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Thanks Nerd :D
are u calling MANI RATNAM a SANIRATNAM :shock: :shock: :shock: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketboy
Why so much hatred against him? I never knew you could hate someone for being damn good. We don't give credit to our own people and anticipate americans to offer us oscars on a plate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saamy
The Times review is really good and I am happy that atleast Mani takes our movies to the western countries :clap:
But the point is there are better movies than nAyakan which could not find a place in the Time's list :(
It doesn't stem out of hatred . Just kiddingQuote:
Originally Posted by NewOne
NO . I dont hate him so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by NewOne
What if ManiRathnam directs 'Periyar' --Just for fun
http://penathal.blogspot.com/2007/01...creenplay.html :)
point them plz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd
joe:good find.gr8 comedy.any guru collection reports?
LOTS of b/w movies (I have not seen a lot lately, AFAICR andha naaL)Quote:
Originally Posted by VENKIRAJA
Bharathiraja's 16 vayathinilE, mudhal mariyAdhai
Mani Ratnam himself's mouna rAgam
Mahendran's uthiri pookkaL, muLLum malarum
Kamal's mahAnadhi, dhEvar magan
Balu mahendra's veedu
These movies deserve a place more than nAyagan, IMHO :)
Few more Tamil movies I would add to that list are:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd
Moondram Pirai, Sindhu Bhairavi, Anjali, Roja & Hey Ram! IMO, all these movies are "international" class! :thumbsup:
anjali...roja???????
:roll: they are of international class?
did he really deal with the terrorism there?...thats a love story!
My crib against Mani is that he deceives the viewers by appearing to address an issue when all he is doing is 'manipulate' the gullible audience by using the issue to tap their excitable emotions and then completely skirt and romanticize the issue. As a result, the plot suffers and characters become unrealistic.
There are two things film-makers do. Great film-makers.
They either take a stand and pitch for their belief with the help of the movie and its characters. Others don't take a stand. They just take an impartial view and just let the people interpret without being judgemental themselves. Mani does the former (unconvincingly) but says in the interview he's doing the latter. That's the reason some of his films have the most inexplicably dumb and simplistic endings - Roja, Bombay and now, Guru.
He utterly lacks nativity and you always sense a middle-class, elitist 'feel' when you watch his films, probably stemming from his sensibilities, even though the setting may be in a country side.
About international recognition, i agree with Nerd that there are better films than Nayagan. However, from Mani's works, apart from Nayagan, which was a fantastic teamwork involving a few 'greats', i can think of Kannathil Muthamittal which can represent his best. In that sense, there are far better directors than Mani Ratnam who deserve the international recognition, just like there are better movies than Nayagan and definitely much better film scores than Roja.
Infact, we should not get carried away by this international recognition thing. It involves a combination of factors like marketing, lobbying power, accesibility, and the most important thing cultural and regional sensibilities.
Please note that i've only mentioned only some negatives here which does not mean i don't have positive things to say on Mani and his films too. After all, he is one like ARR who doesn TN proud :)
well thats the realistic depiction of a upper middle/middle class attitudes......when we see a issue, we discuss it and leave it right there :lol: .......do we take stand on that and act on that?? no.....thats wat mani does.......many hubbers felt that Surya killing his father in Nanda is reality while Karthik/Prabhu's tolerance of infidelity in Agni Natchithram is unrealistic........trust me, i wont kill my father for having a second wife.... :lol: ......i would embrace that family too......dont u guys think so?? (hope my son also doesent mind infidelity :wink: )Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkfloyd
if Mani also makes movies like Selva(about womanliness and manliness and how it grows and reacts to each other :lol: ), CSI,encounter,urban cops, raw killings like Gautam, totally unique and never-seen-before characters like Bala, and not to forget the eternal genius of Tamil cinema - cheran who doesent think elitist urban-middle class thinking is neccessary for TN , then wats left for this "poor" middle class people??? who will make movies for us and about us and our viewpoints??? :cry: :cry: .....i think Mani's departure will mark a end to middle class sensibilities/viewpoint in tamil films which is already rampant.....Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkfloyd
how do u think mani and ARR have a better lobbying power/marketing power than BR and IR??? all of them were from Tamilnadu and were Tamilians, if i'm not wrong........how do u think Mani and ARR broke the barriers while IR and BR couldnt.......wat was so foul abt their recognition??Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkfloyd
mani is making one more Hindi movie after Lajjo and is set to retire after that/....... :lol: ........we(TF) guys have already lost him.....u have btter people, dont worry..... :D ......Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkfloyd
btw, dubbing Guru in Tamil is a mistake.......mani should have understood Tamil ppl. sensibilities better......its these small mistakes that get him a huge bad name....... :cry: .....
hope lajjo is also not dubbed.... :lol:
Maddy,
You needn't have taken this thing as an "us" vs "them" :) Atleast i didn't mean it that way.
