often than IR.

Obviously you guys are talking abt something even more technical, kind dicussions for which I am not qualified :P . Can any of you, point out some IR songs in which IR shifts gear as we proceed into the song. One which comes to my mind immediately is Mandram vantha from Mouna ragam. Oh Vasantha raja is another one. Would love to get introduced to more such songs! :D

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The song followed one sort of rhythm but the percussions were following a different pattern. After she finished singing, SPB said that it was difficult song to sing since the song went as 4x8 and the rhythm went 5x8 or vice versa. One song where I find such a thing happening is 'Nagu endide' from 'Pallavi Anupallavi'.

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I would like to listen to these songs :) . Reminds me of "Newyork nagaram" song, the rhythm goes at almost twice the speed of main melody.. kind of hurrying an otherwise slow song. I have observed ARR use this technique in few other songs.

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Originally Posted by kiru

I hope tamizh is around..What I was saying in the other thread was IR was the first to use "loops" not ARR (just like app_engine here) :-) ..(in the context of songs without much nadai changes).

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Sorry Kiru, missed that.. where did you mention loops? I beleive Looping was used for quite a while prior to getting introduced in TFM. I guess loops were used in Pink floyd's song Money as early as early 70's. Informed people can say whether it was the first occurrence.

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Anyways, can you throw some light on the taalam in "shiva karu damaruha layamai naadham" in kochu kochu santhoshangal (mal) ? the song has a different rhythm for every line.

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Thanks for this. Quite honestly listening to (may be observing) such transient rhythms for the first time.

Tamizh,

You may have listened to this earlier but here is an example where percussion plays a very good role in the song. "Poo Malarndida' from Tik Tik Tik. Starts with traditional carnatic music percussion, mridangam and Jesudas's entry with the swaram emphasizes the classical nature of the song. Slowly the instruments backing the song change to western arrangement and when the song ends it is completely western with only a few taps of mridangam added. Shows how Illayaraja fuses two systems so seemlessly together. Observe how the few mridangam beats add to the overall charm when the pallavi is sung again after the charanams.

You can listen to it at http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00668.html

You can also listen to 'Idu Oru Nilaa Kaalam' from the same film. Typical Jazzy arrangement of the drums. Nice introduction of North Indian 'solkattus' in the first interlude.

S.Suresh

Tamizh,

Here is the article written by Vicky which analyzes the complexity of the rhythm pattern in one of Illayaraja's not very often heard song. The song in embedded in the article http://raagadevan.blogspot.com/2008/...-glyphics.html

You can also listen to this song and another song from the same movie (Rajavin Parvaiyil), 'Oru Sudar', which also has a beat arrangement which doesnt seem to fully synchronized with the song itself. Though the beat is constant, the tension is provided by the variance between the song rhythm and the beat rhythm. This song is available at http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00557.html

S.Suresh

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Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan

Can any of you, point out some IR songs in which IR shifts gear as we proceed into the song. One which comes to my mind immediately is Mandram vantha from Mouna ragam. Oh Vasantha raja is another one. Would love to get introduced to more such songs! :D

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"Raja raja chozhan naan"
"Poove sempoove"
"Maamanukku" (Netrikkann - i think the reverse happens here)
"Saandhu pottu oru sandhana pottu"
"polladha madhana baanam"
"Senorita" (Rhythm synching with guitar riffs in the pallavi and settles down in the charanam.. does it qualify?)
"yelai nee etti po" (Mumbai Xpress)
......
....
others, anyone?

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I would like to listen to these songs :) . Reminds me of "Newyork nagaram" song, the rhythm goes at almost twice the speed of main melody.. kind of hurrying an otherwise slow song. I have observed ARR use this technique in few other songs.

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Doesn't the rhythm slow down after the initial guitar strums? Or do you mean that itself is twice the speed of the main melody?
I love this song but i ponder about the rhythm in this song? The rhythm after the initial guitaring is anti-climactic for me but i wonder how else it could have been done.. :)