Middle-class sensibilities: I never said Mani should not make movies for or about the middle-class. That he has never made a rural subject is also another point. I didn't mean that. Also, it doesn't have to be the case that only village folks should watch village subjects and vice versa. What i meant was even when he tries to depict a rustic setting, or a character from the slum, the language,dialogue, the casting, the production design or art direction as we say it, reflects a certain "richness" or an artificiality about it.
Lobbying etc: I said its a combination of a lot of factors including marketing and lobbying. Its a necessity. Mani is well respected in the north and so is ARR. That wasn't gifted to them. They earned it. Please don't get me wrong. However, my point is that just because Richard Corliss happened to review Guru i wouldn't call it great blindly nor would i dismiss it as a marketing gimmick - i suspect that you think i do. Rather, i didn't find his review enlightening nor did he offer any insight, which is what i'd expect from a critic.
You mentioned IR. For one, his music doesn't have the national reach that ARR has. That's IR's strength as well as weakness depending on how you look at it. He has never acheived nation-wide recognition or adulation that ARR simply because ARR's music was received better in the North. Lobby means the right people, the powerful people trumpeting the movie in the right places. What Bharat Bala is doing is not a crime, but rather a smart thing to do. Not all have the privilege - not all are undeserving of it. The point is, it so happened that Nayagan and Roja got into the Time list, pipping other more deserving candidates in the process. We can use it as an indicator but not as the authority
And why do i get the feeling that you think my statement about Mani and ARR doing TN proud was sarcastic?? Seriosuly, i meant it.
About Mani doing a movie in Tamil or Hindi, going by what i've seen in Guru, i wish he does something much better next time, whatever the language
I will just take this sentance.Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkfloyd
Bombay climax was pathetic and you ve hit the bulls eye :)
I dont know how else to end rOjA and guru. Lets take guru for example. How will you suggest MR to have ended that film ?? Seeing gurubhai dying with a background song similar to thenpANdi ?? IMHO, the climax saved the otherwise dull second half.
Roja -Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd
If only terrorists could be transformed like that...... :)
Guru -
1) Do you believe Mani when he says he doesn't take stands and he is just being an objective observer?
2) Did you really buy the lofty noble rhetoric guru comes up with in the climax? What's with the 'inspiring' BGM that accompanies that? That was the epitome of Mani batting for his protagonist :)
So he is this modern day Gandhi who's motivation is to uplift his share-holders? If this climax is acceptable then all of Shankar's climaxes are very well acceptable
3) What's with the Ash being his partner thing? What did those papers in the hands of the committee members have? Straight from a typical everyday Tamil film.....
Its bad enough how he has treated the movie. What's worse is his interviews disclaiming the Ambani connection (understandable) and claiming a stance of objectivity. That means just this - trying to project an image of himself and his film which runs contrary to his work on screen
Can you suggest something else, please. You should watch other pathetic attempts at terrorists movies like the latest Kabul Express. Do you exactly know what runs in the mind of a terrorist and why did he become a terrorist and things like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkfloyd
1. After all its an Indian film and if you show that the protagonist was unethical in his moves to become rich, therein bolstering India's economy, then the movie would have looked dumb and no one would have bought that.Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkfloyd
2. His protagonist is a genius. Almost lakhs of people's lives are dependant upon him. What else will he say in those five minutes? Its very normal that you bat for a genius. Would you have been happier if gurubhai had been sent to the prison ??
3. Ash partner, I got no clue, may be there is something which you can do. A business analyst might help us, maNi himself being an mba degree holder woudnt have flunked there, I think.
And I never thought that he was Gandhi or whatever. He is just a pure genius and I dont think he cried there in the climax, he still had the attitude with him. He just explained his whole life in 5 minutes, I hate to compare that with gandhi :roll:
Santhosh Sivan's 'The Terrorist' is one I can recommend. And to really see how terrorists have no concern for sentiments, I recommend 'Arlington Road'. A particular scene in Arlington Road has Tim Robbins trying to make Jeff Bridges see reason for his actions: "In war, children die Michael". I haven't seen Guru, so I can't comment on that, but I think thinkfloyd is right about simplistic solutions to serious subjects in Mani's films. IMHO, he is the most overhyped director in India.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd
That may be the only reason he is just citing an example. No need for scandalous attacks :notthatway:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Coliss
:wave: & :sleep:
Sounds like GURU is becoming a major hit! Is this like the first direct hit for Mani in Hindi? :D
Regarding simplistic solutions to serious problems, could well be true in the case of bombay and rOjA. How can you substantiate your argument that he is the most overhyped director in India w.r.to movies like,
mouna rAgam
kannaththil muththamittAl
nAyakan
agni nakshathiram
iruvar et all
Also, who do you think is the best in India then :huh:
I watched this movie today !!! Good Movie from Maniratnam and Team .
Positive:
Abhishek Bachan : I could not think anyother bollywood actor for the role of Gurukanth Desai. He was perfect for that role , had it been tamil version my choice would be Maddy or Surya
A.R.Rehman: Be it BGM or Songs ARR rocks .
Aishwarya Rai : For the time she ACTED in this movie.
Mithunda nice to see him back after longtime in a meaningfull role.
Madhavan & Abhishek:The scene just before the interval :)
Mithun: will you be able to stop Guru kanth Desai`s Growth?
Madhavan : Yes, I can !!
after few dialogues..
Abhishek walks towards Madhavan and say " If you want to fight against Guru Kanth Desai try to be like Guru Kanth and fight. But there is only Guru kanth Desai " This scene was really cool. BGM used for the particular scene would be amazing, Arr would have used this BGM in few other scene also . :clap:
Rajeev Menon :thumbsup:
Art Direction :thumbsup: recreated Mumbai in Binny Mills .
Negative:
Few scenes reminds Nayagan .
1. Contractor: Thera Naam kya tha?
Guru: Tha Nahi,Mera Naam hai aur rahega its Guru Kanth Desai.
2 obvious one where he keeps his Goods at Pratap Pothan house .
Vidhya Balan romance sequence has slowed down the pace of the movie :(
Ek lo Ek Muft abhishek`s dance :lol2:
I didnt liked the climax, it was not that effective particularly the Abhishek Bachans dialogue :(
Nerd, MR and Nayagan are pre-90 movies. And they are two of my most favourite movies. So, I wouldn't talk about them. As for Kannathil Muthamittal, one scene speaks for the movie. Prakash Raj explaining to Madhavan the dynamics of the Srilankan war says that it's only the western powers that want the war to continue for the their own interests. Com'on, how childish is that? He doesn't have the guts to point out the true agents of war in the region. As for the children's tantrums, the less said, the better. Only children in Mani's movies can act in the way they do.
Agni Natchatiram: Again, I think he spoilt a very good subject with larger than life situations, unnecessary side track and artificial dialogues.
Iruvar: The worst thing about Iruvar is it's artificiality. I was laughing hard when Prakash Raj was mouthing dialogues in chaste Tamil to Tabu and Mohanlal. Mohanlal was the only saving grace in an otherwise forgettable movie.
About the best director, are you talking about art movies or commercial movies? There are much better directors in both formats. See that's another problem: He tries make his audience believe that he gives them the best of both worlds, which he doesn't. What we get is in contrast, a confused mix of both formats.
Anyway, all of Mani's movies are a coming together of the best. What is his director's mark? Where does his uniqueness lie?
:shock: :omg: Kidding bro :)Quote:
Originally Posted by great
sujAthA has praised guru in vikatan. He has summed up saying that, This movie will be *heard* till hollywood :shock: :thumbsup:
Kannann, whatever I thought of Mani's greatness attributes, you have made them sound negative! We're exactly looking at two diff sides of the same spectrum I think... :cry: :oops: :cry:
Not only veyyil effect but also due to Night 12o Clock effect :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd
Did you enjoyed the climax
Bay :), freeya vidunga! When I see a realistic movie, I want an out and out realistic one. When I see a commercial movie, I want an out and out commercial movie. Avlodhan..
The problem is, he is making movies on his own banner and I doubt if someone else will be dying to produce his movies. So he doesnt want to take risks therein lose all his hard-earned money :lol:
AFA KM goes, I agree that he wasnt *bold* enough in that movie. But there is a reason behind that. Remember bombay, bal thackerey and the bomb in his house ??
And he was really BOLD in iruvar, projecting PR as a not so good guy and ML as a very good guy. And common, what else do you expect ?? PR to talk in chennai thamiz, given the fact that he is well known for his tamil ?? PR did perfect justice to the role though his dialogue deliver was pathetic at times!
These movies are enough to convince myself that he is one of the best directors india has ever produced:
MR, nAyakan, thaLapathi, agni, IT, KM, rOjA and I am adding guru to the list.
And great, yes I did enjoy the climax. There is no other better way of ending the film, IMHO :)
Makes sense! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by kannannn
If that was the case, Mani would not have been discussed now though .. His very skill is in mixing the two ... :)
The dialogues for Abhishek was not that powerfull could have been better.
Relaince conducts their AGM in wankhade stadium , same way film the film end with Abhishek addressing the crowd in the open ground !!!
Nerd, I don't know if Karunanidhi really asks his wife 'Oru kuvaLayil kuLambi neer kondu, vaa en komaLame'. But, fair enough!! Maybe, just one of the many things we disagree on :) .
kannannn: I see that scene as a *cute* scene, if you know what I mean. He wont be talking like that, *everyday*. Anyway lets move on :)
Tale of a dreamer admirably told -- Guru
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/01/19/s...1900130200.htm
kulavi- tumblerQuote:
Nerd, I don't know if Karunanidhi really asks his wife 'Oru kuvaLayil kuLambi neer kondu, vaa en komaLame'. But, fair enough!! Maybe, just one of the many things we disagree on Smile .
kulambi neer?
DrohkaalQuote:
Originally Posted by Nerd
TEAQuote:
Originally Posted by OnMyWay
I go with Kannannn.Quote:
Originally Posted by kannannn
Santosh sivan's terrorist is any day a better movie than DK. DK succumbed to a lot of commercial elements. The point is, no one knows a *complete* terrorist. Who knows, there may be a few good ones like what they showed in rOjA. anbE sivam dialog dhAn. "thIviravAthinA ennaya maadhiri asingamA irukkanumnu avasiyam illa". There is a flip side to everything 8-)Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkfloyd
And one more thing is MR haters will hate guru to the core, since guru is almost a medley of a lot of his old movies 8-)
I have not seen GURU ! But just found this one on the net
http://thirumoolan.blogspot.com/2007...tion-that.html
//dig
Guys
I have created a new thread "Best Actor of the Country" in Indian Film Sections.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=9120
//dig
Agree that dialogues (suhAsini) were very very ordinary in Iruvar. Some parts played up the word-tactics well (like the nANayathukku iraNdu pakkam by thamizchelvan in the assembly and nAn mEdai pEchALaNA by Anandhan on stage). But MR seemed to cut every scene short of its greatness (like Nasser commentiing to Prakash Rak ; unga naNbarukky makkaLai eppidi thanvasappaduthaNumnu therinjirukku. Why do you need to say those lines ? It has been mad amply clear in the scene and in the earlier scene on the roof of the house (with RahmAn in great touch). Later, the beachside conversation to Tabu was terrible in its plain-ness.Quote:
Originally Posted by kannannn
In the foreword to Sujatha's screenwriting book , MR mentions that he is forced to write because of the paucity of writers. The line you quote from Kannathil MuthamittAl is of course dumb. BombAy climax was as dumb as it gets. But it is the same man who had beautiful dialogues in several other films.
Nayagan was one of BalakumAran's finest and right till Aayitha Ezuthu MR has used Sujatha better than anyone else has.That his dialogues are too short is blown out of proportion. He wrote great dialogues in Mouna Raagam, memorable ones in AlaipAyuthE, even Roja (sujatha ?).SuhAsini had much better dialogues in Indira (MR wrote the screenplay, perhaps he wrote the dialogues too ?).
For a moment try and forget the pesky brats in Anjali (it's hard but try :-) ), the conversations between the brother and sister was really well done.
Iruvar is one of his finest films. To say MohanlAl was the only saving grace in Iruvar is unfair. PrakAsh Raj richly deserved his national award. The scene with the flower crown when the crowd rushes away when Anandan arrives, is beautiful. Even the reaction in the railway station when he is informed of Anandan's death. The scene where he butts in (before anyone else does) to tell Anandan that he had objected to his nomination. Even Ais was good - and that's no mean achievement- when she says 'adhE kaadhal varalai ?'
RahmAn was excellent. Imagine the opportunity to recreate Tamil films from ManthirikumAri to AnbE Vaa. Has he ever used ManO before/since 'aayirathil nAn oruvan ?'.
The movie did not raise important question about the Dravidian movement. Nor did it bring out the cultural impact it had, nor was the political situation analyzed (except for nAvalar RajEsh's comment on the the ubiquity of corruption). Perhaps then for all his trilogy (quadrology ?) MR isn't the kind to get you thinking about war/peace/morals etc. Iruvar was simply about the private and public lives of the duo. And that was handled pretty well.
I don't understand this at all. Isn't the director's job exactly about the getting the best out the team. He gets the best out of his MDs, lyricists, his actors and technicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by kannannn
And it's not as if he stuck with the same team all the time.He has worked with a variety of technicians: PC Sriram , Rajeev Menon, Santosh Sivan , Ravi K Chandran and they have all excelled in his films. ThOttA DharaNi to Sameer Chanda (imagine trusting him to recreate the Tamil milieu in Iruvar) . ARR and IR are too obvious to mention. Thalapathy and Nayagan even more. What sort of 'mark' ?